Transcript [EN]: LAP Roundtable: Debriefing Lectical assessments

uh today you're going to be hearing from two of the global experts in this arena uh dr theo dawson and dr clint uh i'll start by introducing these panel members and then i'll take you through the structure we've got for the session all good thumbs up great so dr theo dawson executive director ceo and founder of lectica is an award-winning cognitive developmental psychologist since 1995 her work is focused on documenting conceptual uh and skill development across the human lifespan findings from this research have informed the design of educational tools and technologies that make it possible to customize and optimize learning for everybody we also have clint views leadership consultant integral educator researcher and writer clint holds a phd in human and organizational development with significant expertise in adult development change management top team alignment and whole systems change clint has been working with lectica now for over 12 years as an analyst educator and consultant now we have a lot to get through and share over the next 19 minutes or so so here's the plan we're going to spend around 15 minutes on each of the following sections with a six minute question round between each a couple of ground rules to put in place uh to keep this flowing and going i'm going to ask everybody to stay on mute i'm going to invite your questions after each round into the chat box and i will field and work through those questions as we go we're not going to potentially get to all of the questions but we're going to work with the most relevant ones first so essentially we're going to look at the ldma debrief with the questions we're going to debrief an essentials plus assessment which includes uh lectical vuca and clarity scores uh and then we're going to provide a link where you can learn more about the essentials plus and hopefully if we do all this well and i keep us all on time we'll get to a final question round soon so that is the process i'll be moderating again to try and make this go as smoothly as possible so without further ado over to you theo and clint for our first section uh explaining the report all right i was expecting another slide that had a list of the sections so that people wouldn't know what's coming i think it just got accidentally dropped sure i could walk through that if you like just real quick yep okay so the three sections we're going to look at today uh in these three categories there is number one explaining the report reviewing pre-debrief reflections relating the basis uh basic report to those reflections so we'll do that for about 15 minutes then we'll have questions as we go through that please note your questions in the chat and i'll provide the opportunity for those questions to be answered then second section presenting electrical level vuca and clarity results and growth projections and relating those to the debrief reflections again uh bring your questions please we learn better through these reflective questions so i'll be inviting that and finally uh and excitingly we're going to be looking at developing and presenting a learning plan and again we'll do a round of questions for that too uh so if we're ready to get started i'm going to hit go and over to you theo and clean thank you so much does go mean the timer just started yes indeed i'm going to take over sharing now and ooh do i really want to share yeah i guess i'm going to i'm going to share my whole screen there we go all right so um [Music] fatima or is it fatima how do you pronounce your name oh boy i'm not sure honestly i honestly don't know just you can pick whichever okay well i think i'll call you fatima um um and um i understand that you're here with the um the rex techs the rex trek um uh leadership program and everybody in the program's taking the assessment and i just want to check to make sure that you understand that none of the information that you and i are sharing right now will be shared with anyone without your consent and there is no plan to share beyond just you and me this is really just for you okay it's not i didn't know that that's good to know though thank you the the purpose of the assessment from our perspective is really just to support your development so you know we will just keep the focus there and you don't have to worry about privacy so i i was really delighted to read through your pre-brief pre pre-debrief reflections uh the um it sounds like you actually took some time to look through the report and to really think about the sections i can see that you were you know looking at some of the recommendations for how to look at the report along the way um i'm wondering before we get started here did you have an opportunity to take a look through the about the lectica report slides that are at the top of the report to get a sense of what the parts of the report are all about i did you did did you have any questions at all about the pieces or feel like you know enough about the structure and content for now you know i i took notes as i went through it but sort of straight away from that when i actually got to the content of the report so i think i have some questions related to like the skill hierarchy that i think i'm seeing in the development plan but but it's all really about the the content of the report and less about the slides if that means i'm sorry you're more concerned about the actual content of it yeah so i think i'll i'll weave whatever questions i have into those parts okay that's great and but and if you do you're gonna find that you're having questions we can always revisit that topic and i can clarify those for you as we go it'll save us some time we'll get to spend more time on on the actual um what you have to say so what i've done here is i've taken your reflections and i've done a little tiny bit of highlighting um of the things that i saw that looked particularly interesting to me but before we really get started with me asking questions about the things i'm interested in is there are there any things in in your experience that you really want to point out to me or that you'd like to have to say something more about before before we get going further with my own perceptions um yeah i mean maybe a few things that i think are relevant given what i'm seeing that that you highlighted you know like what's jumping out for you um i think the first thing that that maybe you missed because you didn't highlight it is about you know wanting to practice you know in the context of my work and in the context of my my life and not just you know learn for the sake of learning um i never really enjoyed that i i let me refine that i enjoy learning i don't i haven't enjoyed the processes throughout my life whereby i've learned mostly in informal educational settings um they haven't been super effective they haven't been super enjoyable so i'm excited about what i'm seeing in this report simply because it's not like any other assessment i've done in this to the extent in the sense that it seems to be focusing on learning differently if that makes sense rather than just telling me hey this is what you're like this is who you are this is an acronym that describes your personality or whatever and we've all done these at you know our workplaces and then they just you don't you don't ever get to so what how am i supposed to you know grow from that or build from that interesting useful perhaps but what am i supposed to do so i think there's something really different here and i'm i'm most excited about that i i also got the impression from other things that you said that that um you're you're interested in you like this idea of learning a little bit at a time which i've highlighted here and and that you are also interested in learning learning general skills it's not just about the workplace but you're really interested in and being having a wide repertoire of skills that you can take to multiple places yeah i'd agree with both i mean learning a little bit at a time mostly for me is just a time thing i think i can actually commit to that i like getting that rapid feedback in the sense of am i learning effectively and am i doing something good with what i am learning and then yeah general skills i think that makes sense i think the comment i made later on here is more about skills that are applicable across the industries i can say it that way so i like my job but i'm not sure i'm going to be here that much longer so you're you're interested in staying in management in general but you're talking about movement across different industries yeah so i say general in a sense which is again why i'm excited about getting into this because it seems like we're really looking at skills that that relate to working with people and that to me goes anywhere okay so it is it's even broader than management it's yeah yeah so those people's those skills for working with people are the the real center of this for you right now yeah and then as i said in here you know yes i i would like to and probably should focus on you know my team currently what we can do to build trust there deepen the trust there so that that's all relevant still but i i think that i can again take that anywhere i'll always be working with teams of some varieties they'll always be made of people as teams tend to be well then um the other in the second section in reflection two you you did something that we don't really see all that often um and he said well wait a minute i'm not even sure i have all of these current skills under my belt um and you know regardless of what's next or interesting but i really want to work some more on on some of these skills that you're telling me that i already am practicing hey can you tell me more about that yeah i mean i i have the report that i looked at you know some with some notes um up here on my other screen and i'd say particularly with the collaborative capacity um feedback under current skills if i was honest with you and you know maybe a little bit hard to be dishonest or honest with myself i should say i think i could find examples of doing most of these things but i i wouldn't say that i'd do them regularly i wouldn't say that i do them like the second one down says consciously adjusting your own position on how conscious i am of it i think i certainly do that to accommodate new ideas but i don't think it's super conscious um and then the one i put in the reflections yeah i mean i get that one i like that one testing your understanding by summarizing arguments of others to their satisfaction i don't think i'd do that yeah but i'd like to i think you're doing that at all not really i mean because i assume that means i'd have to check with them which i which i don't i mean maybe i check with you know like non-verbal cues or just some sort of intuitive read but that's just gotta be full of bias and and essentially incorrect and so you're making me think that we might want us to some extent stay initially in this territory and let you really build skill in some of these areas that you find interesting and you feel like you don't really have a sense of rituality or mastery and you you mean in comparison to working on some of the what's next stuff yeah that these might be more appealing starting place um i mean yes and no i like i feel drawn to some of the what's next content as well however i feel like there's got to be some underlying logic to this that i assume i don't fully get which is this is what you know i mean it says right here you're likely to demonstrate these skills and then you could move on to these skills so i probably should focus on are the current skills are more foundational or more fundamental let's take a quick look at the report i'd love to get an idea of which of the specific what's next skills you you think you're then and also you know current skills i mean pick out the ones here in the current list as well that you're most drawn to because when we're building your development plan we're going to want to focus on things that you find particularly healing well i so on the current skills i think the one i mentioned here that we're talking about is the one that's most appealing because i would say i do it the least and i'm also interested in it the most because and again which is the the testing you're understanding um by summarizing arguments others simply because i think that would have the well like i said i'm just interested in it i think that means something like just follow that intuition but i think it would have the most impact on uh my team and then trust building particularly if i was doing it and helping others learn how to do that maybe we all did it together made some commitment to do that so that one stands out the most and the um i think it connects well well the one i highlighted from the what's next is encourage participants the last one encourage participants in collaborative decision making discussions to explain their reasoning and evidence and it seems a little bit different because you know now we're talking about explaining reasoning and explaining evidence but i think it's connected to that current skill so we could build something that connects connects those two yeah that'd be great the skills in sequence or whatever seems to work best now do you think a sequence would be smart like starting with the current and then moving to what's next um i think it really depends upon the nature of the skills that we decide that we're going to work with generally speaking um [Music] generally speaking if people have current skills that they would like to continue developing that it's generally a good place to start because a lot of the skills build upon those skills yeah it's not it's not a hard line to draw you know but there is some sense that but there's some sense of sequence they're getting built on yeah that makes sense to me so we usually recommend ordering them in that way um the other thing that i noticed about in in your reflections is that you've only mentioned the collaborative capacity skill and does that mean that that's as far as you got that you were only able to actually look through the whole that part of the reporter did you look at the whole report no yes and no so i i looked at the the whole report um i took a few notes in the other sections just sort of capturing what stood out to me um so if you think one of those is more relevant or we should focus on more so like i'm a little bit concerned about the contextual thinking because my score was low as i understand it but i started with the collaborative capacity i focused most there um probably because i just did it first and and that's why i was writing more about that as i was filling the reflections out okay okay so we're probably not going to have time in one session to go through all of those pages anyway so okay and that's fine that's right i mean i definitely yeah i definitely looked at the collaborative capacity engaged at the deepest but we may find that we want that you'll be interested in skills that have a crossover into some of those other areas as well so um i'll just i'll just watch for that as we move along all right particularly if you find the one that crosses over to contextual thinking because when we get to that point i assume we're going to get to the scores i do have a question about why is that so low or what do i do about it uh okay yes and we are going to be talking about the sport um in the next section so just hang in and we'll get there you also asked a really great question here how long will it take me to learn everything in this report now there's a question we often get and it's a really hard uh it's a hard question to answer but we usually build our reports to have about a year's worth of activity in them oh okay um but it varies because uh for example in your case we might decide that we want to add some additional micro v calls the learning the learning tools that that we've embedded in the report you might decide to add some more because you're interested in doing those things so it could take longer than a year to get through the whole report and it also depends upon your time and how much you can commit to no that's great i mean i i was for whatever reason thinking that this was something i had much shorter time horizon to do i was feeling a little bit overwhelmed by that um uh sorry i'm just feeling like we're probably going to be running out of time if i don't move on i've got lots of other things i'd like to talk about here let me pick and choose a little or if there's something that you really want to talk about um in your reflections that we haven't let's go with that two minutes there here how many two minutes on this section remaining yes two minutes nothing else for me i mean i think we've covered the trust piece is so important the facilitator piece that that's really about facilitating teams like facilitating whether i'm doing decisions or whether we're doing a workshop or the training development whatever it is but you know working actively as a leader with other people and um and then yeah micro v calling with other people whether it's my team or another community is of interest and that just brings me to just one last question that i'd like to ask you before we go on to talking about the scores themselves and how they might impact our choices okay and that is um whether or not you had an opportunity to play with the micro v call that's in this section yet or or not the clarifying questions one yeah um i started working i don't fully get what why there's three i mean i i see that it's a starter set and yeah i assume i start with number one so i i started to yeah go started going through that but i don't feel like i have good traction yet yeah so this we always we almost always start with a starter set because there's a set of micro vehicles that are created to help you actually build micro recalling skills so you're going to be building clarifying question skills at the same time but we're doing it in such a way that you're actually learning the micro b calling skill as you go along so that's that's yeah that makes sense it's always great but you'll have it i don't think that you might you might not even decide that that's where you want to start well and i i'm not at the place where i feel like i've done it with enough effort to say that it's not the place to start okay does that make sense so meaning i haven't engaged it enough yet to say and you don't have that means you don't have a strong preference one way or the other it doesn't seem like good at this point all right it's my timer it is 20 seconds to go it's just not long enough to do a real debris there's a lot there so for everyone that's uh just joined us we're uh just experienced a role play between theo and clint about explaining the report reviewing the pre-debrief reflections and relating the report to those pre-debrief reflections so i'm going to open up the floor now for questions for the next six minutes uh around this particular section uh there's been a great observation from esther around that that role play nice listening reflecting and responding going deeper with the questions and trying to determine the learning good reflections on the previous reflections thank you for that esther deborah says farmer appears engaged keen to learn and not defensive about the results really great observations mark's got a deeper question that i think we might hold off onto the next section for i wonder does anyone have specific questions around this first section about explaining the report reviewing the pre-def uh reflections relating the report to those reflections um what do you guys think what what questions do you have or what comes to mind around this section what's coming up for you you can drop him in the chat or i can take you off mute but please don't all go at once it's very overwhelming for me any questions anyone i'll go um i'll i'll start the party if that's all right uh so i'm i'm observing this and i'm wondering um is there a process in your thinking that you use to to look at the reflections and and then ask the questions or is this a natural conversation that just emerges through practicing this and being very familiar with it um i'll direct this question at uh von clean please clint do you want to speak to that first i'm sorry i was saying bye to zach in the chat um i haven't talked to zach for a while uh can you quickly repeat the last part of that benny yeah i was i was asking is there a process that you go through to relate the um to guide the conversation that you're having or is this a result of just practicing that and is this a natural overflowing diet is there a structure yeah quickly when i'm debris i'd like to hear that theo has to stay on this one personally but when i'm debriefing it's that that's largely a function of how well put together the reflections are um i think we've all those of us who've done debriefs new report over whatever fatima did some pretty decent reflections and that's not typical or not you can't assume that that's going to be the case um so i feel like if i was if the rules were reversed here i think a lot of the directionality that theo is is seeing as we move towards like the personal development plan the learning plan um link well because the reflections were good there's not a lot not a lot of huge leaps um but if that wasn't the case i would as i'm preparing for a debrief i would spend a lot more time on the reflections and really ask a bunch more questions and get into some discussion that probably would feel unstructured but the aim of it for me is to figure out where then do we spend the next bit of our time as we try to move toward a learning plan or some relevant learning edge it's really a it's a learning process from my perspective it's my it's my big chance to really figure out what this person's interested in how they feel about the learning process and how how easy it's going to be for them to begin that process or whether we need to start five steps back from you know getting going or whether they're ready to jump in and play um and then trying to weep trying to get a sense of a kind of coherent story about that that will allow me to go away and say okay what what would i create for someone with this story um and and usually i spend at least a half an hour on this part on just the i'm just the same here it's hard not to spend more than that yes step um what would clinch and theo say to a senior leader who said i don't want to read the report beforehand and i don't want to do any reflecting i'd want you to take me through the report in the time that we have allocated what would be a response that you might give to someone who says something like that i have a strong policy about that i won't do a debrief unless they do those things okay yeah i i fell into the similar pattern because so two replies here i have never had a senior client actually say that but i've had most of them do that so most of them won't like admit right then like own up to it um but then you find out like that they just haven't engaged it um and then i've tried to okay fine well let's just we'll go through it i'll be a little bit more directive i'll lean in a little bit i'll i lightly qualify certain things but you know kind of guide them through with a heavier hand and then found out just through reflection that it i didn't like it i wasn't good and i don't think it was good for them on average so started to do the same thing theo just said where i just and i tell people i don't make them feel shameful about it just like look if you don't have the time to do this list of things that i ask in my email where we're setting this up then we're going to reschedule it yeah and usually people who are in that situation are people who are being dragged there they're not doing the assessment because they want to yeah and we actually really discourage people from from doing assessments that way if it's possible too because it's not a good experience for people i've had a few examples where you know that i wouldn't say the person wasn't engaged or wasn't interested or made a statement dead like you're saying like i i don't i don't want to look at this i won't look at this i want you to walk me through it but when they show up on the call they aren't in a space to actually commit to it like i'm thinking of one ceo in particular i worked with last year who took the call at like six in the morning from the airport rescheduled that one as well it's like look man i didn't know we were scheduling for a time you were traveling like let's not do that because this will not be worth anyone's time and effort yeah and he was and he was thankful in the beginning yeah these are great insights and i'd just acknowledge that you know 12 years of unpacking these and the forms up to what we have now is is really valuable for questions to happen in this forum and and i think you know it helps someone like me that's new to this stuff uh i understand how to approach a debrief limited time i want to get to one observation from esther and one question from tom but in the interest of keeping on schedule i want to move through this quite fast esther mentioned that she noticed that this was not a conversation among peers but with an expert and a learner it wasn't a coaching session either with co-creating new insights for the client any any quicker observation from from the panel please educational engagement i mean that's astute where we're not attempting to be coaches in this context to do something different and help people build skills optimally and most people who take the assessments want that from us uh that does not mean that people who do coaching can't find things to coach about in in the reflections very often there's quite a bit of emotion that's expressed and that some good coaching skills come in really handy when there's that kind of emotional content to work through but but our intention is that this is an educational instrument wonderful thanks for the very clear insight around that i want to go to tom's question here um that ram has dropped a plus one with and i'll in the interest of time this has the potential to blow out to be a three-day course i think um but tom has said what framing does the client have leading up to this point for example v call might not be familiar would you walk through the concepts that are used in the report before the specific results is the question if this is a difficult question to answer because it really depends upon the context there are times when someone has taken the assessment because they've been told to and they come to you and they know nothing until they actually open the report and start reading the report we've added um in into the report we've added an about your ldma report slideshow that breaks it down and provides descriptions and provides them with some direction about how they can use the report themselves um and directs them to readings so that they can learn more about what we do but that doesn't mean that it's actually going to be done and you will often find that an initial debrief is a lot of the time is just spent explaining what this is and why it's being done and what it's about and how it could be useful the real tragedy is that very often those are one-off engagements when that happens and you never get to see the person again so you're kind of hoping that they're just going to try to grab a hold of it and do what they can with it but in some cases they have a lot of preparation they've you know even taken the vip course in advance of doing the assessment so so that's why we skipped it because i said that i had reviewed that and just to connect it back to a previous answer quickly um our previous question this this uh about your ldma report slide show is one of the things i request when i schedule a debrief and and say nicely but clearly that if you don't have time to review that and then review the report and submit reflections on it we'll just reschedule because i've found that it's so you so easily can take up over half of a debrief just getting tom what you're saying like the basics on the table and then you know if it's a one-off particularly like it's not an ongoing coaching relationship what's the point then like you just can't get into the heart of it i mean there's a point don't get me wrong but i'd rather reschedule and and every time i've i've made drawn that line with people they've either respected it or we've rescheduled and nobody's you know had an issue with that yet i think it also depends on what what the intention is so when i'm doing a debrief my intention is that i want this person to get to a place where they can really learn to learn optimally that's my big intention i do care about the specific things that they're interested in learning but those from me are vehicles to getting to a place where you can become a lifelong in the moment learner and can really benefit from learning optimally but i think that there can be other people can have very different kinds of goals for the assessment and that's going to have an impact on how you conduct the initial debrief and how much background information is applied fantastic time for section two uh so section two we're getting into is presenting electrical level vuca and clarity results and growth projections relating to these debrief reflections um again as we go through this uh please note your questions uh in the chat box and we'll we'll get to a question drown soon uh let's begin over to you again theo unclean fatima fatima i can't remember what i decided i was calling you i like fatima better i think i think that's what we chose um so um fatima before i start talking to you i'm going to actually just say one thing to the group as a whole and that is that very often when people are initially issued one of these new assessments there actually is no score and and there is no report that's embedded in it that has scores in it so that the entire first encounter with the assessment can be score free um and more relaxed and get people really thinking in terms of the learning goals of the assessment rather than the where do i land with respect to my peers um way of thinking um and sometimes uh you know our clients delay the release of the scores for a long time with with the client's consent of course because we can't really boss adults around that much uh so so this is a case in which the entire essentials report is being presented at once which is actually now kind of atypical so before not so now i'll move into the to that section with fatima so fatima we've obviously just spent an entire hour talking about the basic reason and you're really feeling comfortable with the basic report and and all of the goals and and um learning materials in the in the assessment report and now i'd like to take you to the uh the score results for your assessment and you will express curiosity about these earlier so i want to make that we do a good job here um did you have an opportunity to look through the about the ldma scores slides i did um to be honest i i stopped halfway through and like went to the to the scores because i just couldn't i couldn't help myself i wanted to see what so i was this is what this is i'm like what did i get and and yeah so i probably missed some stuff all right well let's let's just dig into to that report together then and i guess we'll just go through it piece by piece sure make sure that you've got clarity about what it's all about so the purpose of of using scores is that it provides us with some additional information that can help us to get a more refined picture of where we might want to target your learning and we do that by looking more closely at your clarity scores and your vuca scores and then we use that information to do some thinking about what your learning trajectory looks like and also to get some ideas about what skills we might like to focus on first we usually try to focus um initially on skills that are weaker rather than those that are stronger so that you can kind of bring all of your skills up at the same level okay so tell me so you got through part of this so there's a the first section is just a description of what the metrics are do you have any questions about those metrics no because i don't see how you can see this actually yeah that that's helpful thank you so i no i think i get this page i made it this far before jumping ahead i made it a little bit farther than this i so i'm going to ask a question my biggest confusion and you can tell me if you're getting to this my biggest confusion is related to something you just said using the scores to target my learning so i guess my question is the stuff that we just looked at like the what's next the v calls that are showing up the the even the current skills those are being how are those related to the scores i'm getting those suggestions because my my scores are high or low or medium okay so this is um no okay good because i'm just confused about that not quite um yes i think i think that this is a something that people find a little bit difficult to get a hold of the actual content of the report that you saw in the first section that we that we did all of that content is related only to your electrical score okay and it's selected basically who's in your assignment would get basically the same feedback in that area okay so it's personalized but only to the extent that it's at your epic at a complexity level that we think is going to be a friendly place for you okay so that makes that makes sense i misunderstood that i thought for example it was that plus my vuca scores and the low contextual thinking score and i wasn't sure then how does that impact what's showing up yes in the vehicles so it's the lexical score that determines that right exactly but but um we can select micro vehicles for you that are more fine-tuned okay and that's where the buca skill scores and the clarity scores come in because it can help us to fine-tune exactly what we want to have in the micro v calls that we're giving you so what what skills we want to target which of the of the mega skills and the report that we're going to do okay yeah so i'll tell you more detail about that when we get to that section so that you'll get an example all right so the next the next slide um talks about the report and where things are we don't really need to look at that um did you have a chance to look at the competency model itself do you have any questions about this button no this is where i started to want to see to see my score because this model makes sense i agree with this i resonate with this um i want to be what this is saying and then i wanted to see how how far how close am i to that um so this this makes sense yeah see my scores exactly okay let's get on to the scores then this is the first way that that we like to show you the scores because it kind of makes it clear where your strengths are so here we're just looking at the average clarity score and the average lucas score taking all of the pieces and components and putting them together and you can see here that you've got quite a high clarity score up there at 83 which is considered based upon this little graph below that you probably can't read very well right now it's considered to be um performance like this a good place to be and [Music] but you can see that in the vuca skills your score is lower and that's kind of just if you're just comparing the clarity and buca scales directly one-on-one however you probably notice that that yellow band that's in there between the the teal and the red that yellow band is in a different place for the buca scores than it is for the clarity scores so the standards for what constitutes an adequate vuca performance are a little different than the standards for what constitutes an adequate clarity performance because these are two very different scales and they're really not comparable to one another the only thing they have in common is that they both are on a scale of zero to 100. so we want to interpret that second that you know the vuca skills scores with respect to the vuca skills scale and we would we would interpret it based upon where that score of 56 fit in in the vuca skills definition and it fits in the marginal range for vuca scores so it's just below the good in the marginal range okay i i think this is where i started to have some confusion and or just emotional response so i i get why the score is lower because i think my contextual thinking was like 39 or something so it's going to drag the average down that makes sense yeah but i think i think where i'm getting thrown off yeah so 39 and that makes sense why why would be lower or that contributes to it um i think what i'm off where i'm off is if you go back one slide to the the colored bands why is the the yellow lower and i don't know what i don't i don't like being near the red but i'll just put it that way and i'm wondering like is that really problematic is that something that you see a lot of am i doing worse than i should be doing compared to like people with my experience you know you know what i'm getting at yes i i hear what you're saying um we do not base these scales on comparisons so 100 means that's the best we've ever seen and zero means that's the worst we've ever seen okay so so you're saying they're not normed like other assessments i've taken other assessments okay that's that's good to know because i was naturally just sorry like is my boss of 50 is my are my co-workers 50 in the red right well you're asking what the average is so so the best we've ever seen in the case of luca skills is a lot higher than the average that we see for google skills okay so the average our vuca skills are not very good as a whole if you take all the thousands of assessments in our you know in our database as a whole our vuca skills are weaker than our clarity scores in general and okay that's good to know that would make sense why the yellow is lower than we're kind of in the middle so we consider them marginal because given the position that you have given your your mid-level management position ideally you would be where you would have better vuca skills you'd be more powerful and more effective if you had even better lucas skills than this so that's why we consider the marginal rather than good okay it's got a little stretching to do here you've got some skill development to do yeah and i wouldn't disagree with that and i i felt that way looking just at the content of the report like we were talking about i mean i felt like some of these current skills i'm not doing but i'm excited to do them more so that jives with what you're saying here like that's what you mean by marginal with room to stretch okay your appreciation skill fits with this pattern you're seeing that you need to bring some of those skills up and and and what another interesting piece to that too is that those are skills you find interesting like you're drawn by them you get it you understand why you would want to develop them so that those that com those combinations are good combinations for helping people learn as if they've got the interest they feel drawn and it looks like it's a stretch so yeah so nice cool that helps thank you so you're you know your your um clarity scores are a little above average from the group they would be you can't see that here but they would be a little above average um and your vuca skills are kind of right in them in the middle so there's work to do and it's not and and this is not something by the way that i think you should be feeling too much responsibility for um you these skills are really not something that you learn in school it's not part of they're not valorized in our society yeah the only way you've built the skills you have right now is because you did this on your own you did this yourself not because you had the opportunity to have other people supporting you and building them over a long period of time all right so the thing i you know that i think that we want to point out here is that there is one score here that's quite a bit lower than the others and that's the contextual thinking skill and that suggests that that might be a place that we want to do some extra work to kind of pull that up to be at the same level as the other skills so that you know when these skills are working with one another they're all working on the same at the same level which makes you more efficient and also will make you learn better in the long run okay so quick question on that then um obviously i saw that and obviously as i said i had an emotional response to it but that for me comes from one of the reasons why i don't like school you know i i don't like getting an f when or a d when i thought i did maybe b in terms of work you know just that whole pattern so are you suggesting here or does this suggest that i need to or should focus on contextual thinking even if i want to focus on the collaborative capacity stuff well these skills are all interconnected with one another in complex ways we separate them out and try to tease them out from one another to just try to build a little bit of clarity around what we're doing and to have a story to tell but in reality they're all connected to one another the collaborative capacity skills for example many of them are prerequisites for doing good contextual thinking okay so we might decide to start with a collaborative capacity skill because that's something that you're interested in okay good so so if i'm understanding you then this low score isn't suggesting that we shouldn't do what you just said right not necessarily good suggesting that over the long term we might want to emphasize contextual thinking a little more than we have somebody i wouldn't disagree with that i don't yeah okay meaning like looking at how i do again i reviewed that page a little bit more quickly than the contextual thinking part but i don't disagree that i i struggle more in that area i've less skill in that area given what it said and you probably when you have a chance to go and look more deeply at the contextual thinking page then you'll be able to pinpoint more of where those areas are where you're feeling like you don't have as much skill but we can't do all of this in one meeting so yeah that's fine i'd rather focus on collaborative capacity i was just concerned that we shouldn't because of the low score all right is there anything else oh great okay let me just two minutes um yeah i think the one last question i had a point of confusion was can you just take a pass at the projected growth um yes so you you have seen these benchmarks and you kind of have an idea of what the score and this just makes sense yeah and i don't have or is landing right at the very beginning of what we call early systems thinking which by the way is um typically perfectly adequate level for someone who's in a role like yours right you're a pretty good fit to the role you're in but but it means that there's more to learn you know there's there's definitely more development to happen over the next few years um okay so let's take a look first at this one so this is showing your electrical score relative to these average curves that we have developed over many years not just ourselves but we've developed with um that we've based on other people's research as well uh and they show average trajectories so what this what this your star is on what we call the e curve and if you just did what the average person does for the next few years it would be likely that you would continue to grow for a few years and then you would probably start stop and stop showing much growth by around age 55. so i bet you didn't realize you're only 30. i didn't i always feel dirty it's nice to be thirty especially when it comes to curves um so so um if we take into account the clarity and luca scores that people have if their clarity scores are high and or their buca scores are high then that suggests to us that they might be on a steeper curve than someone whose clarity and puka scores are lower so what we try to do in the next slide is figure out what impact those clarity and buku scores might have plus why aren't you moving no okay um plus we're also making an assumption here that you are going to learn to micro vehicle okay so given that you have a clarity score of 83 which gives you um oh i think there's a typo here this this should actually say 1103. um so it's given that your clarity scores were above 80. that score gives you a little bit of a bump and we talk about that bump as being your effective score it's kind of made us think of your score as being a little bit higher than than it looked like it was when we just look at the complexity of your thinking um so i'll take it i like getting bonus points little bonus points and so your stars moved up a little bit and then when we take into account that that you are likely to learn how to be call and i actually think based upon our engagement so far that you're probably going to learn how to micro vehicle um if you do and you start to micro recall regularly then you have a very very strong chance of moving well above the e curve and into the space between the the e and d curve now these are just projections and their average projections people have done way more than that and people have done way less than that so you're an individual so i don't want you to feel constrained by what you see here this is not uh this is not a sentence it is a projection it's a kind of projection slightly optimistic projection for the future of your development if you take up micro v calling you should feel really positive about this okay because there's that potential to jump the curve um but you shouldn't see this as a constraint on your on your learning and development it's perfectly okay to grow more than that if you you know decide to really um commit yourself to microbial perfectly okay but also it sounds like really possible quite possible we've seen it quite possible yeah okay so i i actually think i i was understanding this better than i gave myself credit for um so i'm not obviously don't know anything beyond what i saw in these reports on these slides about what the scores actually mean um but i think the essence that i got here was if i engage some of the learning suggestions like the micro v calling and the stuff that we're going to talk about next that i can grow faster so it sounds like i'm understanding that correctly yes okay cool great um benny you're not very strict well i thought uh that was just so great towards the end i'd let us go into overtime a little bit but we're tracking quite well um that was a brilliant dialogue i got a lot out of that and it's really helping me to understand there's a bunch of activity in the chat uh box i'm going to go to a few of these questions for the next six minutes and if more observations and questions could keep coming through uh you know i think we can all agree that will help us all learn so where to begin uh esther has commented that she's challenged uh by having a discussion about scales and scores as opposed to a potential for growth and strategies to achieve more who would like to comment on that sorry i need to actually i think i need to look at that because i didn't quite understand i'm challenged by having a discussion about skills and scores as opposed to a potential for growth i think i need a little clarification about what means esther do you want to can you expand on that yes what i found from being an educator is that if you give people a general idea of how they're doing they do better than if you give them an exact score of where they stand because then they label themselves and it's like the fixed mindset approach however when you sort of use scores as a guidance in order to move people to what something else that they want themselves then i find there's a bigger potential for growth and coming from that perspective i'm kind of uh surprised you share so many exact numbers and then there was a lot of the discussion between fatima and you about moving better and becoming better in terms of the scores rather than in terms of the actual learning itself and growing itself it's a that's a that's an excellent observation we recommend that people avoid showing scores especially early in an engagement with someone so that they do not become distracted from the the business of actually learning to learn uh and get more involved in the scores however there are instances in which people who have been customarily motivated by scores like i wanted to be the straight a student actually find that having access to these scores and having an interpretation of these scores acts as a kind of external motivator and i'm fine with doing that if that's what they need to kind of get into the space of being willing to learn this new skill which is much less dependent upon external input so i think it just really depends on the individuals you're working with and the goals that you have and and you really need to shape this for the individual learners and the program that you're doing and you know make sure that the experience is as much as possible when it's optimal for that individual for that group so qui quickly now i'm trying not to repeat anything that theo saying i'd say 60 40. um 60 of the debriefs i've done did go better or could would have gone better without showing the scores without having this part turned on as it were now obviously in the past that wasn't an option which is why i'm saying would have gone could have gone better and then of the other 40 i'd say it's half and half so like 20 right in 20 where half the people have a healthy way of relating to scores and half have an unhealthy problematic way of relating the scores and i think if we made just those three groups there's probably many more but if we work with those three groups they're very different approaches so it's one of the things that you know in the lab course like where we learn to do these debriefs where we'll we'll try to practice and why we do practice because they're three very different scenarios um i again working with the ceo recently who very much wanted to look at the scores wanted to know about the scores and as it turned out he had to do a little convincing but he convinced me that his relationship to the scores was actually pretty robust and healthy so i was like all right let's get into it then but i would if i didn't have that sense and i'm really just trusting my intuition there that that he sort of had a healthy relationship as as i'm saying i would have steered the discussion in a very different way but one of the biggest problems with scores is that especially developmental scores is that people kind of get into this i want to be higher mode and that actually pulls people away from the kind of slow deliberate everyday learning that you need to do to grow um and that's a really dif that's that's been a big difficulty for us as assessment developers so many people want the score um and and they want the score for purposes that aren't going to really be helpful to their growth but we've gotten better that the feedback in these new reports draws people in in a way that often makes them forget about the scores and and that's our ideal like we really like you not to be focused on the scores and just be focusing on the joy of being able to learn from everyday experience that would be optimal fantastic i'm going to go to mark keely mark would you like to come off mute and ask a question yeah sure um theo one of the one of your comments that you made i just want to check with you because i think this is a potential insight for me was you mentioned that the vuca skill schools enable us to fine-tune the what's next recommendations in the first part of the report and i've never really considered it like that so firstly have i got that right did i hear that correctly um that's the question have i got that right and did i hear that correctly yes you did hear that right it works in very you know it it doesn't work in a direct one-to-one way often but it definitely informs um the kinds of recommendations we're going to make because we you know it is you can you create a a better mental environment if you're bringing your skills up together you know if you bring them up together they're connecting to one another in healthier ways and they've got more connections that they can make between one another so you don't want to leave any skill too far behind you want to kind of try to pull them pull them along so it gives us an indication that there's an area we might want to have more practice in that area than we have in other areas not necessarily first but over time that we want to use that as a focus and watch the development of that skill until it comes up so they're kind of like in symbiosis whereas i think previously i sort of thought of them as being separate oh they're so interconnected yeah thank you thank you i mean you have to think that the the distinctions that we make between the skills are human inventions they're they're they're they make it easier for us to communicate with one another that's all they are it's completely artificial and and but they do have a certain logic to them up to a point and that makes them it makes makes them useful for helping us to organize things and make things thank you i'm going to go to deb uh pasco now i'd like to come off me or i can read the question for you so um what i thought i heard um theo say is that um you know when you were talking about vuca skills theo and that you you know you based that scale on the worst vuca skills you've ever seen and the best vuca skills you've ever seen i was curious about whether that means as you assess more and more reports could that change could you see reports that are even worse than the worst that you've got and even better than the best that you've got as an example and therefore could that scale is that an evolving scale as you assess more and more reports well our early sampling was of disadvantaged populations so we think we've got a pretty good fix on the lower end um yeah but obviously what i'd like to see happen that will probably infuriate our clients but what i'd like to see happen is that the work that we're doing will result in people building these scores more effectively within the school system and that that average goes up from being you know 60 on this scale to being um or that's not what would happen what would happen is that the colors would move so let me just be more precise here if we let's see where's that slide um [Music] is that the one yeah this is the one so what would what would what would happen would be that the red zone would be higher and where we consider it to be good would be up in this range because we've actually moved the whole population to being better booker skills but because we currently don't valorize them at all there's just you know in our regular educational system there's very little work that really pulls in and incorporates these you know these skills um we we're seeing the end result of that that we are fairly weak in those skills yep thank you thank you esther i've seen your question there i'm going to hold this till after the next section because i think it'll tie into the developmental plans uh quite nicely so let's jump into the third section uh around developmental plans uh over to you you're on clint and i'll be stricter on the time this time all right so let me see what have i done here okay so um um fatima you're not here right now because i'm going to spend some time following our engagement with one another to really look at what you've had to say and think about it and straight about what i'd like to do for your for your um [Music] development plan so what i've done here um folks is i have gone through the debrief reflections again and usually during the actual debrief itself i'm taking these notes on the side and making notes on the side but at the after after i'm done i also then go back through and i remember as much as i can about what has happened and i make notes um either in the site on the side or in the text about the kinds of things that i've observed and the things that i the ideas that i have for how we might turn that into a beginning development plan so i've made observations here like um so conventional coursework is not a current option for this person and you know for some people that might be if they have a particular kind of objective that we might send them you know we might say suggest conventional curse work so clearly that's not um likes learning but has a little anxiety about performance due to difficulties in school so might need some early wins so we want to make sure that we don't we're giving them stuff that's really under goldilocks zone and not too difficult uh and i i contrast that to um having someone who is showing all of the signs of being an avid learner who loves stretching the goldilocks now make it so hard that it that it seems like it's really over difficult uh so we're trying to figure out where that person is in terms of what's going to be tolerable for them so we're going to try to hit fatima's goldilocks i'm pretty close on we're not going to try to take her further than she is showing that she's comfortable um and then um i also made a note that that these reservations about the development of some of the skills that we classified as current skills makes sense because she's just moved into the level 11 [Music] into level 11 and you know it's when you're when you're trying to populate assessments there's always a choice you have to make about where you put the feedback and what what we do with to someone who's just moved into a new level as the fee the the actual um feedback that we're giving and the suggestions that we're making are going to be more of a stretch for them and it is more likely that they're going to want to start with some of the current skills because they're still finding those a little bit challenging and aren't feeling that they've got the virtuosity they'd like to have so um i'm just i'm just marking that because it makes sense and and um and and that means that i'm not going to try to challenge it in any way um and then i i was thinking also that you know about the wanting to learn to micro v call and wanting to build collaborative capacity skills i think i think she's particularly big on building collaborative capacity skills that came kept coming back and again and again um and and it's got me thinking that those clarifying questions starter set in the report's a great place to start because those are kind of the fundamental skill for building collaborative capacity um skills and it will allow her to learn how to micro v call at the same time and then i was thinking also that maybe we might try to add something that you know related to summarizing arguments to the mix at this point should be thinking about summarizing other people's arguments is another skill to add to the mix um and then later she mentioned that she thought oh it would be fun for our team to learn how to do this together so i just put a question vip course for team maybe they'd be interested in doing that and later um i made the note that buca skills need some work and the contextual thinking was lowest and that i thought maybe something like a frame of reference recall focused on stakeholder perspectives which is close to home because she's running a team um it might be good to do maybe after the clarifying question starter set so we'd want it to be a simple one you know a standalone micro v call but a simple basic one that would just help her put her collaborative capacity and contextual thinking skills to work together um and then i um and then i thought oh yeah and she wants to go broad so i want to make sure that whatever we do it's their broad skills that she'll see is something she can apply broadly um and that it sounds like she's eager to kind of go deeper in terms of learning about the v calling process some people just don't some of you want to go into different directions if she had been more tied to a conventional learning model i might have spent time with her on the learning recommendations more than on the micro vehicle because that would feel more familiar as a place to start and then i made a note to self consider running a vcalling group for eager clients because she mentioned that she would like to work with other people so after that i went and i looked at the maps for the various skills and you can't see these very well here i can make them a little bit bigger but probably not a lot bigger these should look familiar to most of you if you've been reading the the series on skill mapping on on the luca skills and i pulled out the collaborative capacity map and the contextual thinking map and also the perspective coordination map because there were one of the skills that she mentioned fit better in the perspective coordination map and then i just grabbed little pieces of the map that related to the skills that that it looked like we might want to target and i put together a little learning plan for her that starts with a collaborative capacity skill under perspective seeking clarifying understanding and addressing gaps and that's the clarifying question starter set and then i thought that perhaps the testing understanding micro recall on summarizing arguments might be a good second place to go and i would notice that i've put the amount of days that i'm expecting she might want to spend on these that you want to make it clear to somebody that by the way fatima you can be here now um [Laughter] you can ask questions about this um that the the amount of time here is not this is how long you should spend on this but this is how long i would expect you might want to spend on this spend longer if you want to if you if you feel like you've nailed it in one day then go ahead and move on and then i chose from the contextual thinking i chose a micro v call on stakeholder perspectives as frames of reference so you can see this kind of weaving the stakeholder perspectives thing through first through the clarifying questions so i'm going to learn more about your perspective summarizing their arguments i'm going to demonstrate that i've been really listening and then now i'm going to try to take your perspective and then finally in the prospective according area applying some of this to learning how to facilitate brainstorming so there's a kind of building across skills but not trying to get more complex just trying to to get to to move into slightly different territory each time and giving her getting her to a place where she's got a new thing that she can do with her team i thought within a reasonable period of time would be useful because she's emphasized how important it is to her too or how important it is to you fatima to to be able to work to um bring some of this to work and make your your work with your team more effective so what kind what do you think yeah so a couple a couple of reflections i mean i i saw this right at the top you know and i really appreciated that it was personalized and it's not like you wouldn't have seen that oh i see yeah because right after our meeting after i created this i put it in your report well so after our meeting i went back and looked and then we did the time warp and went back in time and did it apparently by that so what we can do is we've created a personal development plan um then we can put it right in the report so that they don't have to go looking for it elsewhere yeah so what i liked about it was that it's personal in the sense that it's like a pathway through the report and through our discussion um i think that you know and this obviously depends on what we actually talk about in this discussion but i was a little bit confused about all the layers and how much i need to track all the layers because i felt like i'm really just focusing on the stuff where you put the two weeks one week one month like that's what actually feels important um and if if i'm off there i guess that's the question like am i off there like should i be focusing on the other stuff bit more frank with you fatima i did this for the people who were listening oh i'm glad i could be of service because yes you probably unless someone was really interested in the maps and had already been reading the articles you're probably at this stage you're not going to get them into that much detail it's it's not a good idea you're already hitting the you know the amount that they're taking in is enormous at this point in time cognitive overload is definitely you know a potential problem here so you you would actually strip everything out except saying what the mega skills are because you want to keep it to the report and then saying what the skills are and a kind of timeline that's what i feel like i could handle like we talked about collaborative capacity we talked about focusing on that before focusing on contextual thinking even though i had the lower score there um that all makes sense i appreciate the chance to go through it in that way and i i get the micro v copies i saw examples that i started on the clarifying question one i feel like that's all i can handle is just those micro v calls under as you're saying you know the stuff in bold the the big skills and when you're practicing the micro v calls i want you to really feel like it's this is your journey and if if you feel like you want to spend more time building a skill then then i've put here even if it's a lot longer it's this is your learning journey and you're the one who should be in control of deciding when you're ready to move on to uh another skill well i saw that in the in the micro v calls like a lot of a lot of the ones i read not all of them at the end kind of suggest do this until you feel either satisfied or that you've developed the skill that you're targeting so if i'm understanding you correctly when you say two days or one week you know or two weeks you're saying give it a give it a shot for that long before you consider moving on yeah for the most part unless unless it turns out it's something that you're already doing and you want to add some more to it because it's not exciting enough oh okay yeah one minute folks there was there's one other thing that i thought it might be worth um pointing out too with respect to the skill building and that is that it usually works best if you practice a skill until it really feels automatic until it feels like yeah i'm just going to keep doing this now you know it's not it's part of my automatic repertoire at least in the in the first few months that you're micro v calling to practice the skills until it really feels like it's just a habit and the the reason is that skills are not like facts they're you know all skills the definition of skill is that it's something that you can get better at and for many of these skills you can just keep getting better at them for your whole life so if we learn them to the point where they've been automated then what we're doing is building a skill repertoire um and and that that is an extremely valuable thing because if you've got thousands of skills you're automatically practicing all the time in everyday contexts then you're in a continuous process of participating in the development of your mind fantastic let's go to the question round if that's okay um there's quite a few questions going on here i'm going to begin with esther's question from from the last section um or a suggestion uh or an inquiry uh how about sharing growth a differential score between a year ago and now who would like to speak to that nightmare yeah please one of the i think probably the biggest benefit of the scores is that they can be used to track growth over time and it usually takes three or four test times before you actually have something that looks like a growth trajectory to show students but one of the ways we like to see these used in particular in schools and and to some extent in organizations that are grooming people for higher level roles is to you know to track that growth over time there's a you know it's motivational for people to see themselves grow and with this system wherever you are you get to be a grower you know if you're if you're doing the skill you're going to get to be a grower so for people who are seeing themselves as not as talented as gifted as the guy next door seeing themselves as a grower is a wonderful thing i mean it's so much better than seeing yourself at the bottom of the class right so much better so there's a real value in the ability to track growth over time there's also statistical value of course and that is that if you're tracking growth continuously over a long period of time you're taking you know a reliability in the 0.95 range and turning it into a reliability in the 1.0 range which means that you can have very high confidence in choices that you make really that relate to that particular trajectory so if we know that a job um is going to be at a certain level of complexity and we'd like to be grooming people to fill positions that are going to open up five years from now we can look at people's trajectories and say here are the people who are likely to be able to make it to that level in that period of time if if we want to groom them so you know and and the same with university programs this person just you know this person is actually on a trajectory that shows that they can get through this medical program and master all of the skills that we're targeting in these four years in this period of time because we've seen the evidence over a long period of time that that's where their trajectory is going to take them i'm just going to turn on the light so just a quick piece on esther on this if if you do you find yourself in a debrief or you have multiple test times so you have a differential score as you're saying and you um so most debriefs aren't that but if you find yourself there and you and you don't see any growth or you see negative growth make sure that you reach out to us if you need support in terms of how to explain that contextualize that hold that discuss the variability is the the how do you how do you get scores you know to to do that there's there's just some girls can't go through them all right now but it goes like this it doesn't go yes it's normal it's variable but there's there's easier cleaner ways we can help you explain that to clients depending on how you think they might take that and and you know we we also discourage people from testing frequently just do it do it you know i mean there's a year's worth of activities in this report it make it at least a year and in adulthood longer is better two years even more maybe because remember a testing event is just an event you couldn't have a really bad day that day and and and it's not true representation of where you are so you want to give yourself more time to make it more likely that you're going to give a performance that shows your development powerful insights there's two more questions i think we could just get through um one is a i think a faster one from from ram can the scores regress and the other question is from donna based on the report and conversation uh she's asked clients to explore and name the skills they need in one area and get a plan directly tied to the projects uh so perhaps we start with ram's question quickly and then get into donors um scores regress for a few reasons um one of them is brain damage if someone and that can be caused by dementia or you know accident or a variety of things can cause brain damage um one is that it looks like a regression but it was really just a bad day and and another one is and this is not all that uncommon people get real excited and they really cram like they really just you know spend a lot of time learning and they really you know are grabbing every resource that they can these are these are those fearless learners that i was talking about earlier and they'll be really shocked that they got a lower score or a score that wasn't any higher a year later and what happens in those cases is that people are taking on board so much information that they're just not getting it networked it's just not the network isn't not being networked in and so we usually just say to people stop learning and just start micro v calling around the stuff that you're already the skills you're already working on don't don't bring any new content in for a while and get back on to a trajectory learning can also stall if if you do that for too long if you cram for too long memorize for too long without integrating knowledge into your mental structures then eventually you will just stop growing altogether and it will be very difficult to get you back on a growth trajectory and i would add a fourth one that i actually just came across for the first time a couple weeks ago i had a client who took an ldma maybe two years ago with me did a dd brief and then took an lrja so in a different domain different assessment and scored quite a bit lower um it also was a bad day so we had this like dual effect of a bad day and a different domain so mixed with he had an assumption that growth just defined broadly or you know writ large should show up anywhere no matter the assessment and that's not necessarily the case either we do see a difference on different assessments people grow faster where they're learning and that's how it turned out to make sense for him it's like he practices a lot in the leadership domain and practices a lot less in terms of like explaining his thinking and reasoning through in in the reflective judgment domain and that that made it make sense for him not a regression really it's just a difference based upon domain and area but he thought it was a regression hence why it's important to like sometimes be able to explain these types of things and of course there's always the the additional possibility that the electric and scoring system has changed but we won't really get into that here we'll be doing something on that a little bit later so we're going to have to wrap up here i'd just like to thank uh theo and clint and everybody that contributed to this conversation i've really enjoyed this and it's been such an honor to be uh umc for for this session uh lectica thrives on feedback so please do pop in the chat window i like or i wish uh so selected can work to make these sessions even better for you uh thank you very much everybody for coming again uh see you next time thanks everybody bye nice to see everybody