Transcript [EN]: 370: Training Methodologies Of A Natty Pro Coach - Cliff Wilson

[Music] [Applause] hey guys welcome back to the revive stronger podcast I'm your host as always and today I have Cliff Wilson back on the show and as an initial disclaimer I made a mistake on recording on my end which led to us not being able to edit the quality of the audio to be as the highest standard as it normally is so I just want to add that disclaimer that when you come to listen to this interview it might not sound as Crisp And as clear as our usual audio I should not make this mistake again I apologize but bear with it because it's a fantastic discussion where we dig into some of Cliff's programming philosophies that he says and to quote him they're a little bit off the wall different to maybe what you see put out there in the evidence-based sphere or what the Bros are doing or maybe there's some things that he's taken from the Bros and from the evidence-based sphere and it's helping Propel his clients forward it was very very interesting and elucidating so look forward to that chat and as a reminder we are affiliated with math the research review because they are fantastic the guys over there really keep you as a coach or client someone very invested in their own results or their clients results up to date with the latest literature that's supporting strength hypertrophy all those aspects and it is invaluable as a resource so I highly recommend it we highly recommend it revive stronger and that you can find Linked In the bio as well but without further Ado let's get into the chat with Cliff like I said bear in mind the audio isn't up to our usual standard still a fantastic chat cheers guys welcome back to the revive stronger podcast I'm your host as always Steve Hall and today I have Cliff Wilson back on the show the last time was three months ago Cliff so it hasn't been all that long how are things on your end is kind of house I think people are well at least I'm very invested in kind of what you're doing as an individual how's your health how's your training how's that progressed since last time health is much better training is continuing to improve I'm a steady four days a week now like intense four days um like it actually feels good to go in there and like push myself yeah once again um everything is going well The Season's fully underway and we're really rolling I I have um all right I I may I made a post about it at one point but it was like a lot of my best competitors had started to retire you know it's like I I kind of like I'd been coaching them for like you know someone from eight nine years and so um you start to wonder like did I just get a hold of a good batch and I'm never going to be able to recreate this but I have like a lot of really good in fact all four of my Pro card winners this year are first time competitors um and so it's like you know I have like a really good group of young people early to mid 20s that are just going crazy this year so it's fun it's fun I was just uh talking to Joe Jeffrey yesterday who is has his podcast with Austin Stout and your name came up because you were you did a little bit of peaking for us for Austin and my right as well yeah I walked him in for maybe about the last six weeks or so yeah yeah I mean I just saw some of his pictures on I think it was Facebook is where I saw them uh which is weird because and you don't see much on Facebook normally and he looks you look crazy incredible but uh yeah it's really cool to to see that yeah I mean there's a reason you've stuck around so long and uh you haven't like just fell by the side because you know what you're doing and you get great results so it's nice to hear that also you're able to get into the gym and kind of push yourself now because was there a at all part of you like psychologically that found that hard in terms of I guess there's two ways you could do it one is you really wanted to push hard so it was kind of hard to hold back but also is there any part of you that was like you don't want to risk making anything worse so it kind of felt like worried to push harder yeah you know in the early stages of being sick it was like I kind of had like the same mentality that I always I'll just push through right and then I saw that that was detrimental so then I spent years there just like backing off and then it kind of became to the point where like I had to like tell myself it's okay to try this out um but man once you know if you enjoy training if you if you really enjoy training uh the training is the fun part you know I mean like bodybuilding is the fun part so it's like once you can sort of just remove the brakes a little bit and just go in there and turn loose so then it's then it's a good time um because I I I've met a few bodybuilders over the years where it's like they don't seem to actually enjoy the training component of it and it I'll be honest it makes me and I'll bring it up to them too I say this to them like it makes me question if this is the sport for you like this is supposed to be the fun part the hungry part is not not the fun part you know what's the saying I like I've I don't know where this came from but I've heard it said a few times I think it's it's a really good saying it's like I don't kind of I don't body build because what's the saying something along the lines of basically our body build because I train I don't train to bodybuild it's like most of us came into this loving the training part and then it was like oh I can actually do this competitively and it can be like something I actually do yeah yeah I mean I I think all the best bodybuilders have that component of um their natural setting is like 100 and then they have to learn to reel themselves back in a little bit for sure and uh that I guess on the top of your training that's something that I wanted to dive into with you because there's an Instagram post uh you kind of put out and you talked about some of these kind of programming philosophies for muscle growth and you met you had I think I quote you methods are significantly off the wall and I was just very intrigued and I I kind of posted on that I made a comment just being like I'd love to talk about these to hear a little bit more because quite clearly I mean with the the client you had there he saw really great results and uh you have had many clients see great results so there's something good going on and if they're off the wall maybe there's something that other people can learn myself included so yeah I don't know where to start specifically um but I'll let you go and then maybe I'll have some questions off the back of where you go from yeah you know over the years it's occurred to me I've kind of become more known as I'm a nutrition guy um yeah and it's interesting because I do the programming you know people people see the the pros that I coach and the world champion I do the programming for 85 to 90 of my clients um and I always have and I I as I was saying to you before we turn the camera on is that like when I first started coming into coaching the dietary stuff that I was doing was drastically different than what everyone else was doing at the time you know 13 13 years ago and I was like ready to fight everybody about everything uh you know like I'm doing this different than I would argue on social media and in person and anybody that wanted to argue I'm going to argue um and I actually started to do that more with training as well um you may not remember this maybe you will but a lot of people probably won't is that like you remember there was that period where power lifting being Incorporated in a bodybuilding was very popular um I was one of the first people to actually like shoot that down I don't know if you remember but I published an article on T Nation that became pretty popular and it was called like um why power lifting is killing your bodybuilding and um yeah I I had a ton of rebuttals to it like Lane Norton made a rebuttal and multiple people made rebuttals to it but um you know I'm kind of proud to say a lot of the research has started to show what I was saying like so um like in that argument just to give you an idea I've always had this passion for training but I've always kind of felt like people look no put them on here no um I I think that like I've always felt like with training people have the vision on the wrong things um so for example Do You Remember When Brad schoenfeld uh posted uh or published that study showing that um I believe it was three sets of ten produced the same hypertrophy as uh seven sets of three if I remember right off the top of my head and the power listing the power the pro powerlifting group was like see you can grow just the same with powerlifting and I'm like did you actually even read the study when you go into the notes section A significant number of people had to pull out of the seven sets of three group because of injuries and nagging injuries and also the seven sets of three group reported feeling beat up by the end of the study whereas the three sets of ten were asking to do more and I think anybody who's ever been in the gym will tell you if you go in and do three sets of ten you're gonna be like this is nothing so that produced the you know these two groups produce the same amount of hypertrophy and what do you think what group do you think has the room to just add more volume over the course of time and more work um and so I kind of feel like that's always the case with training and then um you know as we were saying I started to kind of get in the mode of argument with people in training the same mode the same way that I was with nutrition but as we talked about I got I had some health issues the last two years and I kind of just got out of the motive talking about it and really I I was I didn't even have the energy to argue with people I was like I'm just gonna do what I do with my clients let the results speak for itself um you know fortunately I was at the point in my career where I didn't need to go out and fight the world to prove myself I I kind of already have like a rolling business of you know proof you know proof of what I was doing um but as I watch I kind of like see this new era of you know and I hate to always pick on like the science-based community um but the science-based community in my opinion tends to have these like Blindside biases where they point to the bro side and you know they say you guys do this when they don't realize they're doing something almost similar just in a different Manner and so I see this new era of science based lifters that I think are just focused on entirely the wrong things um and so you know a lot of my my training principles um much like the the nutrition aspect are really individualized and while they get difficult to talk about I think that um I don't know I think it's something worth talking about truthfully yeah yeah I think uh it's funny that study I literally brought it up on a podcast with Pascal just recently and uh you remembered exactly correctly I think I said it wrong uh but that's exactly what it was and uh like that's also something I've used in the past to like argue against like why like combining powerlifting and bodybuilding isn't the best recipe for the the most maximal progress yeah you might be able to do it but again really specifically powerlifting surely isn't going to grow the most muscle there's a reason why like the biggest bodybuilders aren't doing this so it's great to have someone like yourself who I think sometimes it's easier myself included to not think outside the box like you you have a wealth of experience you think outside the box you don't just take a study for what it is you kind of dig into it and you have your own thoughts and opinions on it which I think is important yeah I don't think a lot of even these um science based lifters I don't think they actually like get into the studies a lot of times they don't actually look at the data tables they don't um you know they just they just read the conclusions um and yeah I think that uh well you know you know it's an interesting thing uh I've said this before but you have your bro group and you have your science-based group and for some reason they treat things training and nutrition very differently um what I mean by this is your your progress right they're going to be like at 12 20 I eat three ounces of chicken and I eat you know eight ounces of sweet potato and then at like 225 I eat this and they're really micromanaging their diet and then when it comes to training they're like don't even think about just [ __ ] lift bro just go hard so it's like why are you micromanaging this aspect and then you're like you know just letting it fly on this end um and then the more science the science-based community lifter Community they're like timing doesn't matter uh food Choice doesn't matter uh just hit macros and let it go and then they're like I rest exactly 98 seconds between sets and you know I must hit an rpe 9.2 you know it's like uh I'm like why are you micromanaging this aspect and just letting this diet Just Wing I don't know why they have like these really opposite approaches to these two things but you know I really I mean like most things I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and um I guess when it comes to training I guess the first thing I should point out is that um I coach a lot of first-time competitors you know as I just said I I I always take on first-time competitors that I think are ready to go to that next level you know they want to go to that next level almost immediately um I'm usually not going to take on somebody that's like I just want to work you know compete for fun um the fun part comes with doing well in my opinion but um I try to you know I give more management micromanagement to newer competitors um but my goal is to always walk them along to become an advanced competitor and what I mean by that is uh as their coach I'm Never Gonna Be In Their Skin I don't know what they feel like day to day and what I mean by that is you know I can't tell them exactly what foods are going to be the best for them uh you know I will give much stricter recommendations for a first-time competitor because they don't know what they're doing you know but I don't know what foods they like I don't know if potatoes bloat them I don't know if you know I I don't know how they digest broccoli you know there's a lot of these things where only they're going to know this so I gotta give my athletes room to if I'm going to treat them like Advanced athletes I've got to give them room to operate right I kind of like make sure I set up these boundaries where they can't go out but then this the space here is their operating space and likewise with training um I can't always tell them how hard they should push on a set and uh I can't always tell them how many days off they'll need in a particular week I don't know I don't know if they're sleeping poorly I don't know if they're having marital issues I don't know if they're stressed out over work those things are going to impact how they're recovering and so me telling them that they always need to train with this certain level of intensity that's foolish because some weeks they have it some weeks they don't depending on what's going on in life and so I try to give recommendations on those things but I want them to learn to manage those things because those are things that I'm Not In Their Skin every day I don't know how to I don't know how they're feeling and so I try to treat diet training similarly in those regards I really like that kind of building self-efficacy in in the client basically so that because like you said you can't be in the gym with them to make the best decisions and calls for them and even if you were there they are in their own body so they know what's going on so they can make those kind of best calls for themselves so but from the start they probably don't know what to look for so it's great that you kind of are there and able to educate them to understand how then to manage those things yeah you know and I think that um there there's it's interesting because you see it all the time in other sports too right college coaches have a hard time going to the pros because they try to micromanage the pros and it never works they lose the locker room really quickly um and so I try to I try to be versatile you know I try to like I try to actually when I coach a client I try to ask myself like what level equivalent are they is this like a the version of a high school athlete is this a college athlete that we're dealing with and is this the pros and I'm a basketball fan so one thing I always say is like Steve Kerr can't always tell Steph Curry what's a good shot he just can't you know he he tries to instill solid principles he draws up plays that has uh that have options but a lot of times college coaches right they'll draw plays that have options but they're like when you get the ball here you shoot it you know and um the college players do that they catch the ball there and then they shoot it um but Steph Curry you know he draws up these plays that have the options and then he's got to trust that Steph Curry is a a knowledgeable um experienced athlete he's got to make those decisions for himself when he's in the game and that's kind of what I try to do in the gym I decided to set up sound principles um and educate them on things to look for and then I trust them to make the shots day to day you know yeah yeah I think that makes a lot of sense and it's almost a little bit like setting parameters to Auto regulate within uh based off how they're doing in that in that moment which makes sense yeah for the the listeners are going to be really interested in kind of what uh what you classes off significantly off the wall so that I don't know if there's anything that Springs to mind when you hear that and when you think about what you do versus what you see maybe generally done out there uh what are some of the things you think are a little bit different that you end up programming yeah I mean so first off I see that um okay the the you know before um 2010 to 2015-ish you were looking at um very load increased focus training due to the power lifting influence right you know if you're not adding five pounds to the bar on your squad every week then you're doing something wrong and now there's this hyper focus on rpe and volume you know and um to me okay there have been studies coming out that are showing uh uh what are appropriate levels of volume you know a lot of times a lot of studies are showing I don't know anywhere from 10 actually probably wider like 8 to 15 sets per week per muscle group but once again when you go into the data tables I mean it's all over the map you have some people that are hyper responding you know some people that are losing muscle um and it's just all over um and years of coaching athletes have definitely showed me that individual tolerance for for volume is so wide-ranging um and I also see that someone's tolerance for volume will change over the course of time you know if you if you build up volume slowly over the course of the time I I you can handle more volume so it depends on where those people were at going into the study in the first place um what they were training like and as far as rpe there's so much individual subjectivity there uh uh you know I do like the Reps and Reserve notion of you know within um you know one to three reps of failure and a lot of research on that regard shows that you know maybe training to failure all the time isn't appropriate but some people do respond better than others to failure training uh I mean we've seen that like Dorian Yates and other you know other guys of his kind like just going to failure all the time seems to work very well so this is where I honestly I try not to program specific reps and Reserve rpe um amounts for my clients I give I give volume amounts but I even tell them they have the option to add and remove sets as they see fit based on how they feel what I'm trying to dictate is certain flows of their training so first of all if we're looking at um someone that is just so if we want to bring up like lagging muscle group for example um lagging muscle group you may be looking at a couple of things one they just might have a little bit uh less fiber muscle fiber density in that particular area you know they just don't have as you know as many muscle fibers muscle cells in that particular area nothing you can do about that right but in my opinion the thing I've encountered over the course of years is the reason that most people have a weak muscle group not necessarily weak strength wise but weak development um is because they aren't actually usually engaging that area and when they lift for that area the tension does not go to that muscle group um and so the biggest thing that I try to do to help them grow is if they have if first off if they have areas that are strengths you just train pretty standard a variety of rep ranges focus on load increases of course effort has to be there and then a moderate amount of volume but for people that you know everybody has weak areas what I try to do then is we need to figure out how to improve engagement in that area and actually get the tension to go to those places and I don't think a lot of people are looking at that they and I don't hear and then when they look at it they seem to take approaches that are are not helpful in my opinion when they try to like bring up areas that are weaker areas um and I I'm not sure if you've seen anything of that that similarly but only a few people I see are really talking about that yeah I guess it's um I I agree with you that the discussion is gone to like I guess it's been there for a long time like failure on not failure or it's kind of like intensive versus volume if we put it into like simple terms like yeah and it's funny to just see it kind of come and go and like you said like there's General recommendations there's a like science-based like or an evidence-based kind of educator that you can give but you have to then caveat it like this is a start like Brad Bradshaw and felt very good at this like this is a starting point then see how you get on with it the trouble is so many people don't know how to navigate that and that's the issue and I've similarly seen with your like you said like some people just do way better with like less or more and it can change over time as well and this is where if people get stuck into like following certain paradigms they just get lost not not seeing the best results and then the same there when people are trying to bring up lagging areas again they immediately normally go to like intensity or volume and like you're mentioning like technique is the thing kind of I guess technique and some other bits that you might talk about is like that's the thing to come to first before anything else yeah yeah and over the course of my career I've come to realize that like what is actually happening in the gym is the most important thing not necessarily what's happening on the paper um and you know of course so first off I'm gonna use myself as an example anybody who's like seen my physique is like I'm very triceps heavy my chest is weak uh it's not a coincidence so you know over the early part of my coaching career my lifting career you know I was like my chest is weak I got to bring it up train it harder add more sets and my triceps just keep getting bigger and so um and so you know when you when I started examining why that is I have like real life uh uh I had moments where I was like oh my God this is very clear why it's happening from my real life and then you see things that Echo that in the research so what what examples like there's a reason that my triceps are big and my my chest is not so one of the things I use with clients is ultra high rep training I do a lot of work in the 20 to 40 rep range um oh they do they absolutely do and they push back sometimes and I'm like do you want to do this or not like you know like do you want to grow um so there's a reason why triceps are big I played basketball from grade school through college and everything in basketball is a triceps extension I'm dribbling I'm shooting I'm dribbling I'm shooting and occasionally I'm pushing another guy right um and it's all tricep extension and thousands and thousands and thousands of tricep extensions with no weight but I'm building that neural coordination uh I've developed this you know these motor units are ready to fire you know what I mean um and so then when I go into the gym for the first time and I perform a loaded triceps extension uh the motor units are fully engaged and all of that tension goes to my triceps every bit of that tension goes to my triceps but then I try doing a press which is like an unnatural movement in basketball you're never pressing anything in basketball and so my triceps naturally engage so then then I see this happening right and I like I go to the biggest chested guy in the gym as a young trainee and I'm like what do I do for my chest and he's like heavy barbell bench press and I'm like ah of course so I'm not gonna set some four to six in barbell bench press uh but then when you look at the research I'm not sure if you've seen the research on this the heavier the load the the lighter the load the more control the individual have over which muscle group is actually doing the lifting the heavier the load becomes the more your body is going to defer to its natural neurological Tendencies so as I put on this heavier load my I mean I've essentially taken out any chance that my pecs are going to do any of the work so um so it just becomes bigger and bigger triceps over the course of time so what I need to do is I've had thousands and thousands of Reps for triceps I need to give my pecs a chance to catch up on these reps and actually like build this neural coordination to be actually a good be able to let my pecs develop this this neural coordination to get these motor units to fire so when I lift a weight the packs actually take that tension um because as I keep as I keep adding more and more weight then it's just getting robbed by my triceps the tension is you know getting deferred to the other areas and so when I have these weaker areas for a client honestly um sometimes people just have poor neurological connections like you can you can honestly spot it like uh I mean maybe some of the newer guys listen don't know who Doug Miller is but if you've ever seen any Doug Miller training videos when you watch them train you see every muscle group just engaging to the max his form isn't even like textbook good but you see he's hitting the muscle group that he wants to hit so fully and then you can see a lot of guys that are naturally thinner and you look at them and they're like man I don't even see that multiple group engaging at all it's like a bicep curl you know it's like how is he not even engaging his biceps not curdle like that so A lot of times I like high rep training for unresponsive muscle groups and this does two things right so the research does also show that even sets up to 30 reps if they're taken to failure or very close to failure failure they'll produce the same amount of growth as you know the 8 to 10 rep range so one you're getting growth for the first time because you're actually engaging it on a set of 30. and then the other thing is you're actually developing yourself for the future to be able to make your heavier loads more effective so uh you know because you're getting your reps so to speak so it's like over the course of time and this is a lengthy process but it's one of the reasons like I have a lot of clients you know and I don't want to like toot my own horn here but it's like one of the reasons I have a lot of clients that I can take from first time competitor to you know Pro and then to Pro and then to competing on the world stage is because we don't stall after eight years of training and I see a lot of guys they don't seem to actually improve I think one of the reasons is that they get stuck in this mode where they don't um you know these High Reps we do them a lot in the beginning and then actually I don't need to do as many of them over the course of their career because then they're they're heavy loads become more and more and more effective with time because they're actually loading it properly because they've developed that neural coordination this makes a lot of sense I think I've heard James Hoffman call them like motor morons people just who don't like can't seem to like control any of their muscle fibers particularly well and I even had actually I have uh my right calf is smaller than my left calf it's still that way they've both grown but Mike I can't contract I used to not be able to contract my right calf easily at all whereas my left I could just contract it at will whenever I needed to and so made complete this is kind of exactly saying to what you're pointing out here is like I just if I can't contract a muscle and use it even if I'm training them both the same it's just not going to be growing and it's really interesting to think yeah the higher rep range is like just intuitively you can even think about that where you just have more control and you can concentrate more whereas if it's heavy you're already like under load and the body's already going to kind of find the easiest way out almost immediately I don't know if there's anything there as well with obviously fast switch muscle fibers tend to hypertrophy more they're maybe going to be stronger muscle groups to use slower ones potentially smaller less hypertrophy available in them and that's where maybe not to say this is exactly what's going on because we don't have good literature support like High Reps train preferentially the slow twitch muscle fibers versus Low Reps to the the fast switch ones but it kind of It kind of lines up a little bit with that as well uh but I really like the idea that you propose like I think a lot of people do shy away from those higher rep ranges because I mean again the research shows they're more uncomfortable and all of this but if you haven't ever tried that especially for a lagging muscle group but and for the reasons you suggest too I think is a great idea oh it's it's um and it's boring you know it's boring and it's it's hard and painful it somehow a man just combined boring and painful at the same time yeah um and so like you know even for myself another area that I have I've always had trouble engaging is um side belts and so like I'll even do something like I'll just I'll do um what I did for a while and I don't need to do it as much anymore because now actually you know when you're talking about getting back in the training I'm only training four days a week but I think that actually I might be as big as I've ever been just because of the groundwork that I've laid over the years um and I felt like I was actually hitting a nice stride right before I had some health issues but like I used to go into the gym and I would have like a normal Training Day right where I'm doing a lot of laterals overhead presses but then my second dealt day um my second day of the week was just six sets of 30 on dumbbell lateral raises and like my first my first set would just be five Pounders and I would come up and I would like so what I would do is I would pause it and I would actually just let the tension sit on my rear delts you know because like I don't think a lot of people actually get like tension on their side delts at the fully lifted contracted point you know it's like usually like a a hoist up and then a free fall down to the ground um usually they're probably getting the highest tension about at this angle right and then it's a hoist up there um so I would actually like under control lift a five pounder let it sit for a moment in the right spot let the tension gather and then I would lower it back down and I don't I don't I don't um start The Eccentric movement until the tension has gone to the area that I wanted to go what six steps of 30 is a lot of practice reps um burned like hell pump like hell but then when I would go do my sets of eight to twelve you know three four days later um I could actually feel it with it with a more significant load because I was you know really starting to engage that area so I mean those are some of the outside of the wall things that I'll do with clients is ultra High Reps and also um repeated motions because sometimes you just need practice at a movement you know and people don't think of it this way but um you know there's a reason golfers take so many reps with a same motion there's a reason quarterbacks take the same motion pitchers basketball players it's reps and sometimes I think guys don't spend enough time just becoming good at a movement and you know some of my clients hate it but it's not uncommon for me to program five six sets of 30 um or 10 sets of 20. like they may have only 12 sets for a muscle group in a in a session and 10 of them are the same exercise but I'll do it because you will really discover some new things by about set seven um because as some of your traditional patterns start to fatigue at step five or step six then all of a sudden you start to your body starts to search for other ways to get this lift done and you start to discover some new things that's that's seven through ten and so um you know and I'm not saying that's like the always they're always going to be training like that but I try to set things up where they get out of their comfort zone they try some new things because then you know a year later two years later then when they're in the gym and I set these parameters and they have this operating room where they can make those calls um they can decide what they've liked you know from the things I've thrown at them and so um you know sometimes I may just give them on purpose a generic sometimes I may indicate right narrow stance leg press or wide stance like press but then sometimes I tell them when I just put leg press it's you know it's your choice um I want you to make that call or you know I may say sumo squat and sometimes if I just say squat you know if it just says squat go with the one that you like and so over the course of time I'm gonna still give them specifics but they're going to get fewer and fewer specifics from me because I've thrown in so many things that they can now make these calls that suit their body well yeah that makes sense like you're so many people are afraid to almost experiment and just settle for the norms and doing what I don't know they see out there and just following those specifics and you're essentially like you said pushing them outside their comfort zone getting them to try things they might not have tried on their own so they can actually discover what truly works for them best and then they've learned that and now you can be and they know what that feels like maybe for themselves so now you can let them go with it yeah you know you know can I uh also share a story real quick that was like one of the earlier moments um you know I used to be and I've mentioned this even with like uh with diet right I used to be um Real by the book like I didn't want to deviate from what the science said about things and this was like in the early stage of my coaching career and then as I kind of started to Branch out a little bit I was a little more reluctant to do it with training um and I was real you know I was micromanaging every little detail and then I started to realize something is it seemed like now when I say my my best clients that I would coach I don't mean always the freaks a lot of times the freaks but not always it was the guys that even the if they didn't have this like initial wow factor to them but there are certain guys that they just seem to continually grow um and I think you can point to a few guys where it's like you know even if their genetics don't strike you as well it seems like they're always just like making improvements and um the few cases where that was it was the guys where they would say well well I followed your plan you know three days and then I had just two days where I was just kind of doing what I wanted to do and it would frustrate me as a coach you know um but then I started to realize that these guys always did Wild Things um it's like they had this intuition of just I'm just gonna do something crazy and so one of the first times that um I experienced that was with a guy named Jeremy Coleman I'm not sure what he's up to now this was like probably like back in 2012. I went to go work out with them I coached him and he became an ifpa pro at the time and a really good one he actually won the Kentucky NPC Kentucky muscle show at like as a natural um and I remember he goes uh I go I'll let you call the leg workout today why don't we do that he goes okay he goes why don't we start with something called The Gauntlet and I was like all right what is that and it goes um we do the leg press he goes we do leg press and he goes you go first he goes we put one plate on each side and you go first and do 10 reps he goes then I do ten reps then we put another plate on and you do 10 more and I do 10 more another plate and then 10 more and 10 more I'm thinking to myself like you think of myself he wants to end with he goes oh we go all the way to 10. and he goes and I'm thinking to myself he wants to end with 10 plates on each side for 10 reps on the 10th set and I go there's no way I'm going to finish that and he goes Nobody finishes it you just go as far as you can he goes you're allowed to like straighten your legs and catch your breath right and I was like I'm still not going to finish it because yeah you just go as far as you can so so I get on there and I do 10 reps and I lock it and then he does 10 reps and you know lock and then we then we put another plate on each side so we have two plates and I do ten and I lock it again and he goes no no you do 20 now I go whoa I go we're adding 10 reps too he goes yeah I said do 10 more and I go I thought you meant like just do another 10 he goes no no you do 10. he goes then when you do have three plates and each time you do 30 reps I'm like oh my God so I'm proud to say you know at that point in my training period I was happy with it I think I made it like I think I made it to like I don't know I think I finished the 40 with four plates on each side and then I made it like halfway ish through uh five plates on each side with you know I probably got like 25 reps and I remember my legs were shaking so bad but you know there was something that definitely felt different with the ultra High Reps and and Jeremy my God he almost made it to 80 by the way yeah um okay it was a total freak but then we went into our other training sessions and I you know we went into like squats after that and lunges and it was it was way Overkill I'm gonna say that it was like way too much but the squats felt different after the very High Reps um I was definitely engaging muscle groups that I had not engaged and could not engage after you know just going in fresh and it was definitely a rude awakening and then I I trained with Doug Miller one time and I remember Doug we started the workout with like uh three sets of 30 on leg pressed and then we went into everything else and it's kind of like I was like man these guys are just kind of doing this intuitively you know um and then it kind of started to all click and make sense you know like um they're they're on to something here and that was probably around like 2012 2013 2014 and then I was like then I started taking a closer look at my own training and what I was doing with my clients and that's when I was like I gotta overhaul some things and sure enough a lot of my clients just started making significantly better Pro progress when I started stepping outside of the box and throwing these things at them and started taking much more of an effort to develop them as an individual athlete rather than just dictating um hey you do this this and this you know that's uh yeah crazy to think templates trying to get templates for 100 reps he almost made it to 80. he almost made it to 80. uh I don't even know like you must have just felt so wrecked like even like unracking the squat afterwards you're just like shaking I think at the time I was probably I mean I wasn't I I wasn't terribly strong but at the time I was probably spotting 350 pounds for a few reps at that point but but after that I think I put on like 185 and it was like all I could man yeah that makes sense do you not see the progress you would like are you sick of writing your own programs or perhaps you need some accountability in order to stick with a plan then it's time to start working with us we at revive stronger offer a truly personalized coaching service you'll get more than just an email with some macros or random cookie cutter program with revive stronger you will be the center of our attention you will receive your own fully individualized training protocol alongside a customized nutritional strategy we created the coaching around your needs wants personal preferences and your own unique lifestyle every single week we delve into your program Ram in order to make appropriate adjustments so that we get the most out of your time and the best possible outcome we help both female and male athletes too seriously change their body composition by adding more muscle mass and decreasing fat tissue no matter if your competitive bodybuilder or just want to look better if you need help with your progress and taking your physique to the next level our coaching is for you it's time to make a change sign up today and let's revive stronger but it's yeah it's it's again whether or not there's like they've just in a sense it's when you get when I think about like an analogy towards like nutrition and you kind of have parameters you're mindful like he knows he needs to train hard in the gym like get a certain amount of volume and feel a certain way within his sessions when a lot of people intuitively or mindfully I guess did that with their nutrition towards the stage I think I remember like Alberto Nunez talking about some athletes in the past who are just like they wouldn't track them like people in tracking their macros back in the day to get to stage just removed some rice or something and they just like continued to look in the mirror and they maybe didn't even weigh themselves and they kind of got there and like hopefully science can kind of refine what we're doing but you don't want it to become restrictive so then you follow prescriptive macros because I don't know a macro calculator shot this out it's like I feel terrible when I eat only 40 grams of fats or whatever and you never experiment oh 60 and drop my carbs I feel a million times better so I think that's right as I said you're playing the role of the coach really really well well and I try to do that you know and I mean I I'm like one of the first things and I I so recently I had a guy apply to work with me and like he was like for the first time ever he was not really happy with what I sent him and I was like you know what seems to be the problem here and he's like I really need like you to tell me what time to eat what foods to eat um means like you know with this training he's like you didn't really specify the rep tempos and this was a this was an advanced competitor he competed multiple times he'd actually won a show already um and um and you know he wanted rep tempos and he wanted I gave intensity recommendations for you know like but it was a wide it was a wide scope right and he's like you didn't say which set to have which intensity and I said you know I said well I want you to be able to make some of these calls I want you to make calls and then I want you to report back to me so we can learn from it and discuss like how you you know like I do and he's like um he's like a coach needs to know their athlete I'm like I'm not in your skin you know I'm not in your skin you know and it's interesting we ultimately decided to part ways it was like the first time that ever it happened but he was like in his application he was telling me he'll do anything to go to the next level and you know I was like no no athlete makes it to a professional level with disengaging mentally yeah um there is no athlete in the world bodybuilding baseball football basketball they do not disengage mentally to make it to that level um you know they're they're coachable in the regard that their coach will show them new things and how to be better but they have to be mentally engaged in the process and almost none more so than training I believe um and so it's like you know I just a lot of the stuff and then and then I also coach you know I try to Define what is the person's problem with their training and until then sometimes if I feel like they're not progressing the way that I want them to dress then I start saying like all right send me some videos I do analyze videos too I'm like hey let's take a look at your I do a lot of looking at back movement because that's where a lot of people struggle with is back movements you know um and so like how do we engage just through different movement patterns and so it's like people are so obsessed with rpe and volume when I think those are some of the easier things to figure out for the individual rpe and volume you know when you're starting to get over trained you know I mean it's easy to tell somebody hey you start to feel tired you start to see some nagging injuries you know intensity in the gym doesn't come very easily anymore um it's it's pretty straightforward you know when you're starting to over train so we just back it off a little bit and same thing with intensity you know it's like we try to have most of the sets at least for me you know a few steps to failure here and there maybe some intensity techniques to go a little bit beyond failure occasionally and then you know within one to three one to four reps of failure um but to me those are the easy things and it's like we have this entire generation of lifters that are just hyper focused on these like things when I'm like man it's going to be so individual for you it's hardly even worth debating you know this guy over here might be able to do 20 hard working sets per week and you can only do seven you know it's like so why are you arguing with what everyone else should be doing like figure it out for yourself focus on that but then you can also like get better at your movement patterns you can try to do things with your rep ranges to be able to facilitate like I like that term you said James Hoffman said motor morons yeah it's like yeah and you can see it when someone tries to post too right I'll have people send me posing videos they just don't they don't know it's almost like they don't know how to control their body very well and I'll tell them like you know say things like externally rotate your shoulders or you know um you know engage your core and if they can't do it very well I'm like oh this is going to be a guy that needs a lot of High Reps before we even move into anything like usually if I find somebody just in General can't control their body very well they're going to get a lot of sets in the 15 to 20 15 to 20 range some sets in the 20 to 30. um and some stats in the 8 to 12 never going below eight you know then over the course of years as they start to get better then we'll maybe put some stick wrap sets in there and all that it makes makes a lot of sense and it's funny you brought up the posing because I I think there may even been a study on this where like hitting some bodybuilding posing enhanced the hypertrophy results that some like individuals saw and I I don't think that's like saying like you need like posing is going to do that for everyone but for the person who doesn't know how to pose very well if they get better at oh I can like I know when I tried to hit front lat spread the first time I was like how do I even flare my lats and I mean I I basically had no lands and it's like now I can flare them no problem and yeah I have some okay lats now isn't it isn't it funny like the um when you're when you're new to bodybuilding learning to flare your laughs is like the biggest deal like it's so difficult to figure out um but yeah I I I just think that um you know training training is such a skill um and people try to break it down to an equation um they try to break it down to an equation and it is not bad it is such a skill uh it's when I say and there's very and then there's varied skills within this larger skill you know do I know how to perform this rep do I know when to terminate this set it gets more like it starts micro and then it gets more macro right do I know how to perform a single effective rep and at what load do I know when to terminate this set do I know when to terminate this will work out do I know when to take off day is based on how I feel and it's like you know for my interest as a coach and as an athlete you know because I I do have hopes of competing again one day is like always getting better and more skillful at what I'm doing and um the the the debate over training equations is um misguided in my opinion you know it's my it's misguided and I think it's it's energy and focus spent that could be spent elsewhere truthfully yeah I think it's uh I find it personally tough and I imagine some of the people listening who maybe feel like some of the stuff you're saying sounds uncomfortable to them I've got better with this as a trainee as a as a coach but I I love like like systems and like programs and like reasons for things and that sometimes can hold you back because you may make what sounds like a good reason for something that sounds rational but it might actually come out that that isn't why that was happening at all you just made up some reason in your head or whatever it might be and the same happens like nutrition and training I don't know if you have someone in prep as an example cliff and if you have that person who understands like okay I have some Freedom here and they've gone I don't know they're like their day was just crazy and their step count was like triple or something like if they're tracking yeah and they're like man I'm wrecked and they go and they're like yeah I'm gonna enjoy like an extra you know serving of whatever carbohydrate because I need that today whereas you have the other person who's like no I stick to these parameters I have to like abide by these rules and then they're wrecked and you have to I don't know try and kind of undo that kind of problem down the line same with like in the gym and making calls they push for an extra rep they get injured because they're like oh it said eight on the program I hit seven I needed to get the eight versus the person no I've got I need to pull back well and you you nailed it because I I would say in my nature I'm much more of a systems Data Tracking person and um I have you know we kind of talked about it I think I think it was our last conversation where I talked about sometimes I kind of try to reinvent my own self-identity to something more effective and I kind of purposefully worked on removing that I'm a Data Tracking guy from my core component and replaced it with I'm somebody who Embraces the nuance and the gray areas and um you know and it's funny because right before we jumped on this interview I had I was talking to a client and he'd gotten to the point where I handed him a program and I do this sometimes um where I hand them a program with sets and Reps and movement patterns but zero exercises they choose all of their exercises and so sometimes I give a bat to people too when they've reached that point yeah and I say you choose all of the exercises on this I've given you some parameters to work with and and then he's like well on this one it looks like you know maybe I should stick with the same exercise throughout to be able to track how I'm going to be progressing because I love the way the Reps were laid out right I said that will make it easier I said but if you choose an exercise that's just you know you try something and it's just garbage and I know he's he's got kind of got that Data Tracking Quorum right I said if you if you choose an exercise and give it a week or two and it's just it's just garbage exercise for you how's that remember our goal is to have good workouts not just track data so I said if it's crap trade it out you know Data Tracking be be damned you know traded out for something that feels right feels good targets the muscle even if you can't track it as well you know um start over and he was like oh he goes that's going to be difficult I'm like it will be I was like you got I was like the point is I said we're we're bodybuilding here we're not Data Tracking yeah you know that that makes complete sense uh because yeah I know I actually had this discussion with Brian minor where we're like discussing the idea of not needing to log book and still seeing great results like you actually the data doesn't give you the results like it's the principles of training hard enough consistently enough with enough volume recovering progressively overloading you can do that without actually tracking anything some people might struggle to do that without tracking those things I would struggle just like to go into the gym and do that but there we see it all the time with guys who are gaining muscle just they just continuously train hard and apply themselves yeah and you know Jeff Nipper tagged me in something recently where he was asking like uh was there the line like calls yeah she tagged me in it and I kind of gave my response and I think my response was very not popular because I was kind of like well you know oh technical failure occurred around four I think it was and but you know a real life application you probably want to go to rep 10 but you know it in the end I don't know nitpicking that stuff I often find it's like you know I I'll put my money on a competitor that continually terminates a set too late rather than too early um and you know those are the types of things like that's the skill you know that's a skill right there that he posted it's like um you know it doesn't even really matter where you tend to define the end of that set or or where everybody continues to finally on the side it's where you define it and then just continue to do that and push yourself and like you know I think that it is much easier to have somebody with a high motor that you need to reel in a little bit because I would have somebody I would rather have somebody that's training too hard on a day-to-day basis and then just give them extra off days or lower volume rather than somebody that's not training hard enough and then you need to keep giving them more and more work because they're not training hard enough um and it's just once again I but I the variance between individuals is just so insane [Music] um and you know I mean I I have some clients where it's like they just live in the gym they'll train hard for a good two two and a half three hours maybe with some longer rest periods right and then I have other clients where it's like 45 minutes and they're just cooked so it's like why am I gonna debate what is best because you know like look at this range we're working in here I'm like some people like how long should workout be I'm like I don't know anywhere from 45 minutes to three hours so you know it's like it you know you start with something that's a little bit more generic with people as a client at least start with something that's a little bit more to generic and then we're gonna just see how it feels and and you know it's funny because even when I was Echo do that client we decided to part ways after just the initial thing and it's like never happened I just told them I said listen I said I know this is like a controversial thing to say because a lot of coaches really Pride themselves on like their startup packets and everything like that I said you know the first program I give you the first diet I give you they're gonna be the least important ones I ever give you because this is just me guessing at what you need yes everything that comes there after is what I am basing off of what I've seen so it's like this first one it's the least important one I'm ever going to give you yeah I think that's that's so well said that's something I frequently say as well and I'm like it sounds like such a bad sales tactic to tell someone that yeah I'm like I don't know you yet like I'm not gonna learn you until we've had our like frequent check-ins and we can start kind of assessing your progress and things like this but like you know it is a terrible sales tactic because people want to be told I know I have the answer for you but what you're highlighting here is like and you'll see this especially on social media it's a terrible place for it where people will have like black and white defined this is the way to do it like I've got the Holy Grail this is how you grow the most muscle or whatever it might be follow this training program and like you've just saluted it like this is so some people will try it and it will work other people will try and it really won't work because and a good coach is going to have options and tools available yeah you know and by the way so it's like I'll I'll throw this out here kind of a little plug for something they have coming up but um I've been working the last several months um I you may not know him but uh with Austin Paulson he's a he's been a client of mine he's I do know him yes he's gotten to be a good coach too he's really put some tough competitors on stage and he's a good competitor himself I've been working with Austin Paulson for years I've had people telling me to take on coaches under anything because I always have more people working and also you know not everyone can afford my prices and whatnot so but I hadn't really had it in me to like watch over and educate education is such a different thing than coaching it's just it just is and um Austin convinced me to go for it and Austin is really good at all he's a good coach and he's like good at setting up systems and so we've been working over the last like several months and we have coaches underneath us now and uh we're actually like we have some people working I have some people who coaches underneath me working with clients already and also I don't coach genpop really so now I have people that can also do gen Pops that are I'm still using you know they're still using my principles and stuff like that but anyway the point that we're going to launch that in a couple weeks but the point that I was getting to is like they were you know we were talking about like sales you know like when somebody applies and I'm like man I'm like the worst salesman ever sometimes people are like what do you think you'll be doing with me and I'm like well based off of this I think we'll be doing this and this but I don't really know until we get in there and they're like that's a horrible sales tactic and I'm like and I'm like yeah I've never claimed to be a great salesman I'm like you know the best thing I'll always tell them is like I'll do everything oh manageable as a coach to get you where you want to go the tactics we're going to use could vary wildly based on what we're what we're seeing but yeah they were kind of like some of them were even asking me you know because I have like I have like four coaches that were going to be having you know work with different populations and whatnot and they're asking like well what do you you know what do you do like what sort of sales tactics do you use when they reach out synopsis like oh man it's not good it's not good at all but but you know what though I think you get the right people that way you know what I mean like people that are really dedicated to it they they get it you know they're like hey this is good it's gonna be a flexible thing rather than giving them some sales pitch yeah I think it's I I've had that where someone will be like where can I how much muscle could I gain in a year and I like well I can tell you theoretically where you could be but I got no idea like actually no idea it could be double this it could be half this like you just until you start working with them you have no idea do you so uh if I think if someone is a promising a result like they don't know I can imagine people coming to you and be like Cliff if I sign up for as your client you like guarantee I'll go pro like if you were to say yes it's completely ridiculous and if they don't think that is that's that's a problem yeah yeah you know um and it is difficult I think that's one of the things too when it comes to training and things like that is um you know I I I've been I don't know since I got healthy I've been on a tear it doesn't look like this I haven't been posting much on social media but I've been working on so many things behind the scenes so many that I'm hoping will have a bigger impact on the industry than like what I've done because I've done things on a really small scale I've only worked with this specific group of people and you know I work I don't work with a ton of clients compared to other coaches um and so I've tried to set things up and I think the thing that is has been difficult though with setting up these things like working with other coaches that work with other populations is trying to instill in people that um don't get married to your tactics you know there have been things I've tried over the years that just didn't work out you know there have been things that um I thought were really good but maybe they're just pretty good you know and it's like if you really really want to be right then you got to be willing to switch to the winning team immediately once something starts to show it's you know that way and and I used to I used to consider myself a training I used to consider myself a high volume guy and then I was like no that's not effective like I'm I need to be a guy that finds that right approach for the right person and um you know I think that there are certain principles that are usually effective in most cases but then we've got to tailored to that that individual person so it's a hard thing to instill in people but training wise especially training I think that's another thing too is with training everybody who walks into the gym and picks up weight they take pride in that and I think you also see it like even the average Gym Rats not the guys that you know we're we're talking to in this podcast but you know every gym you go to that you go to the gym and every guy is giving everybody else advice because they think they've got the way and I think that sometimes getting people to like Branch out and try some new things it's so hard so yeah so that's why I was trying to trying to I I kind of opened up and I was like all right I'm ready to talk training I'm ready to who wants to argue bring it on let's go for it yeah it's like you're essentially saying there's like there's if someone was to criticize some of you were doing and said that it didn't work for them you you would almost come back with them and be like I can understand how this might not work for you but it's working in this situation like there's some principles that both individuals could be picking on almost so yeah it almost comes down to as long as you're not I don't know Bozo ball squatting or doing something completely outside the box like there's a lot of fire purchases that can work yeah and well it's kind of like when also it reminds me similarly when I um like first started talking about doing the rapid backload Peak with people some people like you know that would make me look bloated and watery on stage and I'm like yeah it may like that may do that to you you know um but I'm but I'm doing it here and it's working you know and it's it's kind of similarly um and so uh I think that once again it just comes down to just sound principles with training and um I think people get so caught up yeah it's the classic can't see the forest through the trees you know it's like I think we need to establish the forest first before we even start nitpicking the trees yeah and I think also it's like you mentioned there like at the start of your career as you start lifting you're gonna have to follow some probably quite prescriptive things but you need to eventually you probably most people want to break away from those and discover their own route to progression I I even know that training myself I'm still doing that still finding things where I'm like oh wow like I can really handle a lot of volume here or wherever it might be you just start learning these things as you go yeah and oh and you you nailed it too and that's probably a topic for another day but I think that there are like phases to training careers for how to add Progressive overload is such a like wide-ranging phrase right I mean it's just if we're going to talk about what Progressive overload is it's just doing more work so what does that look like I mean at the start of a training career you know years maybe even one through one through five for sure maybe even up to one through eight Progressive overload and simplest form is let's put more weight on the bar right that's that's the easiest most efficient way to Progressive overload but anybody who's trained over eight years tells you that after a while I mean those putting weight on the bars it gets fewer and far between uh I mean trying to add any weight to a curl I mean if you talk in percentage of strength increase if you try to add five pounds to a curl that's a a Monumental strength increase from one week to the next so you know you'd be hard to find press to find guys that are 10 plus years in the training and really added any notable weight to the to the dumbbell curl um and so it's like you need to search for varied ways so you know one of it may be intensity techniques or you know higher intensity to increase Progressive overload volume increases are always a good go-to right um and then I think that like as you progress even further then it's almost all uh improved engagement you know it's like it's like even if we look at like a dumbbell lateral for guys so it's like start off my career oh I start off with like the 15 pound dumbbell laterals and then I progress up to the the 30s and the 35s and then I'm just doing more sets of the 35s maybe 40s and then you know they reach like year 12 or 15 of training and they're like yeah I went back down to the 25s because I actually learned how to do the right right you know I actually learned how to perform them even better so it's like even though the weight is lighter if the tension is going to that Target muscle group you have progressively overloaded because the muscle doesn't know how much weight is on the bar it only knows how much tension is on and so it's like if you can put more tension there so it's like there's definitely this pattern over the course of a career you know it's like Progressive overload is adding weight Progressive overload is adding intensity and volume Progressive overload is improving exercise uh execution to increase tension yeah yeah someone who immediately comes to mind is someone like Jeff Alberts you just watch Alice like how he lifts it's just so mechanical so thought out he's clearly got like the tension exactly where he wants it to be but he probably say like his loads didn't change that much in those last few years but he still managed to gain because he's just controlling the load so much better like you said putting the tension where he wants it to be um yeah Cliff this has been a great chat I don't know if there's anything else you have on mind that you wanted to share about kind of training but I think you kind of explained kind of your philosophies here in terms of like thinking outside the box a little bit not being set to paradigms and kind of seeing trying some different things especially like the high rep ranges makes complete sense that people be able to be more able to control the loads with the muscles they're trying to kind of work and I think if people are listening they're like I've never tried that it's like it's it's an evidence-based prescription as well like you said High rep but load training uh sorry low low training as long as you train hard enough um so yeah you have to push through the discomfort but as long as you do that it's still a very evidence-based approach yeah yeah and and like you said it is because there is research supported support it in terms of not only the effectiveness of high rep training assuming the intensity is high enough but also the research showing that you can uh be more mindful about what muscle group is actually um taking on the tension with a lighter loads as opposed to heavier loads so it's it's definitely still science it's rooted in science it's not like I'm just like throwing it at the wall and see what sticks I think it's just a um a matter of once again just trying to break out of the box of what people think but no I appreciate you letting me come on because like I said it you know now that I'm feeling feisty again I'm ready to go out there and talk about the talk about the controversial things in our industry you know like High Reps but to be honest they there is a little bit of controversy here because um Mike Mensa seems to be taking uh like hold of people again for some reason I think it's more on Tick Tock at least that's what I'm hearing is happening so yeah maybe uh the we are adding to the controversy here and uh yeah you mentioned you've got your project that's going to be launching in a few weeks so by the time this comes out you'll probably be live where you'll have that coaching service available um where should people yeah if they want to learn more about that yeah you know I've got a couple of things coming out if you don't mind me doesn't understand I I am so I've got I've never really worked with genpop people and not everybody can afford my rates so I did I'm gonna be taking on a few coaches underneath me me and Austin Paulson are doing that together we will also oversee what they're doing but um and actually I'm happy to say uh one of the coaches is uh my ex-wife Katie uh Katie and I have always stayed close even after uh we aren't married anymore she's a great coach and I got her to come back to coaching so I was happy about that um and she's she's you know she's produced great results for like genpop people so we wanted to do that also for like make coaching affordable but kind of like still the principles that I use with people and then um actually towards the end of the year I mean I know a lot of people are doing it now but I'm going to be doing a training app kind of based around some of these things once again for also even a lower price point because I realized once again not everybody can afford a coach um and so you know working on some of these things will kind of be the principles will be based off of a lot of the programming that I use so those are two things that in particular I'm like excited about them coming out because um I do you know I spent quite a few years just coaching here when I wasn't feeling well and I was doing great with my clients and everything but I've always kind of had that want to like still have a bigger impact across the industry and you can only do that working you can only do that so much working with you know 50 to 60 people at a time so uh you know I'm looking forward to getting those things out there and um the biggest thing uh for both of those things when they come out I mean my Instagram is always going to be up to date with the things I'm working on but also my website uh teamwilsonbb.com um and uh I'll have links to everything on there fantastic yeah I'll make sure that's all linked below and uh that sounds uh very exciting especially the app as well like you said there's there's a lot out there but it's nice to have the choice and even like you said for someone who's interested in learning more about your training principles but can't necessarily afford coaching it's a great way to get that experience uh there so awesome I'll make sure that's linked below thank you again Cliff for your time and we'll talk to you soon take care losing weight fast while maintaining muscle mass sounds too good to be true doesn't it it isn't though it's reality and we know how to do it and we will help you achieve this the mini cup movement is an eight week fat loss program to make you lose a huge chunk of that while maintaining muscle mass at the same time we will support you from the beginning to the end so that you see the results you would like to and come out of it much stronger you'll receive a fully automated spreadsheet that is based on your nutritional needs you can choose between six different male and female training templates over 30 videos will guide you through each and every single step of the mini cut so that you're getting the most out of your journey and that you always know what to do but the best thing is that you can start whenever you want the mini cup movement is open 24 7. so if you want to learn more or you're ready to sign up hit the link in the description below so let's revive stronger together