Transcript [EN]: Performance Psychologist: The Hidden Things That Are Keeping You From Being a High Performer

The most constricting factor for your potential is the fear of people's opinions. That's why when people go on stage, their heart starts to pound. It's readying to fight or flight. That's not right. You can completely undo it, but you can't do that unless you have the psychological skills. And I don't think we're aware of how an audience can experience us or identify. >> Um, boy, we're getting vulnerable today. >> When pressure hits, champions rise or fall by mindset. Dr. Michael Jer has trained Olympic athletes and Fortune 100 leaders. And he's here to reveal how mastering your mind is the key to mastering your life. There's only three things that we can train as humans. We can train our technical skills, we can train our body, and we can train our mind. If you invested in training the mind, it is a massive transformational experience. What I've learned from the best in the world is All right, Michael, it's good to be with you again. One of my favorite conversations of all time, and I truly mean that. I I love where we're going to go today. But to get started, put you on the spot. You can only pick one word. They can change this five minutes from now. So there's no pressure. But only one word >> to describe you as a professional right now. >> Contemplative. >> Contemplative. Okay. Tell me more about that. >> I'm thinking about um multivariables in mult in complicated environments of high performance. And when I was younger, like most of us, I had an idea of how it works. and you know, you just got to get these handful of things right and then it works. You know, we're we're all dealing with something. We're all carrying around stuff that's a little bit heavier than we show. >> We all have some scar tissue, some baggage, some hopes and dreams. And it's that unique broth that is way more complicated in this space of high performance than I once appreciated. >> Yeah. So, I'm definitely in a contemplative space where um there's a a discernment tumbler. Like the things that I once knew I'm re-examining. Um I'm way more interested in all the complexities of our modern world and how it's affecting us downstream. I don't think the world is safe. I don't think the world is designed for my success. I think it's actually quite thorny and prickly. um it's complicated and so being contemplative, being aware of like the variables at play is uh it's a good place right now for me. >> Okay, we're going to hit on that in a in a few minutes. I love that answer. Is it a function of age and experience or is it intentional observation that's leading you to this current state >> or a combo of all three? >> Yeah, I think it's Yeah, it's you're right. It's an interactionist approach probably for most things, but um it's mistake making that really forces you to go, whoa, >> you know, and it's when you when you think something is is best served this way and it zags away from it and it works out even better. It's like, whoa. Or it works out worse, you know? So, it's pain is the reason I've come to learn pain is the reason we change. >> Uncomfortableness is how we grow. And so it's modulating those two as frequently as we possibly can. Being in a in a state of not I'm not talking about chronic physical or emotional pain, but like acute moments where it's like, whoa, what whoa this is this is a lot. >> Yeah. >> And then uncomfortableness is like that feeling when you're at your messy edge and you're sorting out how to navigate your thoughts and emotions and your technical skills at that messy edge. That's how we grow. But pain is why we change. It is something that we do with elite athletes um Olympics Olympic athletes. >> Every four years we call it a quad. One of the first questions at the beginning of the quad is what do you think is going to be the the time or the skills or the thing that is going to be podium caliber in four years? So we use we we create a forcing function for them to imagine what success four years from now would look like. And then most of the times those things scare people. >> One of our one of our coaches at Finding Mastery, she's a one of the most winningest ever in her sport. Ka Tursky is her name. And we did this. I was fortunate enough to be able to work with her when she was an Olympian and when she was leading the field. She was a frontier pushing person. >> And she's a um she does like back flips and stuff on skis like >> wow. >> Big volume, high velocity, big danger. She's paid the price physically in numerous ways. And she's also been afforded deep insight and richness about what it takes to put yourself at that emotional, physical, messy edge and sort it out. And one of the things she said when we're doing this exercise, this four-year arc, is she said she named the trick or the skill that she thought was going to be podium. And let's say they're doing 360s at the time. She's like, I think they're going to do uh 1440 rotations. like it's 3x what she was doing. You think you're going to be able to get that done? She goes, "Oh my god, I'm terrified." >> So, just using your imagination can create barriers. >> Yes. >> And if you don't know how to work with that fear of the thing that you see that could be possible because it's it's over your skis. It's like bigger than you thought you should be or could be doing that's safer. man, if you don't work with that belief system and your imagination, that intersection, I don't think we'll ever become what we're capable of becoming. Agree. It's funny about that messy edge because >> there's two components. Let's let's kind of open this up a little bit. Um, one is the messy edge means that >> there's an unlock waiting to happen. >> Yes. >> In that messy edge, >> and it's also where you could fall into a thousand pieces. And it is such a tender, vulnerable, risktaking experience. You can pull back from it. You could you could work to get right up to it and then pull back because it's overwhelming. You could taste it for a moment and then kind of, you know, swallow it down and like pull it back. But if you can stay in it just a little bit longer where your heart rate kicks up a little bit where you know there's something you want to say but saying it actually means something more than what you want or doing something and if you make a mistake people maybe are watching and it's if you could just stay in that space a little bit longer a little bit longer than yesterday a little bit longer you end up opening the aperture of being a little bit more comfortable it no one's comfortable in this space >> that's correct Right. And by the way, to be concrete, the messy age happens in the living room with intimate conversations. It happens, you know, on the sport field. It happens in boardrooms. It happens all the time. Hallways happens all the time. But what makes it the messy edge is what I would defer to as this imaginary danger line that you've developed and I've developed. We all have this line where on the other side of that line, it's dangerous. On this side, it's safe. And you have created and I've created my own danger line. But we create that danger line based on all of our past experiences, based on our predictions of what could happen later. We put that danger line. And if you're not careful over time, the danger line starts to get closer to you. >> Now you're living in a tighter bubble. Now you're more anxious. Now you're more overwhelmed. But with good psychological work, deep dive stuff, becoming more aware of how you work, how your thoughts work, how your emotions work, and then spending a little bit more time in that messy edge. You push the danger line out. Now you can breathe. Now you can kind of be at home with yourself wherever you are cuz that danger line's over there. But if you don't practice working from your own internal psychology, if you don't practice really digging in and knowing how you work, that danger line creeps up on you. And it if I wouldn't have done this work, I was my freshman year in high school. I was waking up in the morning at my sink brushing my teeth with my hand shaking. My hands were shaking and I didn't know what it was, but I knew it wasn't normal. It was anxiety, general anxiety. I was worried about just about everything that could go wrong. And it wasn't until someone kind of shoulder tapped me like, "Hey, are you okay?" I was like, "Yeah, I'm fine." That's what we do, right? Psychology is for the weak. Psychology is like our grandparents and great-grandparents and even our parents' generation said, "Hey, psychology is for those people that don't have it together. Toughen up. >> Harden up." Yeah. >> Figure it out. Talk to me. >> Talk to you. like you're you're not you're not the one that has the insight that you know could help. So we've been handed this taboo about psychology. >> Yeah. >> And it wasn't until somebody until I got to that place where general anxiety was part of my everyday experience and it still wasn't enough when somebody said, "Hey, I think you should get some help." Still wasn't enough. That danger line was collapsing on me. what was behind the anxiety or what were the factors the environment experience that that was driving that >> I will answer that with great uh articulation that question is the right question and that's the right question for anyone listening is what is underneath that is creating this belief system about what could happen in your life if you just work on the surface like just be great with your selft talk it's not enough. >> No. >> How about it? It's not enough. It's just not It's It's necessary to be great with your inner dialogue. It's necessary to understand how to regulate and work with emotions. Necessary, but not sufficient. If you don't go deep and wrestle with the dragon that scares you, if you don't go and dig into the corners that you're trying to keep the light out of, if you don't go and examine some of the hurts that you that you're carrying forward, then you're always going to be protecting those hurts. And that is the golden shackle that we can all feel. Okay. So, I'm just saying that that is the right question. What is mine? My dad was a alcoholic drug user. Um, my mom was codependent and I love my parents. They're still alive. >> Um, they're likely listening right now and I love them. Um, I am who I am in part because of my experiences. I wouldn't trade any of them. But what I didn't know as a kid, I didn't know what was a cover story and what was real >> because that's what those family systems do. So, it is not lost on anyone here in this in this conversation that I did. I I was uncertain about what was honest. Again, I love my parents, okay? But I was that was my experience. So, I went to the most dangerous forcing function environments known to human performance because they force you to be honest with your psychological skills, your technical skills, and your relational skills. And if those any of those three are substandard, people get radically hurt, sometimes die. Folks, you can't finish the year strong if you're running on fumes. And I've been there trying to push through the holidays with work, family, travel, and wondering why I'm so exhausted all the time. And I absolutely believe that how I sleep the night before determines a lot of how I perform the next day. And that's why I love my Avocado Green mattress. Avocado is all about sleep. That helps you show up better for your work, your family, and yourself. Their mattresses are handcrafted in the USA with certified organic materials. No toxins, no junk, just real comfort. And it takes less than two minutes to take their online sleep quiz to find the perfect mattress for you. 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Now, I have some context, but tell our audience what might be happening here. >> This was coach Carol and I. Um, this was right around the kind of 2014 15. I think we were on our way to our second Super Bowl and one of the things that we would do is pregame is we would we would connect and we check in. Coach Carol is an extraordinary coach. When you think about above the line coaching and below the line coaching, above the line coaches are like they see your potential and they're going to hold the standard. doesn't mean it's easy, but it is it is positioned as what could be great and I want to partner with you to help you do that. I'm going to be a great teammate. D below the line is like constantly reminding you of what you're not capable of. Okay. So, he's an above the line coach. And in this moment, what we're doing is um I'm kind of smiling. He's kind of >> got an intense look. >> Yeah. Um, I think what we were talking about in this moment was um, the vibe and we're laughing about how coaches come up to us all the time. So, what do you think? How do you what do you what do you feel about the team? Both of us like, uh, we can't tell, you know, but what the joke is like you get a feeling of what's this is pregame. You get a feeling, but the joke of the joke for us is like, well, what do you think of that person's framework? I can't tell how he's going to do today, but what do you think of his framework? Would you bet on his framework? Would you bet on his psychological sturdiness to deal with >> the irritating, overwhelmingly messy edge? Would you bet on the framework or not? >> And so this I think we're laughing about that piece because that that's what was going on. >> All right, then. So I'll take that from you so you don't have to hold it. So this was something that Pete Carol said about your working relationship. We work together in fostering an environment where people can collectively explore the upper reaches of their capabilities together. >> Now, I just love that. I It gives me honestly goosebumps. >> How does a leader change a culture? Whether it be they're now sales leader of a team or they're leading the company, whatever the position leadership they have, how do you change a culture tactically? It's not an easy answer. >> I know. >> Um because culture is the artifact of relationships. >> So it's the way we do things here. The most powerful thing that a person can do. Um we'll do a part one part two of it. Part one is they need to walk the talk. They need to be the epitome of the culture that they want to see and feel. So, it does require the imagination like, okay, we we brought in a consulting firm or we had an off-site board meeting and we've got the most important words to describe our culture and they're good words. I haven't met a culture that has bad words, you know, like they're all good words. You need to be the walking, talking, rolling, whatever. You need to be the epitome of that. And so, you have to talk the walk. You have to walk the talk. What does that mean? is that um let's just do the old kind of definition of integrity is that you know how are you when people aren't looking? How are you when it's intense in the environment? If you're a certain way, meaning about those words on the wall over a glass of wine or great revenue pro uh um you know numbers coming in, financial numbers coming in versus when you're being handed like a difficult situation that you've got a riff and there's a difference between you. You are not trustworthy. you are not credible to be about it. So you have to do the internal work to be about those words and then you are the biggest pebble in the pond. So from that you begin to impact all of the relationships. That's part one. Part two is you have to really care about your people. You have to be a great teammate to them. You have to understand um what gets in the way, what their dream and aspirations are. You have to understand that context and be a teammate to help them hold that standard. You can't hold the standard if you don't know how to support them. You can't hold a standard to challenge them if you're not doing it yourself. So part one is do the work. Okay. Part two is be a great teammate. >> Love that. I wrote down model the way care for people. >> Yeah. Let me actually add one more contextual piece to the last question is that I'm unsatisfied with the simplicity that I just shared. >> Okay. >> I'm unsatisfied because I left one thing off that I think is a necessary motion to put in place. I know who I want to be. I've done that quiet work to know like the person that how I want to operate in calm environments and intense environments. I know that but that just seeing it and having clarity is not enough. I need to also invest in my psychological skills. Okay, so that was part one like invest in your psychology if you will. Part two is care about other people but also pay the same investment in training forward. So this is what Sati Nadella at Microsoft has challenged us to do is to train the mental skills required to be your very best in high stress environments. Train the same way you train world-class athletes. Can you train our employee base for the same thing? That motion is so overlooked as like uh oh well what do you mean get a coach? No, it's putting in the rhythm of the business psychological skills training just like we put in the rhythm of business of elite sports psychological skills training. So it's not tabooed, it's not weird, it's not extra work. It's in the rhythm of the business. So that in the moment of high stress, you have invested in those psychological and emotional capabilities. If you haven't invested in them, you're just going to get kind of what you always got, >> which is a tighter version of you. Yeah. A little bit smaller version, a little bit more anxious, frustrated, or >> alone version of you. But when you invest in psychology, >> a grit large across a culture, >> now you've got the aperture is opened up more. There's more buoyancy in the organization. You can handle trade winds way better. >> Yeah. So true. You know, I'm glad you you circled back because my experience is I was aware of of how I was coming across and I'd get negative feedback and I would kind of deal with it. >> And I think we've made mental health such a buzzword that we forget that the key to mental health in my untrained opinion is emotional health. The breakthrough for me was when I realized that the very things I was there to deal with >> were coming from a moment where my dad looked at me at 14 with a bad report card and yelled at me, >> raged >> and put and I love my dad and stuck his finger in my face and said, "If you don't fix this, >> you're going to pump gas the rest of your life." And what I heard was, "I don't think you have what it takes to be successful and you're going to blow it." And my therapist pulls out of me, "You've been living your whole life from that moment and on with this narrative. I'll show you." And I just, it flattened me. And so the process from that point on through the hard work was to learn how to actually identify my emotions and actually feel them to the fullest. >> Yeah. >> At which point my behavior had a chance to change. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Cool story. You and I have a different story, same type of experience is that um I was struggling in it was third grade and I was struggling uh on some vocabulary kind of stuff, spelling and my dad was frustrated with me and um I called my mom in or my mom was there with me and then uh she was frustrated she called my dad and this did not help the situation and then so he says let me try and so he asked me say say some things I clearly couldn't spell or say, you know, just 30 seconds earlier. And he leans over kind of like not over me, but he he spoke over me and he said, "Maybe he's just stupid." >> Oh, Michael. >> Yeah. How about it? And so, think about like where I was. So, go back to like question one about contemplative is that for most of my young life, I was like, "No, I'm not stupid. I'm going to show them. And so I I put on a suit, you know, a a character suit that I'm going to I'm going to be seen for something other than stupid. >> I identify with that so much. It was performance for me. >> So it was performance for me, too. >> Yeah. >> And it was more athletic performance than anything else at at a young age. But >> but I did everything I can to not be exposed for being stupid. I barely went to high school. >> Wow. I barely barely got out of high school because you know what? God help me if I would applied myself. And actually they were right. So I took the I I totally know this playbook which is like just play it cool, do the bare minimum. Everyone will say you have lots of potential if you just work harder. But the reason I wasn't working harder is because I didn't really want to know if dad was right. >> Yes. When we think about psychology, there's two main variables that we're trying to sort out is like how do you work with your thoughts, that kind of narrative that's happening, and how do you work with your emotions? And it's amazing to me how the interaction between the two is so potent. It's running the whole thing. Emotions flat out are running the system. And if you're not aware of your emotions nor have the skills to work with the emotions, they run the show. So the brain is designed, it's got a survival bias, as you know, plenty of folks will talk about. That means that this three pounds of tissue is scanning the world to find all the dangers. And that's a dictum. If you if that hardware is going to run the show, we're going to live in a pretty dangerous world and a pretty limiting experience because that danger line is kind of right in front of us at all times. We do need to invest in our psychology so that we can um program so that we can optimize the brain's dictim and that's where all mental skills training lives or psychology investment lives. But I the the thing that I'm about because I lived this way for much of my life is that if emotions are really running the whole show, how do I get better at them? Well, I think most people that I've come to work with, whether the world's best or not, is couldn't easily articulate the difference between a feeling and an emotion. >> And I'm not going to ask you, but I'll just answer the question that emotions are physical. Zero judgment about the thing. It's something you can observe. your your temperature heats up, your eyes dilate, your pupils dilate, your um breathing rate changes, lungs, you know, uh speed of breathing changes like a heart rate changes. There's all these physical things that take place. Those are all emotions. Okay? The way you describe or put meaning to them is what a feeling is. Why is emotion pop up? Because you've got a belief system about something. Say public speaking, which you know very well. For most people, they'd rather it's one of the most dangerous things in their life. Um, one of the most dangerous things is being relegated out of the crowd. Yes. Relegated out of the the the off the team or the, you know, the tribe. So, >> is that rejection? >> Yeah. So the fear of rejection, even the potential hint at it, triggers an ancient part of the brain that if I'm pushed to the edge or if I'm relegated out of the tribe, that's a near-death sentence because the wild is too wild. So belonging means safety. So, when you're on stage, when you're backstage and you know that you're about to walk up five steps to get onto a platform and there's smart, learned people that are um trying to see if you're if you're one of them or not, if your thoughts and ideas are acceptable to them or not, what's being exposed is that um the brain is going, am I being rejected? Am I being rejected? Are they liking me? Are am I being accepted? that rejection acceptance thing is so powerful and so potent that it becomes overwhelming. And we did a bunch of research on this. You know, we called this the the most constricting factor for your potential is the fear of people's opinions. >> That's right. You call it phobo. >> FO. This is a direct quote, by the way. You said uh this is from your book. It's a hidden epidemic and this may be the single greatest constrictor of human potential. Our concern with what other people think about us has become irrational, unproductive, and unhealthy obsession in the modern world. I wanted to read that because I think you so capture what's happening right now. Certainly young people. And I'm not immune to it because social media matters in my work. >> Yeah. >> And at 51, what do people think of me? Why didn't they like this post? >> Yeah. It's wild, isn't it? >> It's crazy. It's almost inescapable. So, let's stay on that line. How does a healthy human take that natural fear of rejection, live into it and overcome it. Is it possible and how? >> Yeah, it's super thoughtful question. The answer is yes. I mean, the first order of business is to recognize is it is it does it live in you? And if you are healthy, this is a mechanism that would be important for you to live with. Meaning that an unhealthy person does not care about what people think. That that's a sociopath. it's a narcissist. So, I would never advocate to not care. I would advocate, and that's really what the the research in the book was, is how to worry less or to not worry at all. So, it's the worrying that's the culprit. The caring is actually important. >> That's the humanness. >> Yeah. But u but but care from who? So, should I care about everybody's opinion? No. There's some real gates for me to care about your opinion. There's some real gates that you got to we got to walk through together. You've got to know my scar tissue, my hurts, my traumas. You've got to know my ambitions, my dreams, the things that I'm working towards. And you've got to have credibility that you've been in the quote unquote amphitheater of risk. Like you've gone for it in your life. >> So if those three are met, you got a seat at the table for me. >> That's really rich. I want you to I want you to hit those again for people so they don't have to rewind. Hit those three gates because I think that is really the key to being healthy. >> And and I'll say them again. And I think that the exercise is like what are the gates >> for you? That's right. These are the gates for me. That's correct. And and the gates are you've got to know my hurts and traumas and my the places where >> I'm I'm still trying to sort out my scar tissue, right? You got to know that part of me. >> That means we've got to spend some time and I got to trust and you know I I come to the world moderately low trust. So I need time with you to trust. Some people come in like with high trust. Awesome for that's great. It's just not me. I just need a little bit more time. That's okay. Like, and I tell people that, >> you know. Um, and then the other is like really I I I need you if I'm going to care about your opinion, I need to know that you know what I'm really really really really trying to do. Okay. And then third is you've got credibility. Like you've had cold air on your skin. You have understood what it feels like to be knocked around, to be in the amphitheater of high risk and come up short. Um, but you've gone for it. You've readied yourself for that cold air on your skin. So, those are three for me. And it could be wildly different from anybody, but I do think it is important to identify like who are the people that you are intimately going to care about what they have to say. And I don't know another way of saying it other than they should know you. I'll go back to Coach Carol um for just a moment. I was I was this is something I say often and it was something that he said to me once which is I was gonna he and I were going to go on stage and it was it was probably 12,000 people sizable room and he leans over as we're going back in and he says um how you feeling I go yeah I'm switched on and he goes yeah me too and so we're both kind of in a good pocket and we have language around that we say like what's your number >> and um so we're looking for a five sweet spot is a five out scale of 1 to 10. >> Okay. >> 10. Like the porridge is too hot. It's too cold. 7 8 9 10. It's too hot. Too cold is like a 1, two, three. Four, five, and six is where we're in the pocket. >> Love that. >> And so what's your number? And I I'll say this at Olympic athletes, whatever. What's your number? And um so we're both short-handed. Yeah, we're good. And he says, "Hey, remember to give him your heart." And I looked at him and I knew he was coaching me because that's what he needed to do. And it it hit me like, "Oh my god, that's an anecdote to me being the smart guy. I need to also connect my head into my heart because for years what I was doing is giving people my head." Like >> proving now that I'm smart. >> Can I Can I confess something because it's so relevant to what you just said? >> I wrote this down several months ago when it really hit me. I had been spending my entire life for adelation. And what really turned me on and when I was really healthy was when I was focused on transformation. >> Oh, cool. >> I love people. So my mom and dad in ministry, small church >> like just they loved people. My dad would clean the toilets and preach >> and that and he had a big he was into history. And so I pulled from that make a difference, but you don't have to be a big deal. However, it turns and then everything became I got to be a big deal. And so now I'm at a place where it's about transformation. >> Cool. >> Is the work that I'm doing tied to transformation? There's the glow, >> not how big of a deal I am. >> Am I being approved or rejected? >> Where do I rank? >> Yeah, that's right. It's complicated for all those reasons. And it's even more subtle, like staying a say your work's done, but you stay at the office a little bit longer because you don't want to signal that you're leaving >> early. like there's subtleties of football, too. You go, you go to a cocktail, you know, event and over the holidays and you don't really want to have a drink, but everyone's got a drink out and it's a little awkward if you don't have a drink, let's say, for those folks. And so, you're holding a drink, not really wanting a drink. That's fauxo. When you're in your closet and you're deciding like what am I going to wear? Are you is it the way you want to feel in the clothes or the way that Susie or Johnny's going to think about what you're wearing? you know, so it there's so many subtleties around excessively worrying about people that are outside of that core group that we just talked about. And then the last thing I'll hit on this faux bit is if you have the requisite skills to be at home with yourself, to settle in to the moments that you're in, then you're able to to be intentional about what you're giving to the environment rather than needing from it. So at the highest version of myself, I can walk onto what said stage and literally give my heart, which is like pour love into people rather than needing something from them. >> That's so well said. >> Yeah. And so it's the directionality, but you can't do that unless you have the psychological skills to be calm, to have to know how to generate confidence, to know how to deeply focus in any environment, to work from a compelling future in your imagination. And I could go on and on. If you haven't invested in those skills, the environment is so rich of triggering that ancient part of the brain which is like, "Hey, this is dangerous. If you're relegated, it's a near-death sentence." That's why when people go on stage, their heart starts to pound. Why would the heart pound? It's readying to fight or flight or flee. >> What is that about? That's survival. >> That's exactly right. >> So, the opinion of them is a survival mechanism. >> That's not right. >> That is not right. You can you can completely undo it. >> And I don't think we're aware of how an audience can experience us when we're in that mode. We may not be able to see it or identify it. >> This is boy, we're getting vulnerable today. >> I'm going practice what I preach. >> Okay. >> So, I go through all this therapy. It was very angry and sad and didn't realize it and it was just coming out. >> That's how most men do depression. >> Yeah. And uh I I speak as a part of all of our events. And so I'm keynoting at our big leadership event. >> Oh yeah. >> And then one specific lady came up to me the next day and I gave a vulnerable talk. Was the most vulnerable I've ever been. Just talked about self-awareness as a superpower. I see this lady the next morning, you know, this big hotel and I'm hat on at 7 a.m. getting a coffee and she comes up to me and she goes, "Hey, I want to tell you something." and she goes, "I've seen you every year at Summit and you're really good and you always have good things to say." But she goes, "There's something different about you." And she said this, and I started crying when she told me this. She goes, "Um," she said, "When you walked out on stage, before you said a word, I could tell." And I was like, "What?" And I said to her, you know, I started laughing. I'm crying and laughing because I go, >> "Are you serious?" >> Yeah. >> And she goes, "Yeah." "Have you been doing some?" And I was like, "You, how did you know that?" So I, you know, I don't mind getting chokey here, but it's like, >> "Yeah, it's cool, man." >> That's why I asked that question. You said, "What do you mean?" I'm saying I don't know as a leader and let's take this to real world here, not speaking on stage, but I I asked that question because I wonder if the average leader doesn't know how they're being experienced. >> Yeah. >> Because what you were saying is when you're fight or flight and you're worried about fo, you're coming across to the very people that you're supposed to care for and you want their trust and you want them to follow you. That's where I was going with that. >> Brilliant. Yeah. >> Well, I don't know. Is that is that how >> that's it? I mean, you know, we humans are really good at sniffing out BS because, you know, we don't want to follow somebody that can dupe us, that is like not safe because they're going to kind of pull the rug out or they're going to they're they're saying one thing, doing another or they're creating a shell, you know, from a performance standpoint, but that's not really what's on the inside. So, really, we're really good. We'll pick up subtleties um about the person, and we'll say things like, "Yeah, that was really good. Smart. He's really charismatic." right? >> You know, good points, >> but then they don't feel something, you know, and that's not transformational. >> Yeah. And that's more about you than it is about the audience. >> So she when she sees a work in progress, a mess in progress is how I think about myself. >> Like that better. >> Yeah. Like I'm a work in progress. And so like >> trying to get to that messy edge as often I can to unlock things. And it's it's it's wild out that message that >> um it gives permission for them >> to do the same as well. >> Yeah. And then the flip side that I'm the point I'm trying to I want our audience to catch this. We think that we're fooling them or we think that we've got a mask on and they already know. >> So we might as well I guess that's what I want to take away from this very moment as leaders. Hey, listen. They know something's off. So let's go ahead and rip the mask off. Why why did you why did you go to the emotional state in our conversation? Why did you allow that feeling to move from your stomach to your chest, behind your jaw, behind your eyes? Why did you do that? >> Because I know how important it is. The message. >> Yeah. >> And I'm Oh. Oh, I know why. I I'm not ashamed. >> That's it. >> I'm no longer trying to look smooth. That's right. the critique of me for years >> too slick. >> 100%. >> Yeah. Right. That's not trustworthy. >> Right. And it wasn't and I would go, "Oh, they think I'm very smooth." And then I finally realized, "Yeah, but they don't think I'm truly authentic. He's performing up there." >> And I think that I'm at a place now where it's like I'm I want to strip the performance and I want to be authentic. >> That's it. >> And by the way, it's what coach said. >> Yeah. >> Heart. >> Give them your heart. >> Give them your heart. >> Which is hard to do. >> It so resonated with me. really hard to do. I say that to all all the folks I care about before they go do something. Hey, remember to give give them your heart. That means you've got to kind of quiet the noise down, get connected here, and pour into another person. That is in some aspects, whether it's big stage or intimate conversation. That's what modern leadership is. And there's lots of definitions of it. The way I think about modern leadership is the application of basic psychology. >> Yeah. Like, okay, what am I what what bell am I ringing here? Is that anxiety, depression, addiction, suicidality, loneliness are all on the rise? >> Yeah. >> What does that mean? That means that the tide has gone out and we've realized that most of us have been swimming relatively naked. We don't have the right clothing to deal with the elements. And so, what does that mean? It means that as these new stressors are taking place in life, we've been masking our sense of readiness to deal with difficult times with like we've been covering it up because we haven't invested in our psychology. So the tide has gone out. There's new stressors in our lives and we're looking around going, "Oh, we're not ready for it." Yeah. >> Oh my goodness. So that's why I'm saying like in the workplace, basic psychological skills training is what I think is coming. Big sport is about 10 to 15 years ahead of big business. And 10 to 15 years ago, Coach Carol and I fully embedded psychological skills training in the rhythm of sport. It's now a best practice and I think it's coming in business because we need it. >> I agree. >> We need it. And can I make the assumption that it you believe that it will be the competitive edge going forward? >> Oh yeah. >> Companies that do this? >> Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's only three things that we can train as humans. We can train our technical skills, our craft, we can train our body, and we can train our mind. What I've learned from the best in the world is they're not leaving one of those up to chance. But the rest of us, we're training our craft kind of. We're professional sitters and we're not really kind of adjusting that properly. And we're like really absent in training the mind. >> I agree. >> So if you invest if if you invested in training the mind, it is a massive transformational experience for not only yourself, but the folks at home, your teammates at work, and for the mission of the company. >> It's the holiday season, and everywhere you look, there's another sale. And hey, saving money is great. I love it, and I know you do, too. But most people don't realize how much personal data they're giving up along the way. Every time you click that save now box or enter your email, you're sharing little pieces of information that can spread a lot farther than you think. And the data doesn't stay put. Data brokers grab it, bundle it, and sell it. Your name, your phone number, your address, and more. All floating out there in cyberspace. That's how you get spam calls, sketchy texts, and that uneasy feeling like somebody's watching your digital life. So, it's time to take back control. That is where Delete Me comes in. They're your digital pit crew. Finding your personal info on those sites, removing it, and keeping it gone. Folks, peace of mind doesn't come from ignoring the problem. It comes from taking control and protecting yourself and your privacy. And right now you can get 20% off an annual plan when you go to joindeleteme.comfront row seat. That's joined me.com/front row seat. This is what you wrote. When the core motivation of pursuing excellence is proving our self-worth. Failures, opinions, and criticism are experienced as threats rather than learning opportunities. And I wanted to bring before we move on. I mean, I I love that cuz you've talked about the threat piece. >> Yeah. >> But the learning opportunities, I just don't think that we're wired for that. >> To go, wait a second. >> This is a learning opportunity. >> Yeah. >> How do we shift to that? >> We say it all the time. Learn fast, fail forward, you know, like make mistakes. We say it all the time, but the environments are are not really conducive for it. You if you if you keep making mistakes, you're kind of kicked off the team. If you take big swings and you fail, you get kicked off the team. So like how do we really do it? The core of what I'm pointing to there is to do the internal work which you're describing you've done to look at like this thing called identity. And in the western world, we are our culture is a performance-based culture. in first grade, third grade, whatever the school district that you came from, you were assigned grades and everyone kind of knew where you stacked against other people. So, it would make perfect sense in a performance-based culture that we would develop a purpose, a performance-based identity. Makes clear sense. So, what is a per performance-based identity? >> I am not who I am. I am what I do and I am what I do relative to you. So now when I go do something semi-public or public and it's not going the way that I planned it, it's like I'm underperforming for some reason or it's not going well, that is no longer a a learning, it's no longer information that's coming in, it's a threat to the identity because the identity is coupled around or engrossed with performance. So, one of the coolest things we can do for elite athletes um and the rest of us to follow suit here is to de decouple who I am from what I do. And when it's all mashed together, as soon as you go do the thing, >> the performative thing, it is what's at risk is your entire sense of self. >> Yes. >> That it's too much. >> Yeah. It's it'll get you good because what will there's so much anxiety that if I'm not good enough that if that later thing happens and I'm not good enough man that's a problem. So it kicks up some anxiety to go do some stuff. Now we're trying to create something amazing from an anxious state and then we arrive at that thing in an anxious state. >> So the way we prepare and train creates habits and it doesn't just disappear. or that anxiety just doesn't disappear when you walk on the stage or walk into the boardroom. >> You're now trained well with anxiety. So, >> so the the the big thing is to decouple who I am from what I do. And how do you do that? First is like just who are you? And that's an ancient question that is nearly impossible to answer, but go on the adventure. That's right. >> You know, like you can break that down like well, what are my first principles in life? >> Yeah. >> What are my core values in life? What is my personal philosophy? Yeah. Can I add something to this? Some specific questions. Ask questions like, >> "What angers me?" >> Yeah, there you go. >> What thrills me? What gives me joy? So, what do I love? What do I hate? What breaks my heart in a good way? What breaks my These are just little questions that I wanted to give. >> Yeah. >> Because that's when you begin to see, oh, this is who I am. And it strips away all of the other crap. I go now this breaks my heart and this angers my heart >> and this scares me and this what >> start there right >> yeah you can totally do like the self what we're talking about is self-discovery >> and in psychology if I oversimplified this beautiful complex science it's complex because you can't see it >> yes >> you can't see thoughts we don't know where where they go how much they weigh where they start you can't see them you know but we know that they're there impact s everything. But this this science, if you think about it, there's two basic camps. A self-discovery process and then a mental skills set of practices. And that if you want to oversimplify it, you can start in either one. But what you're talking about is a discovery process. What makes me work? >> Who do I want to be? >> Yeah. >> And I think I said this earlier, but I'm not sure I I hit on enough is that everything you need is already inside of you. I agree 100%. What a statement. >> Yeah, >> great statement. >> It's already in there. So, so my job and your job, if you're helping me, is to kind of open that aperture, put some light on it, you know, and hold the standard. It's already in me. I don't Nobody else is going to give it to me. It's I don't have to go get it. >> That's right. >> I bring my value is inherent into every room I enter. >> Yeah. >> And so, I just need to keep the aperture wide open enough that I can be playful. >> Yeah. in the experiences and not be all kind of bound up about all the things that could go wrong. >> All right, I want to talk about burnout's been a long held issue and topic, but still shows up in all the data is some of the biggest problems. But really, I want to go to stress >> for the person who just is feeling so much stress in a professional context and they know it. They don't have a therapist yet. They're watching this. They're listening to this. All right, doc, what would you tell them? Just a fundamental basic. What can they begin to do to deal with this? >> I think understanding the science of it would be the first place to investigate. And I'll give you a short hand, but they they ought to go research the science of stress for humans. >> Um, and then I'll give you best practice. >> Okay? You know, so 1920, Hans Celier, S A Y L E Sier, um founded a model and what he found is that organisms in a petri dish and comes to find out humans when you give them an alarm, an alarm, something that of an acute stress, boom, system lights up, you know, wilderbeastes running at you or whatever the alarm is, >> boom, acute stress. And if you don't deal with that acute stress well and you kind of hang on to it, let's call that moderate stress. Under moderate stress, we do our best work. That's a good kind of moment of time. >> Yes, >> we're optimized and ready to like be great. And again, if you don't shed that down, you move into a very predictable arc. And that goes from acute stress to moderate stress. And now you're in this chronic stress loop or um phase which is fatigue, staleness, burnout, early death. And that's never going to work if you don't get this system of stress right. Most people are on this chronic arc. Okay? And what I'm pointing to is what we do in elite sport is that we are designing the environment and we are hiring for people recruiting for people that will embrace high levels of acute stress and we're designing the environment to get to that acute stress repeated throughout the day and we're also designing the environment for intelligent recovery. So we're looking for the calculus between for every unit of stress equal unit of recovery today. Not on a sbatical, not waiting for the weekend, not waiting for a vacation, not waiting for, you know, whatever. Acute stress and radical commitment to recovery daily so that you can do it again tomorrow. And then you take it just a little further, a little further, both with acute stress and best practices for recovery. That's that's the science of it in the most basic way that I think about it. I need I need to know that acute stress is really important to growth and I need people around me that are going to help me get there because it's hard to do. >> Yeah. >> It's why people like going to strength coaches or fitness coaches, you know, or being in a community fitness class like, you know, just helping just challenge it just a little bit. It was the first science first research in sport psychology was about fishing. And this researcher this psychologist um was fishing with the son and and then he noticed the next day when he his son brought a friend that his son was casting double the amount of lines. So by himself I'll make up a number he cast 10 lines you know in whatever amount of time. Then he brings his friend and he >> 20 lines you know in that same amount of time. So there's something about being in an environment where people you you want to you want to do well. You want to they're holding a standard. They're pushing each other a little bit further. Acute stress, radical recovery, and that's the that's the mechanism. >> Okay, I love that. Now, on the leadership side, leaders, they, you know, they're trying to lead people well. They're not professional psychologists. How can they a be attuned to stress a little bit better maybe? Yeah. and B in their unique role as a manager, a leader, they're not a psychologist, not a therapist. How can they help reduce stress? >> It is it it li the burden lies on the person, not the leader. >> Okay. So, you could do all of the things to try to help me decrease stress or what, but if you say, "Mike, you really need a vacation." >> Yeah. Yeah. Trust me, you're good. like I want you to go on vacation and when you get back there's going to be a raise for you. So this is not like this false threat, >> right? >> And I'm like, okay, now I'm trained though to be anxious. I'm trained to work at the fevered pitch because that's what the environment requires. I go on vacation. What do I do? I do what I always do, which is like gear myself up. That's why people say like they go on vacation, it takes them three, four days to unwind and then they get sick, >> right? because the the system is so depleted at that point. >> True. >> Yeah. So the the the burden is on the individual. >> Okay. >> What can leaders do though is um teach and train or bring people in to teach and train about how stress works. The leader can also invest in best practices for recovery, acute thin slices of recovery. There's hundreds of these that I can give you that that any leader can deploy inside of their agenda. So if a meeting is what 45 minutes, 50 minutes, whatever a meeting is, deploying a thin slice of recovery or a thin slice of um regulation, emotional regulation inside of each meeting, if you got six meetings a day, you're doing a nice little thing across the organization. For example, um posture is super simple. These are the thousands of things that I Here's one small one. When you ask people just to adjust their posture and you teach why posture is so important, then then that becomes a moment to actually regulate stress. What do I mean by that? Um, if I am if if I'm in a situation, uh, go back 200,000 years ago and I need to fight, okay? And I'm readying myself. My chin is down, my eyes are up, my my hands are forward, right? So, there's there's this type of environment and the uh a hunched over anatomy. This way, what our brains do is they go, "Oh, there's a threat in the environment." >> Okay. So, what what does that look like in modern times? It looks like I'm typing on my phone. my my chin's down, my eyes are kind of up, and my my my I'm hunched over. That sends a signal like we're under stress or duress. Wow. So, just teaching that simple little thing to all of your staff like, "Hey, listen >> up here." So, you're going to give you're going to give your posture or you're going to give your diaphragm the chance to have a deep breath and you're going to pull your shoulders back. And listen, it sounds corny. We're just going to kind of just do that for the rest of this this meeting. Just make sure that you're working on your posture as you're doing this. This posture sends a signal to your brain like we're good, we're safe, we can be open. This posture sends a signal or when you're on your devices that we're under duress. It's small. It's super small. But those types of small little thin slices go a long way. >> Wow. >> The easiest one I would say though is to reg use use breathing as one of the greatest tools. >> Long exhales are paired with safety. M >> as a leader, remember I said modern leadership is the application of basic psychology. Basic psychology is that if you want to relax your system, long exhales. So maybe maybe you send them an audio file, I'll send them an audio file, maybe the leader does it themselves, they bring somebody in, whatever it might be, there's probably somebody that on the team that does >> understand the science of breathing. And you just ask them to start the meeting with just a hand, one breath, maybe three breaths, maybe three long exhales. Hey, we got a lot of stuff to do. We got a full agenda on our meeting. Like we got some stuff we got to solve before we get into the intensity of it. Look, everybody get your posture right. Three good breaths. Let's go. I want you to talk about intrinsic versus exttrinsic motivation. One of the things I have seen just in my work is such bad tactics in the workplace of leaders trying to motivate people and the and I did a post one time as a joke on Instagram and it went viral and we just put out a meme of a guy talking about you know pizza pizza and beer party on Friday like that's supposed to really motivate people and I begin to go down the rabbit hole of it and I think it's great parenting exttrinsic motivation great parenting I I joke sort of, but I'm going to let you you unpack the difference between exttrinsic motivation and intrinsic and how as a leader you need to understand that and apply that. >> Yeah. Cool question. Let's let's first point to a model that has been well accepted and stood up over time, psychological model called self-determination theory. So I'm working from this model that has three elements. Okay. So people that are intrinsically motivated, which means that they have an internal way of wanting to do something on their own, like they like the way it feels to unlock something. They like the way it feels to solve. They like the way it feels to be in partnership with they're they're they're motivated within themselves to go do something. Those three variables are um if you want somebody to be more intrinsically motivated, help them understand their competence. Help them have a narrative about themselves of what they're really good at. Help them be connected to the autonomy that they bring to the environment, the decisions that they make, the choices that they are that are under their purview. So relationship uh I'm sorry competence, autonomy and relationships is the third variable which is make sure that the relationships are intact that there is support and challenge. If you get those three things right, you will increase the intrinsic motivation for people. The exttrinsic motivators are things like getting paid or recognition. Those are awesome. Those are good. I'm not saying dismiss those. People ought to be paid as much as we can possibly and recognize as much as we possibly like those are great but there's something really special about that the equation between the two. We want to hire for people that are intrinsically motivated and we want to also understand how to feed that even deeper. But we never would say that right because you like what you're doing, we're going to pay you less on the that's the exttrinsic. There's a balance in there to sort out for each person. So much so that um we identify early in sport the athletes that are exttrinsically motivated, money, paid, getting paid or fame or whatever those are. and we need to structure their compensation on performance bonuses. So if you pay that person a lot upfront, you've just kind of decreased this drive. So you just need to understand the mechanisms and how to feed those mechanisms to help a person be their best. And if you want to swing that that hinge over to intrinsic to support that, again, it's help them know their competence, help them feel autonomous in how they're designing their life. point that out all the places they have choice and the last is like make sure the relationships are intact to support and challenge them. Now self-determination theory at large understanding the application of it I think is the sweet science. There's one more thing to pay attention to though because we're doing intrinsic and exttrinsic and we're using the word motivation but if you just stay on the intrinsic piece for a minute there's two other variables that are nuanced in here that get kind of collapsed. One is the difference between internal drive and intrinsic reward. >> Okay. Then there's external drive and exttrinsic reward. So it's not as simple as just intrinsic exttrinsic motivations. There's subcategories in here. What's an internal drive? You don't need to wake that person up. They get up on their own. They're going >> they are in they they're coming from within themselves to go after something. >> Self starters. Yep. Okay. On the reward bit, it's the what I said earlier. They love the way it feels to unlock something. That is the you get those two things together. You don't need to shoulder tap them to go. And they love the way it feels to solve the problems. Happy days as a teammate. That's awesome. >> On the other side though, this gets dangerous. If you don't understand the lever and if you're using the wrong lever for the if you're using the external or exttrinsic for the internal or intrinsic, it's a it's a mismatch and vice versa. But on the on the external and exttrinsic, these are highmaintenance. >> Yes. >> If you've got to shoulder tap somebody to get going and you've got to constantly check in with them, they might be high earners. They might be people that are successful, but they take a lot. >> They pull a lot. This is not the long game. These are folks that drain from the system because they need a lot of handholding. So, they better be worth it, >> right? They better bring something else to the thing that is really valuable like extraordinary kindness or extraordinary results or something. there's something else that they're bringing to the dance >> and they're they are primarily motivated by the ex exttrinsic you know system. So >> um I think that the the ideal mix is to know the self-determination theory build the internal intrinsic stuff and then pay people accordingly like pay we want to pay we want to celebrate how much people can make. I want to I like coach Carol is famous for this and look he's at the Raiders right now and they're having a tough time you know like this is a complicated system that he's in right now but it was awesome like um him and the owner are celebrating how much they can they can pay top talent to come in and they want to pay even more like pay people well it's awesome. >> Yeah. >> But don't miss what they're really searching for. Oh >> so good. >> All right here's my question. What did you learn today? What did you learn? And then more importantly, what are you going to do with it? Now, I've learned so much uh so much. Um but the thing that I am going to take away the most uh from this conversation is the faux, the fear of other people's opinions specifically. There's more work for me to do as I'm in recovery, getting better, more self-aware, dealing with the wounds and the emotions. But I'm going to tell you something. There's a lot for me to do. And I'm going to do something very specific. And I challenge you to maybe think along these lines. I'm going to create an inventory just top of mind. I love a pencil. I'm going to write it down over the next few days. Who are the people that maybe I've given a little too much of my emotion and carrying what they think and who should I be? That's the key. I'm going to create a list and I haven't done that work. And I think it's important. Create that list uh of the people that you should be caring about. I think that'll go a long way to helping all of us deal with something that is a deeply human issue. Uh hey, if you enjoy the episode, we'd love for you to do the things you know what they are. Like, share, subscribe, and all the things. And then, uh, if you'd like to join us eventually, uh, in a studio audience, which we do from time to time, stay tuned for what we've got coming up at Front Row Seat, and you can sign up there. It's in the show notes. You can click on that link. Well, Michael, I got to tell you, I the only thing that sucks about this is we just don't have four more hours to let your brain and heart just completely pour out. You did both for us today, and I'm grateful just personally, and I know on behalf of the audience, they got a lot out of it. So, thank you. >> You know, you created a space to go to places that often times I don't go to and to articulate um the things that are difficult to describe. And so, thank you for the questions. Thank you for the space. And um this has been a real joy for me as well. It's been fun. Thank you. Appreciate you. Awesome.