Transcript [EN]: Sam Shamoun Vs. Shabir Ally Classic Debate - The Debate That Made Shabir Runs Away for Two Decades

my dear brothers and sisters my dear friends Brother shabbir Ali Brothers I welcome all of you to today's great event the debate is Quran or the Bible which is the word of God my name is sabil Ahmed and on behalf of the Muslim Student Association of the University of Iowa I welcome all of you assalamu alaikum warahmatullah peace and blessings of Allah be upon all of you it is my great pleasure to introduce our speaker today Brother shabbir Ali he is the president of the Islamic information and Dava Central International Toronto Canada he is host of the weekly radio program in Toronto and also on Ayana regionette and he's the author of many booklets including common questions people ask about Islam with that I would like to invite brother Samuel Naman to introduce Brother Sam Shimon [Music] foreign [Music] thank you very much it's a great honor and privilege for us to be here I also want to extend my heartful thanks to brother sabil brother shabir and the Muslim Student Association of this University thank you brother Ahmed and sake when all the gang here a brief introduction of Brother Sam Shimon Brother Sam Shimon is a Bible teacher uh he is also a resident internet evangelist at the South Asian friendship Center he is part of the rebuttal thief of the answering Islam that website that you can go to we are honored this evening to have brother shabbir and Brother Sam and talk for talk them about the topic that we have received one request is this that this is a very uh great occasion and I will request you to if you want to have some conversation maybe keep it a little bit low uh Brother Sam will go first and he will have 20 minutes to present his topic thank you Hallelujah thank you praise be the God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ I'd like to testify that there is no God but the Triune God of Father Son and Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ is the resurrected and glorified king of glory and the Lord of All Flesh I'd like to begin this discussion with the fact that even the debate itself is wrongly titled the Quran or the Bible which is the word of God because interestingly when you read the Quran itself and when you read the earliest Islamic sources all the Muslims of Latter days presumed that the Bible was the uncorrupt pure word of God and I will seek to prove that point tonight interestingly the criteria that shabbir Ali often uses in his debates against the authenticity of the Gospels as well as the entire Bible can be used against the Quran even more forcefully which I will also demonstrate God willing tonight first I want to appeal to what shabbir Ali considers a reliable source of information so much so that today he's debating the fact that this source is the word of God namely the Quran to me the Quran represents the thoughts and ideas of the first Muslims their views on different areas of life specifically the holy scriptures the Bible I will quote the Quran to establish one that the Bible is the uncorrupt pure word of God and I've heard passages that shabbir Ali often presents in his dialogues debates and writings to try to give the impression that the Quran denies that the Bible in our possession today is the uncorrupt pure word of God instead of attacking straw man I will just quote one passage that he often presents against debaters and in his writings chapter 2 verse 79 of the Quran he quotes this and this is the portion that he quotes but he leaves out verse 78. let me quote the portion that he quotes therefore woe be unto those who write scripture with their hands and then say this is from Allah that they may purchase a small gain therewith woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they earn thereby now when you quote this passage out of its context it gives the impression that the Quran is affirming that the Jews and Christians falsified scripture and claimed it was from God but when you read the verse before it it that interpretation sinks now let me read it in context chapter 2 verse 78 to 79. among them are unlettered folk the Arabic word and shabir can correct me is um who know the scripture not except from hearsay they but guess this is the context of the passage it is not referring to the Jews and Christians as a whole corrupting and falsifying Revelation in actuality it's speaking of unlettered ignorance amongst the people who did not know the scripture if they did not know the scripture how could they corrupt it so this verse would not support Bible corruption with that said let me go into the positive case that the Quran presents that the Bible and my possession as Muhammad knew it is the uncorrupt word of God basically what this will do is anytime shibir then decides to attack the Bible he debunks the testimony of the Quran and therefore can no longer be a Muslim let me quote the first verse is chapter 15 verse 9 of the Quran it says this we have without doubt sent down the message in Arabic and we will assurely guard it from corruption now interestingly most Muslims feel that this verse is referring to the protection of the Quran and in its immediate context it is referring to the Quran I have no arguments with that but even more interesting is the fact that the very Quran also calls the Bible the reminder the message let me quote those references chapter 16 verse 43 and before thee we sent none but men to whom we granted inspiration if you realize this not ask those who possess the reminder the message referring to the book and the possession of the Jews and Christians chapter 21 verse 7 of the Quran says the same thing before thee also The Messengers we sent were but men to whom we granted inspiration if you know this not ask of those who possess present tense the reminder again chapter 21 verse 48. in the past we granted to Mosin and Aaron the Criterion El for Khan for judgment and a light and a reminder zikra for those who would do right 21 verse 105 before this we wrote in the Psalms after the reminder zikra my servants the righteous shall inherit the Earth final reference to the fact that the scripture before the time of Muhammad was called the reminder is chapter 40. verse 53-54 we did after time give Moses the guidance and we gave the book an inheritance to the children of Israel a guide and a reminder zikra to Men of understanding now the question I posed to shabir is simply this if God is consistent and he has sworn that he will protect the reminder and this reminder includes previous scripture how can even assume the Bible's been corrupt and if he tells me that Quran says the Bible's been corrupt I ask them to give me one verse that says the text of scripture has been corrupted just one saying those words he will not find it and if he decides to quote chapter 5 verse 48 or so on and so forth I'm prepared to respond in the rebuttal period such as that show that the Bible is the uncorrupt pure word of God chapter 2 verse 113. the Jews say the Christians not fonded upon anything and the Christians say the Jews are not founded upon anything and yet they read the book now the question is what book is the Quran speaking of it's that same book that the Quran has just testified is the reminder sent down by Allah and he would preserve it other references showing that the Bible is the uncorrupt pure word of God chapter 3 verse 3 of the Quran he has revealed to you the book with the truth confirming the scriptures which preceded it for he has already revealed the Torah and the gospel for the guidance of mankind and the distinction of right and wrong now shabbir has an Arabic English dictionary I ask him to look up the word confirm and tell us what does it mean this is the definition of the term it means to give credence to believe to accept as true confirming accepting as true belief confirming establishing as true so the function of the Quran wasn't to expose corruption to the text it was to confirm its Authority as truth from God preserved by God almighty there is no such teaching as Bible corruption that's a Muslim myth in order to avoid the consequences of affirming that the Bible is the word of God because to do so refutes the Quran other verses chapter 7 verse 156 to 157. and I will write down my Mercy for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs who follow the Apostle the alleged Prophet whom they find written in the Torah and the gospel that is with them now according to shabir's arguments and his research papers as well as debates and lectures the Torah and the gospel are no longer in its pristine form what we find today is the words of men if that's the case why does Allah say the Torah and the gospel is with you why doesn't he say you have it in part but you corrupted the rest is Allah deceiving the Christians and the Jews please answer that question for me chapter 53 verse 36 of the Quran says nay he is not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses and again if Muhammad was not familiar with the Books of Moses this presumes that the Books of Moses was available in the time of Muhammad No statement of corruption or embellishment the Quran doesn't say well because Moses wrote his obituary in Deuteronomy 34 it can't be the word of God it doesn't say this and an all-knowing God should know to provide this information in order to protect from Christians like me using it as the basis to prove that my book is the uncorrupt word of God chapter 5 verse 46 to 47. and we cause Jesus Son of Mary to follow in their footsteps confirming the same Arabic word that which was revealed before him in the Torah let me pause here briefly we know what the Torah and the time of Jesus was like we have the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the Septuagint irrespective of variant readings and I will get to the variant readings of the Quran and show that the Quran itself is not a perfectly preserved book According to Islamic sources so we definitely know what the Torah and the time of Jesus looked like that he confirmed and it's identical to the Torah that is in my Bible today showing that this is the word of God let me continue and we bestowed on him the gospel whereas wherein excuse me is guidance and light confirming that which was revealed before in the Torah a guidance and admonition unto those who ward off evil and let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it here's my question if the gospel no longer existed in the time of Muhammad how could we judge by it and what was that gospel now I've heard arguments say well here the Quran says gospel is in the singular therefore it's not speaking of the four gospels Matthew Mark Luke and John unfortunately for the Muslims Who present this argument this will not work simply for the fact that even Muslim Scholars such as El zamakshari and baidawi admit that the word injil is not an original Arabic term it's a loanword from the Syriac which means we must go back to the Syrian Christians and see what the gospel was to them when we look at the history of the church beginning at the second century the four full gospel accounts were called the gospel of Christ not the gospels of Christ that's why the singular so if he says it's a singular that won't do it chapter 5 verse 68 of the Quran say o people of the book you are not founded on anything until you perform the Torah and the gospel and what was revealed to you from your lord how could they perform the Torah and the gospel if it was corrupt doesn't make sense I also hear Muslims say produce a Surah like the Quran if you believe the Quran is not from God but what they don't mention is the Quran also challenges unbelievers to not only produce a Surah like the Quran but to produce a book like the Torah and the Quran let me read it to you chapter 28 verse 48 to 49. but when the truth has come to them from us they say why is he not given the light of what was given to Moses did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before they say two kinds of magic Torah and the Quran each helping the other and they say verily in both we are disbelievers say to them o Muhammad then bring a book from Allah which is a better guide than these two the Torah and the Quran that I may follow it if you are truthful again why would Allah say produce a book like the Torah if the Torah was corrupted in the time of Muhammad I'd like to hear the response when we go to the Islamic Traditions what was Muhammad's view of the scriptures available in his time let me quote the life of Muhammad by IBN Scott page 268. excuse me I have a hard time speaking English let alone Arabic so I do apologize came to him the prophet of Islam and said do you not allege that you followed the Ridgeland of Abraham and believe in the Torah which we have and testify that is the truth from God he replied certainly his others say wait wait part of it is from Allah you have embellished the rest of it he says certainly what you have is the Torah from God so much so that according when Muhammad went to a Madras of the Jews he asked for the Torah and showed it enough respect that he placed it on a pillow and he says I believe in thee and in the one who revealed thee if the Torah was corrupt how could he bear witness to a corrupt scripture I'd like the answer for that one there's more to come in the rebuttal period now what about shabir's methodology against the Bible that the Bible has variant readings and transcriptional errors and alleged discrepancies well what I'm going to do with the remainder of time which I only have five minutes by the way time really goes fast when you speak uh very fast what I'm going to do with the remainder of my time is quote authentic Islamic sources to show that Muslims that met the Quran suffered corruption and is not in its pristine form no matter what they say memorization preserve the Quran allegedly according to these sources it did not let me quote one this is quote many of the passages of the Quran that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of yamama but they were not known by those who survived them they were not known nor were they written down they were not written down nor had Abu Bakr Umar or uthman by that time collected the Quran nor were they found with even one person after them here is an Islamic Source whether shabbir considers it reliable or not is a mute point the fact is it is a Muslim admitting that passages of the Quran that certain people memorized went with them when they died and no one else knew these verses I'd like shibir to comment on that another one IBN Umar saying it is reported from Ismail IBN Ibrahim from Ayu from Nafi from Emin Umar who said let none of you say I have acquired the whole of the Quran how does he know what all of it is when much of the Quran has disappeared rather let him say I've acquired acquired what has survived how much time do I have two minutes three minutes because I can all right three minutes sorry some Soros that are actually missing from the present text of the Quran and I have a field day when Muslims bring this up they'll often ask me which Bible do you believe in the Catholic Bible 73 books or the Protestant of 66. well now I'm going to ask shabir which Quran do you believe is the Canon of Allah the 116 of Obi bin kab and IBN Abbas or the 111 of Abdullah IBN Masood or the 114 that you have and that you claim is the word of God and if you say it's 114 produce one verse in the Quran that says 114 chapters is the Canon of Allah show that to me please here are the two Sorrows of Ubi IBN kab that are no longer in the text of the Quran and ubaid was called the master of the quranic reciters one of the top memorizers and he believed these were part of the book of Allah let me quote them and I guess my time is over you alone we worship and to you alone we pray and lie prostrate and to you alone we proceed and have descendants We Fear your torture and hope for your mercy truly your torture will overtake the infidels the second one o Allah you alone we ask for help and forgiveness we speak appreciatingly of your goodness never do we disbelieve you we repudiate and disbelieve anyone who follows immorality with that said I end this part of my discussion and I leave shabir with the following questions if you come up and attack the Bible for variant greetings we'll have a field day with the Quran and its thousands of variants in fact here's Arthur Jeffrey's book and the Thousand variants of the Quran if you tell me there are contradictions in the Bible we'll have a field day with the contradictions in the Quran with one exception I will quote the Sunnah and Muhammad's interpretation of the Quran which forces the contradiction so you can try to reconcile the passages that's your private interpretation you are not the prophet of Islam and you must follow the Sunnah being a Sunni Muslim so we will see what happens from here thank you for your patient listening foreign [Music] will have 20 minutes for his opening statement [Music] I begin by praising the creator of the heavens and the Earth and I asked him to send peace and blessings upon all of his prophets and in particular upon the last of all of his Prophets a man whom he sent with a message for all the world what I see happening here tonight is a kind of dichotomy I see there is a separation between two groups here in the audience so that one group will cheer when one speaker speaks and the other group will cheer when the other speaker speaks but I would like to see instead is a kind of more rational academic approach to this discussion where we think about the points being raised and we find out whether or not these points have any validity to them we look to the reasons that they're being offered for various claims and we think about ways in which we might explore these questions and points a little bit further by doing a little bit of our own research on the side I do not think that the issue we are discussing tonight will be settled in one night I think that while we can do Sam and I used to stimulate your interest in studying the issue a little bit further now to the issue itself the Quran or the Bible which is the word of God Muslims claim it is the Quran and Christians claim that it is the Bible however Muslims do not claim that the Quran that the Bible is not the word of God Muslims in fact will insist that the Bible does contain Revelation from God and for this reason Muslims are not surprised to find that there are many passages in the Quran and there are many references from the prophet Muhammad and whom be peace that speak very favorably about the Bible now often people will say well look this speaks so favorably that means that the Quran affirms and and agrees with everything that the Bible says but one has to see how words are being used not only in the Quran but in any other context a word might have a variety of meanings when the Quran speaks for example about the Torah or the gospel everyone knows that the Torah and the gospel has changed over time so when we're referring to the Torah and the gospel one has to find out what context is being referred to as find out what exactly is meant by the Torah or the gospel now I always find it surprising that Christians tried to persuade Muslims that the Torah and the gospel has never been changed whereas Christians know themselves that the Torah and the gospel has been changed if for example you're reading what Sam is accustomed to reading The New International Version Bible you will notice in the footnoting of the Bible that it always points out or often points out that there's a change here or there so you will find whole passages sometimes marked off as being a later contribution to the text and not original I see some very uh leery eyes here look for example at Mark chapter 16 look for verses 9 to 12. you'll see that that whole section is marked off as a later addition into the Bible it's not an original part of Mark's gospel now what happened to the original text of Mark's gospel how did it really end nobody knows for sure The Interpreter is one volume commentary on the Bible offers a few suggestions and among them is the suggest question that what was there was not palatable to the early Christians and somebody deliberately tore it off and then in its place other writers wrote some a short ending some a long ending and some copied both endings into the one Bible you'll find that marked off don't be surprised if we claim that the Bible has changed over time in fact when the Quran uses the term injil or Torah one has to see in what context it is referring to the Torah or the injil it might be referring to the original injil sometimes it might be referring to the angel which is present in the hands of the readers at certain times one has to determine what is meant there when the Quran approves of the Angel and confirms what is in it the Quran is speaking about the original text revealed from God at the same time the Quran goes to Great Lengths to correct some of the information which is there in the angel this is why the Quran said in Surah 5 verse number 48 which Sam would like to explain a little bit further that not only is the Quran confirming what came before it but is also a Muhammad on the previous scriptures which means a controller a guardian a watcher a supervisor a master over the previous scriptures so that the Quran not only confirmed forms what is there but also corrects and shows where it is wrong oftentimes the Quran does not say look I'm telling you that the Torah is wrong or I'm telling you that the angel is wrong because the quran's purpose would not be met by that kind of negative and hostile approach and I hope that we won't use that kind of hostile approach in our giving The Message of Islam however when it comes to a debate like this one sometimes it becomes necessary to make a few points clear the Quran gives the correct information without condemning often the previous scriptures but look at the information for example we read in the Quran that God created the heavens and the Earth and nothing of weariness touched him now that automatically brings to mind Exodus chapter 31 verse 17 from the Bible what does it say it says that after God created the heavens and the Earth in six days he rested on the seventh day and he was refreshed now Sam will have to explain what is meant by refreshed but the Quran is telling you now nothing of weariness even touched God God is correcting the information now in Surah 9 verses number 29 and 30 the Quran replies to those who claim that God has taken a son some said that Jesus was the Son of God the Quran says in reply to this that this is a saying of people who have disbelieved of old so the Quran right away is making itself clear that wherever in the gospels or the rest of the New Testament you will find Jesus being proclaimed as the Son of God you must realize that this is not a revelation from God but it is a saying of those who have disbelieved of old so the Quran is making itself plain not only is it confirming the previous scriptures but it is also correcting it supervising it watching over it and showing where it went wrong the Bible tells us that Solomon who is called Suleiman in the Quran actually worshiped Idols towards the end of his life he did evil in the sight of the Lord the Quran tells us on the other hand in Surat did not disbelieve but it is the Devils that disbelieved the Quran is again making itself plain now Christians should be happy to embrace this statement from the Quran because look the Bible has writings which you say were written by King Solomon it you you have the Song of Solomon for example so now if Solomon was a disbeliever and if he worshiped Idols then what kind of moral lesson does that give to us if we're going to read a book which is written by a man who worshiped idols and the Very book is telling us we can't worship idols so the Quran actually is a book which should be embraced not only by Muslims but also by Christians in fact if one starts from Christianity understanding the Bible already and then sees the Quran one has to be totally impressed with the Quran as a message as a confirmation from the almighty God all of the stories that we are familiar with from the Bible have been cleaned up in the Quran what do I mean by that if you look for example at the story of the in the Bible concerning lot now there is a lesson there for humankind look what the people did and look how God punished them now that lesson is also there in the Quran but in the Bible you have a continuation it says that after a lot was rescued he went up into the mountain stayed in the cave with his two daughters and his daughter has instigated each other and they decided they'll make the father drunk they go live with him and have children from him so one did it the first night the other did it the second night now you must realize that if we're going to give such a thing to our kids to read we will have a lot of explaining to do but rather than go that route why not give them the pure word of God the Quran gives you the story of lot and it's pure and pristine form now I said I'm amazed that people try to tell us that the Torah has not been changed whereas in fact the Bible itself tells us that the Torah has been changed in the book of Jeremiah in chapter 8 verse 8 it says how can you say we are wise and we have the Torah of the Lord whereas the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it so it depends of the scribes have done that to the Torah how could anyone tell us that that has not happened to the Torah now when we read the books themselves we wonder which really is the word of God we look at the contents of the books and we find out which really is the pure word of God here we see often that the Quran is reinstating the message from God but not giving us the kinds of things which we should shun away from now you look at the Book of Genesis for example I think if anyone were to just simply read the book of Genesis with an unbiased mind asking yourself is this really the word of God I think you will conclude that parts of it is not the word of God and that is the Muslim position now look at the story of Noah a flood King the Quran tells us the same thing a flood came to wipe out the disbelieving people but now the Quran tells us about Noah how he preached to the people how he appealed to them to worship only the one true God to give up idol worship there is a lesson and a moral teaching in the Quran that is wholly absent from the Bible on the other hand the Bible tells us in the story of Noah why God decided to send the flood it tells us in Genesis chapter 1 that God created everything and saw that everything was good and then God later on found out that people are in error by the sixth chapter of Genesis God is fed up with people it says that it grieved God to his heart it repented him that he made man does God change his mind and become sorry that he made man but what happened there in Genesis chapter 6 verses 1 to 4 we read that the sons of God looked down on the daughters of men and found them fear and they came in to the daughters of men and as a result of that were born the Giants of old the Bible Book of Genesis chapter 6. now I'm here to Bear witness friends that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Allah never had any grandsons this story shows that the sons of God came down and had sons from the daughters of men the Giants of old you see the Quran actually without condemning the Bible is giving you the pure message of God and all you have to do is to read the Quran and find out you look at the story of Jesus and whom be peace look at the Annunciation how the angel of Gabriel came to Mary and told her that she will be the mother of a child although she is a virgin a beautiful story told in the Bible told also in the Quran now in the Quran Mary asks how can I have a child where no mortal has touched me and she is told that is easy for Allah when he decides a thing he only says to it be and it becomes you go to the Bible and you read essentially the same story but with a few problems because there when Mary asked the question she's told by the angel the holy spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you so that that which is born within you will be called The Son of God now the imagery that gives a person is the imagery of God coming upon Mary the manner in which human beings do it now some of you might be surprised at that but that is the image that many people have obtained from this passage in my experience of meeting Christians and debating in a number of different platforms I have stories I can tell you that will confirm this how some Christians view this the theologians will say no don't think of it that way but listen to the words of the text and see how different it is than the quranic wording and then it says so that that which is conceived in her will be conceived by the Holy Spirit Sam himself says that the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus amen now tell us what that means and how does that relate to God now the Quran gives us the essential message that came to the previous Prophets and reinstates that repeats that for us and this is what the Quran means when it says it confirms the previous Revelations that is the meaning of the word it confirms that which came before it the the entire Bible from the beginning to the end stresses that there is only one God but there are verses of the Bible which would seem to indicate something else and many people today read their Bibles like an insurance contract they don't go for the main message they don't look at the big picture they go down into the fine print to make sure there is not something there that they are missing so what they do is they find one little verse and they say well look this looks like it means Trinity and then they take that whereas that is a problematic teaching in itself nobody has been able to explain satisfactorily what exactly is the Trinity how can God be three and yet One how can you have three persons each of whom is completely God so that's God that's God that's God and together they are still only one God the Quran rescues us from that by telling us that there is only one God and do not say three just say one now as we reveal the gospels we realize that over time the gospels were written not in the lifetime of Jesus and whom be peace yes there was only one gospel Sam is right about that but over time there came to be four gospels which are four attempts to record the life and teachings of the man and Prophet Jesus the Christ and over time as you look at these gospels you see that the story about Jesus was evolving so that in the last of the four gospels you have the kinds of claims which Christians are very fond of for example that Jesus said I and the father are one that Jesus said whoever has seen me has seen the father that Jesus said for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life it is in the fourth gospel that you find this now that you're saying amen think about why it's only in the Gospel of John but not in the other three if Jesus had said these words Christians if Jesus said if Jesus had said these words you would expect that right from the very start Christians would have been saying amen and every Christian preacher would be preaching the same words every gospel writer would be writing the same thing they're very important words if he said them but why did Mark not write them Matthew not write them look not write them only John wrote them the last of the four gospels that is because the story about Jesus was evolving over time and His Image was going around like a snowball the more you roll it around the bigger it gets so that the image of Jesus appears bigger and greater in the last of the four gospels the Gospel of John that is not the original picture the Quran brings us back to believe in that original picture he was not the Son of God but a servant and God's Messiah the Quran brings us back to the original truth now what about this idea that Jesus died for our sins the Bible says that Jesus died as a ransom for many the Quran corrects that by telling us that in fact everyone is responsible for his own Deeds if you sin you repent you turn back to God and like The Prodigal Son you will be forgiven that was the original teachings of Jesus before people started teaching that he died for the sins of humankind now what does it mean that he died as a ransom for many if he died as a ransom for us that means he paid the price with his blood so that we can be released true but to whom did he pay the price to the father in which case the father appears cruel and unjust for taking the blood of his son or did he pay the price to the devil in which case it looks like the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God and that ain't right either nobody can explain these Concepts the Trinity the sonship of Jesus or the ransom sacrifice of Jesus come back to the message which the Quran has given us now people tell us that the Bible is the pure word of God and they say we should turn away from the Quran we should go to the Bible and my promise to you is that as you read the Quran you'll find a world of difference but it is possible that some people are not familiar with the Bible I often think that when people like Sam come up here and they preach to us that the Bible is 100 the word of God they're not quite familiar with the Bible I would like to point out to you that in fact if a book if a book describes history by gratuitously including sexual imagery those parts of that book cannot be the word of God and I would say that the Bible often does this and one place in which it does this and I'd have Sam read that out for you is in the Book of Ezekiel in chapter 23. so I would ask Sam as he's asked me a few questions I would ask Sam when he comes up here next time to read for us from Ezekiel chapter 23 starting with verse number one going all the way to verse number 21. and if not that much then start from verse 11. and if he doesn't have time for that much start from just just read verses 20 and 21. we'll be okay and in fact why don't you read this from this children's Bible so that folks can be sure what is there in the children's Bible Young Explorers Bible New International Version I'll leave that with you you'll be here when you come back just read first from that so now in some folks how much time do I have one minute and some what I've shown in fact is that although the Quran speaks very positively about the Bible it also tells us where the Bible has gone wrong but on behold the Quran gives us a very positive way of looking at the Bible the Quran is not here to condemn the Bible but the Quran is here to introduce light you do not introduce light by driving away the darkness but you introduce light by turning on the switch and this is what the Quran does the Quran did not come condemning the Christians and the Jews and what they believe in but introducing the light and where it became necessary the Quran made itself clear on the other hand if we want to find out tonight which is the book of God just read the two and you will find that the Quran is that book of God on October 31st last year I'll never forget the date a young woman a Canadian woman came up to me and she decided to embrace Islam and after I gave her the opening words that brings a person into Islam I asked her what made you decide to become a Muslim and Sarah this young Canadian woman said to me when I read the Quran tears flowed down my eyes and I realized that this is the word of God I'd invite you to read the book of God foreign [Applause] now we will take a 20 minute break for the Maghrib prayer for the Muslims and we'll come back exactly at 8 15 for our session inshallah okay now we will have 10 minutes for Mr Sam shamoon for his first rebuttal Sam Shimon first of all I want to say in the limited time that I have I want to extend my apologies to any Muslims if you perceive I'm being offensive that's not my intention but in a debate like this we must Wrangle up the points and speak some things that might be difficult for the other parties with that said I only have 10 minutes in rebuttal but I invite you to come to answering Dash islam.org where all the points that shabbir Ali brought up went on today on the web refuting Point by Point what he said because in 10 minutes I won't be able to address all now he asked me to read Ezekiel 23 verse 20 to 21 if I'm correct I will read it and then I have a passage in the Quran I will read on behalf of shabir and I want to ask him if he'll show this to his daughter Ezekiel 23 verse 20 to 21. Bill 23 verse 20 to 21 there she was she lusted after her Lazarus whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emissions was like that of horses so you longed for the lewdness of your youth when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breast fondled now shabir wants to throw this out for a shock IFA basically he thinks that Christians who read this passage will be shooken up if that's the case then he's going to have to toss up the Quran because according to Allah in Paradise he'll have 70 hurries and this is the description surely for the God-fearing awaits a place of security Gardens and Vineyards and maidens with swelling breasts like of age and a cup overflowing would you read this to your daughter secondly he mentions about the Holy Spirit overshadowing Jesus Christ and then he went into the deity of Christ the debate is not Jesus Divinity or not it's the Quran or the Bible so your red herrings will not work tonight we can address that on another night and I will challenge you to the debate is Jesus God and is Muhammad a prophet let's debate those points let's not throw out red herrings and the Apostle Paul addresses shabbir when he says to the pure all things are pure but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure because their very minds and consciences are corrupt for someone to read the gospel and come up with perverted thoughts that's a problem with his mind not the scripture that's inspired by a holy God if we're going to talk about variance brother shabbir we will have a field day with the Quran and its thousands of variants in fact go on the answering Islam website and you'll find a book called The Perfect Quran or was it so a made to appear unto them the author documents from micro fish the thousands of variants that exist between the manuscript of the Quran and Tashkent with the printed quranic text today I quoted to him IBN Umar who said you do not have all of the Quran intact the fact of the matter folks is no document of antiquity has come down variant free without corruption but the Bible is Superior in that it has thousands of manuscripts where we can see where these variants took place but what about the Quran the few manuscripts you have have thousands of variants and instead of burning Bibles Christians died to preserve them or as uthman burned quranic codices so it was a god-believing Muslim who burned the word of Allah whereas it was godfreying Christians who were dying for the book of God then he quotes to me chapter 5 verse 48 Muhammad Ali and I expected shabbir to have read my materials and rebuttals to this he talks about words having different meanings in different contexts one of the names of Allah is Muhammad does that mean Allah exposes corruption and preserves intact what remains pure Muhammad means different things and different contexts and in the consensus of Muslim translators today and in the past they understood the term to mean confirming and safeguarding the Bible in fact I have an appendix and citation from albaidawi and by thou he commentating on the verse says that muhammadin means that the Quran safeguards does not expose corruption to the biblical text he still has not refuted the fact that in the Quran the Bible is called zipper reminder that's which Allah swore to preserve he hasn't addressed that hopefully in your 10 minutes you will so I can come back and rebut you then he mentions the fact that a Canadian comes up to him and converted to Islam I have a young lady here who asks personally to be mentioned by name who was a Muslim who now worships Jesus as their lord and savior and There She Goes screw this proves absolutely nothing all it proves is trying to shock the audience into being shaken by your comments which prove nothing at all then he talks about other aspects of the Bible that he would not show to his daughter would you show the verse in the Quran where it says that women can be beat by their husbands in Islam and I have the commentators and the Hadith of your Prophet where one woman who was beaten and had a green Mark came to Muhammad and instead of saying let your husband come back and we will rebuke him for that act he goes well Allah has condone that so be it what do you do with that if you're going to talk about these points let's debate these points topic by topic subject by subject let's not throw out red herrings especially I only have 10 minutes to rebut everything you've thrown out what is my time by the way five minutes all right he mentioned Jeremiah 8 8. and interestingly I've already responded to this Jeremiah is not saying that the scribes corrupted the text how do we know because in the very book of Jeremiah he appeals to the Torah and commands the Jews to follow it how could he if he believed it was corrupt Daniel chapter 9 quoting Jeremiah proceeds to quote the law of Moses knowing full well of Jeremiah 8 8 and he never made the connection that Jeremiah 8 8 was teaching corruption to the text that's your interpretation imposed on the text thirdly the Lord Jesus himself as the Quran testifies confirmed the Torah in his possession and it does not mean that he exposed corruption to it and affirmed what remained intact that's again your interpretation one that's not consistent with the Hadith then I quoted one that's not consistent with the fact that the Quran tells Muhammad if you are in doubt ask those who had the Revelation before you in Surah 10 94. now I've heard badui's interpretation it's not speaking of Muhammad it's speaking of unbelievers to verify that God does speak to men and not just send Angels irrespective the very fact that Allah would tell people go to the people of the book means that he believed the book was uncorrupt and if you came to me I tell you discard the Quran and believe in the Bible and accept Jesus as your lord and savior so do as Surah 1094 tells you don't correct my scripture come and I will inform you according to your own revelation that's what the Quran teaches so far you have addressed none of the points hopefully in your 10 minutes you can do so and then he talks about God repenting one of the names of Allah isab he repents does that mean Allah changes his mind using your logic we would agree that Allah also changes his mind because responds accordingly to the actions of his creatures when they repent or if they persist in sin and he brings judgment upon them he talks about God being refreshed if you read the scripture in its context Brother shabbir Ali you would realize that the Bible uses many human ascriptions to describe the incomprehensible nature of God on our finite level much like the Quran talking about God repenting much like the Quran saying that Allah has eyes and hands and that so on and so forth now we would agree with you that Allah also repents and he has a physical body much like you're trying to argue against the Bible so far those are all the points that I was able to muster up he went very fast for me in 20 minutes but that's okay we'll have another occasion to address these points how much time I have brother one minute I'll give him that minutes to adjust the points thank you very much inshallah I won't need it I don't think so now as it starts by reading the verse and then he Compares that with the verse from the Quran but I wonder how many people really think that these two verses are comparable what he said was there is a verse in the Quran which speaks of women have swelling breasts and that's comparable with the verse which he read which said that a certain woman lusted after men who had members the size of that and whose emission was the extent of that like horses and donkeys and that is similar to saying that a woman has swelling breasts moreover the passage which she reads from the Quran doesn't actually mean that the verse which is looking at is from Surah alun which says you asked me would I teach that to my daughter she has memorized it all of my kids have memorized it in fact I will take you to the school where my kids have attended and I'll show you the kids this High have memorized it and they're studying that and understanding it kawaiib actually refers to attractive women and that is promised to men in Paradise yes we're not ashamed to say that the Quran has promised men to have women in paradise and that helps us to avoid having women here outside of marriage because we know we're going to have it there but those who think they're not going to have it there are often having it right here foreign ER memorized the verse which you've read here and I want to know how many people have memorized the verse which was read here from the Bible on the other hand how many people have memorized the first speech was read from the Quran there you go how many people would teach that to their kids yes we teach that to our kids in fact many young kids all over the world have memorized the entire Quran we recite the Quran Without Shame now the Divinity of Jesus is that a red herring no we're looking at the contents and teachings of the scriptures and if we see that the scripture teaches something which is plainly wrong we have a right to say that as far as we're dealing with this topic the scripture is wrong that wrong part cannot be the word of God look if any man comes and tells me that he has one bucket of water and another bucket of water and a third bucket of water and together the three are just one bucket of water like the first one I would say this is not right so if you bring me a book and you sure look it's in that book I would say the book is not right and that is the very point so if you say Jesus is divine that means he is God but if he is God how is he also man Christians say that he's completely God and completely man at the same time I promise you he can't be both and the book Common Sense Christianity we read that to say that Jesus was completely God and completely man at the same time is as nonsensical as saying I saw a square circle such a thing cannot exist now his challenge to me is to debate him on the topic is Jesus God or and is Muhammad a prophet now would I accept that challenge well for me to have a debate folks I want to have a kind of academic discussion I don't want a kind of discussion where somebody said yeah amen and somebody said yeah Allahu Akbar I want people to think about the issues and I want to to have a debate where Sam will come here and he will recognize the difference between you know something like that of horses and something like that of donkeys and between a woman having swelling breasts so if Sam can come up and recognize that difference yes I'm willing to to have a debate with with Sam on a number of different topics in the future uh after mutual agreement now he's all the Christian attempts the Bible is still being corrected and edited now you might tell me that the one by Barbara Allen is the Greek text which you rely upon because that's the text that stands Behind The New International Version Bible it is now in its 27th Edition do you know that it keeps changing whereas the Quran on the other hand has been preserved by Muslims right from the very start now why did Usman burn the Quran because right from the very start people were trying to preserve the Quran but the best of human effort sometimes fails people may not know the full extent of the Quran people may make mistakes as they copy and I see some of you laughing as though you don't know textual history of the Bible right in front of Sam there is a book entitled the text of the New Testament it's transmission corruption and restoration by Bruce Metzger giving you all the textual history of how errors occur when people try to write things so what Usman did was he made sure that the one text which was agreed upon by the companions of the Prophet the people who lived and walked with him and heard from him directly and knew the contents of the Quran once that was prepared and approved upon he ordered that the others should be burned because they may contain mistakes they may contain variant readings and rather than confuse the public give them the one pure word of God and promote that one now what's wrong with that if Christians had a text which is approved by the Disciples of Jesus they would defend that with their very lives and I wouldn't blame them but we do not have such a text folks now Muslims rightly defend the Quran as the word of God After Earth man had burned the rest he burned the rest not to destroy the word of God but to preserve the word of God and we have that preserved word of God today I can hold up this book and say the Arabic text here is the word of God 100 I would like Sam to come up and hold up a book and tell me that is the word of God 100 I bet you he couldn't do it if he's honest now he said how is the Quran Muhammad and I think he is how is the Quran Muhammad on the previous scriptures he says well that means correcting and also approving and then he says well look Allah is Muhammad also so does that mean that Allah is approving the truth and correcting the wrong yes now tell us what you said and I'll answer that now he spoke about the conversion of a certain person notice that the person that I mentioned that converted actually converted after reading and that is the quranic message read learn think but if you mention somebody that just simply converted that doesn't really help anything does it people might convert for a number of reasons to a number of different things but are we converting to what makes sense or something that doesn't make sense that has to be at rest now it says a woman can be beaten according to the Glorious Quran now do you want to get into a long discussion that's the what is the position of women in the Quran in the Bible I mean we can do that yes well all right the Book of Revelation chapter 14 Verses 4 and 5 shows that women will not enter Paradise now you know the Muslims are clapping the Christians are laughing the Muslims believe and the Christians don't believe but look both of you whether Muslim or Christian don't believe me go and read the text it says 144 000 people will go to heaven only these and they will be virgins who have not been defiled by women now maybe Sam has an answer for that look if you want to compare the position of the women in the Quran and position of women in the Bible you'll find such a vast difference I told you before people do not know the contents of their Bibles and they come here and tell us that the Bible is 100 the word of God you might say 99.9 because look you've already rejected this verse you won't believe it you know it's wrong and that proves that the Bible is not 100 the word of God now he mentioned the Hadith but he should mention the source of that Hadith and this is often a problem in this kind of debates that people mention things which are not from authentic sources if you don't just believe anything that anybody said but it must come from an authentic Source what about Jeremiah chapter 8 verse 8 is that my interpretation of it no in the living Bible or the Bible in living English and the preface it says that Jeremiah here in chapter 8 verse 8 is speaking about the fact that the text of the Torah in his day was so corrupt so corrupt that he can say that falsehood had been deliberately put into it and he said that it would be it would be hard for us to prove that the text we have today is not the same one that Jeremiah Was condemning so it's not my interpretation Jesus confirmed the Torah how do you know that because you read it in the gospels how do you know the gospels are true because the Bible is true but that's the very point we're debating tonight and we're showing that in fact the Bible is not 100 true now he says well we should ask those who receive the book and they will tell us the truth but no the Quran says it doesn't say believe the Allah it tells you just question them so when we question them we find out what we're saying and we also see where they're right and where they are wrong now he says that Allah is tawab and that means he's repenting no it means forgiving just check the dictionary have you the hands we are modern dictionary notice also that the Quran in addition to saying that Allah is doesn't say that he changed his mind or that it made him sorry or he grieved in his heart because he had made man the Bible says that the Quran doesn't so you have to understand the difference between the two statements make her mention of that and then we'll look at more debates refreshed what do you mean that God refreshed you have to explain all right God has eyes so he sees but what do you mean that he refreshed was he tired out over the weekend and then by Monday morning he's fresh for work God is not like that once you realize that God is not like that you realize that there is an error in the Bible and you need to come back to the Quran the word of God okay thank you very much about the Chevrolet now Brother Sam will have five minutes for his rebuttal it's kind of disappointing to hear the kind of information being passed he says that the Hadith I quote it is weak no go to answering Dash islam.org and go see it for yourself I challenge you secondly he talks about Revelation 14 and he's quoting a Jehovah Witness argument it's like me quoting Nation of Islam against him that doesn't work read the context it's speaking of 144 000 of Israel who were specifically chosen for a task but if you go back to the first reference in Revelation 7 after mentioning the 144 000 this is what you conveniently forgot Revelation 7 verse 9 all the way to 10. after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count from every nation tribe people and language standing Before the Throne in front of the Lamb they were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands and they cried out in a loud voice salvation Belongs To Our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb that's the cannot who spoke my scripture secondly he talks about Co-op and what it means I didn't give this interpretation one of your Premier Muslim commentators even kathir said that Co-op means swelling breasts and then you're trying to say well it's a distinction and a different meaning from Ezekiel you're exactly right whereas Ezekiel it's metaphorical and spiritual talking about Judah and samaria's apostasy and idolatry here Allah speaking literally you're going to have sex debates in Paradise something you need to deal with and then again he quotes to me a Bible from some Scholars and he thinks this is binding on me on Jeremiah 8 8. it's the same as if I quote Rashid Khalifa his translation of the kunda Quran a Muslim who says that Surah chapter 9 verse 128 and 129 was added that's your Muslim uh that's not me what we must do is examine the light of these statements in light of their presuppositions the people that he's quoting most often are anti-supernaturalist in fact I've documented in my response to his website that the very criteria they use against the Bible I've had a field day against the Quran to show it's not the word of God go to answering Dash islam.org and see it for yourself all the latest rebuttals against shabbir Ali are online and I challenge him respond and we'll respond back and if you want to debate the deity of Christ let's debate it not in 10 minutes throw out a red herring about why three cannot be won and you also misinformed the audience about what we believe about God we don't believe in three pales we believe in one being eternally existent in three persons whether you understand it that's your problem not ours it's revelation we accept it because God is a Triune being and let's debate the issue and let's be honest and let's be fair let's debate is Muhammad a prophet which I've challenged you before and now publicly let's take the challenge and let's hold it in an academic setting with more time in the rebuttals not 10 minutes five minutes so you can throw out your points and end up last and give the impression that you've won the debate that doesn't work I invite every one of you go back to answering Dash islam.org and read the context of the passages read the articles go do your homework and I agree with shabir here it's not about winning or losing a debate it's about stimulating you to go search the truth and you'll see where the truth lies and I have no doubt you'll worship Jesus as your lord and savior when you do that that's awesome now brother shabbir will have his five minutes of river challenge [Music] as the debate Narrows down to a close we come to see what are the main threads of argument in this debate we've seen that Sam started out by saying that the Quran actually approves of the Bible and therefore Muslims should not criticize the Bible Muslims should not say that anything is wrong with the Bible what we have shown instead is in fact although the Quran confirms the truth which is there in the Bible the Quran also clarifies some issues that leaves doubt from the Bible and the Quran in fact correct some of the misinformation that is there in the Bible for example when the Bible talks about Solomon disbelieving and we realize that Solomon was not a disbeliever the Quran is correcting that whereas in fact the Bible goes out of its way to describe sexual content like lot and his two daughters the Quran gives us just the bear truth about lot and does not include all of this uh you know everybody likes a little bit of sex and blood and gore in the story The Quran does not go into that sort of thing now the quranian both confirms and corrects the Bible today if somebody wants to find out what really is the word of God you just read the two texts together and see that the moral teaching which is there in the Bible is also there in the Quran so that the Quran does not lose anything from the truth which is there in the Bible on the other hand whereas the Bible has accretions the word of man that has crept into it over time the Quran actually leaves that out and gives us just simply the pure word of God now if we go to some of the minor is answering Islam website a source of information about Hadith is that where Scholars of Hadith turn for information No in fact when we have a debate here it is I think pointless to say well I have the information somewhere else no folks when you come to a case you have to bring your evidence and present it here this is why we have equal time but it is a diversion from the equality of the time to say well I have it in a book somewhere or my father knows that or you know my friend told me that bring the evidence here 144 000. is that my misunderstanding of the text [Music] it is possible that the writer of the Revelation did mean to exalt celibacy and virginity the likelihood is that he was writing about 1890 when this tendency was already in the church if that is so we will have to lay this passage on one side because tested by the rest of the New Testament it is not a correct statement of Christian ethic this author is saying they got we have to put that passage aside it's not correct for Christians a Muslim no daily Study Bible series William Barclay Book of Revelation now you might shake your heads William Barclay is a man of accomplishment and I often have Christians tell me well you know William Barkley and then I tell him what William Barkley says and they say no no not William Barkley will there be sex in Paradise yes now I asked the Christians what will you do in Paradise play the harp and sing hymns in fact when Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God he spoke about a kingdom which in some ways resemble our present Kingdom and if you think the sons of God in heaven do not have sex then what were they doing in Genesis chapter six meeting with the daughters of of men and producing the Giants of old no there will be sex in Paradise there will be food in Paradise we'll have this on a different existence it will not be the same existence here where there is a foul smell and where there are negative effects that come from it the pleasure will remain but not the pain now what about Kawaii it doesn't matter if a Muslim said that it is true that kawab refers to women who have come to that age where their breasts have swollen as opposed to young girls who do not have that it is a word in Arabic depicting this level of age of growth of puberty of teenagerhood and that is what is Promised for men in Paradise that is the word it says that the men will have Kawaii they will have this kind of woman which means attractive women what's wrong with saying that men will have attractive women on the other hand Ezekiel says that this woman had sex with these men whose members were like that why do you have to find out how the members were like which author was finding out what the members of the men were like and the remissions were like and writing that in the book of God you tell me that this is the book of God no I don't think so folks and he said I produced that for shock effect but indeed the Christians are shocked they don't realize that something like that is there in their Bibles and they have to now except for a few who are shouting Hallelujah in the front now I have to leave at the end and come back to you in the next two a segment when we'll conclude this important debate thank you very much thank you this question answers yeah before we start the next uh session which is uh reversal by Sam shamoon 2.5 minutes I would like uh the volunteers to pass out the index cards so we could fill out the questions and uh after Sam's and the brother all these River chills I will announce uh the written answers inshallah and when you do write the written answers be specific just write one question and write down who do you want to answer the question yeah do raise your hands so the volunteers could come and pass the cards to you okay uh can you also um just go through that and tell them okay the the questions have to be written on the index cards not pre-made questions please okay now we will have Sam shamon which is 2.5 minutes of rebuttal first of all let me explain why we have a problem with sex in Paradise because our lord Jesus debunks it in Luke chapter 20 verse 34 all the way down to verse 36 he says Jesus replied the people of this age marry and are given in marriage but those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage they can no longer die for they are like the Angels that's why we have a problem with that and if you have 70 hurries for the males what about the women how many men will they have does Islam answer that thirdly when he mentions the fact that in Genesis chapter 6 the sons of God slept with women because they left their natural habitat and assumed human form read the context please he quotes William Barclay as if William Barclays a prophet and infallible that's a fallacy of appeal to Authority shabir give us proof within context for William Barclay's assertion he has none so that's a fallacy in argumentation by the way Robert Mori gives you his compliments on that going back to the subject at hand the reason why I mentioned answering Islam is not because I don't have the information it's with me but when you're going back five minutes 10 minutes 20 minutes you cannot compile all the information at the moment that's why I invited you to go to answering Islam and then he attacks answering Islam because he says they're not a Hadith expert well neither is he a Bible expert but he has a whole website trying to explain the Bible to Christians how does that work anyway let me leave you with this thought my intention was not to come and offend the Muslim Minds I was here to show share what I believe to be true and I use the sources that shabbir Ali believes to be the word of God to affirm that my book is the uncorrupt pure word of God which he still has not answered chapter 15 verse 9 he hasn't answered the rest of the passages which speak of an uncorrupt pure book available in the time of Muhammad which he appealed to and don't forget IBN when the Jews came to Muhammad they say Do you believe in this Torah we have certainly that means you're not following the Sunnah of your Prophet if not tell us why not may the Lord Jesus richly bless you and I pray that The God Who exists father son Holy Spirit Will convict your hearts to go back and read the truth because Christ is risen the tomb is empty and he is Lord and I challenged shabbir let's debate on that another night foreign could start collecting the cards and the people who do still want to write the questions they could raise their hands still all they will have his concluding 2.5 minutes I regret that as we come to the close of this debate the attitude with which we started out has not really changed and I hope that it will change for the future that we can think about the points being made it's easy to say amen and it's easy to say Allahu Akbar when your team seems to be winning but let not teams win let truth Prevail think about the ideas which are being discussed and think about how you might try to find out for the future whether these ideas are true or not what other evidence you might need where further can you research these items so think about the issues for yourself more importantly think about the evidence that is being produced for the positions taken here tonight for example Sam spoke about sex in Paradise he says Jesus debunks it but let's ask now how do we know that Jesus debunks it because the gospel says so but how do we know the gospel is true because the Bible is true but how do you know the Bible is true that's the very thing we're debating him here tonight and to assume it is true while we're debating it is to commit the fallacy known as begging the question now he said that people would be like Angels but then he agreed that the Angels came down into the form of man and had sex with women but if he's saying that that happens with angels and we are going to be like angels in heaven what's to stop us from having sex in heaven somehow the logic doesn't follow now he says William Barkley has no proof have you read William Barclay no you haven't how do you know he has no proof I I don't understand I don't understand how you know that William Barkley has no proof If you have not read William Barclay now what would women have in in Paradise they will have whatever they desire that is the quranic promise to them now whose website should we check he says well should we've got a website but notice I didn't say go check my website for the evidence I do not quote that way I quote respected authorities from Christian sources what about Surah 15 verse 9 what about the Hadith from Prophet I already answered that the Quran speaks positively the prophet speaks positively about the Bible where the Bible has true information but also negatively where the Bible has incorrect information he said it himself Allah is Muhammad he approves what is right and he corrects what is wrong okay thank you very much brother Chevrolet and Brother Sam shamon now what we'll have a short break by while me and the brother uh Samuel Norman we will check the questions and we will have alternate questions to each speaker inshallah nothing okay now we will start the question and answer session and these are the rules for the speakers the first question would be addressed to Brother Ali he will have three minutes to respond to the question and two minutes will be taken by Sam Shamu as we battle to the answer of severely and vice versa belong to the question and the first question to president is in the Quran we verify objectively if so how the Bible could be confirmed in the year 2000 God suspends the Earth over nothing job 2.67 Egypt will never again exalt itself at the Q 29 15. now am I being hurt yeah all right the question is to to try and see how we can find verification for either the Quran or the Bible and here we have some verification for the Bible that the Bible contains some truth here is a true statement indeed we have confirmation for the Quran as well the Quran has been shown in modern times to be very scientifically accurate to the amazement of modern scientists for example Dr Keith Moore University of Toronto Professor has found that in his subject of embryology there are statements in the Quran that Amaze him because he realizes that certain things which were discovered only in modern times are already stated in the Quran as though this information were known but it was not known prior to the discovery of the microscope and he thinks that this is an evidence that the Quran is a revelation from the almighty God supporting him on this kind of conclusion is for example Dr TV and Prasad from the University of Winnipeg and Dr Jolie Simpson Dr Marshall Johnson and several professors and Scholars of embryology worldwide for example Dr tejata tejasin at the University of Chiang Mai in Thailand attending a Saudi conference in which they were discussing this finally stood up and said it is time to say rasulullah the information overmed him so much that he decided to embrace Islam he found that this information could not have come from a human mind moreover the Quran itself as we examine it we realized that it came through an unlettered man he could not have been the author of this book moreover this man suffered he must have been sincere so that a non-muslim writer like William Montgomery watt concludes that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was sincere he wasn't lying to the people saying that a book came to him and when we look at his psychology we realize that the book couldn't have come from him because the book speaks to him addresses him and on occasion even criticizes him rishita what the book says about the past in history is confirmed so that the book is true what the book says about the future is also confirmed for example the Quran describing a certain battle which had nothing to do with the prophet Muhammad himself peace be upon him between the Romans and the Persians actually gave correct information concerning that the future unfolded exactly the way that the Quran said that it would who could have predicted something like that even the non-believers were amazed that such a prediction can be made and then the prediction was fulfilled moreover the Quran challenges people to find errors in the book and nobody's been able to come up with something which is a genuine error in the Quran the Quran even challenged people to come up with a book like it to prove that it can be done and nobody is able to come up with something like the Quran to prove that it is humanly possible to produce such a book I think all of these arguments going together plus what we have presented here tonight showing that compared with the Bible the Quran is a restatement of the original truth that came through all of God's prophets over time all of these form a strong cumulative argument to show that the Quran really is what it claims to be the word of God and nothing else and those wreaths three minutes should be here throughout about 50 points for me to address let me try to cover each specific point first of all scientific accuracy is not an indication of inspiration because the Devil Himself is an immaterial being and can see what happens in a mother's womb that's first secondly many have taken exception to the statements made by Keith Moore and have documented from early writings that there was schools throughout Arabia teaching galanic medicine and if you compare what gallon says to what the Quran says it's virtually identical so there was nothing new in the Quran what's new is the misinterpretation of quranic words to force it to agree with modern scientific data and if you want more information as shabir was telling me don't talk about my father or my mother having it go to answering Islam they have it that's it yeah it's a question for Sam Sam should we rely on the human reasoning to determine this Divine word of God should we rely on human reasoning to determine the Divine word of God you have three minutes all right sponsors because we have to arrive at truth somehow and in order to test the claims of the Bible in the Quran we have to have some methods of testing but unfortunately when we do so we impose a fallible human method on God's infallible truth so this becomes very difficult so I agree that in order to arrive at certain truths that humans can take and reassure their hearts that either the Bible or the Quran is true we need some type of testing but those testing and those methods are not binding on either the Bible or the Quran because the Bible and the Quran if either one of them is the truth of God cannot be proven or disproven by human efforts because God exists apart from Human arguments he doesn't depend on our arguments to prove his existence or his word and so I am divided over this issue that's mine I think that the existence of God cannot be absolutely proved and it follows I think from that that the the question of whether a book really is the word of God cannot be absolutely proved however I think that we can Marshal good arguments good reasonable arguments to show that God does exist and we can say that on balance it is more reasonable to believe that God does exist than that he does not exist furthermore I think that we can Marshal good Arguments for a book being the word of God and we can conclude that it is more reasonable to believe that that book is the word of God rather than to believe that it is not the word of God and I've given some very good reasons for the Quran in this particular way I think also that it is possible to disprove a book as the word of God in other words there can be some objective Criterion whereby if we start by knowing what God is and we say God is like this we can say well this cannot be his word so when Muslims and Christians come together and we say that God is not the author of Confusion And we agree on that that then if there is confusion and contradiction in a text we should say that this text is not the word of God and that we can conclude if we say for example that God would not describe things you with a gratuitous mention of sexual imagery and we find that in the book then we can say this is not the word of God at least in that part so while we might not have a way of absolutely proving that a text is the word of God if we start with certain assumptions about who God is we can determine that a certain text is not his word okay another question for about the shabbir Ali three minutes how was the Quran originally recorded first I should say that the Quran has been preserved right from the very beginning to this day by two methods one is through written records and two is by memorization I already mentioned that my daughter has memorized a certain passage from the Quran and that young kids have memorized the entire Quran this is a tradition that goes on today and dates back to 1400 years ago the Quran has a unique history in the context of world religious scriptures because right from the very start it was recognized to be the word of God by its followers whether they were mistaken or not is a different question but they believe this from the start that it is coming from Muhammad as a conduit bringing the Revelation from God and because they believed it to be the word of God they took the greatest pains to make sure that this book would be preserved both in writing and in memory but in the early days memory was the most important manner in which the text was preserved the Arabic text is a continental text and if we rely on the writing alone one may not know how to pronounce the text and this is given rise to many various in Reading over time some of the variations which Sam tried to point out to me when he gave me the book of Arbury I've already read Arbury and I've seen that he points out minor variations like instead of saying Maliki yamidin someone says one means owner of the day of judgment the other one means king of the day of judgment and to Muslims one does not make any difference than the other both to Muslims are acceptable readings but Muslims memorize the text and by memorizing they preserve the text in such a way that even if some people died out or even if some books were burnt or destroyed the text would remain earlier Sam mentioned that with the dying off for people in the Battle of yamama some parts of the text was lost forever but this is impossible to contemplate because right from the very start the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was preaching the Quran out publicly he was reciting it from the pulpit he was reciting it in the public prayers just as we have done here tonight and the masses of the Muslims were hearing that and they knew the content of the Quran it is impossible to claim that some people died and the Quran died with them it is more reasonable to assume that whoever made this claim is mistaken himself and this is what in fact the father of that man himself had claimed who made these claims said that the Quran was lost and his father said my son is lying in response to that very simply if memorization preserve the Quran then why was it that memorizers writing from memory wrote conflicting qurans with some having additional verses that the others did not so memorization did not preserve the Quran He also mentioned earlier that uthman standardized the quranic texts and I believe he alluded to the fact to the approval of all that's also false because IBN Masood did not accept uthman's resention of the Quran he said that for the people of uthman they can use it but the people in my community will follow my reading furthermore I also documented that one of the memorizers called the master of quranic reciters had two extra surahs that he claimed was revealed from God IBN Abbas agreed where are those surahs finally IBN Masood who claimed to have memorized over 70 surahs in the presence of the prophet of Islam without error claimed that chapter 1 of the Quran and chapter 113 and 114 although revealed were not to be part of the text itself in recitation and only had 111 chapters so if you're talking about memorization far from it they couldn't get it right from the beginning thank you Sam uh the question is for you does the Quran teach that Muhammad sinned and was Bewitched you got it yes the Quran does teach that Muhammad sin in such places as chapter 40 verse 55 chapter 48 verse 1 and 2 as well as chapter 47 verse 19. about him being Bewitched that's in sahih bukhari volume 4 number 400 it says that Allah's messenger was Bewitched now some Muslims will say that no when the Quran is mentioning that Muhammad sin it's not really speaking of him it's addressing his community Surah 47 verse 19 will not allow for that and yes the authentic Islamic Traditions affirm he did fall under the spell of a Jew and needed Gabriel to reveal Surah 1 13 and 114 to break him free from that spell my question is this if you look at the biblical prophets not one of them ever fell under the inspiration or bewitchment of Satan how is it that Muhammad God's final messenger did foreign is referring to actually speak about God commanding the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to seek forgiveness for his sins and Muslims agree that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as a human being like the rest of us do have sin and he said himself every child of Adam is a sinner but the best of Sinner is the he who repents after having committed sins and he advises followers to seek forgiveness of God often and he said that even I seek the Forgiveness of God 70 times a day now of course it doesn't mean that he sins 70 times a day deliberately but as a human being he realizes that we are fallible and we have to return to God for his forgiveness and the promise of God is that he does forgive sins and his promise in the Quran is that he has forgiven the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him for his sins past and future moreover the question is how could he be Bewitched now what about previous prophets they will not Bewitched but previous prophets even claimed that they were deceived by God himself well for example Jeremiah in the Bible says that the Lord Yahweh has deceived me and I was deceived so if you want to make comparisons we should be very clear what we're speaking about often Sam is speaking about the Quran without knowledge about what he's speaking about yes where are these other two surahs I'll tell you where they are Allah this is what he calls the Surah and he's saying that this is missing from the Muslims Muslims are still reciting that today but Muslims generally agree that this is not part of the quranic text he says what about Surah Fatiha and the last two surahs who has a problem with that said anything is wrong with that he said no it is part of the review text but we're not going to keep it in the Quran this is IBN masood's misunderstanding we would say because the consensus of the Muslims is that these are part of the Quran but do we have a problem with it no to include it or not to include it no muslim disbeliefs in the content but what about Mark the last chapter of Mark some people tore it off suggested by the interpreters one volume commentary because they had a problem with it and and they put in instead something else which Christians are reading today okay question four by the shabir Ali how can you refute the inerrancy of the Bible when the Bible was written over a period of 1400 years by 40 different authors and yet no contradictions about a singular message of the Bible three minutes well in fact the message of the Bible is contradictory and it is not a red herring to introduce the Trinity here because the message of one part of the Bible is that Jesus is the son of God and from that he is promoted to God here and then from that people say God is a trinity and that in fact goes away from the message of one God right from the very beginning in the Old Testament and I'll in fact right all the way to the end in the New Testament yes the Bible does contradict itself in its main core teachings when the Old Testament taught that in order to be forgiven by God you sacrifice animals and and tells you that human sacrifice is forbidden and then the New Testament tells you that God sacrificed his son God would have done the very thing which he said is wrong and that's not right now the Bible is also self-contradictory in many things when we come to matter of fact for example the Bible tells us about a certain pool in First Kings chapter 4 verse 26 it tells us about a pool that is measures 10 qubits in diameter and 30 cubits and 30 cubits in circumference and you know that's impossible if it's 10 cubits in diameter it has to be 10 times pi circumference will be 31.62 something so it does in fact contradict itself on matter of fact several verses of the Bible contradict several others on just simply the numbers that it gives you for example how old was Jehovah Kim when he started to Reign how old was this person and so on so many different contradictions but what is more important to notice is that over time the gospels have contradicted each other in presenting Jesus Christ so that over time the image of Jesus from Mark to John has changed and so that in John Jesus is elevated even if you compare Mark with Matthew you see how Matthew has changed the story so that where Jesus referred to himself as master in a certain place he is refers to himself as Lord in the same place in the new gospel whereas somebody calls Jesus Rabbi in a certain place in the same place in another gospel the person calls him Lord you see that there's a development in the story where Jesus refers to God as God in the earlier gospel Jesus refers to God as father in the later gospel in the very same saying and obviously the story has changed where somebody in fact didn't believe in Jesus they didn't know what to to believe and their hearts were hardened it says in the same episode you go to Matthew's gospel and you see that the story has changed so that they worshiped him so that from one gospel to another there is a development in the story Bruce Metzger for example has given many such examples to show if you compare Mark with Matthew and Luke you see how Matthew and Luke using Mark have developed the story further along Christian lines changing the image of Jesus so that Jesus appears more powerful so that his weaknesses are hidden and so that Jesus on whom he peace appears more like the Christian depiction of him my response here's your response to pie read it secondly when he talks about the development of the gospels again if shabir had actually read my articles all these points have been refuted Mark is not presenting a low view of Christ nor is John giving us a high christological view in fact I document from Mark that the mark in Jesus is deity in flesh the problem is that he quotes verses out of their intended context and forces a contradiction upon the gospels and assumes that by making claims and not giving us any evidence but assertions well it was developed that he has proven his case furthermore no two gospel writers need to write the same thing about Jesus in order to be accurate descriptions of Christ an author can emphasize a different aspect of Christ to the exclusion of the other because they want to bring out a different area of his ministry and the whole point of Mark even though there's many explicit references to the deity of Christ is that Christ came to serve man not to be glorified as God because Christ's first mission was to die for Sinners and rise in glory then he'd be exalted because of the path of self-umilation he took and about contradictions in the Bible if shabir wants to play that game I can bring out for everyone contradiction I'll bring out one in the Quran let me give you one in chapter 41 verse 9 to 11 of the Quran if you add up the days it comes out to eight days of creation shabbir's explanation is that the two first days and the four concurrent days where the Quran mentions the Earth being created and then fashioned with all its nutrients are concurrent to give you six days now why is this a contradiction very simply if you read other surahs it says six days the problem with shabbir's interpretation of the passage is that he neglects the authentic Hadith and the interpretation of Muhammad which will not allow for his reconciliation Muhammad actually believed that the heaven the Stars the sun and moon was created after the Earth time up all right okay uh this is uh for Sam the Christians believe that Jesus peace be upon Him died for three days and then he was raised again my question is if Jesus Is God then who ran or operated the world when he was dead for three days hallelujah first of all the questioner is committing what we call the fallacy of false dilemma Christians do not believe Jesus is the only person who is God the question assumes that if Jesus died God died but actually we believe in a Triune God that's first so even if we were to say that Christ ceased to exist for three days the father and the Holy Spirit were still existing secondly Christ did not experience death in the sense of the questioner statement the questioner is assuming that death means non-existence Christ never cease to exist for those three days what happened was his body went into the tomb but his divine nature and human soul were still alive how do we know this John chapter 2 verse 19 down says destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up how can someone who is in non-existence raise himself up so he did not die in that sense because again in John's gospel that Jesus says something so spectacular as destroy this Temple and I will raise it back up again notice that in the earlier gospels Jesus went to the Cross submitting to the father but hesitant and praying to the father to save him in Matthew Mark Luke why is it in John's gospel he willingly offers himself now in Sam's own words he summarized for us the message of Mark and that shows you that the message of Mark is different than the message of the other gospels and the other gospels have now magnified Jesus beyond the recognition of the pure historical Jesus if you say that God didn't really die well then stop saying that God die for the sins of the world if you say that just the human body of Jesus died then say that Jesus the human being died now while he says we're committing the fallacy of false dilemma he is creating committing the fallacy of equivocation that is where you use an argument where a word refers to something and down below when somebody doesn't notice the word refers to something else so he starts off the word Jesus refers to a god man but later on this word Jesus refers only to a man and then when you ask again it refers to the God man again and one moment it refers to God the next moment it refers to the the Son of God the next moment it refers to both of them and the next moment it refers to the Trinity you have to Define your terms what is Jesus and then you have to ask did he die or not so what is Jesus is he God yes did he die yes did God die they say no foreign next question more index card would be distributed you could just raise your hands those who wants to write more questions I don't think we'll be able to handle the ones that we have so I think that my well you can you can bring it here but please mention uh whom do you want to ask because there are several here that they're there for both the speakers and we cannot entertain that so you please mention Sam or brother shabir very clearly okay now the question for Brother shabbir Ali explain whether salvation comes by following the Commandments or by following the Paul's advice that is just believe that salvation comes by thinking that Jesus Paid the bills this of course is part of the of the way in which the message of Jesus was distorted and changed over time so that the Bible does not preserve the accurate historical memory of what Jesus taught but actually preserves what people like Paul have taught over time today if you want to argue for this Doctrine you'll find the references to Romans to Galatians to First Corinthians writings of Paul you'd find very few writings or very few statements from Jesus to support the doctrine that Jesus came to die for the sins of the world in the earliest strata of data concerning Jesus notice that we're not saying that Mark is a Muslim gospel we're agreeing that Mark says certain things which is very Christian but notice the trend that we're talking about and this is the point that Sam Actually misses Sam has to show that there is no Trend in development Sam has to say that everything that John's gospel says Mark says and John's gospel does not please Jesus on a higher plane than Mark's gospel places him but I bet you he can never prove that it is in John's gospel for example that Jesus says I lay down my life for my sheep whereas in the early three gospels he went submissively but praying to the father to save him from that why is it that in John's gospel he doesn't pray to be saved from the cross no it is true he doesn't have to say the same thing in all of the gospels but why does he in John's gospel says and what should I say father save me from this hour no it is for this reason I came to this hour you see the story has changed so that in John's gospel Jesus deliberately came to die for the sins of the world but if we take that doctrine that he deliberately came to die for the sins of the world you have all kinds of problems if Jesus died for my sins then I am automatically saved whether I believe in him or not but you say no you have to believe in him but why if Jesus Paid my debt then the Creditor can no longer claim my debt if Jesus died as a ransom for me then I am automatically freed and if Jesus died as a ransom to whom is the ransom paid if to the father then he looks cruel if to the devil he looks powerful so no solution really works the best solution is to go back to the teachings of the Bible where you find out that in the Old Testament people were forgiven for their sins God said do this and you will be forgiven and the people did it what do you think they weren't forgiven now if they were already forgiven and now Jesus comes and dies for them then the penalty is paid twice and that would not be right so no matter how you look at it the doctrine that Jesus died for the sins of the world is very wrong and the Quran comes now to reinstate the true teachings of Jesus telling us that in fact we have personal responsibility surely you will err you will be at fault you will make mistakes but when you make mistakes God is ready to pick you up and to nurture you and to make you wholesome just ask God for forgiveness if you wrong other people repair the wrong that you have done for it to them ask God for forgiveness and God will forgive you what is the story of The Prodigal Son teach you that somebody dies for your sins no The Prodigal Son story teaches you from Luke chapter 15 that when you come back to the father he welcomes you with open arms just like he welcomes he welcomed that prodigal son who disobeyed him so we should return to God ask his forgiveness and be saved fighter yeah in response to Mark I've written a response here you go and that's for you secondly in response to the prodigal son I guess shabir didn't read carefully because the Prodigal Son belonged to the family's house so he was a son by birth and inheritance but not everyone is the Son of God because Jesus himself said some of you are the children of the devil and if you want to know who Jesus died for read the gospels and I'll give you Matthew not John because Matthew in your words is less developed than John Matthew 1 21 it says you shall name him Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins furthermore you attacked Paul and giving the impression to the Christians and Muslims that this view that you hold to is a view that stems from Islam that's the impression you give you do not inform the audience that in Syrah rasulullah the life of Muhammad page 653 quoting Muhammad IBN says that Paul was a legitimate messenger of the teaching of Christ and a traveling companion of Peter so the early Muslims disagree with you not with me thank you Sam uh the question is for you why do you use Quran to prove that Bible is the word of Allah quote-unquote God I thought I stated my purpose in quoting the Quran in the beginning I do believe that the Quran is has some historical value it tells me what early Muslims believed and I used it to show that shabbir's belief is not compatible with the earliest Muslim records the earliest Muslim records such as the Quran for to me the Quran is not inspired truth its historical record of what Muslims believe there we find that they assume the Bible's the uncorrupt word of God and then try to verify the message of the Quran by appealing to the Bible but there's only one problem shabbir accused me of assuming the Bible in my debate no the Quran assumes the Bible as the uncorrupt word of God it is shabbir who assumes that the Quran is true therefore if the Quran contradicts the Bible then the Bible is wrong it's the other way around shabir the Quran affirms the Bible's the unprop word of God so anytime the Quran contradicts the Bible that means this cannot be from God because God would know what's in the Bible therefore a human author wrote it and did not know what was in the contents of the Bible so you've assumed what you have yet to prove all right first uh before I answer uh Sam I think you have to stop giving me these papers across the desk here because they're very the very purpose of having so many minutes allotted to us is that we should express our points here to the people not that we you know put it in the paper and pretend we have a nice argument there but to bring it forward and otherwise we'll toss books back and forth now what does the Quran assume concerning the Bible I've already shown that that whereas the Quran does speak about the Bible containing truth the Quran at the same time shows that certain things in the Bible is not true and it's not from God for example the statement that people of all disbelieved who said that Jesus was the son of God and people who are following that are just simply following the statement of those who disbelieved who was the first person to claim publicly that Jesus was the son of God if we go by the New Testament in the book of Acts you will see in chapter 9 verse 20 that Paul went into the synagogue and straight away he started to preach that Jesus Christ was the son of God what was the preaching of the disciples before Paul the original disciples of Jesus according to Acts of the Apostles went around from house to house and they didn't stop preaching that Jesus was the Christ notice that they preached that Jesus was the Christ but Paul preached that Jesus Christ was the son of God he moved the title Christ from its right place and the Quran says they changed the word words from their right places now from the quranic perspective Paul is not a true disciple of Jesus he did not continue the teachings that Jesus left behind and the teachings that he were claiming are teachings of disbelievers of old now if some Muslim scholar got the information that Jesus had some disciples one of them is Paul and he wrote that in his book that is not a proof that all Muslims are supposed to believe that Muslims are supposed to be academic people they study the Quran they studied writings of the ancient Scholars they see what they said and they make their judgments concerning that so the Quran is the word of God that is unquestionable but the wording of Muslim Scholars are questionable sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong thank you now the question for by the shabbir Ali show where Jesus says that he is not all-powerful and not God three minutes well there are many passages in the Bible which actually show that Jesus on whom he peace was not the all-powerful god in fact Luke for example tells us that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature the book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus learned obedience so he was growing and learning he was very much a human being The Gospel According to Mark shows us that on one occasion Jesus coming up to a fig tree was hoping that he would find fruit in it because he was hungry but Mark chapter 11 tells us that when Jesus came up he didn't find any fruit on it because it was not the season for figs said May no one ever eat food from you again and the tree withered to its roots now we can see here that Jesus does have some power but he does not have the omniscience and the wisdom that goes with that power if we take this story to be true I think there are some inherent problems with this story but you notice that other writers try to modify this story by removing the offending phrase because it was not the season for figs if it was not for that phrase you can say that Jesus wanted to teach a lesson this is not a good tree so this is what you do with trees which are not good you just destroy them but notice Mark by saying because it was not the season for figs makes it plain that it was a good tree the only reason it had no fruit is because it was not the season for figs but the later gospel writers removed the offending phrase moreover and Mark's gospel shows that on a certain occasion Jesus didn't have the full wisdom and knowledge to know whom he healed a woman touched him from behind and she was healed it shows that Jesus was powerful enough to heal that woman even when he didn't know that he was healing the woman but it also proves that he's not the all-knowing God because if he didn't know who was healed it shows that someone else directed The Power the gospel of Mark says that the he felt the power going out of him but he didn't know who was healed he turned around and kept asking who touched me now one might say well Jesus became a man and therefore he became limited but that is assuming first that he is God and then he became man why don't you assume what is obvious that he's a human being he's a prophet he's the messenger of God and like messengers of God before him he had the power to heal in the name of God or God was working through him as acts of the Apostle says in chapter chapter 2 verse 22 that Jesus was a man approved of God by Miracles and wonders which God did among you by him it was God who did the Miracles Jesus on whom be peace was approached by a man and he was called good teacher and he said why do you call me good no one is good but God alone but again and again Mark's gospel shows that Jesus and whom be peace had limitations he was not the all-powerful God and the later gospel writer has tried to modify these stories in order to make Jesus appear more powerful and you will see that Sam will modify the stories in his rebuttal to make Jesus look more powerful than the stories themselves show but you read the text themselves listen to the wordings of the Bible verses and then see how he interprets them and tell the difference about the fig trees it's not Jesus who made the mistake it's shabir's ignorance of fig trees because before the season of figs something small mobs appear on the tree called tax if they do not appear that's a sign that this tree is Barren that's why Mark emphasized that so you have to study the geography of Palestine no problem with Jesus there secondly about Jesus growing in human I'm sorry wisdom and knowledge that again shows that either you do not understand biblical Doctrine or you are willfully misrepresenting what we believe because as Christians we don't believe Jesus is but God we believe he's God and man and if you can't figure it out that's again not a problem of the scripture that's your finite rationality imposed on the scriptural truths we don't have a problem with that acts 9 why don't you read Acts 3 14-15 and Peter gives us a high christological confession it says You Killed the author of Life showing that Peter not only believed in the deity of Christ but call him the source of life you code Hebrews and you alluded to the fact that Christ learned obedience why didn't you quote Hebrews chapter 1 verse 1 to 12 where the author goes out of his way to prove that Christ is the Creator and he's Yahweh God and read Hebrews in context to get your information what he meant not any meaning this first stage the rest have to go that doesn't work like that and the reason why I'm giving you my papers is I'm hoping you'll give me a freebie up there Sam is for you if you believe that God is fair how would he accept the Injustice in the death of his son for the sins that he had not committed very simply Christ came in perfect Conformity and perfect will to the father he willfully laid his life now shabbir mentioned Mark when Christ told the father if it be possible let this cap pass for me yet not my will be done ear will be done yes he did say that but also read Mark in context again since you want to stick with Mark because in your opinion it has a low christology read Mark 10 45 where he says that he came not to serve I'm sorry not to be served but to serve and to lay his life down as a ransom so God did not unjustly punish Christ the Triune God and their perfect wisdom and knowledge sent the Eternal Word to become flesh who willfully died for the ones he loved at the point in Mark's gospel when you read the reason why Christ is asking that the cup be passed because now in his eternal existence he must experience something he never experienced before namely the wrath of God upon him on our behalf us and that's why he emphasizes not my will father your will be done and the father answered no son this is what we must do for the Saints and Christ willfully died read it in context yes now I think first a word about my method I think uh Sam misunderstands My Method it doesn't mean that if something is found in the gospel of Mark I accept that or should accept that and it doesn't mean that by taking some things and leaving some things we're playing eeny meeny miny mo it is now an accepted method in modern scholarship to try and reconstruct who was the historical Jesus and we notice that in that uh in trying to reconstruct the historical Jesus we have to find out what Jesus was before layers of tradition were put upon him before people claim things that were not true to him now as we study the four gospels we realize that there's a trend of development from Mark to John over time so what we have to deal with now is that Trend and Sam has to show that there is not that Trend I quoted several instances to show how that trend of development is there for Mark to John and Sam has to show that no that trend is not there now even in our present point there is that Trend although in Mark Jesus submits and says yes I'll do what you will father but he says not my will but your be done your will be done but in The Gospel according to John it is his own will that is the difference you see in Mark he's praying father save me from this hour but in Johnny doesn't do that in John he says no one can take my life away from me because I've been given authority to later on my life and to take it up again and this is how he speaks in John it is a different Jesus because in Mark the story looks bad on God if God says well you know criminals you have to die but I want to save you because I love you but somebody has to die who will die guards bring my son and the son comes in and he says father please you know let it not be this way you're the greatest guy dad can't you think of something else and the father says no son you got to die criminals I love you so in The Gospel according to John the material is revised so that Jesus himself comes in and says father I will do it let these people go I love them Father it is a new story and that is the story that Christians would more likely remember it is a development foreign how does one attain eternal life before a perfect God well Jesus in whom be peace apparently in the gospels answered this question a man came up to him and asked what must I do to inherit eternal life and he said if you want to enter eternal life keep the commandments so Muslims would agree with at least that statement keep the Commandments in order to get eternal life and to be saved one has to try One's best to keep the Commandments of God now the Bible says be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect but I don't think we have to be perfect I don't think we can be perfect and I don't think it would be right for God to tell us that we have to be perfect before we are saved because God knows we cannot be perfect but God has made us fallible human beings he has given us a law a direction a goal to reach and has given us the instructions on how to reach that it is up to us to try our level best to do that now some people say well that means that you have no Assurance of Salvation mind you Christians themselves despite some misunderstanding do not have the Assurance of Salvation because in fact The Gospel according to Matthew shows that on the day of judgment some people will come up to Jesus demand that salvation he will say I never knew you there would be people who thought that they had the Assurance of salvation but I think one of the writings of Paul captured it right when he said work out your own salvation with fear and trembling there has to be some trepidation there not a full Assurance otherwise you overstep your limits and you go wrong now what happens after Jesus died for your sins Christians say well we are saved but notice the book of Hebrew says that if you sin after knowledge there is no that tone meant for you but Christians do sin like the rest of us because the first John also says if we say we have no sin then truth is not in us and we are lying so if Christians do sin and this is the result then they have no Assurance of Salvation either so the fact of the matter is that we do have an assurance of salvation but to a limited extent God has shown us look this is the plane just get on the plane do everything you can that plane is going to bring you to me so people have to try and get there when you buy your ticket you have your visa and everything you sit on the plane if somebody asks you are you getting there say insha Allah I am getting there if God Wills I am going there but if I Heir and I will Air from time to time I rely on the grace of God to set me free in fact the story of Adams is told in the in the Glorious Quran sets the record straight the Quran tells him not that you will die if you eat from the fruit because we know he didn't die the Quran tells him if you eat from the tree you will be a wrongdoer and in fact he was a wrongdoer but then God gave him words of repentance to recite them to ask God for forgiveness and God says yes he is he always forgives the person who repents so God forgave Adam and in fact rather than speaking about an original sin among Muslims we talk about the original forgiveness so human beings are not born condemned they are not born in sin but they acquire sins through their own volition and for those acquired sins one can always turn back to God ask his forgiveness and God will forgive him okay first I like the comment on Hebrews 6 again why don't you read the context to see what's in the author of Hebrews was specifying the rejection of Jesus Christ not sinning apart from that one major sin which is unforgivable so I appreciate as you'd like me to quote the Quran in context quote my scripture in context please secondly When you mention about original sin and Islam doesn't teach that and again I don't know who you're trying to convince shabbir because not only does the Quran allude to it but the authentic Islamic Traditions affirm that Adamson damned everyone else and cast them out of paradise let me quote to you sahih Muslim number 64 verse 10 I'm sorry 64 10. Abu hurairah reported Allah's messenger may peace be upon him as saying there was argument between Adam and Moses and Adam came the better of Moses Moses said to said to him you are the same Adam who misled people and caused them to get out of paradise so according to Moses it was Adam slip that cast us out of paradise how does Adam respond Adam said you are the same Moses whom Allah endowed with the knowledge of everything and selected him amongst the people as his messenger he said yes Adam then again said even though you blame me for an affair which had been ordained for me before I was created so you have the concept of original sin the problem is you don't have Divine forgiveness because you don't have a divine Savior to save you from Adam sin Christianity has that okay uh thank you Sam the question is for you life and creation before Jesus on Earth why did Jesus wait so long to come on Earth why did God die Steve I don't know the mind of God why he chooses to do what he wants why did he choose to send Christ at that time God's sovereignty his timing is perfect I only accept what scripture says I assume the questioner is asking what happened to the people before Christ very simply the Lord Jesus himself in John 8 verse 56-58 John chapter 5 verse 45 to 46 and other passages affirm that the prophets died in the expectation of the Messiah to come those who died received the imputed righteousness of Christ because according to Revelation 13 8 Christ was slain from the foundation of the world because in the foreknowledge of God all these things transpired and it was imputed to their account furthermore going back to shabir's original point where he says do the Commandments for eternal life shabir read the rest of the passage please because once the rich man responds Jesus says you still lack one thing to be perfect go sell all you have and give your riches to the poor then follow me that's Perfection following the Messiah and he will glorify you Sam tells me to read this other passage and this other thing again he misunderstand my method which I'm making quite clear I do not have to accept every verse of the Bible yes I can take some verses which seem to be a reconstruction of the original Jesus or a representation of the original Jesus I've already said that it would be unreasonable for God to tell us that we have to be perfect like our heavenly father and since it would be unreasonable for God to say it by implication I think it would be unreasonable for Jesus to say it and I don't think that Jesus ever said that so don't tell me to read that as though I'm hiding it I'm making it plain to you I do not accept everything in the Bible you think some of the things that I asked Sam to read from the Bible tonight I accept no so when when we say to somebody read it in context we mean read it to show us that you accept the whole thing and he's asking me that and I'm I keep saying I am not that now the passage that he read from saying Muslim doesn't show that we have original sin it shows that as a consequence of Adam eating from the fruit humanity is not in Paradise but we are here for a purpose and after that purpose is fulfilled we will those who are successful go back to Paradise we're in a testing ground but we're not born in original sin so it is a fallacy to say that Muslims believe in original sin because of this Hadith which he quoted from Muslim notice now that the question itself cannot be answered and this is a problem it is not that shabbir doesn't understand often Sam says well if you don't understand that shabir that's your problem no it is not that shabir doesn't understand it is that Sam doesn't understand the Muslim world doesn't understand the Christian world doesn't understand how God can be one in three and three and one how Jesus can be God and son at the same time and why God had to come and die for the sins of the world the question is why at this time it is at this time because the people who invented this idea thought they were living in the last age read Paul's writings first Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 Paul thinks that Jesus will come back back anytime scoop up Paul and the rest of the Christian Believers with them it will be the end of the world they thought that Jesus came in the end of the age okay question for brother Chevrolet here sex with a number of women and wine is forbidden as a sin in this world how could how could this be a reward in heaven wine is forbidden in this world because of its possible negative effects God tells us in the Quran that in wine there are some good things for humankind there's some benefit and also much evil and the evil is greater than the benefit therefore think about that and then God prohibits it so Muslims can understand that it's prohibited for good reason the Quran doesn't deny that wine has some good benefits now what will happen in Paradise is that wine will be given from which they will have no headache and there will be no foul smell there will be not in any evil effect in this world Satan uses wine to sow enmity between people and cause violence and wrongdoing but in that world of paradise there'll be no violence no wrongdoing no ill feeling no hatred between any people so that the evil effects of wine will not be there and why not enjoy the good that God has created if it is good why not have it in fact Jesus himself according to the New Testament has said that he won't drink of the fruit of the vine until he drinks it Anew in the Kingdom so Christians should tell us what fruit of divine he will drink some will say it is grape juice but it is with it is plain that it is wine that is being spoken about there in fact the Bible says that wine cheers up Elohim and men and perhaps Sam will tell us what is meant by Elohim that wine cheers up moreover why sex in in heaven with a number of women is it prohibited here on the earth yes if you do it all together at once but if you have many wives nobody has ever said it is prohibited on earth except that the Quran limited the number to four and says four only but the Bible shows that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines one thousand and so long as he went to them one after another the Bible doesn't condemn that activity does it in fact Solomon is shown to be a man who wrote scriptures for us David and many other people had many wives and the Bible says that God found David to be a man after his own heart and who does everything according to what God wishes Acts Chapter 13 Verse 22 and so then if it is possible to have many wives and that will not be a sin it is possible to have that in paradise and that will not be a sin okay in response I have no disagreement with wine but about wine uh cheers up the heart of Elohim he doesn't tell you that this is Joe them and judges and he's speaking of a parable and he's not speaking literally furthermore as he himself correctly stated Elohim doesn't say Yahweh and Elohim can refer to the pagan gods and in the context of jothim's statement the Pagan deities were known for sex capades and getting drunk not Yahweh God that's the context secondly if you can have 70 especially created women in Paradise why not on Earth what's the difference you say you can have four on Earth and in Paradise there's no problem but there is a problem because the Lord Jesus who came down from heaven to tell us the secrets of heaven and who will come again in glory says No Sex in heaven that will not happen because instead of sex we'll enjoy the perfect Holiness and peace and beauty of God we don't need carnal pleasures the Quran states that Judas died on the cross not Jesus It also says in the context that Allah made it seem so is Allah deceptive that's with me yes first of all in all fairness to the Quran as I Ask of shabbir to be fair to my text not believe it but quoted in context nowhere in the Quran does it say Judas So In fairness to the Quran that does not exist and furthermore in response to deception that's kind of funny because earlier shabir quotes Jeremiah saying that Yahweh deceive me that's Jeremiah 20. read the context the Hebrew word is pathat the word means also persuade and the context is speaking of Jeremiah's refusal two preach the word yet God persisted and persuaded and because God is greater than Jeremiah he had no choice but to give in about deception that's a difficulty in Islamic scholarship and I care not to comment because I do believe God is Sovereign and can choose to use methods that to us seem to be unacceptable but it does not attack on his Holiness so I have no problem with that chronic statement and in all fairness the Quran does not say Judas was killed now Sam I think you will agree that there is a great deal of difference between a deceived me and persuaded me and if there is so much difference between these two words why does the Bible say deceive me instead of persuaded me I mean you can argue for a subtlety of meaning but this is going really too far the Bible does say that God deceived me and I was deceived moreover the Bible says that if if a prophet tells a lie it is God who sent a lying tongue into that prophet and moreover the some of the writings to the Thessalonians said that God will send strong delusion so that the people will believe a lie so it is a bit I think escaping the point to try and say that the Bible doesn't teach that God deceives people however and more to the question the Quran doesn't say that God deceived the the people what God what the Quran says is that the people were trying to crucify Jesus but instead of that the god rescued Jesus raised him to himself and made it seem so that they were crucifying Jesus the Quran doesn't go into the detail of how this actually occurred but some of the ancient writings point to judas's Chariot as a man who was crucified instead of Jesus he fell into the same trap that he tried to place his master into notice that the New Testament is not clear on what happened to judas's carrier Matthew's gospel and Acts of the Apostles gives two depictions of what happened to Judas Iscariot one might want to say that it is reconcilable but you have to go to Great Lengths to try and reconcile these two statements Matthew's gospel says that he took the price of the evil that he had done he went and bought the Potter's or he threw it into the temple Treasury and the priest bought the Potter's field and so it was called field of blood because obviously the blood money but the Acts of the Apostles says that he himself bought a field with the money when he went into there he fell headlong and he burst open and that's why it is called field of blood because obviously he's got some blood Spilled Out into the field so you have two different narratives here who bought the field and why is it called field of blood two different answers one can say all right he went up on a cliff fell down and yeah after hanging himself and he spilled his guts but that's besides the point the fact is that you have a contradiction here yes uh uh response to that was that a question to you no that was a question to you okay because of the time limit we will have just two more questions now inshallah question for Brother shabbir Ali is the Quran translated or the Quran translatable it is possible to make a translation of the Quran into another language which would reflect an author's understanding of the quranic text and his attempt to try and convey that understanding to his readers now I've said that in a long way but that's what all translation is about whether you're translating the Quran or the Bible or any other text a Quran by a translation by definition is an interpretation that's what you have in any translation with the Quran the interpretation is a little bit more difficult because you're dealing with a very terse language in the Quran to try to express that in English sometimes we'll have to express a number of subtleties of the Arabic language which is not always possible from one language to another and is sometimes more difficult from the Arabic language to other languages moreover when you're translating the word of God the translation will never be like the original whether you're dealing with the Bible or the Quran or some other book however in the history of Islam it became quite well known that Muslim Scholars resisted translating the Quran and it is often thought that this means that people are not going to get access to the Quran whereas actually the opposite Muslim Scholars fear that if you read translations that will distance you from the actual words of God in the original language and so they recommended for people instead of reading a translation to learn the original text and read and memorize and understand that on the other hand in the biblical world too translations were resisted William Tyndale who made the first English translation of the Bible was actually put to death for his translating work why because the Catholic Church thought that people should not read the Bible if they read the Bible they would lose their faith whereas on the other hand Muslims believe that if people read the Quran they would find their faith and they wanted people to read the original text even today although we're relying heavily on English translations and other language translations we still publish the Quran side by side the original text with its English translations you will notice that hardly Christians walk around with Greek texts side by side with the English a few Scholars may have it but very people very few people know how to read it and very few people would understand that but most Muslims try to read at least the Arabic text even if they do not understand the words and much more when studies of the Quran is being done it is always done based on the Arabic language notice my words you see if you listen carefully to what I say you wouldn't hold up a Greek text for me I know you have Greek texts I have three Greek texts in my own personal collection and I know you can publish them side by side as well I also have one with the same sort of arrangement but mostly Christians don't walk around with that how many Christians have in their position in their possession a Greek text of the Bible no at all how many Christians all right at all yeah how many Muslims have in The Possession a an Arabic text of the Holy Quran yeah you see it's uh no but it proves no questions please what it proves is that Muslims and this is indisputable I don't think it's a debatable point it is indisputable that Muslims have paid more attention to the original Arabic text of this scripture than Christians in general have paid to the original language text of their scripture thank you thank you okay Sam this is the last question for you let me say brother I'm sorry if Jesus died so that Christians will be free of sins so what is the reward for those who do good things versus those who do bad things since all Christians will go to paradise the answer to that question is not all Christians who profess to be Christians are truly of God should be alluded to that he also alluded to Philippians chapter 2 verse 12 where it says work out your salvation but if he quotes verse 13 it says for it is God that works in you and through you for his purpose meaning that if God has truly begun a work in you he will complete and perfect it which is also in Philippians 1 6. since we still have a corrupt flesh nature that we struggle with those things that we do in the flesh we will be rebuked for those things that God in his sovereignty Works through us he rewards us not because he is obligated to do so because he loves to do so because we are his family and I can call God my father shabbir cannot because of Jesus Christ that's the difference there shall respond um well first of all this father of business and it's not that shabir cannot but shabir will not anyone can commit blasphemy but to say that God is your father what are you saying is that you have such a special relationship with God on whose authority you see on the Bible what we've been showing tonight that the Bible is uh not entirely the word of God in fact the very idea of calling god father is something that is part of the developing Trend if you see how many times Jesus refers to God as father in Mark's gospel and how many times he refers to God in as father in John's gospel you'll see a remarkable difference and Mark is something like four three times rather and in John it's something like 118 times it is quite a remarkable difference and it shows that over time the story about Jesus was being reshaped and refashioned for example and on one occasion when the mother and brother and sister of Jesus came to look for Jesus Jesus said whoever does the will of God is my mother and brother as the will of my Father in Heaven you see God has been changed the Father in Heaven it is part of the development and what Sam has not shown is that this development is not there he has not proved that so I think that's that holds that there has been that development calling god father is a deviation from the original message shall happen but no something was misinterpreted misunderstood God Abba Father maybe it comes from Paul but not from Jesus remember all the gospels were written after the writings of Paul and so they betray some influence from the teachings that Paul had already left behind all the New Testament Scholars worthy of note today will tell you that Paul's writings are the earliest writings of the New Testament thank you very much again we really thank our missing the speakers here brother and brother exception for giving us very good performance thank you yeah Dr shabir uh this is uh I appreciate the answer to the question now there has been a challenge from uh Kim Shimon on the topic of whether the Quran does teach that God is one in taheed and I'm sure the brothers here would love to host that discussion if the question uh if if you want to have that discussion with them um I I don't want to say anything negative uh about somebody who is not here but it is already evident from what I've said before on on many forums uh and perhaps also in writing I'm not sure if I've said it in writing um that uh I I will not be having a debate with Sam Shimon that's how it appears to me uh right now um you know we were just uh quoting a lot of Justin Martyr and um if you allow me I I will uh if I can find a quote very quickly maybe I won't and I'll just skip it but Justin Martyr says let's not be argumentative and uh certainly in our dialogue today um I I hope we were not argumentative um but there are some um there are some apologists out there who think that it is more Christian to be argumentative and uh and Sam Shimon in fact uh quotes uh references to the Bible people and he says show me one place where either Jesus or the apostles or the prophets or God himself or was speaking generously or or courteously to to non-believers um so he has a different idea of how dialogue should go and uh I'm I'm not uh uh I I I can't relate to that so um I don't think in the near future I'll be debating uh Samoan whether in this proposed topic or some other one thank you thank you anybody [Music] foreign [Music]