0:00 So, we're just going to get after, you 0:01 know, all of the top questions that I 0:03 personally have and then others that 0:05 I've sort of asked too. Like, what do 0:06 you want to know? Like, if I can, if you 0:08 can go pick a, you know, a meta ad brain 0:10 like Nathan has, what what do you want 0:12 to know currently? 0:13 >> And at the end of the day, like the core 0:17 similarity between all winning ad 0:20 accounts is 0:23 really good, high performing ads that 0:25 can hold a lot of spend. Like, that's 0:27 it. And then the question is, how do you 0:29 get there? 0:30 >> All right, man. We're we're on. Nathan 0:32 just got back. He's, you know, he said 0:34 he's two days from being healthy. He got 0:36 back from, you know, his European 0:39 uh trip. And then I'm I'm on no sleep 0:42 myself. I was um on a golf trip in 0:46 Colorado. So, I just flew back in last 0:48 night. It was I It was quick. I flew in 0:50 Saturday, got back last night. I'm new 0:52 to golf. I've only been playing a few 0:54 years. And uh I ended up doing 36 holes 0:57 a day for 3 days straight just like 1:00 traveling around the state of Colorado 1:01 playing. And my scores were horrendous 1:04 cuz none of those courses are easy. So 1:06 I'm like slicing golf balls off of 1:08 mountains. Uh but it was fun. But 1:10 anyways, I'm I'm a little uh tired 1:13 myself. So hopefully I keep my energy up 1:16 on this. But Nathan's been on the uh 1:18 channel before. We've done a few videos. 1:20 I've been on his um and I know you've 1:24 got Nathan like a ton of meta ad spin 1:28 more than I do probably at Grow My Ads. 1:31 We are, you know, we're growing our meta 1:32 ad services, but I know you've got a lot 1:34 more and you've been pumping out some 1:36 incredible content in regards to like 1:38 structure and strategy uh with meta ads. 1:42 I I think it's some of the best I've 1:43 seen for sure out there. Um, I do like 1:46 Alex Becker and he gave you a shout out 1:49 on his video. He did one recently I 1:52 thought was great because I always like 1:53 how he just like, you know, no [ __ ] 1:55 simplifies it as simple as possible. Um, 2:00 and so I thought his video was was was 2:02 pretty good, too. But with that, there's 2:04 so much, you know, right now in meta 2:07 ads, especially with, you know, the 2:09 updates after the uh Adromeda update 2:11 that they did. And we've got some people 2:14 saying you need 10,000 different pieces 2:16 of created a week. Some people are 2:19 saying, you know, you got to run this 2:21 specific account structure. Some are 2:22 saying, no, throw everything in one 2:24 campaign and one ad set. Put 50 ads in 2:27 there. It doesn't matter. And just let 2:29 it all rip inside of there. So, there's 2:31 a lot, right, that people are talking 2:33 about. Everyone has their own different 2:34 frameworks and things. I like how you 2:37 kind of broke things down in a simple 2:39 way. And so this this like podcast sort 2:44 of style you and I are doing, I'm 2:46 literally just going to be like going 2:49 question by question with you. This is 2:50 going to be like FAQ style, just really 2:53 get into it. I'll try to keep quiet as 2:54 much as I can. It's hard for me to do 2:56 sometimes, but um I think we're going to 2:58 get some like real raw meta ad actual 3:03 practical advice today and not a you 3:06 know 1 hour [ __ ] like framework 3:08 video. So, we're just going to get 3:09 after, you know, all of the top 3:11 questions that I personally have and 3:13 then others that I've sort of asked too. 3:15 Like, what do you want to know? Like, if 3:16 I can, if you can go pick a, you know, a 3:18 meta ad brain like Nathan has, what what 3:21 do you want to know currently? So, I 3:23 know I didn't let you introduce yourself 3:25 again. You've been on you've been on 3:26 this channel many times. I don't even 3:27 think you need to, but give us quick 3:30 intro uh of who you are and uh Blue 3:32 Sense Digital. 3:34 >> Sure. Thanks for having me. Um Nathan 3:36 obviously we run Blueense Digital 3:38 YouTube channel which is a byproduct of 3:40 the agency. We work with 8 and N figure 3:43 e-commer retail businesses. We have 65 3:46 clients under management. Um 50% of our 3:49 ad spend is US, 50% is Australia. 70% of 3:53 total ad spend is Meta. So it's a big 3:55 portion. We obviously run Google as 3:56 well. We run Tik Tok too. Um but on meta 4:00 we I think at the moment have 300 4:03 million a year in ad spend under 4:04 management. So it's a lot. Um and with 4:08 that we have a lot of data and context 4:12 as to what's working now and what wasn't 4:13 working last year. 4:15 >> And yeah so that's actually you know one 4:17 of the questions main openering 4:19 questions I had. So you nailed that. Um 4:22 what like this year compared to last 4:24 year what are you seeing? 4:27 Um I think that so like there's this big 4:32 there's this big craze of creative right 4:35 that probably came up maybe a year and a 4:37 half ago which is that creative matters 4:38 more than anything else like media 4:40 buying is democratizing and its value 4:42 and so with that there was there's two 4:45 aspect I think there's like three angles 4:47 to creative there's quality how good is 4:50 the ad um number two is diversity are we 4:55 making very different ads that are 4:56 talking to different people or are they 4:58 all very similar? And then number three 5:00 is volume. How much volume of creative, 5:03 how much volume of content are we 5:05 putting in the account? And I think 5:07 people were a bit confused like a year 5:09 and a half ago because it was like, how 5:11 do we prioritize these three pillars? 5:13 Can we just crank volume? And a lot of 5:15 people had success there and they were 5:16 like, oh, we can just like make 5:18 thousands of ads and we're growing. So 5:21 positive feedback loop, that's that must 5:23 be how we grow. Um, 5:27 same thing with diversity. I think a lot 5:29 of people were seeing success with 5:30 really like diversifying their creative 5:32 set with pushing different persona call 5:35 outs so they're talking to different 5:36 people. Um, and then I think quality was 5:39 like neglected a little bit where people 5:42 were like ad quality doesn't matter 5:43 because you'll hit a winner if you just 5:45 have enough velocity of creative. And I 5:48 think there's this little bit of a 5:49 correction this year where a lot of 5:51 people went through the volume and 5:53 realized that like garbage in garbage 5:56 out. If you just go and put tons of 5:58 mediocre ads into an account, it will 6:00 still drive a mediocre result. And at 6:03 the end of the day, like the core 6:06 similarity between all winning ad 6:09 accounts is 6:12 really good, high performing ads that 6:14 can hold a lot of spend. Like that's it. 6:17 And then the question is, how do you get 6:18 there? And are we getting there through 6:21 really good creative strategists who can 6:24 put a good creative together or are we 6:26 getting there through like just sheer 6:28 volume and then hoping we get a hit? And 6:31 I think a lot of people are like 6:34 flip-flopping on ideologies and like you 6:36 watch a lot of different YouTube videos 6:37 and you go, "Oh, that must be the way to 6:38 do it or that must be the way to do it." 6:39 Because you try one of them but you 6:40 don't do it very well and so you pivot 6:42 into the other and then you like can't 6:43 find success cuz nothing's working for 6:45 you. I'm very much so as an agency, 6:48 we're more leading towards like let's 6:51 not try to add 10% more volume, but 6:53 let's look at the existing content base 6:55 and see how we can improve it. If you 6:57 already have the content team and 7:00 agencies and capacity to make 200 ads a 7:04 month, sure we can go and push it to 7:06 250, but can we look at the current 200 7:08 ads and go, is this really working? like 7:11 is 50 bottom of funnel static flat lays 7:14 with just sale offers on it. Could we 7:16 cut that to 20 and then take that effort 7:19 and put it into something else? Like how 7:21 can we optimize the existing content 7:22 base rather than trying to just purely 7:26 pump up volume which is I think what 7:28 Alex Becker was kind of getting to which 7:30 is just trying to crank to 10,000 ads. A 7:34 lot of people have tried it. We've tried 7:35 it on a lot of accounts and then it 7:37 doesn't work and you're like where two 7:39 from here like we just completely 7:41 committed to this ideology and it didn't 7:43 play out. 7:45 >> Yeah. It's interesting how that spread, 7:48 you know, like wildfire. Everyone's 7:50 saying you've got to have this insane 7:52 creative output now. And you know, I'm 7:56 sure some people have had success with 7:57 that. They probably had some hits with 7:59 just going back and doing more, right? I 8:03 can't tell you how many meta ad accounts 8:05 I've seen where it's like they just run 8:07 the same thing forever [laughter] and 8:09 you're like, "So, what are you guys 8:10 actually doing then? Is it just like 8:12 budget control or like what's actually 8:14 going on?" So, I think at least it got 8:16 people 8:18 to kind of just go back to the drawing 8:21 board and figure out what you know, 8:23 let's go test. Let's go test. So, a lot 8:25 of testing has taken place, you know, 8:27 compared to though like what you're 8:28 seeing that's working now though 8:30 compared to a year ago. Is it Is it 8:33 really that different? 8:37 >> No. No. 8:38 >> Okay. Yeah. 8:40 >> Yeah. I'd say it's pretty similar. Like 8:42 there's nothing. 8:43 >> What's changed? What's changed in your 8:45 process though from, you know, a year 8:47 ago? And that's when I say this, I'm 8:50 saying like pre- Andromeda, the big, you 8:52 know, the big change that everyone 8:54 freaked out about. You know, if you go 8:56 back to like Yeah. All right. what we 8:57 were doing and work what what worked 9:00 like last year compared to now you know 9:03 the basics are still very similar are 9:05 you still running like if I gave you a 9:08 $50,000 per month account now and you're 9:11 you're like all ecom right you don't do 9:13 like legen or local service based 9:15 business stuff right all ecom 9:16 >> so and all right so we'll stick to 9:18 e-commerce structure I'll probably throw 9:20 some legion stuff in there because I 9:22 think that'll be interesting get your 9:23 take there too but if I give you a 9:25 $50,000 e-commerce 9:27 meta ad account right now. Would it look 9:30 different today than it would be a year 9:33 ago from the time you would like take it 9:36 on? 9:37 >> Yeah, it might look a little bit 9:39 different in that we're using less 9:41 scaling campaigns. Um, so old a very 9:45 typical structure is that you have a 9:47 testing campaign, you're testing new 9:49 content at an adset level. How you're 9:51 segmenting, everyone does it a little 9:53 bit different. whether you're segmenting 9:54 by personas, concepts, creative types, 9:57 formats, etc. But you're going to have 9:59 some degree of segmentation there. And 10:01 then as stuff works, you're going to 10:03 effectively ascend it into a scaling 10:05 campaign, which is like a large budget 10:07 CBO advantage plus campaign that's just 10:09 going to rip with your highest 10:11 performing ads. Um, 10:14 that's like it's very account specific 10:17 whether that works or not. We do it in 10:19 some accounts, it works really well. We 10:20 do it in other accounts, it doesn't work 10:22 at all. And so we don't have scaling 10:23 campaigns and we just scale in the 10:25 pre-existing testing campaign. Um we are 10:29 these days it's more not working than it 10:31 was last year. And so last year if you 10:34 looked at our accounts we'd have way 10:35 more scaling campaigns. This year we 10:36 have way less. Um that's like one 10:39 structural change. I'd say the second 10:41 one is more of a shift towards CBOS with 10:43 minimum budget caps. Um we used to be 10:47 pretty [ __ ] heavy. I think that like at 10:50 the end of the day, this big CBO [ __ ] 10:52 debate, I make a lot of Instagram reels 10:54 on it and I do it because they rip. 10:56 Every time I make one, it rips like 10:58 50,000 views. Um, but the more nuanced 11:02 take, which we can do in the in a 11:04 YouTube video format, is that I think 11:08 it's not an enormous needle mover, 11:10 whether you're going for a CBO or an 11:11 [ __ ] I think it's more of a media buying 11:13 preference. And um 11:18 it's something worth testing like 11:22 >> sorry uh just to just to cuz there 11:26 there's there are a lot of beginners too 11:27 that watch my videos. I would assume 11:30 most people know the difference but just 11:31 real quick CBO versus [ __ ] 11:34 >> CBO is where the budget is at the 11:36 campaign level and then [ __ ] is where the 11:38 budgets at the adset level. 11:39 >> Okay. And it's a big thing right now in 11:41 regards to some people are claiming you 11:43 must run one or the other. 11:45 >> Yeah. Like there's always a debate where 11:47 and people are very uh it's it's more of 11:50 an ideological debate than like a actual 11:54 data driven debate. People are like you 11:56 need to do this because this is the 11:58 theory or you need to do this because 12:00 this is a theory. But at the end of the 12:01 day, I don't think it's actually like 12:03 it's not worth getting your if you're 12:04 sub 50K a month ad spend. 12:06 >> Don't worry. 12:07 >> Doesn't matter. Yeah. 12:08 >> Just chill. 12:09 um if you're spending 500k a month worth 12:12 a test might squeeze you an extra four 12:14 or 5% efficiency if one operates a 12:17 little bit better in your ad account 12:18 than the other. So they're probably like 12:20 the two structural account changes from 12:23 last year. Other than that I think I 12:26 think all the same fundamentals are in 12:28 place which is have some kind of testing 12:30 structure like you want to be able to 12:31 introduce content and understand if it 12:33 works. You don't want to necessarily 12:36 force tests like if meta is clearly 12:39 demonstrating that something's not 12:40 working. You don't want to go and just 12:41 crank more spend through it. Um you do 12:43 want to have a degree of okay, we trust 12:45 that the system is showing us that this 12:47 is not performing well at all. Let's 12:49 pull out. Um and then you want to have 12:51 some kind of scaling strategy like if it 12:53 works, what are we going to do next? 12:55 What does the like branches of the tree 12:58 look like? Yes, no, yes, no. as we go 13:00 through and then what does that look 13:02 like as the account evolves and then 13:05 really just like I was saying this to a 13:08 very large founder I think yesterday 13:11 it's like a multi-9 figure uh TDC brand 13:14 in the US and he was asking about their 13:17 account structure and I said to him and 13:20 he mirrored it back so we were like 13:21 completely on the same page and I was 13:22 like look you can have any account 13:25 structure you want like throw anything 13:26 in the account but it has to be 13:29 incredibly thoughtful and there has to 13:30 be a very specific reason as to why you 13:32 were doing that. And if you look at an 13:35 account and you're like, I don't know 13:36 why we're doing this, you have an issue. 13:39 >> So that's like if you can defend your ad 13:41 account, 13:43 >> then I think you're in you're in a 13:44 better position than 99% of ad accounts 13:47 and you can probably continue running 13:49 with it until someone else challenges it 13:51 and has a better point and you're like, 13:53 I didn't think about that. Okay, let me 13:55 restructure recording. 13:56 >> Your your scaling campaigns though if 13:59 you are running that structure th those 14:01 are set up as a CBO 14:04 >> generally. Yeah. 14:06 >> Yeah. And 14:08 you don't pause. So if you find a 14:11 winner, you don't pause the winner in 14:14 the testing campaign. Correct. 14:16 >> Yeah. Never. 14:17 >> And you just then copy move it over to 14:21 the scale campaign. 14:22 >> Yep. Correct. 14:24 the and then your adset structure and 14:29 we're going to stick to structure and 14:30 we'll get into like I want I want to 14:31 I'll have this you know somewhat 14:34 structured 14:35 uh in regards to we'll go structure 14:37 creative and then maybe like some 14:38 general Q&A stuff I I have set for you 14:41 too but your adset structure does it 14:44 matter like you said you know some 14:46 people will break out adsets differently 14:48 like does that have you found that that 14:50 matters how you segment your adsets 14:53 In terms of performance, I don't think 14:56 it makes an enormous difference. There's 14:58 probably an argument that it will make a 14:59 little bit of a difference. 15:01 >> Um, in terms of quality of reading data 15:05 and making decisions, I think it does 15:07 matter a lot. 15:08 >> And so, why would it matter on 15:11 performance? Well, there's and this is 15:14 where you start getting into the theory 15:17 and then okay, can we prove this with 15:19 actual data and accounts? And when you 15:21 go to prove stuff, particularly in meta, 15:23 even with the amount of ad spend that we 15:25 have, it becomes tough because the 15:28 differences in performance here are 15:30 pretty small. Like they end up being 15:32 like 5 to 10%. We're not talking about 15:33 2x swings in performance. Like if an 15:35 ad's bad, an ad's bad and it's not going 15:37 to work no matter where you put. Um and 15:40 so we have data to support that the way 15:43 that we structure is the right way and 15:44 we have tried other stuff but you might 15:47 go in your right account try it doesn't 15:48 work and then you're like okay I need to 15:50 do something else. Um 15:51 >> the way that we structure is based on 15:53 concepts which is every time we are uh 15:56 briefing or thinking about new content 15:59 that the uh content team needs to make. 16:02 It is who's the persona, what's the 16:04 angle and then what's the offer. So the 16:07 offer is effectively the product. The 16:09 angle is like what is the core marketing 16:10 angle that's trying to get them to 16:12 convert. And then the persona is who are 16:13 we actually speaking to? And each adset 16:16 will be a different concept. And then 16:18 under there will contain three to 40 16:23 creative depending on budgets and volume 16:26 of the brand. 16:27 >> Three to 40 in one ad set. 16:30 >> Yeah. Like it's going to be variable 16:32 based on how much. So, if like we have 16:34 clients that make 600 ads a month, in 16:36 which case we're not creating 500 ad 16:40 sets. We're going to we're going to 16:41 bundle up. 16:42 >> Um 16:44 >> I'll get to cuz I I do have a question 16:46 because I think you did a really good 16:47 job of breaking down how much creative 16:50 you need based off of your volume and 16:53 spend. I'm going to save that though 16:55 once we get to the the the creative uh 16:58 questions there. But I I I I like how 17:00 you simplified that with math. Um I 17:03 think a lot of people just were like, 17:04 "Yeah, throw a bunch of creative and an 17:06 adset and just it doesn't matter." But 17:09 your ad your adsets will include, you 17:12 know, top of funnel, middle of funnel, 17:14 bottom of funnel, creative all mixed 17:16 together, right? So you'll have a 17:18 concept uh you know, an avatar persona 17:20 that you're trying to target and then 17:22 you'll mix all top of funnel, bottom 17:25 funnel, middle of funnel ads in it. 17:27 Correct. 17:28 Yeah. Yeah. And the So there's two 17:31 reasons why we do that. Um reason number 17:34 one is that based on meta ad 17:38 documentation and theory, targeting 17:41 still primarily occurs at the adset 17:42 level. And so different adsets can 17:46 target wildly different people even if 17:48 they're all on broad because they will 17:50 use the signals from the ads under them. 17:52 And based on the signals of who the ads 17:54 are resonating with, they'll go and 17:56 target similar people. And so you could 17:58 have two broad ads set, one with 18:00 creatives talking to like uh 70-year-old 18:04 women, another one talking to men who 18:06 are 20, and they will go and actually 18:08 learn the audience in isolation. And 18:10 then when you do an audience segment 18:11 breakdown, you'll actually see, oh, this 18:12 adset, even though the targeting is 18:14 completely broad, is targeting old 18:16 women, and this one's targeting young 18:17 men. Um, 18:19 >> and so with that, you generally want to 18:22 group all of the top, middle, bottom of 18:24 funnel content together so it all serves 18:27 and sequences across to the same users 18:29 and to the same audience. 18:31 >> So, you would differ from Alex Becker in 18:34 his video. And I [clears throat] I know 18:37 I keep giving him a shout out here for 18:38 some reason. Uh, I just you there's so 18:41 there's so much out there on YouTube. I 18:43 I mean I probably Google ads, too. I 18:46 don't know. I I I don't watch a lot of 18:47 Google Ads channels since I literally do 18:49 my own. But uh you know, so I'm sure 18:52 there's a ton of, you know, people 18:54 saying different things uh that I even 18:56 say and there's probably confusion in 18:58 that world, but meta meta for sure 19:01 because I'm not I'm not a meta ad guy, 19:04 right? Like I spend very little time 19:06 inside of meta ads. Um, and you know, 19:10 I've got a team that does does that, but 19:13 I I I need to know enough, right, to to 19:15 talk the talk, but like I'm not in there 19:17 clicking a lot of buttons inside of a 19:18 meta ad account. I probably should, but 19:21 just to keep my chops uh going with it, 19:24 but I just I don't have the time. So, 19:27 uh, I know what to tell my team to do in 19:30 regards to my own meta ads that that we 19:32 run here at Grow My Ads for our own 19:34 selves. Uh but in regards to day-to-day 19:37 with clients, I'm not I'm not in there. 19:38 So I would look like probably an idiot 19:40 if you I've had a screen share uh you 19:42 know a meta ad account right now. But 19:45 what I liked about and I w I've been 19:47 watching a lot of meta ad stuff just out 19:49 of curiosity like what are what are the 19:52 you know what are people saying out 19:53 there because I don't do any meta ad 19:54 content. So this this video is unique in 19:57 regards to the grow my ads channel. We 19:58 do run meta ads for our clients uh but 20:01 we're very selective with it. So, we 20:03 don't like we don't advertise too much 20:05 of our meta meta ad services right now. 20:07 Um, maybe in the future we will, but I 20:09 liked Alex's video in regards to Alex 20:12 Becker in regards to like how he just 20:15 simplified it. And you know, it come 20:17 like ultimately it just comes down to 20:19 like Yeah, it's like advertising, 20:22 right? Like you you've got to have 20:24 you've got to have a good offer number 20:26 one. So, if your offer is not good, who 20:27 cares what structure is or what your 20:29 creative is, it won't sell, right? you 20:32 have a bad offer. Uh but he simplified 20:34 it. Now the thing though that you sound 20:37 like you would differ on is he because 20:39 he was talking about it from like Hyros 20:41 perspective on his own structure. He 20:44 actually like his e-commerce specific 20:47 ads had an ecom campaign. His Legion 20:52 uh ads were inside of a legion campaign. 20:54 So he was like he it looked like he was 20:56 segmenting his sort of avatar by the 21:00 campaign level and I'm sure his then his 21:03 different hooks for those avatars uh cuz 21:05 there's obviously sub avatars within the 21:07 avatar, right? So he was doing that it 21:09 looked like from the ad set level. I 21:12 hope that's I haven't I didn't watch 21:14 it's been a few weeks and I just got 21:16 done golfing, you know, an insane amount 21:18 the last five days, so I'm I'm out of my 21:20 mind maybe a little bit, but you're 21:22 saying now adset level is all you need. 21:26 So you you'll mix in in one campaign, 21:29 you'll mix in targeting a seven-year-old 21:31 woman and also targeting a 20-year-old 21:33 male. It doesn't matter because it's the 21:35 adset that matters. 21:37 >> Yeah. So like both are true. Um, and it 21:42 kind of depends on the volume of spend 21:44 going to the account as to how much you 21:46 want to start segmenting. The way that 21:48 all the platforms work is that cuz this 21:52 I say this a lot in content because I 21:54 don't think anyone ever asks this 21:56 question which is why does every single 21:58 digital advertising platform have 22:01 campaigns, adsets, ads? All of them have 22:03 it. It's the structure that all of them 22:05 follow and it's because it's a very easy 22:08 way to silo data that fits pretty much 22:11 every business which is that you don't 22:13 want to just have one campaign and 22:16 everything flows under it because you 22:18 give the advertiser no ability to tell 22:20 the platform hey actually no we sell to 22:22 ecom people and we sell to lead gen 22:24 people and those two people are very 22:25 different so please don't mix the 22:28 targeting together um and so that's 22:30 effectively what the adset and the 22:32 campaign level do the ads set there is 22:34 flow on of um conversions. So like two 22:38 adsets in one campaign the two adsets 22:41 will share learnings but not a lot. It's 22:45 like I don't know what the number is 22:46 meta doesn't tell you but it's like 22:47 maybe 20% of data will flow between them 22:50 and so they will share learnings to try 22:52 to help each other. Then at the campaign 22:54 level there is account level learnings 22:56 shared but it's even smaller. It's maybe 22:58 like 5%. And so campaigns will share 23:02 conversions to try to help each other, 23:04 particularly with Advantage Plus because 23:05 that's the whole thing about how 23:06 Advantage Plus targeting works is it 23:07 uses historical account data to infer 23:10 future targeting, but it's very small. 23:13 And so like in Alex Becker's case, if he 23:16 was spending 10 grand a month, he'd 23:18 probably just segment at the adset 23:19 level. Then as he's now probably 23:21 spending a million dollars a month, it's 23:23 like, "All right, push it up to the 23:25 campaign level, have the segmentation 23:26 there, and then at the adset level, we 23:28 can test a bunch of stuff under the 23:31 broader persona." Um, and this is 23:34 particularly what we do in CPG, so 23:36 consumable package goods, anyone selling 23:38 supplements, is that when they're 23:41 relatively small, let's call it 50, 100k 23:43 a month ad spend, we'll be testing 23:45 concepts at the adset level. Okay, do uh 23:47 for creatine, let's do menopausal women. 23:51 Let's then do uh 18 to 21 year old guys 23:54 who are at the gym. Let's try all these 23:56 different personas. Okay, cool. 23:57 Menopausal women crushes like it's doing 24:00 so well and we're scaling it up and then 24:03 uh men age 40 is crushing as well and 24:07 this particular angle. So, we'll then 24:08 take that out and just have a dedicated 24:11 campaign for it because we want 24:13 dedicated budget. We want as many adets 24:16 as possible as we're continuing to spin 24:17 up more content for that. Um, so we 24:20 don't just muddy the existing campaign. 24:22 And that's ultimately how you like 24:24 continue to build structure in as 24:26 budgets go up and as creative volume 24:28 goes up and as you have these different 24:30 funnels and you go into different 24:31 landing pages, etc. 24:33 >> So you would find okay, menopausal women 24:36 and uh what was the other like creatine? 24:41 Uh let's go like 20-year-old guys at the 24:44 gym. 24:44 >> 20-y old I think that's what Yeah. So 24:47 you would say all right these are 24:48 crushing inside of our testing campaign 24:50 which is you know again someone 50k to 24:53 100k a month and spend you actually then 24:55 would take those out and then segment 24:58 menopausal women into one campaign 25:00 20-year-old you know fitness buff guys 25:03 in another campaign. And those are those 25:06 your scaling campaigns for that now too 25:08 technically or and are you leaving those 25:10 in the testing campaign or are you 25:12 literally like full segmentation? 25:14 >> Um we'll we'll leave it in but the end 25:17 goal is to have all testing and scaling 25:20 occurring in those new dedicated 25:22 campaigns. 25:23 >> I see. 25:24 >> So I'll give you an example. Uh 25:28 I just don't want to give away specific 25:30 client examples. So, I'll make something 25:31 up which is uh like let's actually let's 25:34 just use that creatine example. 25:36 Ultimately, the goal would be down the 25:38 line to be spending $2 million a month 25:40 on the ad account and have five 25:43 campaigns. Each campaign is a particular 25:45 persona that we're managing to cut 25:47 through on. So, one might be really old 25:50 people where we're using native statics 25:52 and like really like old people type ads 25:56 that are going to work with them like AI 25:58 uh animations as well. Then we have the 26:00 menopause women. Then we have the young 26:03 uh gym bros. And then the other two, we 26:05 don't know what they are yet because we 26:06 haven't found them. We don't have 26:07 another persona that works. And so down 26:09 the line we try to unlock those. And 26:11 then we effectively what we have is five 26:13 funnels that are all firing 26:15 [clears throat] 26:17 and but all like when you start spending 26:20 more like you're saying now millions it 26:22 it now matters because that incremental 26:26 gain that you get from that actually 26:28 matters at 2 million a month. But when 26:29 you're at 100K a month, you like it 26:31 doesn't you're you're talking like small 26:33 percent of any amount of gain you would 26:35 actually get from that type of 26:36 segmentation. 26:37 >> Yeah. And I think like and it's always 26:40 worth delineating because this even 26:41 happens at like the larger end where 26:43 this founder I was talking to the other 26:45 day is spending like uh multiple seven 26:47 figures a month on meta and um whether 26:50 it's him or whether you're spending 50k 26:52 a month there's the performance gain of 26:55 account structure. So yes, you can run 26:57 this structure. You'll get 5% better 26:59 efficiency. Sure. The other side of the 27:02 coin is 27:05 getting actionable tangible learnings 27:07 and being able to read the ad account. 27:09 And in the example of that uh big nine 27:12 figure founder, 27:14 he was like, I don't even like when 27:15 we're just we look in the ad account. 27:18 Ah, what do we make of it? Like we don't 27:20 the agency doesn't know what to do next. 27:22 We don't really know what to do next. 27:23 Like it's just a it's a mess. like what 27:26 are we doing? What's the strategy? How 27:27 do we go? Okay, that is clearly working. 27:30 Pick that out. Do this. Like what is the 27:32 next steps? And I think a lot of people 27:34 will end up with this really like 27:35 complicated account structure. And then 27:38 they end up in this position whether 27:39 they're spending 50k a month or 500k a 27:41 month and they're like, ah, what do I do 27:44 next? I don't even. So they'll just go 27:45 down to the ad level, sort by spend, and 27:47 go, okay, these three ads are doing 27:48 well. Let's do more of that. And like 27:50 that's the limitation of the strategy. 27:53 So I just also think about like not just 27:55 the efficiency gain which is small but 27:57 also like how are we reading data and 27:59 how are we then making decisions off the 28:00 back of it. 28:02 >> Yeah interesting. Um the 28:07 like is there a bad structure then? 28:11 >> Uh oversegmentation is 28:14 >> over segmentation. Yeah. 28:16 >> Yeah. Because if every time you fragment 28:18 at the adset or the campaign level, 28:20 you're fragmenting uh the learnings and 28:22 conversion data. And so um you generally 28:26 like for anyone spending under 100k a 28:29 month, you probably don't need more than 28:32 like two campaigns, three campaigns, 28:35 maybe four. Like it it always depends on 28:38 the complexity of the business because 28:39 you might have a small business is 28:40 actually quite complex. like they have a 28:42 wholesale arm, they then have a DTOC 28:44 arm, they then have a couple retail 28:46 stores they want to spin up it. So like 28:48 anytime you get more complexity, the 28:50 account structure has to map to it. But 28:53 for a very simple direct to consumer 28:55 brand, sell a couple products, have a 28:57 couple personas, like you should always 28:59 be trying to keep it as simple as 29:00 possible because it's going to allow you 29:02 to read the data very easily and you 29:05 will generally always get better 29:06 performance through consolidating just 29:08 like with Google Ads. Like in Google 29:10 ads, one of the pillars is like don't 29:12 have 600 campaigns. 29:14 >> Consolidate down 29:16 >> like almost the goal is always one 29:18 campaign 29:19 >> and then you have to have a very 29:20 specific business purpose for each level 29:22 of segmentation. 29:23 >> Right. 29:25 Exactly. The Well, aside from a testing 29:29 and a scaling, what other c why why 29:32 would you have other campaigns? Is it 29:34 margin margin differences of uh products 29:36 or services? You'd have 29:38 >> geographic. Yeah, 29:40 >> you'd have one for existing customers 29:42 always. So, your cold targeting is 29:44 always excluding existing customers and 29:46 then you'd have that in a separate 29:47 campaign. Um, if you're a small 29:50 business, like you you might not even 29:51 need that. Like, do we need to target 29:53 existing customers? 29:54 >> Do you find Meta actually uh abides by 29:57 that? Like I think Google does a 29:58 terrible job like they they do have, you 30:00 know, the new verse uh um returned data. 30:06 Obviously, you have to manipulate the 30:07 tag a bit to actually get that to to 30:09 properly track, but um you know, it's 30:12 hilarious because there's so many audits 30:14 I'll do and like people like set up PMAX 30:16 and I know we won't turn this into a 30:18 Google Ads video, I promise folks, but 30:20 they'll set up a PMAX campaign that they 30:22 like call like, you know, remarketing to 30:26 customers, repeat customers or whatever. 30:28 And it's like you'll look at it and 30:30 you're like, uh not really. And then 30:33 like they'll like have a cold 30:34 prospecting re like Pmax campaign. I'm 30:36 like that's still like more than 50%. 30:39 And this is Google Ads attribution by 30:40 the way too. So like you know if we 30:42 actually really you know peeled this 30:45 onion open and went layer by layer with 30:48 like third party attribution and other 30:50 tools. I'm sure we could find that this 30:53 Pmax campaign is sucking up a ton of 30:55 repeat customers if you're in that type 30:57 of business. And we have, you know, we 30:59 have found that. I've done YouTube 31:00 videos like literally proving that. Uh, 31:03 but do you find so I think Google does a 31:05 bad job. I think they, you know, 31:07 ultimately you may you check I only want 31:10 new customers only in this PMAX campaign 31:12 and it's still going to like funnel in 31:14 what it wants. Uh, do you find 31:18 Meta is good or bad at like actually 31:22 doing that? 31:24 >> Way better than Google. Way better. 31:26 >> That's interesting. 31:28 >> Yeah. I'd say like I would give it 31:31 90% accuracy, 80% accuracy. Like it's 31:34 it's good enough that we're not 31:36 complaining about it. Um on Google I 31:38 think it's horrific. Like I think 31:40 >> it is horrific. 31:41 >> It's really bad. 31:43 >> For that reason. 31:44 >> Yeah. 31:44 >> Um but you know met Met is quite good 31:47 and so like I would always have the 31:49 exclusions always have it in a separate 31:51 campaign. Um 31:53 yeah. So you you would you know again 31:56 like if you sell a product that's with 31:58 10% like a product category or brand 32:00 with 10% margin versus something 32:01 obviously that you've got like 80% 32:03 margin that's more than likely a 32:06 potential way like all right we we need 32:08 to segment due to the unit economics 32:10 here um maybe different geo targeting 32:13 purposes 32:15 uh or then it comes down to just really 32:18 like a strategic thing like repeat 32:19 customers versus new only. Um, what 32:23 about remarketing specific campaigns? Do 32:25 those exist in your guys' structure 32:27 today at all? 32:28 >> Not really. Not really. Um, because Meta 32:32 will spend so much on middle of funnel 32:34 anyway that it's like why do we need to 32:38 spend more? Um, and you can see this in 32:41 your audience segment breakdowns in 32:42 matter where you define new, engaged, 32:45 existing. And you'll see that like 32:47 engaged in almost every ad account gets 32:49 plenty of spend like plenty of spend. 32:51 And so, do we need to go and pump even 32:54 more spend behind engaged? Um, what some 32:57 people will do is they'll go, "No, no, 32:59 no, no, no. We'll exclude engaged. Let's 33:02 not even have website visitors getting 33:04 targeted in the cold campaigns and then 33:06 let's serve them what we believe is 33:08 middle ofunnel creative that's going to 33:10 get them over the line." Um, the issue 33:12 with that, like in theory, it's good. 33:14 The issue is that anytime we've excluded 33:16 website visitors from cold targeting 33:17 campaigns, it's actually decreased 33:19 performance substantially. And so and 33:22 like that's the data. The theory is that 33:26 if someone clicks on the website and 33:28 then the second they hit the website 33:30 they're excluded from the funnel that 33:33 Meta was optimizing across serving 33:35 different sequences of ads. You've 33:37 effectively like broken the learning and 33:39 so uh it's just never worked for us to 33:43 segment like that. 33:45 >> What about sales? What about like if 33:46 you're running, you know, u Black Friday 33:50 deals or you're running some sort of 33:52 crazy sale for like a weekend. Do you 33:53 just throw that into the mix of your 33:56 current, you know, testing campaign 33:58 structure? Um or do you run that in its 34:01 own campaign? 34:03 >> Own campaign always. Um so it doesn't 34:06 disrupt the main campaign. Uh is really 34:09 the main one. like you don't want to 34:10 disrupt the evergreen campaign at all 34:12 with sales assets because the campaign 34:15 will if it's a CBO all the budget will 34:17 go to the sale. Um, if it's an [ __ ] it 34:22 muddies up the data from just a 34:23 reporting perspective. And the type of 34:26 customers that buy through sale assets 34:28 are either warm already. So, you're 34:30 effectively just launching like a warm 34:32 campaign 34:33 >> or 34:34 >> they're a completely new audience that 34:36 only resonates with sale assets, which 34:38 we also don't want to like we don't want 34:40 to let that bleed into the evergreen 34:42 campaign. We want the evergreen campaign 34:43 to just continue learning as normal 34:45 against fullpriced customers. And you 34:47 would still I mean we didn't really talk 34:49 about this but I'm assuming 34:51 your campaigns are predominantly broad 34:55 targeting uh unless you're excluding 34:59 customers 35:01 from your cold prospecting campaign. 35:05 Yeah, it's all broad. Um, except for 35:07 obviously the existing customer 35:08 retargeting is a custom audience and 35:10 then uh there'll be exclusions on broad 35:13 most of the time 35:15 >> you would have but like a deal campaign 35:17 you just broad targeting too because you 35:19 know Meta is going to know what it's 35:20 happened to. 35:21 >> Yeah. Yeah. Most of the time. 35:24 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, 35:28 do you guys 35:31 when it comes to then the tracking side, 35:33 do you like do anything? Do you a do you 35:36 actually use Meta's 35:39 data? Um, or are you guys using I would 35:43 assume I mean I I'll let you answer that 35:45 but are you using Meta's data and are 35:49 you doing any like conversion tracking 35:52 manipulation like some people are 35:53 sending like LTV numbers in and they're 35:56 manipul like so they might buy a product 35:57 but they know that product actually has 35:59 like a you know a 10x LTV from what that 36:02 first purchase is so they'll like feed 36:04 that in. Are you are you doing anything 36:05 like that or how do you guys go back or 36:08 go go about like just tracking in 36:11 general with meta? 36:13 >> Yeah, so 36:15 we use in platform attribution 36:19 uh but we'll always take viewroughs out. 36:21 So we'll always look at 7-day click or 36:23 one day engaged. Sometimes we'll even 36:25 get the one day engaged out but we'll 36:27 keep it most of the time. Um that's 36:29 really like the northstar in platform 36:31 for optimizing. I think that adding an 36:34 MTA in usually adds more noise than 36:37 signal. Um, you end up looking at core 36:41 adsets that are doing well and you look 36:42 in platform, you look at 7-day click and 36:44 you go they're doing well and then 36:45 you'll look at triple whale and triple 36:46 whale will say they're not doing well 36:47 and then you're in a position where 36:48 you're like ah 36:50 how do I make a decision? So, we like to 36:52 remove that noise. Uh, everything is 36:54 always being correlated against backend 36:56 numbers. um that becomes very very 36:59 difficult once you start to stretch into 37:00 nine figure brands when there's so many 37:03 platforms firing at once and like 37:05 revenue is going to go up and down and 37:06 it's probably irrespective of what this 37:08 one adset in meta is doing um in which 37:11 case we will layer in conversion lift 37:13 tests in the platform um and we'll also 37:17 layer in geolo lift tests uh which we 37:19 built out in our own software so that we 37:21 can just get incrementality reads on 37:24 meta and Google um from a perspective 37:27 like pushing custom events into meta. 37:29 I'd say it's the thing we do the least 37:31 of. I know like in fact we have a couple 37:34 mutual friends that do a lot of it and 37:36 they love tweaking like the way that 37:38 events are flowing back into the 37:40 platform and trying to see how they can 37:42 uh impact results there. I think there's 37:45 value in it. I just 37:48 personally uh my ideology says that 37:51 there is more value in focusing on 37:54 better creative strategy and focusing on 37:57 better ecom strategy than trying to 38:00 tweak the events. Um and the this is 38:04 always my issue with like trying to 38:06 figure out which optimization setting 38:08 works best at an attribution setting 38:10 level or like any of these tiny tweaks. 38:14 And I say this to the team and this is 38:15 like very very clear within our testing 38:17 methodology is that if we expect a 2% 38:20 lift from a change, do the change, but 38:23 don't expect to ever be able to prove it 38:25 and therefore we won't be able to roll 38:26 it out as an SOP. And so if we can't 38:29 prove it, then we don't know and we're 38:32 kind of just in theory land. And so it 38:36 we start to build into a SOPed account 38:40 structure that's completely theoretical 38:42 and that we can't actually back with any 38:44 data. And so I would rather take 20% 38:47 swings rather than like 2 3% swings that 38:50 are unprovable. 38:53 >> Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Cuz like some 38:55 people are using mutual friends. I'm you 38:57 John and Kaden I'm assuming uh which 39:00 good dudes love love love following them 39:02 on on everything but yeah I know they 39:04 use a lot of like uh they try to do like 39:06 first click you know cold traffic only 39:10 data like sending that in um they're 39:12 probably doing I I I haven't followed 39:14 some of the probably recent stuff so 39:16 maybe they're doing like even more 39:18 manipulation of that I think John also 39:20 is a big proponent of a one campaign one 39:22 ad set structure with like all the ad 39:24 creative thrown in it which I don't I 39:28 don't I don't necessarily buy into that 39:30 from what I've seen, but 39:32 >> comment on that. 39:32 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. 39:34 >> Yeah. The like the issue with I said 39:37 this to uh I said this to a very very 39:40 big team in info the other day who I was 39:42 helping on uh their info campaigns that 39:44 are like ripping right now. And I said 39:46 that at the end of the day, account 39:49 structure means nothing. And you can go 39:52 into any account and be like, "Oh, this 39:55 this structure rips." If like condition 39:59 if there is two to three absolute 40:02 crushing winning ads, like if you have 40:05 two to three ads that are just ripping 40:08 on cold, it doesn't matter what you do, 40:11 the account will rip. And so that's 40:13 where you see accounts that are like one 40:15 campaign, one ad set, everything under 40:16 it. And you go, "This is ripping." And 40:19 it's like, yeah, because it's not 40:21 because of the structure. It's because 40:23 of two to three ads that are elite and 40:25 the brand is already doing $60 million a 40:27 year. And so they also have a bit of 40:30 >> which is why like figuring out account 40:31 structure efficiency gain is so 40:33 difficult because it's so like at the 40:35 end of the day like the big needle mover 40:36 is if you have a ad that's ripping, put 40:39 it anywhere like it'll rip. 40:41 >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was like if I had the 40:45 cure for cancer and I just put an ad 40:48 like a static that like literally is 40:49 like I I found the cure for cancer and 40:51 I'm giving it away for free. Like I 40:53 don't think anything technical matters 40:56 [laughter] 40:56 for a meta ad at that point. It's like 40:59 uh that's going to it's going to it's 41:01 going to do well, right? It doesn't 41:02 matter what what campaign that sits in 41:04 or what ads set it sits in. So 41:07 ultimately the offer or the brand, you 41:08 know, uh matters a lot. It's funny. I 41:11 listen to uh I'm sure Cole Gordon, he 41:14 he's like a sales training guy, but um 41:17 he talks about like ads a lot too and he 41:21 says it's funny that this is just about 41:23 brand equity and how much it actually 41:25 can impact just your own meta ads. Like 41:29 he's like I you could have a terrible 41:30 ad, but some of their clients just are 41:33 such big brands and personalities that 41:36 it doesn't matter. He's like if I ran 41:38 those ads for my brand it would flop. 41:40 but they can just throw anything at it 41:42 and it's going to work. And it's just 41:44 interesting when you have like the 41:46 privilege to work with big like I've 41:49 worked with some pretty big brands and 41:52 it's like guys you could just do 41:53 whatever you want at this point. Like 41:56 really it's kind of just trying to is 41:57 there any inefficiency that's just like 41:59 really dumb money that's being spent? 42:01 Like maybe let's pull that out. But 42:03 otherwise, like, yeah, you don't have to 42:05 go like too crazy and complex on on any 42:08 of this since you guys have so much 42:10 brand equity you can live on. Also, 42:12 that's the other thing like too many 42:14 people I think try to copy then some of 42:16 these big brands and like, "Wow, look 42:17 what Lululemon's doing." Like, it's 42:19 [ __ ] Lululemon, man. like they can 42:21 kind of you know they can but they're 42:23 probably if you like got the privilege 42:25 of auditing their account or accounts I 42:27 don't think you would be amazed by like 42:29 they're doing some magical structure 42:32 that you're not like no it's just it's 42:35 Lulu limit right so they they spend you 42:38 know millions upon millions of dollars 42:40 on marketing and everyone knows them by 42:42 now so they can kind of get away with 42:43 whatever in regards to like a structural 42:46 standpoint 42:47 >> and I've seen diabolical ad accounts on 42:50 nine figure brands and I'm like and this 42:52 is what this was a good perspective 42:55 shift for me probably like a year and a 42:57 half ago maybe a year ago which is that 42:59 I I was very of the opinion that um like 43:03 performance marketing is number one and 43:06 brand is absolutely meaningless and 43:08 wishwashy and like who cares about brand 43:11 and that was a function 43:12 >> that was a function of me working with 43:14 really small businesses at the time like 43:16 three four years ago and the small 43:17 businesses who would focus on brand. I 43:20 was like, "What are you doing? Just 43:22 crank spend. Business grows." And I 43:25 think that's true when you're small. 43:26 Like when you're small, it's like 43:28 >> don't worry about brand when you're not 43:30 making a dollar of revenue. Like 43:31 >> agree. Yes. 43:32 >> Make some sales. 43:34 >> But then once you get to the big 43:35 leagues, you look at like massive like 43:38 fashion ad accounts that we manage and 43:40 you're like, "Okay, we're at a 7x uh 43:43 7-day click rorowaz on these accounts, 43:44 spending millions a month." And then you 43:47 look at a small fashion brand doing half 43:50 a million dollars a month or a4 million 43:51 a month and they're struggling to get a 43:53 4x 43:55 account structure, same ads, same 43:58 approach, same KPIs, same scaling. It's 44:01 like what's the difference? It and these 44:03 guys are operating at 20x the ad spend. 44:06 It's that these guys have such high 44:08 brand awareness within the market and 44:11 there's been like this compounding of 44:13 the last 10 years of everyone becoming 44:15 so familiar with them that 44:18 these guys just rip off brand and these 44:20 guys haven't got it yet. 44:22 >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree. And it's 44:24 funny cuz like brand agencies speak. 44:26 It's weird in the agency world there's a 44:28 split with brand and then performance 44:30 marketers. It's like so performance 44:31 marketers think it's like all 44:32 performance marketing and that's a lot 44:35 of digital agencies, right? Like you and 44:37 I and then you like brand traditional 44:39 agencies are like no it's brand like 44:41 literally like I [clears throat] talked 44:42 to brand agencies that were like opposed 44:44 to digital marketing back in the day 44:47 like they just thought it was like oh 44:49 that you know that's that's all garbage 44:51 or whatever. like just talking about 44:53 like how to like set up proper like ads 44:56 for an account like they they it had to 44:59 just be pretty. It had to like be on you 45:01 know the brand guidelines had to be met. 45:03 It just had to look really good and 45:04 that's all they cared about. It wasn't 45:06 results. So then you know it's very much 45:07 impressionbased 45:09 uh metrics that they were going after 45:10 back then. Um but to me it's like it's 45:14 so weird because it's just how humans 45:16 always are. There's always you get into 45:17 a camp of some sort. But like, yeah, the 45:21 the the 45:23 biggest companies I've met are are they 45:26 have big brands, but they're also very 45:28 smart at performance marketing, too. 45:29 Like, don't get it like they're not 45:31 lazy. Like, some are and they can get 45:33 away with it, but I have met some big 45:36 brands that, boy, they run some 45:39 sophisticated performance marketing, 45:40 too, and they just lean into the brand 45:43 equity they have, which then helps 45:44 propel it 10x than if they didn't have 45:46 that. So they they just understood both 45:49 worlds very well. But brand is very 45:51 powerful. I think it's the most powerful 45:53 thing when you are uh at a a big level 45:56 at least. And you can even see that 45:58 today with how 46:00 I mean think about like SEO, AEO, 46:02 whatever in regards to like brand 46:05 technically especially in the LLM. It's 46:07 like these mentions. Well, what does 46:08 that mean? That just means like PR and 46:10 brand essentially, right? the bigger 46:11 your brand is, the the the more 46:13 opportunity you have to actually even 46:16 get recommended within an LLM. And so, 46:18 it's not necessarily spamming back 46:20 links. It's literally if you have like 46:22 if you have a growing brand, you're 46:24 you're probably going to have better 46:25 opportunities of also just getting, you 46:27 know, picked up from uh these LLMs today 46:30 as well. So, yeah, I I think it's uh uh 46:33 insanely important. A lot of people um 46:36 either a get too deep into it and they 46:38 think it's the only thing that matters 46:40 and then like they have failing like we 46:42 I I've had this gets weird, right? Cuz 46:44 I've had clients where they're small, 46:46 they're so 46:48 crazy about their brand and like we had 46:51 ads that actually started generating 46:53 like really good sales for them, but 46:54 they didn't like the ad. And you're 46:56 like, who cares, guys? You make almost 46:58 no money from meta ads right now. Like, 47:00 and we're starting to scale. And it's 47:02 like, we can't do it. we it has to fit 47:04 this like look for us and we're like but 47:06 that didn't that that doesn't work for 47:08 this like specific funnel for whatever 47:10 reason that's working and they I' I'm 47:12 not kidding I've had a client shut down 47:15 ads that worked just because they it 47:18 didn't fit their their brand which to me 47:20 is just absolutely bananas um because I 47:22 I think you can feed into both but it is 47:26 interesting to see at that level 47:28 >> yeah I agree 47:29 >> lead gen structure anything different 47:31 from what you talked about on ecom. 47:34 >> Um, 47:36 [clears throat] 47:38 no like it all the all the fundamentals 47:40 are the same uh really which is only 47:43 segment at the campaign level if there's 47:46 a clear difference in unit economics 47:49 sale existing versus new um or 47:55 very different offer like if you're 47:57 running two very different funnels. So 48:00 like in lead genen you might run like a 48:02 book a call and then you might run a 48:03 lead magnet funnel like obviously 48:05 segment that at the campaign level. Um 48:08 but then all the same stuff in terms of 48:10 how you want to be thinking about 48:11 creative testing. Bundle your creatives 48:13 into concepts have full stages of 48:16 awareness in terms of your different 48:18 ads. Top of funnel, middle of funnel, 48:19 bottom of funnel. Um 48:22 yeah. Yeah. Fundamentals are similar. 48:25 >> Okay let's move on to creative. I know 48:27 we spent a lot of time on structure 48:29 there. Um, how much ad creative do you 48:31 really need? I know we got into it a 48:33 tad, but like let's go deep there now. 48:36 >> Yeah, I think the the easy So, there's 48:38 like a hard answer, easy answer. Easy 48:40 answer is uh every $1,000 a month in ad 48:43 spend, have one ad. And so, if you're 48:46 spending 30k a month, try to get 30 new 48:49 ads a month into the account. Um the 48:53 hard answer which is which is what we 48:56 try to solve for like then you can go 48:57 into a rabbit hole of all of these 48:59 different ways to try to back propagate 49:00 into ad volume. Uh one of the ways you 49:03 can do it is you can look at average 49:05 spend per ad. So of all the ads that 49:07 you're putting in the account, what do 49:08 they spend on average? And then you can 49:09 go okay well what's our average return? 49:12 Uh let's say it's like 4x. So okay each 49:14 ad's making us $8,000. And then you go, 49:17 okay, well, if each ad makes us $8,000 49:19 and we want to do $800,000 in revenue, 49:22 we need 100 ads because each ad does 49:24 $8,000 in revenue. Um, so that's called 49:27 like a we call that a revenue based uh 49:30 creative model. And then we have a churn 49:32 based creative model, which is um 49:35 another way of looking at it, which is 49:37 rather than looking at what's the 49:38 revenue potential of ads, we look at no 49:40 actually how quickly do ads churn out of 49:43 the account. So, we put a new ad in, how 49:45 quickly does it die and get turned off 49:47 or go to practically zero spend. And the 49:51 formula, I actually don't know it off 49:52 the top of my head. It sits in a sits in 49:54 a tool we have. Um, but effectively, you 49:56 want to look at monthly churn of ads. 49:58 You start the month, how many ads you 50:00 got? 20. End of the month, how many ads 50:02 of these original ones are left? 10. 50:04 Okay. You have a 50% monthly churn of 50:07 created. And so, to keep up your 50:09 revenue, you obviously need to replace 50:10 the churn. And so, you 50:12 >> And what do you mean? What do you mean 50:13 by left? Like they just they were losers 50:15 and you paused them? 50:17 >> Yeah, losers and paused them or spend 50:19 went to practically zero. Like spend's 50:22 gone down a lot. 50:24 >> But when you say and this might lead 50:26 into then how many ads per ad set, but 50:29 for you said for every 1,000 have one 50:32 new ad basically. Uh unless you do the 50:35 the revenue model you just talked about 50:37 or churn model. Um, but what does that 50:41 like what does that mean? Let's say I'm 50:42 spending 10,000 a month. So that that 50:44 means I need, you know, 10 new ads per 50:47 month. Where does that go though? Like 50:50 do I and and so is it let's say you have 50:53 a few different adets running to 50:55 different, you know, avatars. Is it 50:57 based off of what you're talking about? 50:58 Well, like this adset, there was a lot 51:00 of losers that we had to pause out, so 51:02 let's feed more there. How do you go 51:04 about then the actual if I need 51:07 mathematically I spend 10k I need 10 51:10 like how are you actually approaching 51:12 that from the standpoint of the 51:14 production side and planning for those 51:16 10. 51:17 >> Yeah. Like this right here is where I 51:20 think there is value in creative 51:23 strategy. And so when people like ask 51:25 the question like what do you because we 51:27 don't do creative production and so then 51:29 you ask okay so you do this creative 51:31 strategy like what is that like what are 51:34 we talking about and it's like solving 51:36 that question right there which is okay 51:39 we need to make 10 ads 51:41 what does that look like are we doing 51:43 three different personas are we doing 10 51:46 different personas then okay once we 51:48 make this content like how does it show 51:50 up in the account um and that's it's not 51:54 Maybe we can try to SOP it but right now 51:56 we don't have a textbook of like okay 10 51:58 ads equals three concepts equals this 52:00 because it's going to be a little bit 52:02 flexible based on the account. So is 52:05 there a particular and the goals of the 52:07 business too like is there a particular 52:09 concept that's crushing right now and 52:11 we're going to go ah we should double 52:12 down. So all 10 of those assets next 52:14 month, let's make it all around this 52:16 persona, all around this concept. But we 52:19 want to try a different format because 52:22 we know this format is crushing for a 52:24 couple other accounts that we manage as 52:25 well as your competitors. And that 52:27 format is animation ads. And so we 52:30 recommend like this freelancer will make 52:33 10 animation ads. We will do the 52:35 scripting. This is what it should look 52:36 like because we know beat forbe what 52:38 these ads should look like to do well. 52:40 and then we're going to put that in its 52:42 own adset. And like that would be the 52:44 strategy for this month. And then next 52:45 month we go, "Oh, that failed. It was 52:47 bad. Like here's why we think it failed. 52:49 We thought the scripting was probably 52:51 off cuz the hook rates were bad. And uh 52:54 maybe this just doesn't work in your ad 52:56 account." So instead, let's broaden out 52:58 and let's of your 10 ads, let's 53:01 diversify three different concepts, 53:03 three ads for each and let's go uh a mix 53:06 of videos and images across them. And 53:08 this is what they should look like. You 53:10 still 53:11 >> you still base that off of like if you 53:14 have a client at your guys's agency, if 53:17 it's 50,000 in spend, you you really are 53:20 like, "Hey, we got to kind of produce 50 53:22 new ads for them." Or is it just kind of 53:24 like, "Nah, let's just see what the data 53:26 shows. Maybe they don't need 50 even 53:28 though they spent 50,000." 53:30 >> It's usually pretty close. Um, yeah. So 53:33 there will be a bit of like like because 53:36 we have some like really big accounts 53:38 that um spend like a mill or 2 mil a 53:43 month and in those cases like you run 53:45 you run any of the models or you run 53:46 just the basic one ad per thousand 53:48 you're like damn these guys need 2,000 53:51 ads and they might be launching like 500 53:54 when I audit. And I'm very very like uh 53:59 non-committal in my recommendations 54:01 these days in audits where like I used 54:03 to come in and this is what we were kind 54:04 of talking about the start like a year 54:06 and a half ago I'd come in I'd be like 54:07 you need 2,000 apps why are you 54:09 launching 500 you need 2,000. 54:11 >> Yeah. 54:11 >> And then we would go and ramp to 2,00 54:15 and it would make a marginal impact. Um 54:18 and it would be like you said we needed 54:19 2,000. And I was like, well, the data 54:21 set it, but in reality, yeah, we should 54:25 >> we didn't need it. [laughter] 54:26 >> Yeah, like we didn't need it. 54:29 >> So these days, we are a little bit more 54:30 flexible on like, look, I'll I'll say I 54:32 said, look, the data says 2,000. 54:35 >> I That's kind of crazy. 4xing your 54:38 volume. So instead, let's go to 600, 54:40 700. See what happens. Like, let's do a 54:43 little bit of a test. Let's flex up. Um, 54:45 here's what the content should look 54:46 like. Let's run a test. And if it works, 54:48 cool. All right. we can start step 54:49 stoning our way up which I think is a 54:50 much more reasonable 54:52 uh holistic approach now rather than 54:54 just like being the ad volume guy that's 54:56 just like volume volume put volume in 54:58 the account um 55:00 >> and if it doesn't work it doesn't play 55:01 out 55:02 >> did you need that much volume like I I 55:04 know this is going back to the what we 55:06 talked about earlier in structure but 55:08 did you actually need that much volume 55:12 before a couple years ago like I like I 55:15 you know I've met I so many big big 55:20 spending companies that really didn't 55:22 run too much creative testing until 55:25 recently and they did like really well 55:27 before, right? And so it's like, well, 55:30 why was it and they lived off some 55:32 winners, but it's like is that do 55:34 winners not ride as long today or is it 55:37 just takes that much longer to find 55:38 winners? 55:40 >> Um, 55:42 I I actually think it's a combination of 55:43 a couple things. I think number one, the 55:46 algorithm definitely shifted a little 55:47 bit, which is that um your ads go to 55:53 more specific audiences faster, but 55:56 therefore fatigue faster these days. And 55:58 so I think the algorithm is actually 56:00 better at taking an ad and serving it to 56:02 a really relevant high intent audience 56:04 very quickly. Um but as a function of 56:06 that you end up with and then this is 56:09 like number two the human side is that 56:12 because of that people overindex towards 56:16 very persona specific ads that aren't 56:18 scalable to very wide audiences. And so 56:21 when you're putting very specific ads in 56:23 the account and you get a dopamine hit 56:25 and they do really well for 7 10 14 days 56:28 you go let's do more of that. But the 56:30 issue is those very specific ads don't 56:33 scale. Cuz when you're talking to a 56:34 menopausal woman that's only based in 56:36 this particular state in a in a warm 56:38 area, it's like, well, yeah, like you're 56:42 only going to be able to spend 20 30k on 56:43 that ad and then it's done. And so 56:45 people are making less broad, very 56:49 scalable ads, which is what their 56:51 algorithm used to more so favor. Um, 56:53 which kind of leads into number three, 56:55 which is I think with the massive ramp 56:57 up in volume, 56:59 people are like using AI a lot. They're 57:01 trying everything they can do to get 57:03 more volume in which is substantially 57:06 decreasing quality. And I really like 57:09 Mark builds brands. I don't know if 57:10 you've ever seen him. He's never has a 57:12 shirt on. His lid's always out. 57:14 >> I don't I've heard the name, but I Yeah, 57:17 I'm sure I have, but I can't Yeah. Yeah. 57:19 I can't. He makes meta meta ads content 57:22 on YouTube and instar. 57:23 >> Oh, the Yeah. Yeah. Jacked guy. Yeah. 57:25 Okay. I know. 57:27 >> Um and he like the one thing I really 57:30 like about his content is that his main 57:32 focus is on copywriting, script writing, 57:37 and like the quality of fundamental 57:39 marketing. And I the reason why I think 57:42 it does so well and the reason why I 57:44 really like his context because no one 57:45 else does it. like you don't like people 57:48 are making media buying content or 57:50 people are making like ecom strategy or 57:52 like offer strategy and like all these 57:54 things but no one's being like how do I 57:56 actually script a good ad that appeals 57:58 to the masses. 57:59 >> Um 58:00 >> and so people actually just aren't very 58:03 good at making ads particularly when you 58:04 can rely on AI to just like claude slop 58:07 a script together and like off it goes. 58:10 Um, and I think that like, and I've seen 58:14 this personally firsthand with a few 58:16 clients who have gone from zero to 34 58:20 million a month in revenue in 60 days on 58:23 new businesses because they are elite 58:26 copywriters and script writers. And so 58:29 they will just have AI ads that are 58:31 scripted so phenomenally well that just 58:33 like bang, they can hold a quart million 58:34 dollars and spend it a month and they 58:36 just go straight to millions a month. 58:38 And that is like the big arbitrage that 58:40 I see at the moment is that people have 58:42 weighted against our copyrightiting 58:44 doesn't matter, scripting doesn't matter 58:46 and that's why people are probably 58:47 finding less big winning ads and there's 58:49 all this velocity and volume but it's 58:51 crap volume. 58:53 >> Yeah, it's well you mean you look at 58:55 like obviously Alex from Mosy talks a 58:58 lot about like oh you just have to talk 59:00 to every like individuals make a 59:02 business. He he kind of is like talk 59:03 talk talks about you know obviously Alex 59:05 doesn't run meta ads but like himself so 59:10 he is just kind of regurgitating I would 59:12 assume what his team's telling him but 59:14 he's got a lot of data and I know he's I 59:16 I'm pretty sure they use multiple 59:17 agencies and I obviously has school as 59:20 well and I think there's multiple 59:21 agencies involved over there too but 59:23 it's funny because you can see what 59:25 they're pumping out which is literally 59:26 like are you a blank we want to help you 59:30 and it's like they're just targeting 59:32 every word known to man is that's a 59:35 business. Uh so like an industry cuz 59:38 I've I I actually got their ads. I was 59:39 like well the targeting did hit me. It 59:41 was like do you own a paid agency doing 59:43 over a million year in revenue? We want 59:44 to help you. You're like 59:45 >> over it was accurate. 59:47 >> Just static. It was just static with 59:49 text. That's all it said. And it was to 59:51 his workshop that he was trying to sell. 59:53 Uh which I think you've been out there 59:54 in Vegas. Um yeah. So, uh, but that that 59:59 they were like running thousands of 1:00:01 those and I'm sure it it worked to an 1:00:04 extent, but yeah. So, then there's a lot 1:00:06 of people I know who are like, let's do 1:00:08 that. So, they're like trying to call 1:00:10 out like it'd be like you you like 1:00:11 obviously you you're very hyperfocused 1:00:13 on ecom. We're about we do a lot of 1:00:16 ecom. We have a ton of ecom clients, but 1:00:19 you know, we we work with also a lot of 1:00:23 uh lead genen, not not SAS um as much, 1:00:27 but like we do have a lot of lead genen 1:00:28 as well. So, it's been hard. We we 1:00:29 haven't like gone too industry specific 1:00:33 because the data has yet to show me that 1:00:35 I need to. [laughter] Um, but with that 1:00:38 said, like, you know, for us, for 1:00:42 example, I could go try to call out like 1:00:45 every type of local service-based 1:00:47 business. And he's like, do you go do 1:00:49 that or do you not? Is that like a total 1:00:52 waste of time or do you just go do you 1:00:53 go generic or broad, hey, local 1:00:56 service-based businesses, or do you go 1:00:58 and I see guys literally, you know, you 1:01:00 can look at their ads. They're calling 1:01:02 every single type individual. It's like 1:01:04 they're running funnels for every single 1:01:07 type. Now, they may be able to service 1:01:08 all types of businesses, but they'll 1:01:11 call a plumber out, they'll call, you 1:01:13 know, a painter out, they'll call a 1:01:15 veterinarian out, like they'll just 1:01:17 they'll just individually call them all 1:01:18 out and run them through individual 1:01:20 funnels. I'm assuming they're using a 1:01:21 lot of AI to help produce uh the pages 1:01:25 and the ads. But are you seeing that 1:01:28 type of hyperargeting 1:01:30 actually be beneficial, or is that a 1:01:32 complete waste of time? 1:01:36 The first uh Instagram reel I made was 1:01:40 that like blew up that got a couple 1:01:41 hundred thousand views was me calling 1:01:43 out Horoszi's ad account and going like 1:01:46 what is he doing here? Like these 1:01:47 persona call outs across the entire ad 1:01:50 account. Um the thing with so I am not a 1:01:53 believer in hypersp specific persona 1:01:56 call outs. Little bit broader persona 1:01:59 call outs I am. Um, and this is so that 1:02:04 like there's a bit of data that we we've 1:02:06 tested hasn't really worked. Um, and 1:02:08 then there's also my subjective 1:02:10 experience, which is why I thought it 1:02:11 was funny that you got that specific ad 1:02:13 because I get persona call out ads all 1:02:15 the time on my feed and they're always 1:02:18 completely wrong. Like I get ads that 1:02:20 are saying like if you were a plumber 1:02:21 and I'm like I'm not. What what is 1:02:23 >> Yeah, I will say I got I so I was served 1:02:27 also plenty of incorrect ones as well. 1:02:30 So like I think one was like po like a a 1:02:33 poetry not what was it was like pottery 1:02:36 business. It was like like he was 1:02:38 running something for like and this I 1:02:40 think would have been for school, not 1:02:41 for um his uh acquisition.com workshop 1:02:45 thing. But 1:02:46 >> but uh I got plenty of incorrect ones, 1:02:49 but eventually I I did see and it 1:02:51 stopped me before I knew what I was 1:02:53 reading. I was like, "Oh, this is Alex's 1:02:55 ad." But it I finally got one that was 1:02:58 me basically that they were calling out. 1:03:00 But I got a bunch of the junk ones then, 1:03:02 too, that were incorrect. 1:03:04 >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I don't think 1:03:05 the targeting is good enough at all for 1:03:08 uh that specific person based targeting. 1:03:11 Um number one, like that's number one. I 1:03:14 don't think the targeting is actually as 1:03:15 good as like Alex's team believes it is. 1:03:18 Um do I think if if you broaden a little 1:03:20 bit, do I think it is? Yeah. Like I 1:03:23 think if you if you broaden like let's 1:03:24 not go to peptide clinic owners, which 1:03:27 is something that he's targeting, and 1:03:28 let's just like zoom out a bit and go to 1:03:29 a higher level category and I think 1:03:31 you'd be fine. Um, I think number two, 1:03:34 it has a negative impact on when you're 1:03:36 like getting all of these different 1:03:38 persona based static served to you and 1:03:39 you're like because the idea of a 1:03:41 persona based static is that it's hyper 1:03:44 specific and speaks to me and I'm like, 1:03:46 "Oh, what? I'm a Yeah, I own a peptide 1:03:49 clinic and these guys are doing a 1:03:51 peptide clinic workshop. That's crazy." 1:03:53 All right. And so it's super high intent 1:03:55 because of their personalization, but 1:03:57 you completely lose all the 1:03:58 personalization when you get six 1:04:00 different ones of all these different uh 1:04:02 industries. And you're like, "Ah, this 1:04:04 is like they're just saying this to 1:04:05 everyone." 1:04:06 >> Yeah. 1:04:07 >> And then the third issue was I actually 1:04:09 don't believe they're good ads at all in 1:04:11 terms of script writing, copywriting, or 1:04:13 anything. It's just like, "Hey, do you 1:04:15 want to give me money? Well, I have a 1:04:17 workshop." Or like, "I'm a paid ads 1:04:19 agency. Please hire me." But it's like, 1:04:21 why? What's the problem agitation? Like 1:04:24 where's the authority building? Where's 1:04:26 the credibility? Like all of the 1:04:27 elements that create a fantastic ad just 1:04:29 like now throw it in the bin and just 1:04:32 say hey if you are this person please 1:04:33 give me money. And I'm like I don't 1:04:36 think that's a high quality cold. 1:04:38 >> Yeah. Do you find today I've I've heard 1:04:41 this I don't have it's interesting 1:04:44 because we're like testing this a bit 1:04:46 with our own um ads and funnels here at 1:04:48 Grow My Ads for our own selves. uh but 1:04:54 people are less likely today to stay on 1:04:58 the landing page itself and they're 1:05:01 learning more from the ads. So, and so 1:05:04 this is where like video comes into play 1:05:06 where you almost have to what used to 1:05:09 sell like let's say and and this is 1:05:11 probably more in the info world or like 1:05:13 service-based businesses such as you 1:05:15 know grow my ads as an agency where like 1:05:17 you would run a VSSL right but people 1:05:19 are less likely to actually spend time 1:05:20 watching that VSSL but they would watch 1:05:23 the ad as a VSSL and of course people 1:05:26 are going to skip through it but it's 1:05:28 like you have to kind of like get the 1:05:30 pain the offer to them in the creative 1:05:34 and then they're going to make the 1:05:36 decision on the page quickly. So, you 1:05:37 got to make that super easy to them. I 1:05:40 would assume different avatars will 1:05:42 behave differently in regards to this. I 1:05:44 think those that are probably higher 1:05:46 income are less likely to spend time on 1:05:50 a full educational VSSL video and it's 1:05:52 just like what do you Okay, I've got 1:05:54 that pain. You can solve it. Cool. I 1:05:56 I'll talk to you, right? And I'm, you 1:05:58 know, you're going to do a quick due 1:05:59 diligence, but you're not going to spend 1:06:01 time on a 20-minute VSSL. Do you find in 1:06:05 ecom so because I think that's probably 1:06:08 more of a info service-based thing but 1:06:11 in ecom do you find that like hey yeah 1:06:14 like you know what used to work well in 1:06:16 regards to like pages it's like actually 1:06:19 the ad creative still now has the the 1:06:22 importance of ad creative telling the 1:06:25 story is more important today than ever 1:06:28 before due to behavioral changes. 1:06:31 It's actually it's a such a good 1:06:33 question and it's really hard to say 1:06:36 because both still work really well. 1:06:39 Yeah. And so as a generalization, we 1:06:43 will always try to do both, which is 1:06:44 that we have in ecom, there's some 1:06:46 accounts that we manage that have like 1:06:48 an 8 minute bsl styled ad um that's 1:06:53 crazy like unaware, problem aware, 1:06:57 solution aware, like pulling people 1:06:58 through all the stages of awareness for 1:07:00 eight minutes. And then when they click, 1:07:02 it's like they're so primed to purchase, 1:07:04 just like put them straight on a PDP and 1:07:05 let them buy as quickly as possible. Um, 1:07:08 and then vice versa. A really high 1:07:11 performing um, ad type in supplements 1:07:15 selling to old people is what's called 1:07:17 native statics. Um, for like the 1:07:19 audience, a native static is a image, 1:07:23 typically an AI generated image that is 1:07:26 super super broad and you're like super 1:07:29 native to the platform, but you don't 1:07:30 know what's going on. And so an example 1:07:32 would be like a grandma on her chair 1:07:35 leaned over looking frustrated trying to 1:07:37 pick up a coffee. And so you see it and 1:07:39 you're like, "Oh, what?" And then what 1:07:42 actually sells you is the copy. And you 1:07:44 look at the copy and it goes, "Uh, my 1:07:47 daughter left me yesterday and I can't 1:07:49 believe she did this dot dot dot." And 1:07:51 you go, "Oh, this is a native post. It's 1:07:53 a native page." Click. Boom. Massive 1:07:56 story. Pulls you through this story that 1:07:58 you think is an actual real organic 1:08:00 post. And then by the end it's like this 1:08:02 supplement changed the way that I drink 1:08:04 coffee in the morning. 1:08:05 >> Yeah. It's 1:08:10 >> Yeah. You go to an educational lander. 1:08:12 >> Um 1:08:13 >> it's so bizarre that that stuff works 1:08:15 and it's because I I don't know if I 1:08:16 look at it from just cuz like I'm in the 1:08:18 marketing world. Like I understand what 1:08:20 these are, but you know, it's funny. I 1:08:24 think the best Facebook or metad 1:08:26 advertisers on planet earth are actually 1:08:28 just affiliate marketers who are 1:08:30 incredible. They just have are so dialed 1:08:32 in on copywriting. 1:08:34 And the the reason I I cringe at that a 1:08:38 little bit is cuz that world is filled 1:08:40 with so many con artist characters, but 1:08:43 they're so good at 1:08:47 selling [ __ ] Like, and they're they're 1:08:50 doing that through the art of copy. And 1:08:55 I don't think I do I I think AI can 1:08:58 produce some good stuff if you give it, 1:08:59 you know, the correct uh sources to lean 1:09:02 on. Um, and so as long as your input 1:09:05 sources are are pretty solid, I you 1:09:07 know, you can actually get some good 1:09:08 outputs. But yeah, I I think the best 1:09:11 meta and and so it's weird because at 1:09:13 Grow My Ads, when we've been developing 1:09:15 our meta ad team, we're actually we're 1:09:19 we're trying to hire more. It's funny, 1:09:21 you would think AI is wiping out 1:09:22 copywriters. We're actually trying to 1:09:24 find more copywriters. Like people who 1:09:26 are like they need to be it's it's hard. 1:09:28 I'm trying to hire unicorns essentially, 1:09:30 but they need to be like 1:09:33 They have to have creative strategy, 1:09:35 right, within the meta ad world. But we 1:09:38 are looking for like really strong 1:09:40 copywriting skills because that to us is 1:09:43 actually the most important. And in 1:09:45 fact, we have seen especially like in 1:09:48 the affiliate marketing world, terrible, 1:09:51 terrible creative, but the copy so good 1:09:54 it just absolutely crushes. And like you 1:09:57 said, this you see it with supplement 1:09:59 businesses. We've seen it with a ton of 1:10:00 different products. Um, and not many 1:10:04 companies want to, you know, like go 1:10:06 down that route of like going full-blown 1:10:09 like affiliate marketing style funnels. 1:10:13 Um, but it just shows you the importance 1:10:15 of how copy a absolutely is in my 1:10:19 opinion, you know, it's copy offer, like 1:10:22 those are the most important pieces to 1:10:24 to the game. And uh there's no one 1:10:27 better than the the crazy guys in some 1:10:31 of the underground world of affiliate 1:10:33 marketing that are actually currently 1:10:34 doing that right now spending millions 1:10:36 of dollars per day selling whatever they 1:10:39 can get the most, you know, kickbacks 1:10:41 on. 1:10:42 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. And so like so 1:10:45 like both sides work. You can educate a 1:10:47 ton on the platform. You can have like 1:10:50 this big curiosity gap and then educate 1:10:52 a ton off the platform. Um, I've seen 1:10:55 both funnels crush and we'll try to 1:10:56 always do both. Like if one's doing 1:10:58 well, it's like, "All right, can we can 1:10:59 we lean into the other one?" 1:11:01 >> Are you running? Do you guys Because you 1:11:03 say you do zero creative production, so 1:11:05 you don't actually make any ads for your 1:11:07 clients? 1:11:09 >> Minimal. Like we have a creative team, 1:11:11 but it's only for a few select clients 1:11:12 where we make content. 1:11:14 >> Interesting. So you're selling straight 1:11:16 up just creative strategy services to 1:11:18 them. And they have their own internal 1:11:20 teams in most these businesses you're 1:11:22 working with. 1:11:23 >> Yeah. which is which is why I don't 1:11:24 think we need to do creative production. 1:11:26 Uh it's a function of our client uh 1:11:28 profile. So if we were working with like 1:11:31 uh two to5 million businesses, it they 1:11:35 don't have reliable content creation. 1:11:38 And so that's where I think you need to 1:11:40 do content creation. But once you're 1:11:42 like once a business is at like 15 or 20 1:11:44 million in revenue, they typically have 1:11:47 multiple staff making content in house 1:11:49 and they typically will also have an 1:11:51 agency. And so us coming in and then 1:11:55 throwing even more content on top is 1:11:58 normally a little bit less valuable in 1:12:00 my opinion and adds more complexity than 1:12:02 us just coordinating what's already 1:12:04 happening and saying hey this is all the 1:12:06 resourcing you already have. We would 1:12:08 recommend tweaking it here here and 1:12:09 doing this slightly differently and uh 1:12:11 script in this way and so we more can 1:12:14 direct all the existing resources rather 1:12:16 than trying to add more resources in. 1:12:19 >> Interesting. and you don't find I mean 1:12:21 I'm sure that there's bottlenecks there 1:12:22 with some of those clients but uh with 1:12:25 their own teams producing uh at the pace 1:12:27 that you guys need them to but when you 1:12:30 say their current resources are you 1:12:33 saying from their current like social 1:12:34 media accounts or are you saying hey we 1:12:36 need you to go make this ad or we need a 1:12:40 video and here's how we would you we 1:12:42 would script it go do that and they go 1:12:44 do that for you guys. 1:12:46 >> Yeah. Yeah. like we have we have really 1:12:48 incredible clients which makes it easy 1:12:50 um because they like our clients will 1:12:54 trust us a lot and do what we tell them 1:12:56 to do. It's also quite flexible. So um 1:12:59 like on the on the larger side of 1:13:01 things, we have like clients that are 1:13:04 doing three 400 million a year if you 1:13:06 include retail. Um and they have like 1:13:09 nine people in their content team. And 1:13:11 so at the end of the day like we provide 1:13:13 high level direction. This is what's 1:13:14 performing. This is why we think it is 1:13:16 performing. So, you should do more like 1:13:17 this. Um, but when it comes to like more 1:13:21 people sitting at the table and 1:13:22 providing input on scripting, it's like 1:13:23 they don't need it. There's nine nine 1:13:25 full-time people, let's say a whole job. 1:13:28 Um, and so we can just come in as an 1:13:30 extra seat at the table and be like, 1:13:31 "Hey, here's the performance data. 1:13:33 Here's how we'd interpret it. Here's 1:13:34 what you should be thinking about for 1:13:36 the content that you're creating 1:13:38 tomorrow." Um, so there's obviously 1:13:40 there's always a a 1:13:42 >> interesting 1:13:43 >> scale. Yeah. So you guys I you had a 1:13:46 question regards on a creative. Do you 1:13:47 run AI ad creative at all? 1:13:50 >> Uh yeah dec like a decent amount of it. 1:13:52 It's probably it depends on the account. 1:13:55 Like I'd say 80% of our accounts says 1:13:58 none and then 5 to 10% of the accounts 1:14:01 it's like 40% of content. Um 1:14:05 so it's very specific on the brand. 1:14:07 >> Interesting. Okay. Yeah. We've seen it 1:14:09 work. I mean, um, even where it's like 1:14:12 kind of borderline, you can tell it's AI 1:14:14 for sure based off of like they 1:14:16 pronounce a word in a weird way or 1:14:18 something. But what we have found is 1:14:21 clients may say they're okay with it and 1:14:23 then they like see an AI ad and they're 1:14:26 like, "Wait a second. I don't know." 1:14:28 It's it's weird when you see your 1:14:31 product not maybe like the slightest 1:14:33 detail might be off in regards to the 1:14:35 product itself. 1:14:37 um or you're watching this AI avatar 1:14:41 person. And so it's an interesting 1:14:44 world. We're doing we're doing obviously 1:14:47 statics, it's fine, right? Producing 1:14:49 statics that can look really good with 1:14:51 AI um especially if you're just testing 1:14:54 kind of like hooks uh and and and using 1:14:58 a lot of copy. But when it comes to 1:15:02 video especially, I it's it's, you know, 1:15:05 it's an interesting playground right now 1:15:07 in regards to like at least finding 1:15:09 clients who are fully okay with the AI 1:15:13 creative aspect of it. Some those that 1:15:16 are though I we know some that you would 1:15:18 have almost no idea unless you like 1:15:20 really were paying attention and they're 1:15:22 doing incredibly well um with the AI. Do 1:15:24 you guys run um with ecom? Are you 1:15:28 running 1:15:30 because if you're not doing creative 1:15:31 production for him, do you guys do 1:15:33 anything in regards to like pages as 1:15:36 well? Like do you run avitorial style 1:15:38 pages at all or anything like that? 1:15:40 >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um 1:15:41 >> yeah, 1:15:42 >> it's more of like it's more of a thing 1:15:45 in CPG. Um and we have quite a few CPG 1:15:48 brands that we do have uh landers and 1:15:51 funnels. Um 1:15:54 for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And they perform 1:15:55 really well, but it requires really good 1:15:57 copywriting. 1:15:59 >> Yeah. Okay. And then we'll 1:16:02 [clears throat] bang out the the 1:16:03 remainder of time here with just some 1:16:05 like general Q&A. 1:16:08 Direct to consumer versus reseller. 1:16:10 Different strategies there. Honestly, 1:16:13 like we we try to not work with 1:16:15 resellers at all because the gross 1:16:16 margin is so compressed that it becomes 1:16:18 very difficult to acquire customers uh 1:16:21 profitably on Meta and there's not much 1:16:24 loyalty to because people are loyal to 1:16:25 the the brand, not the seller. But if I 1:16:29 was going to run reseller, which we've 1:16:32 run a bunch in the past, the strategy is 1:16:34 very very different in that you're not 1:16:37 going top ofunnel content. you were just 1:16:40 DPAs, dynamic product ads, dynamic 1:16:43 carousels served to people who are 1:16:45 already in market, who are already worn, 1:16:47 and the brand that you're selling has 1:16:48 already done the heavy lifting. Like if 1:16:50 you're selling Nike shoes, there's no 1:16:51 need to educate on the Nike shoe. Just 1:16:54 show it to people and let them buy. With 1:16:57 that, we'll have limitations in scale, 1:16:59 but that is one of obviously the 1:17:00 downsides of being a reseller. 1:17:02 >> Yeah. Interesting. You recommend turning 1:17:05 off flex ads. It's funny because Alex 1:17:06 Becker mentions that he uses it. Why do 1:17:09 you recommend turning it off? 1:17:11 >> These days, I actually think you can run 1:17:12 them uh because you can do a breakdown 1:17:16 to see performance data at an asset 1:17:18 level. The main reason why we didn't 1:17:21 used to run them is because you wouldn't 1:17:23 know which ad's performing well. If the 1:17:25 ads performing, you're like, which is 1:17:27 it? I don't know. So, I can't iterate. 1:17:29 But now, you can do a breakdown feature 1:17:31 and actually see it. So, like I'm I'm 1:17:33 indifferent. We're doing a bit of 1:17:34 testing on it at the moment. 1:17:37 >> This is you have zero of these clients, 1:17:39 but um I'm sure you have friends or 1:17:42 family or someone you've got to consult 1:17:43 in regards to this local business. Think 1:17:46 of a painter, you know, a plumber, 1:17:48 whatever in a small little city. What do 1:17:51 you what do you see that works there for 1:17:53 them? 1:17:54 >> Like every everything that we've already 1:17:56 talked about applies. What would be 1:17:58 different is that you do need 1:18:01 more creative volume because you fatigue 1:18:04 the local audience very quickly. 1:18:06 >> Interesting. 1:18:08 >> And you probably want like I think the 1:18:11 biggest needle mover there is an offer 1:18:13 >> like what is what's the reason for 1:18:15 someone to come in and then the offer 1:18:17 also becomes very trackable too. So 1:18:19 rather than relying on like maybe you're 1:18:22 like capturing leads and stuff and 1:18:24 booking people, but if people are 1:18:25 actually going to walk into the store in 1:18:27 some capacity, if they have an offer to 1:18:29 walk in with, that also becomes a really 1:18:31 measurable way to know if the ads are 1:18:33 effective. 1:18:34 >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Last question. What's 1:18:37 the lowest amount you can spend on meta 1:18:40 ads and it still be effective? 1:18:42 >> Obviously, that will differ a little 1:18:44 bit, right? There's nuances to that, but 1:18:46 you know, I have heard I've seen people 1:18:48 literally like selling courses or 1:18:52 trainings and they're like, you can 1:18:53 spend as little as like $100 a month for 1:18:57 your business and still have meta ads 1:18:59 work for you. I'm just like, I'm not 1:19:00 really sure. Like Google Ads is a really 1:19:03 I like Google Ads in regards to this 1:19:04 because people will come to me and 1:19:06 they'll be like 1:19:08 straight up they'll be like I'm spending 1:19:09 $500 a month and what you know how can 1:19:13 you help me with and this is like in my 1:19:15 school group a lot of times I see this 1:19:17 and I'm like well your keywords cost $20 1:19:20 a click so your 500 is not going to do 1:19:24 much and here's the math you know bare 1:19:27 minimum you're going to want 10 clicks a 1:19:28 day that's like absolute bottom bare 1:19:30 bare minimum. And so do the math. Can 1:19:33 you can you spend that cuz that's what 1:19:36 that's you got to go invest in data 1:19:38 unfortunately. And I know people hate 1:19:40 hearing that because they think of like 1:19:42 it should just be advertising, right? 1:19:44 But it's like no, we're like training 1:19:45 with these weird algorithms that we 1:19:47 don't control. We just have to work with 1:19:49 them and this is what the data proves 1:19:51 that this is the amount of data you need 1:19:54 in order for it to be effective and 1:19:56 otherwise you're just pissing your money 1:19:58 away. So, can you afford to enter the 1:20:00 game or not? There's a price to play and 1:20:03 I'm telling you the math to go enter the 1:20:05 game. So, like personal injury lawyers 1:20:06 always love. They'll come and they'll be 1:20:08 like spending like 5k a month thinking 1:20:09 that's like big and I'm like n it's not. 1:20:12 You're not going to go anywhere with 5k 1:20:14 a month unfortunately. So, you're just 1:20:15 like kind of like giving that to Google 1:20:19 and moving nowhere in any direction 1:20:21 because you can't because you don't have 1:20:23 the data there. In meta ads though, I've 1:20:27 seen it work at small levels, but I 1:20:30 would assume it differs by industry. But 1:20:32 like is there if someone came to you, do 1:20:34 would you be like, "Look, man, you're 1:20:36 going to need at least like a thousand a 1:20:38 month before I would play with meta 1:20:40 ads." 1:20:41 >> Yeah, I would. Uh, so the main thing to 1:20:44 consider is whether it's like low ticket 1:20:47 or high ticket. Um, if it's low ticket, 1:20:49 you can spend less because you get 1:20:51 purchases and signal faster. And so if 1:20:54 it's like if you're an ecom brand, 1:20:55 average order value is $100, $80. Um, 1:20:59 realistically, a couple hundred a day 1:21:02 would be ideal. $100, $200 a day. So 1:21:05 we're talking like three grand a month. 1:21:07 >> Yeah, 1:21:07 >> you could you could actually see like 1:21:09 that's that's a fine starting point. You 1:21:11 could get learnings, you could test 1:21:12 creative, like that's fine. Um I was 1:21:15 saying to you before where you hopped on 1:21:16 like if you're an agency high ticket B2B 1:21:20 um your costs per client or your CAC is 1:21:23 going to be very very high. It's going 1:21:25 to be thousands of dollars. 1:21:27 >> Um 1:21:28 >> in which case like if I was an agency if 1:21:30 any agency has made it this far on a 1:21:32 meds uh video like I wouldn't I wouldn't 1:21:35 spend under 15k a month like I think 1:21:37 total waste of money. You'll never get 1:21:39 enough signal. You'll just be spinning 1:21:40 your wheels for four months. You'll say 1:21:41 it doesn't work and you'll give up. Um, 1:21:44 so like you need enough spend to be able 1:21:46 to validate, get signal, get traction 1:21:49 quickly and if you got a $3,000 CAC, you 1:21:53 need you need a lot of spend. 1:21:54 >> What's the true amount of volume of 1:21:57 conversions you need? And is it ad site 1:21:59 level or campaign level to get out of 1:22:01 this learning phase? 1:22:03 >> I don't I wouldn't be like I wouldn't be 1:22:05 too concerned about it to be honest. I 1:22:07 don't think you need a gun for a certain 1:22:08 like conversion volume. It's just like 1:22:10 over seven 14 days if you're profitable, 1:22:14 if you're at a good return, prank 1:22:16 budgets and keep going. 1:22:17 >> Yeah. 1:22:18 >> I think people get a bit too stuck up in 1:22:19 like learning phases. Uh on Google, 1:22:22 learning phases for sure, super real. 1:22:24 Like you need like launching a new PMAX 1:22:27 campaign, you have to give that thing 1:22:29 time without a doubt. On meta, nowhere 1:22:31 near as true. Like on meta, it's like 1:22:34 >> don't don't get too caught up in the 1:22:35 learning phase. You can pivot quick on 1:22:37 the platform. It's nothing like Google 1:22:38 in terms of speed. And so I think people 1:22:41 over prioritize the learning phase. 1:22:43 >> Yeah. Okay, Nathan. Man, I knew I was 1:22:46 going to I I told you I was going to 1:22:47 pick your brain. So, uh, and I had 1:22:49 question after question and, uh, we just 1:22:52 went an hour and a half. So, most people 1:22:54 probably aren't this far in the video, 1:22:56 [laughter] 1:22:57 but but my god, there's a lot of value 1:23:01 right here in this hour and a half. So, 1:23:04 I hope anyone who did make it this far, 1:23:07 I you know, you probably have a lot of 1:23:09 notes or just, you know, go go have uh 1:23:11 Claude, you know, summarize this and 1:23:14 give you a one-page uh road map on uh 1:23:18 how to go run meta ads because that was 1:23:20 an insane amount of value that uh Nathan 1:23:23 just provided. Is there anything else 1:23:26 you want to you of your little meta ads 1:23:29 wisdom uh you want to put out there that 1:23:31 we didn't touch on? No, I think we 1:23:34 covered a lot. Um, yeah, thanks for 1:23:36 having me. Hour and a half was a lot, 1:23:39 but uh, 1:23:39 >> it's a lot. 1:23:41 >> Make good ads and make more good ads. 1:23:44 >> That's it. That's all you really need, 1:23:45 folks. So, like you could have skipped 1:23:47 an hour and a half and just got to that 1:23:49 point of make make good ads, make a lot 1:23:52 of good ads, and then you'll be good. 1:23:54 So, um, all right, man. I will uh have 1:23:57 your so Blue Sense Digital if you want 1:23:59 to go uh you know contact his agency if 1:24:03 you want your I'll put Nathan's socials. 1:24:05 I know he's he's doing really well on 1:24:07 Instagram right now too. He puts out a 1:24:08 ton. This dude told me he's posting five 1:24:10 days a day or five uh posts a day on 1:24:12 there. So that's totally insane. So if 1:24:14 you want to go see his insanity on 1:24:16 Instagram as well. He's just dropping 1:24:18 wisdom bombs all day long on Instagram 1:24:21 too. So I'll have his uh his socials in 1:24:23 the description as well. Nathan, man, 1:24:25 always always a pleasure talking to you. 1:24:28 I think this video I hope this gets a 1:24:30 lot of uh engagement because there's so 1:24:33 I'm I'm literally gonna take this and 1:24:34 have my team go watch it. So, not 1:24:37 because I'm on it, but because of the 1:24:39 amount of value I think that's been 1:24:41 shared today. So, appreciate you being 1:24:43 back on and um yeah, man. We'll have to, 1:24:45 you know, do it again uh sometime in the 1:24:48 future and maybe dive a little further 1:24:49 on some of this. 1:24:50 >> For sure. Thanks for having me. 1:24:52 Appreciate it. All right, we'll see you, 1:24:53 man.