0:00 Increasing cold is where companies I 0:02 think are failing today because they've 0:04 been trained and brainwashed including 0:07 myself on rorowaz as this like almighty 0:11 metric and then they've been trained and 0:13 brainwashed on inapp metrics which more 0:15 and more today are becoming less 0:17 reliable. You could have a high 0:20 and a bad INCAC. 0:22 >> Yeah. and you could kill it on INCAC and 0:25 you drove way more new customers and my 0:28 goes down and the client flips and it's 0:30 like did you guys do anything on email 0:32 this month? No, we did not do okay well 0:34 that's where your drops coming from. 0:36 >> Our biggest barrier to scale is always 0:38 efficiency on you know cost to acquiring 0:40 a customer. And so that's sort of our 0:42 main goal is like we we care about cash 0:45 flow but we don't really have as much 0:47 control over cash flow as like we do to 0:49 like generate more new business. And so 0:51 that's why we focus heavily on, you 0:53 know, the metric of ENCAC. Let's figure 0:56 out the metrics that are going to impact 0:58 your bank account and then let's work 1:00 back from there. And so that's the the 1:03 number one thing that you should be 1:04 looking at is how much are you paying 1:05 for a new customer. Okay. I've got uh 1:08 Kaden who I've had the privilege of uh 1:11 talking to several times now who uh I 1:15 think I found out about you with John 1:17 John Moran stuff. John Moran. Yeah. all 1:20 the all the feeder strategy and all that 1:23 fun stuff that's been kind of going 1:24 around. So, 1:25 >> and yeah, you've uh you obviously guys 1:27 are into some like extra level wizard 1:30 stuff. So, I was always interested in 1:33 listening to you. Some of it I'm like, 1:35 I'm not going to test that and I'll see 1:37 what kind of failures they come up with 1:39 from my observations. And then other 1:41 stuff uh has been great. Um, so you guys 1:45 are definitely um, you know, some people 1:48 that I love like staying in tune with on 1:50 like what's going on just because you're 1:52 doing like some real crazy out of the 1:54 box stuff, but you think high level. You 1:56 guys are thinking like how a business 1:58 owner should look at it from like a P&L 2:00 standpoint. Um, and looking at more than 2:03 just inapp metrics and looking beyond 2:06 inapp and going into what really matters 2:09 is like this is all what you're doing 2:11 with advertising is customer new 2:12 customer acquisition, right? Obviously, 2:14 there's some repeat lap stuff in there 2:16 too, but the goal is to acquire new 2:18 customers and people forget about that 2:20 sometimes. I I don't know why. And so, 2:22 you know, the reality is some of the 2:24 most important metrics like in CAC just 2:27 don't even get discussed and you guys do 2:29 discuss a lot of that. So that's why um 2:31 I'm glad that uh you know I've been able 2:34 to interact with you guys you not 2:37 necessarily John but you on some stuff 2:39 especially like in the school 2:40 communities and things like that. Um but 2:44 Kaden is doing uh some cool stuff with 2:48 like feeder strategy. Um if you don't 2:51 know what feeder strategy is, you'll 2:53 you'll find out through this video. I 2:54 also have a YouTube video I did on the 2:56 feeder strategy on the channel, so you 2:58 can go check that out. Um, and then 3:00 also, uh, I just had a conversation with 3:02 Kayen not too long ago in regards to 3:04 what they're doing with some like 3:05 thirdparty tools and passing back only 3:07 firstclick attribution stuff. So, like 3:10 some real wizard stuff is going on in 3:12 Kaden's brain. And so, I was like, dude, 3:14 let's just talk about this on uh on the 3:16 YouTube channel and and this is not 3:18 planned. We don't have like some script 3:20 for this. I was like, just just hop on 3:22 and let's start talking. So, we'll see 3:23 what this could be one of the worst 3:24 videos to ever be released on YouTube or 3:27 there should be some valuable insights 3:29 hopefully for some of you guys. Uh, 3:31 because this is probably going to be 3:33 some nerdy conversations 3:35 with Google ads. So, Kaden, man, I 3:37 appreciate you being on. 3:39 >> Yeah, thanks for having me on. And, uh, 3:40 yeah, nerdy conversations for sure. So, 3:43 I think you summed it up in a really 3:45 good way though where at the end of the 3:46 day, every business wants more new 3:48 customers. At least I haven't met one 3:50 that doesn't, you know, and so what 3:52 tends to be sort of that disconnect that 3:54 happens in, you know, the ad platform is 3:56 you get a really good result, but then 3:58 you realize that it's a lot of repeat 4:00 traffic or not new customers. And so 4:02 then you're investing in your repeat 4:03 customers. And so that's typically the 4:05 bottleneck that happens in a lot of 4:07 accounts that we work with. And so we 4:08 were trying to think well why is it that 4:12 we're giving the algorithm all this 4:13 information but it's not really growing 4:16 the business and what's going on on the 4:18 back end. That's sort of you know how we 4:20 sort of move more into like the CMO I 4:22 guess you can say level of looking at 4:23 P&Ls where it's just like how is the 4:25 pipeline looking? What does the overall 4:28 revenue look like when we increase ad 4:30 spend? Why is that not growing as much 4:32 as we see in the platform? And it just 4:34 comes down to that, you know, simple 4:35 issue of, you know, warm traffic versus 4:37 cold traffic and then the complicated 4:39 issue of attribution. But I think to 4:42 kind of keep it simple, it's think of it 4:44 as you have someone that you know, let's 4:46 say on average you have a repeat 4:47 purchase cycle of like, you know, 4:49 someone comes back twice, right? They 4:50 buy one product and they come back 4:52 again. Your brand traffic typically will 4:55 be a lot of repeat customers coming back 4:56 to buy that second product, at least 4:58 when it gets attributed inside of 4:59 Google. But what tends to happen is that 5:02 people think that, oh, it's just the 5:04 brand campaign, but they don't realize 5:06 that that can seep into all the other 5:08 campaigns. So, you can have warm traffic 5:10 that goes into your what you think is 5:12 top of funnel, what you think is your 5:13 middle of funnel, and then you start to 5:15 optimize towards warm signals or warm 5:17 audiences, and then it bottlenecks the 5:20 overall growth of business because 5:21 you're not feeding that top of funnel. 5:23 Um, and so that was kind of, you know, 5:24 what we were thinking about. We're like, 5:26 well, how do we kind of get around this 5:28 problem? how do we push it more into 5:30 cold? And you know, John has been a huge 5:32 huge help in the space when it comes to 5:34 understanding, you know, how to find the 5:36 cold and warm audiences. And um it's one 5:39 of those things to where we've been 5:41 using a tactic um that's been pushing 5:43 more into controlling what data we feed 5:46 to Google. So think of it as instead of 5:49 feeding the feeding Google like your 5:51 standard this is a purchase, we say 5:54 first click new customer purchase. 5:57 That's what we feed into the algorithm 5:58 to then better push it in the direction 6:00 of new customers because you're only 6:02 rewarding it when it gets a first click 6:05 new customer. And the key point there, 6:07 which we could probably go on forever 6:08 about, is the first click aspect of it, 6:11 right? We don't want to go last click. 6:12 We want to go first click top of funnel 6:14 as much as possible and try to use that 6:17 to then grow the business. And we've 6:18 been getting really good results with 6:19 that um both on Meta and Google. So 6:22 that's been kind of fun to 6:23 >> So let me I'm gonna bring you back to 6:25 just just in case because there's going 6:27 to be many people who are watching this 6:28 like whole I have no idea that you know 6:32 Google inapp stuff I shouldn't be 6:34 relying on as much uh or they might not 6:36 know this is an issue. So based off of 6:39 like what you have found is Google, 6:44 especially today with uh their AI and 6:47 like smart bidding is prone to really 6:50 try to rabbit hole on warm traffic. Now 6:54 when you say warm traffic, is it always 6:57 repeat buyers? Yes, that's a really good 7:00 point. It's not always repeat buyers. So 7:02 it could be just bottom of funnel or 7:04 middle of funnel, right? So if you view 7:07 like a full funnel like you have your 7:08 top of funnel, middle and bottom of 7:10 funnel, you could have your top of 7:11 funnel being from another source or 7:13 another campaign and then your middle of 7:15 funnel looks the best. Your bottom of 7:16 funnel looks the best. It's still new 7:18 customers, but it's not the first 7:20 interaction that they're scaling. So 7:22 it's warmed up traffic per se, but it's 7:24 still new. So if you scale the middle of 7:26 funnel too much, it's going to not be as 7:28 efficient as if you scale the top of 7:30 funnel to feed the rest of the funnel. 7:32 That's kind of the general um idea 7:34 around it, though. But yes, it could be 7:36 for for new customers technically, just 7:38 different parts of the funnel. 7:40 >> And that's why when you when you look at 7:42 if you like use any sort of third-party 7:45 attribution tool uh such as a wicked 7:48 reports, you you know you're going to 7:49 look at it will tell you percent of new 7:52 visits and it's actually way lower than 7:55 what you anticipate. You would be like 7:56 how is this like non-branded search 7:59 campaign 50% you know not only 50% is 8:03 new and 50% is return and it's not and 8:07 that's it's because like Google knows 8:10 hey this person's been on the website 8:12 they've looked at three pages they spent 8:14 5 minutes and then they know if they're 8:17 searching again for some of the and 8:19 that's why I mean again as we evolve 8:21 into the future of intentbased more 8:24 intentbased targeting versus just 8:26 keyword specific. Um, and I actually I 8:29 have a video coming out on like how 8:31 Google ad how to run Google ads in 2025. 8:33 I talk about that evolution where it's 8:35 no longer uh specific words exact 8:39 matches. It's more the meaning right 8:41 behind it all. Especially as we get into 8:42 like AI mode and things like that. But 8:44 Google knows then like they're searching 8:46 again and it's yes it is a non-brand 8:49 term but they've actually been to you 8:51 before. whether that was through 8:52 organic, whether that was through word 8:54 of mouth, whether that was through a 8:56 Facebook ad, they been on your site and 8:59 and so it is prone at times to like just 9:02 try to wait for some of that warmer 9:04 traffic cuz they know based off of the 9:06 patterns that hey x amount come back 9:09 during this time frame and so we know 9:12 these searches will be taking place. Um, 9:14 so it does this pattern recognition, I 9:16 think, in order to pick up or scoop up 9:19 some of that warmed up traffic, but 9:22 obviously it's still generating a lot of 9:25 cold traffic at the same time. But I 9:28 feel like most people truly think when 9:30 they look at the the uh campaigns that 9:34 all of that is like, oh, these people 9:36 have never been to us before. when the 9:38 reality is actually I I and I'm saying 9:40 half I actually don't know what this a 9:43 proper number would be but I've just 9:45 seen in a lot of third party tools about 9:47 50% it seems like is it's hitting some 9:50 warm traffic and so but the reality is 9:52 like hey cool you got a thousand clicks 9:54 from that campaign but just know like 9:56 you know half of that they've already 9:58 interacted with you in some form now me 10:01 as a business owner I actually really 10:02 don't care right like if if they were 10:05 searching a non-brand term even though 10:08 they've been on my site before, right? 10:10 That means I didn't sell them yet. So, 10:12 I'm happy to get back in front of them. 10:14 I'm fine for the machine learning to be 10:16 doing that. I want their purchase. They 10:18 they haven't purchased. It gets finicky 10:21 or weird when you're in a repeat 10:23 purchase model. So, supplements or 10:26 something like that. And then Google 10:28 really starts rabbit holeing basically 10:30 repeat buyers quite often. Now, 10:33 sometimes the same argu argument could 10:35 be applied though, right? If they were 10:38 searching a non-brand term, even though 10:40 they're a repeat customer, were they 10:42 were they just did they forget my brand 10:44 or were they truly looking for another 10:46 company and somehow I popped back up 10:49 with an ad and then they came back and 10:51 purchased from me. So, I think, hey, an 10:53 ad played a role in saving a customer or 10:57 at least getting them come back based 10:59 off of the customer journey they just 11:00 took there. Um, so I don't Is that is 11:03 that kind of what you guys are seeing in 11:05 some of the findings? I know you've done 11:06 way more testing than anything I've done 11:08 in regards to this. 11:10 >> Yeah. So it exactly cover the point of 11:13 like the algorithm itself will go after 11:15 the easiest person to convert like as 11:19 much as possible. You have to fight it 11:20 to try to push it away from the easiest 11:22 person to convert. That tends to be 11:24 middle of funnel, bottom of funnel. So 11:26 an example was like for examp like a 11:28 supplement brand that I was working 11:29 with. they were selling protein powder. 11:32 The shopping campaign was getting cold 11:34 terms that were saying protein powder, 11:36 but they were actually repeat customers 11:37 that were coming back and typing in 11:39 protein powder and then converting 11:40 again. And so what tends to happen is 11:43 that even if you have all the cold 11:46 signals ever, and let's say you're only 11:48 pushing towards new customers in the 11:50 settings, whatever the case is, it 11:52 doesn't know enough about new versus 11:54 repeat customers. So it will tell you 11:56 after the fact that it already got the 11:58 conversion, oh, it's a repeat customer. 12:00 And so the philosophy that I have with 12:02 going and trying to scaling businesses 12:03 is let's go as cold as possible because 12:06 we know that it's going to have a 12:07 percentage of warm regardless and that's 12:09 going to just be the byproduct of the 12:11 algorithm not being able to match a per 12:13 a person perfectly. Um and so when we 12:16 push in that direction it our biggest 12:18 barrier to scale is always efficiency on 12:21 you know cost to acquire a new customer. 12:23 And so that's sort of our main goal is 12:25 like we we care about cash flow, but we 12:28 don't really have as much control over 12:29 cash flow as like we do to like generate 12:32 more new business because cash flow, it 12:34 could be a sale, it could be an email, 12:36 there's so many other things that kind 12:37 of come into play that will affect your 12:39 overall efficiency from a profitability 12:41 standpoint. And so that's why we focus 12:43 heavily on, you know, the metric of ENAC 12:46 to then say, okay, when we scale at this 12:49 efficiency, is it too cold? Is it too 12:52 warm? and we kind of find the sweet spot 12:53 and that's how we can kind of build the 12:55 rest of like the middle funnel like 12:57 you're talking about where you know if 12:59 we have people that are typing in cool 13:01 terms but they haven't converted yet 13:03 then that will will cycle in and scoop 13:05 up those people. So we like to sort of 13:07 organize audiences instead of or 13:10 organizing it via like the settings 13:12 inside of like audience manager and 13:13 trying to figure that out. It's more 13:14 about the actual end result action, 13:17 right? So, we might have a top of funnel 13:20 that's geared more towards first click, 13:22 like I was saying, new customers, and 13:24 then a middle of funnel that might just 13:26 be geared towards new customers and not 13:27 just first click. And we kind of use 13:29 that to sort of build out the funnel now 13:31 versus like layering on a bunch of 13:33 audiences. 13:34 >> So, what do you mean by top ofunnel 13:37 first click? 13:39 >> Yeah. So, 13:40 we use third party attribution software. 13:43 um not to I guess attribution software 13:45 is not the best. I would say more so 13:47 like server side tracking is a better 13:49 way to say it. So think of it as 13:52 for those that don't know it's 13:53 essentially a way to capture more data 13:55 and have more control over the 13:57 conversion action that's fed into your 13:59 account is sort of the way that I would 14:01 like to think about it. And so first 14:02 click is one of those filters that you 14:05 can apply to the conversion action or 14:08 the event in your Facebook or Google ad 14:10 account. And so first click is 14:13 essentially filtering to say, okay, 14:16 we're only going to import in a 14:17 conversion that was the first click that 14:20 this person had as well as if they're 14:22 new customer. Those are the two filters, 14:24 right? So it's the first interaction 14:26 that the algorithm can see or the server 14:28 side tracking can see that's attributed 14:30 to that campaign. So it's trying to 14:33 optimize towards the first click on the 14:35 top of funnel versus like the second 14:36 click on like the middle of funnel and 14:38 the third click let's say on the bottom 14:39 of funnel cuz so Google does a terrible 14:42 job. I know they give you some of these 14:44 metrics and you can go in and um you 14:47 know have your developer tag specialist 14:50 implement some stuff to give it more of 14:52 like new and return customer data. Um, 14:55 and obviously if you give it like 14:57 customer match, it's going to know if 14:58 it's a previous customer, if it's 15:00 matched in with that customer match 15:02 list. But Google does a really bad job 15:05 with knowing who's new versus returning. 15:07 Um, you can see it in the data. Even 15:09 people who are like, I am only targeting 15:11 new visitor or or new customers only in 15:13 my PMAC settings. And I'm like, 15:16 it doesn't really know. 15:18 >> Yeah. 15:18 >> It's not like Google just does it 15:20 doesn't do a great job. And and so what 15:24 you're doing is using tools. Are you 15:27 allowed to mention these tools? Uh in 15:31 >> like blot out is one of the tools that 15:32 we use for it. Um and it's one of those 15:35 things to where we use all these tools 15:37 to help push it in that direction, 15:39 >> but we've used other tools to figure out 15:41 why this was the problem in the first 15:42 place. And so there's like tactics that 15:44 still you can use 15:46 >> that don't require the tool that will 15:47 allow things to get more, you know, cold 15:50 traffic per se and be able to grow the 15:51 business. 15:52 >> So you use blot out and then blot out 15:55 allowing you to on the back end only 15:59 send first time cold. This person's 16:03 absolutely 16:05 >> perspective. Yeah. from a first-click 16:07 perspective, this is the first time 16:09 they've ever been to your website from 16:10 all the data that it has and that Google 16:13 like again Google if you click an ad and 16:16 then like you you know come back maybe 16:18 30 days later you could have cleared 16:20 your cookies you could be on a 16:21 differenti like there's a lot of 16:23 breaking points there right even though 16:25 I I think Google probably still does a 16:27 pretty good job of tracking some people 16:29 but with with something like a blot out 16:31 it's able to 16:34 understand whether you've actually been 16:36 to that website or not because they're 16:38 buying from other data sources. Uh so 16:41 there's there's even and I'm not going 16:43 to go too crazy there because I'll 16:44 probably butcher it. Um cuz even I've 16:47 I've had ask Kaden about it and then 16:49 like all these companies blot out if 16:51 you're listening you guys all if I go to 16:54 your I'm in the industry. Okay. I talked 16:57 to guys like Kaden who and I get 17:00 everyone like once you're into this 17:01 stuff it's like very you're almost in 17:03 developer land but then like the way 17:06 companies explain it is so like they use 17:10 marketing marketing language and nerd 17:12 talk and it's like how I literally went 17:14 had to go I've like deciphered it by 17:16 using chat GPT to break it down into 17:19 like get one sentence how would you 17:21 explain this or give me the elevator 17:22 pitch of what this company actually does 17:24 and then oh okay that makes sense now. 17:26 But it's like, stop using all these 17:28 crazy terms like edge tag and like what 17:30 does that mean? I I don't even know what 17:32 you do yet. I don't care what edge tag 17:34 is. Okay, I'm not buying a car. I'm I'm 17:37 trying to figure out what the heck you 17:38 actually do. But you're using blotout to 17:42 then send only people who convert who 17:45 were firstclick visitors. Correct. And 17:48 that wipes out all of the uh warm or 17:52 lapsed or uh repeat customers from that. 17:57 And now Google's AI only has that to 18:01 learn from in regards to the data that 18:03 you're pushing and feeding back to it. 18:05 >> Exactly. Yeah. So, um I don't know if I 18:07 could share my screen. Is that possible? 18:09 >> Yeah. Yeah, you can. 18:10 >> Let me see if I can do that real quick. 18:13 So, this was kind of an example of the 18:17 difference we found for an account um 18:19 one of John's accounts that just 18:21 completely blew it out of the water for 18:24 me. 18:24 >> I still don't believe these numbers. I 18:26 feel like John photoshopped this, but uh 18:29 >> he's a trustworthy guy. So, 18:31 >> I think it's his largest account. Um I'm 18:34 pretty sure. But yeah, we we talk about 18:36 this stuff all the time and like show 18:38 proof and evidence of it, too. But this 18:39 is essentially the the comparison of you 18:43 know original all the original 18:45 conversion actions like Google shopping 18:46 app purchase if you have a Shopify store 18:48 and you automatically connect it and 18:50 then the comparison to for example the 18:52 blot out server side tracking it's like 18:54 10x what the total 18:56 >> but this is beyond is this and is this 18:59 only new customer data that's being 19:00 pushed back too. 19:02 >> So it's both. So we have three different 19:04 actions. So there's like for example 19:06 blot out serverside new customers and 19:08 then blot out server side and then this 19:10 is blot out I think server return 19:12 customer um inside here. So, we don't 19:14 have the first click in this one because 19:15 it's an older screenshot, but 19:17 >> well, there's 12,000 conversions 19:19 basically total 19:21 >> uh on the server 6,000 on this. 19:24 >> Oh, oh, server is everything. Sorry. 19:26 Server is both. Okay. So, and that's 19:28 obviously 10x from then what a Google 19:32 the Google purchase app was at at 654. 19:35 >> Yeah. Which is like your standard 19:37 integration with Shopify. 19:38 >> H and it it all right. But okay, so 19:41 listen, this is an super extreme 19:43 example. I still don't I still don't 19:45 believe it. Uh 19:47 >> what's the average? 19:48 >> I would say about 30 to 40%. 19:51 >> Really that high? 19:52 >> It really depends on your business 19:53 model. So this is a um company that's 19:56 been around for a while and this is you 19:58 know company that gets a lot of repeat 20:00 purchasers and people that are outside 20:02 of Google's window per se because 20:03 they've been around for years. 20:05 >> And so the server side tracking goes 20:07 back as far as I've seen up to like 5 20:09 years. So this opens up the attribution 20:11 window like tremendously. Um, so that's 20:14 also why these numbers are a little bit 20:15 wider, but I typically see about a 30 to 20:18 40% shift. Um, unless it's like your 20:20 your buying window. So like if I click 20:24 on an ad and then I convert a day later, 20:27 that's a very short buying window. 20:29 >> If I click on an ad and I buy in like 10 20:31 days, 20 days, 30 days, that's a longer 20:33 buying window. And so typically on like 20:36 shorter buying windows, the difference 20:38 is a lot less. Whereas on longer buying 20:40 windows, it becomes way way more 20:42 impactful um on that side of things as 20:45 well as if you have a lot of repeat 20:46 customers or a lot of warm traffic 20:48 versus not. And again, the reason the 20:52 Google Shopping app purchase is not able 20:55 to get all that attribution is due to 20:58 the fact that it loses the attribution 21:01 during most customer journeys or at 21:02 least 30% of them. 21:05 >> Yeah. Typically. And by the way too, 21:08 these these are imports. So we know that 21:10 these are all like legitimate. They've 21:12 touched Google ads because they have a a 21:14 Google tag attached to the conversion 21:17 action. That's a that's why it's able to 21:18 show in here. 21:20 >> Interesting. Oh yeah. So and again the 21:23 the reason this is all so important is 21:27 uh like if if you're just starting out 21:30 like you'll hear me say I just use the 21:31 Google ad like just get going, right? 21:34 like not this super nerd stuff that 21:36 Kaden's going into is for companies who 21:39 are like plateauing and this is the 21:40 plateau is the a tough spot for a lot of 21:43 businesses and it can happen at various 21:47 stages but and it's hard as a media 21:50 buyer today too working within Google 21:52 ads specifically I don't really roll in 21:54 the meta world too much so um I won't 21:57 speak there but within Google it's tough 22:00 when you do hit these plateaus cuz it's 22:02 like all right We're we're like bidding 22:05 on everything possible. We've got like 22:07 all of the shopping ads if you're 22:08 e-commerce, you know, like we've got 22:10 our, you know, really good exposure on 22:12 what's selling the best for us and, you 22:14 know, we've got all these good campaign 22:16 structures built out. But anytime we try 22:18 to spend more, we just lose efficiency, 22:20 right? And there's many reasons for 22:23 that, uh, which I I've break down in 22:25 some some of my other trainings on this 22:27 YouTube channel. So, it's not a one 22:29 thing. It's not just, oh, this is the 22:32 why it that's happening. That's it's a 22:34 lot of different variables that are 22:36 involved when you get diminishing 22:38 returns. I mean, you're going to get 22:39 diminishing returns in a lot of things 22:41 when you're trying to reach to uh really 22:45 high uh impressions of of the auctions 22:49 that you're in. So there's some of that 22:51 that's involved, but part of it is also 22:54 at least like from what Kaden is is 22:58 talking about and this is what I always 22:59 find interesting is like sometimes 23:01 within standard inapp metrics and within 23:05 standard inapp setups, just using the 23:07 native Google ads tag for example, it's 23:10 really hard to just reach a cold 23:12 audience and cuz Google wants to try to 23:16 like rabbit hole, especially if you're 23:19 using smart bidding of some sort like T 23:21 Rozas, TCPA, it does want to just kind 23:24 of like rabbit hole itself into warmed 23:27 up audiences and it doesn't want to 23:29 reach cold cuz cold can't necessarily it 23:32 doesn't know how it doesn't have data on 23:34 it. So, it doesn't know how to convert 23:36 from it and the engine is built to give 23:39 you the winning number that you set 23:41 inside the campaign setting to make you 23:43 feel, wow, this is working. Thanks, 23:45 Google. And give Google more money. And 23:48 so scaling companies today back years 23:52 ago with Google is great. Like you you 23:54 had a lot more control and these manual 23:57 setups and everything else. I actually 23:59 believed a lot of the metrics too. I 24:01 mean we would run I I gave an example 24:03 when we were talking Kaden where I 24:05 launched a brand new company 24:08 um a brand new brand. This wasn't my 24:11 business. This was a client. We spun off 24:13 another brand. There was no 24:16 other traffic other than Google ads when 24:18 we launched it. Uh we didn't no our 24:21 current customers had no idea about it 24:22 because we went with this like cheaper 24:24 offer to test it, right? So the only 24:27 traffic coming to it was Google ads and 24:30 Google ads tag and we had a great setup 24:34 um always under reportported by 20% of 24:36 the actual revenue we were generating. 24:38 So I you know as we know meta likes to 24:41 kind of overinflate an app and Google in 24:43 my opinion back at least then was under 24:46 reporting in most cases because it's 24:48 losing some of that attribution which it 24:50 you know sounds like things like blot 24:52 out really help with. Yeah 24:53 >> but blot out hopefully maybe will send 24:56 us a affiliate check after this video. 24:59 So uh but for mentioning their name so 25:02 many times but 25:05 the going cold is tough then right 25:08 because a lot of people freak out when 25:10 there is no attribution back to that 25:12 cold and this is where you have to 25:14 really go into 25:16 looking at backend metrics which I talk 25:18 about a lot. It's like get out of the 25:21 stupid Google Ads interface and look at 25:25 what's actually coming into your 25:26 business on the back end, right? And 25:28 then how many new customers did you 25:30 actually acquire? Did it go up or down? 25:33 Because it's like, oh, we had a great 25:34 month. And it's like, yeah, but you 25:35 didn't actually grow new customers. So, 25:36 you had a great lapsed customer repeat 25:39 buy come back, but you didn't you're not 25:42 going to grow. You can't grow that way, 25:44 right? uh or you can maybe for a little 25:46 while until you burn out you know your 25:49 current customer base. So um you have to 25:52 look at these numbers and INCAC is like 25:54 looking at just new customer 25:56 acquisition. It's like your CPA but just 25:58 for new customer acquisition across 26:00 everything kind of the over holistic 26:02 metric right but my has it my can be 26:06 great 26:07 >> but my doesn't tell the full story of 26:09 new customer acquisition myrrh is just 26:11 like an efficiency ratio 26:14 >> across yeah everything yeah 26:16 >> right but you could have high you could 26:18 have a high myrr 26:20 >> and a bad INCAC because yeah right 26:23 because your repeat came back and you 26:25 could kill it on INAC and you drove way 26:29 more new customers and MR goes down and 26:31 the client flips and it's like did you 26:33 guys do anything on email this month? 26:35 No, we did not do okay. Well, that's 26:37 where your drop's coming from. So, it's 26:39 you have to look at all of these numbers 26:42 and they they all tell a story. But when 26:44 you're buying media on Google Ads or 26:47 Meta, yes, you're going to have some 26:49 warm stuff there. And I think it's great 26:51 to that middle of the funnel stuff. I'm 26:53 happy that I can get back in front of 26:55 someone who did not purchase from me, 26:56 but they've been on my website before. 26:58 I'm happy. I'm happy for that. Okay? 27:00 Because I want them to come buy from me. 27:02 And so, yes, that's considered 27:04 remarketing a little bit. Who cares? I 27:07 got their purchase at the end of the 27:08 day. So, they gave me their money. I'm a 27:10 happy guy as long as the math works out. 27:12 But but when it goes into that that 27:16 increasing cold is where companies I 27:18 think are failing today because they've 27:21 been trained and brainwashed including 27:23 myself on rorowaz as this like almighty 27:27 metric and then they've been trained and 27:29 brainwashed on inapp metrics which more 27:31 and more today are becoming less 27:33 reliable and you really have to step 27:36 back outside of that interface and be 27:38 looking at true business metrics and 27:41 true business insights to to really help 27:44 pave the way for your um advertising 27:48 strategies and so 27:52 few things. 27:53 What's working for you right now on the 27:56 cold side? So um you talk about feeder 27:59 strategy and I'll give a quick 28:00 definition of feeder strategy for anyone 28:02 who's like what the heck is feeder 28:03 strategy? They keep saying it. Feeder 28:05 strategy is like I'll use a very easy 28:08 example. You have a shopping campaign. 28:10 Okay. Or sorry, let's say we'll use 28:12 performance max. You have a performance 28:14 max campaign. You've kind of plateaued 28:16 it. What you do, you launch a you launch 28:18 a shopping campaign. You bid more 28:21 aggressively on that and and to a stupid 28:25 level sometimes, 28:26 >> like a 40% troz. Yeah. I don't I haven't 28:30 gone that crazy, so I'm a little more 28:32 conservative, but I know John and Kaden 28:34 go nuts on some of that, but you're just 28:37 like you're buying all the traffic 28:39 basically that Google wouldn't show your 28:41 ads for previously cuz it doesn't think 28:43 these people would convert even though 28:46 they might and cuz it's it's ignoring 28:48 them, right? And so you're going 28:49 aggressive then on this acquisition of 28:53 traffic for good stuff. It's still good 28:56 stuff. And then that feeds 28:59 more data because you're getting more 29:00 visitors to the site and that actually 29:01 ends up feeding back to the performance 29:04 max campaign because PMAX is prone to 29:06 obviously remarket um through all the 29:09 other channels. It's a backfill of a 29:11 bunch of those other channels including 29:12 you're going to have some shopping 29:13 exposure on there still uh as well. Is 29:15 that is that an okay definition real 29:17 quick on feeder strategy? Yeah, I mean 29:19 pretty much you have a more restricted 29:21 bid strategy with like a super less 29:23 restricted bid strategy and the less 29:24 helps feed the one that's already kind 29:26 of maxed out which is typically 29:28 conversion based or the feeder might 29:30 find an entirely different audience. Um 29:33 and then it becomes two different 29:34 audience pools but that's typically the 29:36 general is that it feeds the other 29:38 campaign. Um 29:39 >> okay and then what so feeder strategy is 29:41 one thing that you guys have been doing 29:43 uh ma mainly on shopping. I mean, I know 29:45 you've done some stuff on search 29:47 >> really well in search, too. 29:48 >> I'll have some questions there, too. But 29:50 like, anything else like what what other 29:52 nerd stuff do you guys have going on for 29:55 acquiring what you would call true cold 29:57 audiences? 29:59 >> Yeah. So, I think an important point too 30:00 on the um firstclick import on the uh 30:03 conversion action side of things is you 30:06 can have one conversionbased campaign 30:08 that's let's say like a shopping 30:10 campaign that earns like 20 clicks but 30:13 the first click still happen on that 30:15 campaign so it's going to get credit, 30:16 right? So, there could be and that 30:18 that's kind of you know nerdy talk again 30:19 but there could be miniature funnels 30:22 that are scattered across your accounts 30:24 on different campaigns that don't 30:26 necessarily overlap as much with other 30:27 campaigns. So you might find when you're 30:30 importing in just the first click, the 30:32 first click can happen on that shopping 30:34 or search campaign and then that search 30:36 campaign can bring them back again and 30:38 again and it'll still take the 30:39 attribution of okay, I was the cause of 30:41 this and I was the middle and I was the 30:44 bottom of funnel. So that can still 30:46 happen inside of that one campaign. But 30:49 typically we see it go from that 30:50 campaign maybe cycle like two or three 30:52 clicks and then it goes into another 30:54 campaign. But yeah, that's typically the 30:56 the use case that that we see it work 30:58 in. So it's a lot of miniature funnels, 31:00 all that all that fun confusing stuff 31:02 >> with attribution. 31:04 >> And so is feeder strategy like 31:06 predominantly right now, at least on 31:07 Google ads, like your guys's go-to play 31:10 for uh trying to capture more true cold 31:14 traffic. 31:14 >> Yeah. So the so the feeder strategy came 31:17 actually outside of sort of a an issue 31:20 that we kept running into um and and 31:22 John came up with it. We've kind of 31:24 perfected it in the sense that we only 31:26 use it on accounts that have sort of hit 31:28 that wall of saying, "Okay, you've used 31:31 conversionbased bidding. You now are 31:33 trying to scale conversion based 31:34 bidding. Your CPCs are skyrocketing and 31:37 you're not seeing that actual number of, 31:40 you know, cost per acquisition get 31:41 better." And so the reason that we found 31:43 because of that was that it's sort of 31:45 trapping itself inside of an audience of 31:47 conversionbased, you know, people. And 31:51 so with a feeder strategy, this is with 31:53 or without the blot out tool. Just want 31:55 to clarify that. This was like without 31:57 it essentially. We were like, okay, can 31:59 we grow this audience? Can we feed this 32:03 audience somewhere else? And typically 32:05 it's like, well, we can use YouTube. We 32:06 can use more top offunnel, but YouTube 32:08 attribution is horrible. And we're like, 32:11 well, there's so many other people that 32:12 are searching these terms and we're not 32:14 able to, you know, buy them at a 32:17 profitable amount. So, let's just see if 32:19 we can run like a manual campaign or a 32:21 max clicks campaign and see if we can 32:23 show up for those terms that we know are 32:25 converting really well and see if that 32:27 can get us past that plateau of like we 32:29 can't scale past this amount. We're 32:31 stuck here. And so then from that point 32:34 that was like well okay we can just 32:36 we'll name it the feeder strategy 32:37 because when we turned it on the plateau 32:40 then increased and we said okay we can 32:41 now we're seeing new audiences come in. 32:43 it's getting more consistent in terms of 32:45 conversions. In app numbers are looking 32:47 better. We look to the back end. More 32:49 new customers are coming in and so we're 32:50 like, okay, there's, you know, a 32:52 correlation here. Um, and so that's sort 32:54 of the step one process of you need to 32:57 make sure you're maxed out on conversion 32:59 based bidding and then you roll into the 33:01 feeder strategy because that opens it up 33:03 more. 33:03 >> Okay. So, few things from my test. Uh, 33:07 one, I I I've had some success with it, 33:09 right? And I did a YouTube video on an 33:12 e-commerce case study where it did blow 33:14 up. Now, there's been a few weird cases 33:16 on some of ours where and I'm I'm just 33:19 asking if you've had this happen. In the 33:21 beginning, feeder strategy worked really 33:23 well. The both of these that 33:26 um didn't do as well are e-commerce 33:30 companies. 33:31 Um, so the ones that have I wouldn't 33:35 call them failures that it's just 33:37 finicky to like figure out now, 33:41 one of them that I did the video on 33:44 killed it, still killing it. A couple 33:46 others that we've tested it on killed it 33:49 out of the gate, died off, and they're 33:51 like, how did this die off? And now it's 33:54 like trying to figure out, well, what 33:56 what what's happening here cuz we're 33:58 running the same playbook. And it seemed 34:01 to be like just rorowaz tanked and yes 34:05 we're still using a rorowaz in the 34:06 account metrics but obviously will we 34:08 have backend access to their sales new 34:11 it like sales even took a dip and it's 34:13 like what blew up in this thing. So the 34:16 when you've seen this go sideways or not 34:20 work or works at first but then dies 34:22 off. What are you guys seeing? 34:25 >> Yeah. So, in terms of the feeder, it 34:27 typically with I've so I've never seen 34:29 it drop off like just everything just 34:32 drops off. I've only seen it plateau 34:34 again but at like a different range. So, 34:35 I'd be curious to see like yeah what's 34:37 going on there if we can talk maybe 34:38 after and discuss that cuz I'm really 34:40 curious about that. But typically what 34:42 we see is either so there's sort of two 34:45 scenarios mainly when you implement the 34:47 feeder CPCs on the manual or max clicks 34:51 campaign can be way higher than that of 34:54 the conversionbased campaign. And then 34:57 if for example you're running max clicks 34:59 it'll be really high and then it'll 35:00 start to drop lower and lower and lower 35:02 and lower until it finds that healthy 35:03 medium. And you kind of have to watch it 35:05 to see if that quality of click is good 35:07 or bad and then decide if you want to 35:08 roll it over. 35:09 >> Why does it start high and decrease? But 35:11 people ask that all the time. 35:12 >> Yeah. So typically if you run max 35:14 clicks, it's going to try to find the 35:16 clicks first and then optimize to get 35:18 more clicks, right? So when it finds the 35:20 clicks, it's going super aggressive. I 35:21 just need to get volume on this. When I 35:24 get the volume now, I can sift through 35:25 and say, okay, what's a cheaper click 35:27 that will be sort of, you know, the same 35:29 level of like interaction, per se. 35:31 >> And that's usually about a week to two 35:34 training period 35:35 >> depending on the um the account, the 35:38 buying cycle. Yeah, typically. and how 35:40 old 35:40 >> learning phase. I should have used that 35:42 term learning phase. Okay. 35:43 >> But yeah, and so when that sort of 35:46 because that's why we switch back and 35:48 forth between max clicks and manual. It 35:49 just kind of depends on what the account 35:51 looks like. It typically is an issue of 35:53 CPCs get high after we scale it, client 35:56 freaks out and then we we have to revert 35:58 it back. But if we get past that period 36:00 and we say, "Okay, clicks are fine, 36:02 backend numbers are good." We get into 36:04 that level of, "Okay, we can scale this 36:06 and we just push it further, we might 36:08 see like different audiences in each 36:10 campaign." And so then we have to kind 36:12 of teeter totter it to figure out what 36:13 the ratio is. And that will fluctuate 36:15 constantly cuz demand on search is going 36:17 to be all over the place. And so we 36:20 typically get to the point where we 36:21 scale it up, we max out on the demand 36:23 capture side of it, and then we just we 36:25 we plateau again. And then that's gets 36:27 into the whole idea of like now we need 36:29 to go into like YouTube or Facebook or 36:31 you know something else to sort of push 36:32 it further beyond um its current scale. 36:35 Pushing further top of funnel audiences 36:38 basically. Right. 36:39 >> Right. Correct. 36:40 >> Yeah. How so the structures that we've 36:42 been testing so far are a lot of um like 36:46 the feeder predominantly all products 36:48 like we're just blasting in most of 36:50 those cases. We're just giving it 36:52 everything. just go let it rip load 36:54 troaz and then you know seeing what 36:58 happens from there. How far have you 37:00 taken it? Like have you split off 37:02 certain categories or brands and now 37:04 you're running like feeder strategies at 37:07 specific levels? 37:09 >> Yeah, this is a very this is going to 37:11 open up Pandora's box. So there's 37:13 there's so many variants to it when it 37:16 comes to that. The general framework is 37:19 that 37:20 you find the product that you're the 37:22 most profitable on that's sort of the 37:24 hero product that's the winner and you 37:27 have that be sort of like the beginning 37:28 of the feeder strategy, right? You put 37:30 that on like the aggressive bidding for 37:33 that new awesome product. It's already 37:34 tested the market. It's great. You see 37:36 how far you can push that and then you 37:38 have your performance max campaign or 37:40 you know another campaign that's just a 37:42 lot or a lot higher of a bid cap on 37:44 that. Right? So you have one that's like 37:46 a 40% troz. One that's like 100% t- roz 37:49 kind of thing just to kind of you know 37:51 get the idea out there. Um you can run 37:53 performance max or standard shopping. 37:55 That's just a variant. Typically we 37:57 would do performance max with standard 37:58 shopping. And then what happens is the 38:01 good product we push it as far as we can 38:03 and then we hit a plateau and then we 38:05 diversify and say okay let's add in more 38:07 products and then it sort of expands out 38:09 again. So it depends on your business on 38:12 like how many products you have but it's 38:14 typically a question of it starts you 38:17 know specific goes broad and then it 38:20 starts to get more specific and then we 38:22 hit a plateau again it goes broad. So 38:24 it's kind of like if you want if you're 38:26 optimizing towards getting more results 38:28 you you diversify it out more. If you 38:31 hit a wall you then combine the backend 38:33 together. So, it's a it's a constant in 38:36 and out from we've seen over like months 38:38 and or years in some accounts 38:41 >> would do that. 38:42 >> Um, 38:43 we'll go to because you said you worked 38:45 with like a a supplement company. So, I 38:48 I'll use them as an example. Uh, let's 38:51 say, hey Kaden, I'm a supplement 38:54 e-commerce business. Um, not too big. We 38:57 spend, you know, 10 20K a month. And 39:00 right now, for the most part, we have a 39:03 performance max campaign. Um, and we 39:06 have several different asset groups 39:07 broken out by uh product type. So, we 39:10 sell protein powder, we sell creatine, 39:13 we sell multivitamins. I'm just throwing 39:15 out obviously very generic stuff here, 39:17 okay? 39:18 >> Those are three separate asset groups. 39:20 We want to test the feeder strategy. 39:22 You're saying, okay, start with a 39:26 standard shot. Let's say they're hitting 39:27 a 300% rorowaz. Okay. And like that's 39:29 what we that's what we need right now. 39:32 And obviously you would dive further 39:34 into like backend metrics. Okay. But um 39:37 I want to roll with this conversation in 39:39 regards to the masses. Okay. And how how 39:42 it's it's being applied. So 39:45 >> you're saying okay do you have a hero 39:48 product or products? And like actually 39:51 we do. It's you know muscle milk protein 39:54 chocolate. Um then all right cool. 39:58 You're just saying go build a standard 40:00 shopping campaign. Put your muscle milk 40:02 protein chocolate variation skew one 40:06 skew in that shopping campaign and put a 40:09 40% troz on it and that is bas I look at 40:13 for example so there's multiple things 40:15 here. So number one yes the summary of 40:17 it yes there's a lot of if this then 40:20 that. So yes, I would try to add more 40:24 products in there if for example the 40:26 volume is not that high. So you have to 40:28 be very aware of like what the 40:29 conversion volume in the actual account 40:31 is first 40:32 >> to then also use that as like a a 40:35 reference to what kind of budget you 40:36 want to throw at it. 40:38 >> Smaller accounts 40:40 with less volume and by small let's say 40:42 15k or under in spend. Um, not always 40:46 cuz obviously volume could be uh 40:49 relative to what you're converting on. 40:51 So if you're selling selling $1 products 40:54 or something crazy, I don't know. I 40:55 don't know of anyone doing that. But 40:56 like and you have thousands of 40:58 conversions from that for a low AOV, I 41:01 guess you would have a lot of volume in 41:02 that case. But 41:03 >> test kits probably in that space. 41:06 >> Okay. Uh yeah, that's a Yeah. So, but 41:08 but let's say 15k whatever per month or 41:12 under. You're saying like in those cases 41:14 don't probably start with one skew. Give 41:16 it more SKs to feed. 41:19 >> Pareto's rule is kind of the the general 41:21 frameworks like 8020. What's driving 80% 41:23 of the sales? You want to put that in. 41:26 >> Okay. Um and now Kaden, how do I know if 41:30 this is working? 41:33 Well, that's that's like I said the the 41:35 philosophy that I have is, you know, 41:37 looking at P&Ls, right? So, what is your 41:39 goal? New customers, what impact did 41:42 this change have towards your goal, 41:44 right? 41:46 So, that's the number one thing. So, if 41:48 and to kind of put this I'll put this to 41:50 the extreme, right? So, if I'm a 41:53 business and I want to grow and my goal 41:56 is to get more new customers, 41:59 I want to try to figure out what the 42:00 cause of the new customer growth is in 42:02 the first place. I have accounts right 42:05 now that are totally fine with like a 42:08 0.01 rorowaz, like hardly like 10% 42:10 rorowaz and are scaling totally fine in 42:15 terms of the new customer acquisition 42:16 side of it. And whenever we scale Google 42:18 or scale Facebook, we see the 42:21 correlation happen on the back end, 42:23 which is what you know the beall endall 42:25 results kind of thing is where how much 42:27 money am I paying to get a new customer 42:30 and then what's the correlation there, 42:33 right? And so I'm using benchmarks to 42:35 then triangulate that. So the goal that 42:37 I have for all the clients that I have 42:39 consult all that kind of stuff is let's 42:42 figure out the metrics that are going to 42:44 impact your bank account and then let's 42:47 work back from there right so like cost 42:49 to acquire new customer obviously 42:50 profitability is in the equation but I'm 42:53 more so responsible for how much you're 42:56 paying for new customer not if you 42:58 launch like you said that email campaign 42:59 that's going to make your global rorowaz 43:01 go up right and so that's the the number 43:05 one thing that you should be looking at 43:06 is how much are we paying for a new 43:08 customer? 43:08 >> So before you would test this, you would 43:10 say a either you have um clarity on true 43:14 back-end sales. So let's say you're work 43:17 for an agency or or a freelancer. you 43:19 have to have back-end sales access to 43:22 your client or you're using 43:26 a tool like Wicked Reports or something 43:29 to be able to at least track uh the 43:32 customer journey or the click journey 43:33 through um through this as well 43:36 >> somewhat. I'm more so I'm more so a 43:38 proponent of just looking at topline. 43:40 The attribution game is like I don't 43:42 really look at it as much. I look at 43:43 like sort of like what the platform says 43:46 and then the end results. the 43:47 attribution game tries to play in the 43:49 middle. I use that sometimes, but I've 43:51 been moving a little bit more and more 43:52 away from that. 43:53 >> Even if you were to look at the feeders 43:56 being okay, feeder is going to have a 43:58 more first if you're looking at like 44:01 first click attribution, it should have 44:03 first click attribution to it if you're 44:05 looking at like a wicked reports, right? 44:08 >> Yes. But that would be like a middle of 44:11 the story, not like the actual result of 44:13 it too, though. So, cuz attribution is 44:15 still not perfect. It might be like 80% 44:17 accurate, 90% accurate, 99% accurate, 44:19 but yes, correct. Yeah, I would look at 44:21 that as a clue between the two. 44:22 >> Okay. So, um, and I'll summarize this at 44:25 the end for someone who's like starting 44:27 out, wants to test it cuz here's the 44:29 thing. I people listen to uh I I I said 44:33 this on someone other's podcast. I'm I 44:35 respect John and you at a very high 44:38 level. So everything I I'm not speaking 44:40 ill, but people in the industry like 44:43 nerd out like super nerds love your 44:46 guys' nerdy conversations. And then but 44:49 but John is like on 10 Red Bulls when he 44:52 talks and and then you know Yeah, there 44:56 you go. And then uh and then he's got 44:59 like all these awesome ideas, but 45:01 sometimes they're just ideas. there like 45:03 he's he's just in the midst of it'd be 45:06 like I found the cure for cancer when 45:08 you actually just got a glimmer of like 45:10 hope from your testings and then it's 45:12 like he goes some people take that as 45:14 like the drug and then they all die. So, 45:17 uh, cuz like actually no, that test had, 45:20 you know, there it worked once in a 45:24 weird way, but technically if you try 45:26 universally doing this, it's going to 45:27 kill accounts. But I see a lot of people 45:31 um when I'm talking to them and if they 45:33 know of John and like, "Yeah, I'm doing 45:35 the feeder strategy." And I'm like, "You 45:37 guys spend 2K a month. You don't need to 45:39 be running some complex crazy stuff. 45:42 Just start running that. Get some 45:44 volume. and figure out what you are. The 45:46 reason your account isn't working at 2K 45:48 a month is not because you're not 45:50 utilizing the nerdiest of nerd tactics 45:53 by John Moran, okay? It's because you 45:55 guys don't even have a foundation yet. 45:58 And so, don't be doing that. You're 46:00 actually hurting yourselves. Like, this 46:02 type of stuff is for companies who are a 46:04 little more mature within their 46:06 advertising programs and they're trying 46:09 to continue to work on on on growth 46:11 stages where they're finding this 46:12 plateau. And so, um, I will summarize 46:15 this in a way for someone who like wants 46:17 to test this in like a conservative 46:20 manner. Um, with that said, when it 46:24 doesn't work, a have you had that 46:26 happen? Cuz I have, like flat out 46:29 doesn't work. Why is that? What do you 46:31 think? It's typically an issue on the 46:33 demand channels or a competitor that has 46:36 a better message than them. So like in 46:39 in every single scenario that I've had 46:41 with the feeder strategy, it's either it 46:44 works, it plateaus or the demand side of 46:47 it, there's a competitor that is taken 46:49 up or the demand is just not there per 46:51 se. Cuz like at the end of the day, 46:53 search and shopping are demand channels 46:55 >> and people are flocking to those 46:57 channels based on how they heard about 46:59 the product or the industry or whatever 47:02 the case is. They have a problem that 47:03 they're looking to solve. and does your 47:05 message resonate with the majority of 47:07 people typing in that specific keyword 47:09 or not? That's typically the the biggest 47:12 differentiator of it. So, I haven't seen 47:14 it completely like just tank an account. 47:17 I've never seen that happen, but I have 47:18 seen it hit a plateau and I have seen it 47:21 not work in terms of not being able to 47:22 push as much as you want it to push. 47:24 I've seen. So, this is an interesting 47:27 one. And this is going to lead me into 47:30 uh search and then we can wrap up here 47:32 in like 10 minutes because uh I I think 47:35 we booked an hour and we're already 47:36 almost there. Um so, sorry. 47:38 >> Works. 47:39 >> Uh 47:40 but I've seen I I have one where and 47:44 this put I always hate when this happens 47:46 cuz then I go in like my tinfoil hat 47:49 land and start thinking of conspiracy 47:51 theories in regards to like Google 47:53 robbing me. But um I have one where um 47:57 so cuz what I'm trying to do in this 47:59 case is actually uh so I started feeder 48:03 strategy and this is a high skew client. 48:06 I started with all products and I've 48:09 done that most in most cases my feeder 48:11 campaign shopping I just give it 48:13 everything 48:15 >> and conversion based 48:16 >> I start there. What's that? 48:18 >> So the conversion based campaign you 48:19 gave everything. 48:21 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So, I have 48:22 these are accounts that were 48:24 predominantly on performance max. 48:26 >> Then I'm introducing a new standard 48:29 shopping that's super aggressive on 48:32 bids, right? 48:33 >> And I usually will start lower budget 48:36 there and then start slowly ramping that 48:38 up. Um, by the way, I don't go as crazy 48:41 in cases and some of them I have like 48:43 I've done the 50% T rorowaz, but a lot 48:45 of times, let's say it's an account 48:47 that's on 500% rorowaz, I may start a 48:50 feeder at 250 300 just to and and so I'm 48:55 almost like funneling now just shopping 48:57 traffic into shopping and away from 48:59 PMAX. Basically turning PMAX into a 49:02 remarketing only campaign at that point. 49:04 But I've I've had some success just 49:07 doing that strategy alone, right? But 49:10 then I'm like, all right, what if I 49:12 started taking like you guys were 49:14 talking about individual SKs that I 49:17 really I want to push further because 49:19 I'm lo I look at as much as I can in 49:21 regards to like impressions share on 49:23 that stuff and it's like okay or I have 49:25 a competitor that's now every time I'm 49:28 searching an incognito or whatever 49:30 they're like beating me and so it's like 49:33 okay I want to push heavy on that. I've 49:36 had a I have this case where I've done 49:39 that with a product category. So, I'm 49:41 trying to do a feeder strategy now at a 49:43 product category level. Okay? So, this 49:46 product category and it's got like we'll 49:49 call it a couple hundred SKs. I have a 49:51 performance mass campaign already set up 49:53 for that product category cuz I'm 49:55 uniquely managing that. And it's got it 49:57 had its own unique rorowaz goals, too. 49:59 And it's different. It'd be like selling 50:01 keyboards and water bottles. So I don't 50:04 have to worry about audiences crossing 50:06 over. Okay. 50:09 I then took the individual skew level 50:12 feeder strategy 50:15 because I really want and I did see 50:17 every time I'm incogn incognito 50:19 searching now I'm I'm like taking up 50:21 more of the ad spots, right? However, 50:25 it's like Google just robbed me. Did the 50:29 math. I'm getting a 50% rorowaz and 50:33 that's it. Like sales actually haven't 50:36 increased on it. It's like it increased 50:39 my click traffic from that feeder 50:41 strategy, but it's just a bunch of 50:43 non-converting traffic that I'm now 50:45 getting. Have you have you ran into 50:47 that? Even though yes, I'm increased 50:49 cold traffic, it's like I just increased 50:51 a bunch of 50:53 low intent cold traffic. Even though if 50:55 you look at the search terms, it's okay. 50:56 And then after you answer, we'll go into 50:59 the search side of some tests I've done 51:00 and then I'll go into my conspiracy 51:02 theory on all of it. 51:03 >> Yeah. So, I always look at feeder 51:05 blended every time, right? So, I'll 51:07 never look at like the manual or the 51:09 lower troas campaign as like an its own 51:11 entity. I'll always blend it with the 51:13 performance max or the, you know, higher 51:15 tro shopping campaign. Um, what I 51:18 typically see though in those scenarios 51:19 is that that's what I see as the plateau 51:22 where it's like either there's a a 51:24 blockage of education from someone 51:26 that's typing in this term that's not 51:28 like showing conversion signals to then 51:30 the actual end result, it could be just 51:32 the lag time from like instead of it 51:34 being 7 days from like being, you know, 51:36 solution unaware to like solution aware 51:38 kind of thing. um and it might jump to 51:40 like, you know, 30 days or 40 days, but 51:43 let's be real, we don't want to wait 51:44 like 30 or 40 days to have just money 51:46 churning. And so what I like to do is 51:49 I'll I'll do that and I view that as a 51:51 plateau fail where like it doesn't 51:53 necessarily grow based on the current 51:56 demand. And so then you're just kind of 51:57 stuck at the current rate you're at and 51:59 you have to use other demand channels to 52:00 then grow the business. But I always try 52:02 to look at them blend blended. 52:04 >> Yeah, I agree with that. And I and I was 52:06 actually I was looking at it from um 52:08 skew level then product category level 52:10 data uh as an aggregate in the account 52:13 and all I saw was a diminishing return 52:14 on that. Okay. Then there's this feeder 52:17 strategy for search campaigns and um uh 52:21 there's a few ways of going about it 52:23 that I've you know John has done the 52:26 this is when the whole thing feeder 52:28 strategy really came out that video he 52:30 did where it's like Google's like price 52:32 fixing and uh caused a lot of noise 52:34 there but he suggested hey remove give 52:38 it a fake conversion 52:40 and like like YouTube engagement or 52:42 something and let it go on that right 52:45 out. I didn't quite buy into that and um 52:49 it seems like you guys have 52:52 changed the way you're going about 52:54 search campaign feeder strategies now. 52:57 However, I have I I have tested it and 53:01 all I found was it does kind of give you 53:04 some good traffic in the beginning and 53:06 then CPCs start decreasing, but then it 53:08 just like suffocates out cuz it's like 53:10 you have it on a conversion that it 53:12 can't actually get and over time it 53:14 never will get it and so then it just 53:16 dies. And that's what I have found. Then 53:18 it turns into like one of those you have 53:19 a $100 budget on it and it gives it 53:22 spends like $2 a day cuz it it's like 53:25 it's like this machine that's just like 53:27 broken 53:28 >> limping around like here's a click or 53:30 two. Yeah. That's like what what it 53:32 turns into. 53:33 >> Yeah. So so a couple things with that. 53:34 So the first thing was um the the idea 53:37 that that generated from was like 3 53:39 years ago and it was actually a speech 53:41 that was done on um I think it was 53:43 traffic and conversions um where we 53:46 showed evidence of an account that 53:49 didn't have a conversion action in it 53:51 but was still getting more efficient on 53:53 getting people to convert even though we 53:55 weren't sending in any data. And the 53:57 reason for that was because, you know, 53:59 long story short, the client had a 54:01 separate vendor that was holding the 54:02 website hostage. And so we essentially 54:05 couldn't add the conversion action to 54:08 the website. And so we looked at backend 54:10 numbers and looked at Google. We scaled 54:12 up Google. Backend numbers got better 54:14 and more efficient even though no 54:16 conversion action was happening. So then 54:17 that kind of led to the tinfold hat 54:19 conversation of like, well, if it's 54:21 getting more efficient at getting leads 54:23 and the terms are staying the same, but 54:25 it's just improving on efficiency, then 54:27 Google probably knows the type of user 54:29 behavior because they're trying to 54:31 optimize towards people interacting with 54:34 the website, meaning that they're 54:35 getting a good experience on the 54:36 platform. So like that was kind of like 54:37 the thought process and like sort of 54:39 like evidence of it where it's like we 54:41 can see like this is causing it. And so 54:43 that that's what led into the feeder 54:45 strategy going more towards um the like 54:47 fake conversion side of things to get 54:49 outside of that CPC cap or that high CPC 54:52 bid that we were looking at previously. 54:54 It's shifted to more of a manual and 54:58 clickbased um feeder versus just a 55:01 conversion based. So we don't use the 55:03 conversion based side of it. It's 55:05 totally different bid strategy because 55:06 the concept is you're trying to feed it 55:09 more information of users that it's just 55:11 unaware of from a conversion standpoint. 55:13 >> Right now, let's say you have a search 55:15 campaign. Uh 200% rorowaz is the bid 55:19 strategy you're running on it. And then 55:21 you've plateaued it. Hey, I can't really 55:22 grow this without I lose, you know, I it 55:25 decreases in efficiency. CPCs go up, CPA 55:28 goes up, rorowes goes down. Right? 55:30 You're now then creating a new search 55:33 campaign, not to the existing. It's a 55:36 new search campaign. And the the goal 55:38 there is to actually feed traffic to to 55:41 feed into the conversionbased campaign. 55:45 And what's the setup like that? 55:48 >> Yeah. So, two two things. So, Troas, 55:52 like you said, is at 200%. And you're at 55:54 a plateau. So, typically that's a 55:57 restriction on the bid strategy, right? 55:59 So you're you're not able to learn the 56:01 algorithm isn't able to learn past it 56:02 saying oh I can get a 200% troaz. So the 56:05 first thing I'll do is I'll try to 56:07 trough that troz down to see if I can 56:08 learn within one campaign still to keep 56:11 the efficiency all together and have as 56:13 much learning as possible. 56:15 >> When we get to the point where let's say 56:17 that we're on maximize conversion value 56:19 and we're we're super aggressive on 56:21 conversion based and we're not seeing 56:22 that efficiency happen. I control things 56:25 more so off budget versus like the bid 56:27 strategy. So, I'll push the budget on a 56:29 super aggressive bid strategy. And as 56:32 long as we're at a two or a 200% troz or 56:35 200% rorowaz goal, I'm fine with that, 56:38 but I won't scale past that. So, then 56:40 I'll go into saying, okay, let's do the 56:42 feeder strategy. Then we'll say, okay, 56:45 we need to get past the 200% or we need 56:47 to scale up on volume on this side of 56:48 the equation if they're the 56:49 conversionbased campaign. So, I'll say, 56:51 okay, we can't scale up by just 56:54 increasing the budget. We're on a super 56:56 aggressive bid strategy, so we don't 56:57 have any learning issues. But whenever I 56:59 push the button to scale on that 57:02 original campaign, CPC spike up and 57:04 efficiency just goes out the window. So 57:06 I say, okay, that's the problem. The 57:08 solution then is feeder strategy, which 57:10 I'll probably do a exact match on the 57:14 winning keywords. So we have super super 57:17 high control over the targeting. and 57:20 then I go on manual CPC or max clicks 57:22 based on, you know, the client and sort 57:24 of what we're looking for. Um, I'm more 57:26 of a fan of manual CPC because I can 57:28 control it and see it right away. But 57:30 max clicks is also viable if you just 57:32 want to get more volume and you want to 57:33 see it over a longer period of time. And 57:35 the goal, the idea there is like a 57:38 conversion-based campaign. So even if 57:40 you're on aggressive maximize conversion 57:42 value bid strategy, Google is going to 57:46 potentially ignore some of the searches 57:49 because it doesn't feel like you could 57:51 get conversions from it. And now going 57:54 to a clickbased feeder on those top 57:57 keywords, you're able to show in those 58:00 auctions now cuz you're it's no longer a 58:02 conversion base. You're literally just 58:04 buying traffic at that point. you're I 58:05 mean the whole the bid strategy itself 58:08 is literally you're paying per a click 58:10 not necessarily for a conversion. Few 58:12 things on that. 58:15 I haven't I haven't tested that as much 58:18 and my tests there have been harder to 58:20 determine whether or not I'm having that 58:22 much success with it. Um I've even done 58:24 the fake conversion thing too which has 58:26 been fun uh to get cheap cuz it starts 58:29 off expensive. if it gets super cheap 58:31 and then it's like still killer search 58:32 like terms like if I could ask a genie 58:35 give me this traffic that for search 58:38 terms it's like cool this is exactly 58:40 what I would bid on but then it's like 58:42 well it I I increased that but I I still 58:46 didn't get any additional sales on the 58:47 back end um then I've done I'm do I've 58:51 tested manual CPC max click strategy as 58:53 well um in many of cases on those it's 58:56 lead generation companies I'm trying to 58:58 pump up for not necessarily e-com 58:59 commerce. Now, 59:02 here's my conspiracy when it doesn't 59:04 work, and I I'd love to hear your 59:06 thoughts on it. 59:08 Google, it's a rigged game, okay? I I 59:11 totally believe that. It would be stupid 59:14 not to believe that. Um, I would rig the 59:16 game myself, okay? If I was Google, I 59:19 mean, it's so crazy. Like, it's the best 59:21 business in the world. You know, all the 59:22 advertisers, you literally know all 59:24 their goals, and now everyone's telling 59:25 you how much they're willing to pay for 59:27 a conversion. It's like, 59:28 >> oh my gosh, this is like what a an 59:32 incredible system to own all of the 59:35 moving parts. 59:36 >> Um, and you know, people just pay. They 59:38 don't even like think it's like here. I 59:40 don't even know what I'm buying, right? 59:42 Like they're hiding half of that stuff 59:44 now. So, the whole thing's bananas. Um, 59:48 but what it's the world we live. You got 59:50 to play the game. It's I mean, the game 59:51 makes money. Just continue to figure out 59:53 how to make money within it. And then 59:55 hopefully, yeah, Google I I I that's why 59:57 I always talk people are like, "Aren't 59:59 you freaked out about chat GBT and AI?" 1:00:01 No, because now Google has to go back to 1:00:03 innovation. They've been optimizing as a 1:00:06 company for like the last 5 years for 1:00:08 have not been an innovator. Now they 1:00:10 need to go back to innovating. And I'm 1:00:11 I'm happy to see some true competition 1:00:13 in the space. Like let's be honest, if 1:00:15 people move to LLMs for searching, which 1:00:19 we are in, especially in informational 1:00:21 type searches, but if people even move 1:00:24 to commercial intent searches for like 1:00:26 buying products and stuff, do you not 1:00:28 think these LLMs are going to have 1:00:30 advertising involved? Like no, no one on 1:00:33 the street that's not a nerd is paying 1:00:35 $20 right now to chat GPT. Okay, that's 1:00:38 not the the monetization model. So 1:00:40 eventually ads always get into it and as 1:00:44 people who make a living helping 1:00:46 companies acquire customers through 1:00:49 marketing channels will we'll have a 1:00:51 place there. So I'm actually optimistic 1:00:53 about it all. But with that said, 1:00:58 I think that Google knows 1:01:02 all the advertisers and they know all of 1:01:04 their their their conversions, right? 1:01:06 And it's no long like how the ad auction 1:01:08 works is probably really hard to explain 1:01:10 today when you're now talking about like 1:01:12 CPA and Toro as bidding. It made sense 1:01:14 when it's manual, but when I read the 1:01:16 definitions today, I'm like, I'm not 1:01:18 entirely sure how this works. Um, but 1:01:21 they make it sound like it does. But 1:01:23 they know that Kaden's willing to pay 1:01:26 $50 for a CPA, Austin's willing to pay 1:01:29 $100 a CPA, and these three other 1:01:31 advertisers are willing to pay X amount 1:01:33 of dollars, and we're all bidding on the 1:01:35 same stuff. Um, especially if you if 1:01:38 you're in like, you know, personal 1:01:39 injury lawyer, like generic stuff like 1:01:41 where it's like literally this is what 1:01:43 people want or like pest control 1:01:44 companies near me, like, okay, all the 1:01:46 pest control companies advertising are 1:01:48 probably going to go on that term. 1:01:49 Google knows what you're willing to pay 1:01:51 for it. What they don't want is one 1:01:53 advertiser dominating. Why? They would 1:01:56 rather have money from 10 advertisers, 1:01:58 right? And so they're trying to make 1:02:00 everyone happy and not just one greedy 1:02:04 company gets everything cuz that would 1:02:05 kill the system. And I think they know 1:02:10 cuz on a per day basis, there's only x% 1:02:13 of people searching for pest control 1:02:15 company near me who are actually ready 1:02:17 to pick up the phone or fill a form out. 1:02:20 Okay, that's just data. Not 100% of 1:02:23 people that's the that is so high 1:02:26 intent, 1:02:27 >> right? 1:02:27 >> Can't get more high intent than that. 1:02:28 >> Can't get more high intent. And that's 1:02:30 not 100% conversion rate of people 1:02:32 literally willing to make that next 1:02:34 step. It's only a certain percent. Now, 1:02:36 it's going to be pretty high, but it's 1:02:37 only a certain percent. I think they 1:02:39 divvy up the conversions. Um, I think 1:02:42 there's like obviously you can still 1:02:44 optimize and get around like growing 1:02:46 that, but I think they divvy up those 1:02:48 conversions. And the cases where I feel 1:02:51 like I can't move the needle any further 1:02:54 is because truly I'm getting scrap 1:02:57 traffic, even though the search term 1:02:59 looks good, it's as low intent for a 1:03:01 high intent term as you're going to get. 1:03:04 So, yes, I got pest control company near 1:03:07 me. I I exploded more of those clicks, 1:03:10 but ultimately I got zero more 1:03:13 conversions from it. And oh well, 1:03:16 Austin, maybe you're going to get those 1:03:17 30 days from now or 10 days from now. 1:03:20 >> We can't wait that long. Yeah. 1:03:21 >> On some of that, I haven't seen that. 1:03:23 And I'm like, am I actually buying just 1:03:25 absolute crap? Is this like is this like 1:03:28 even what they searched or what is 1:03:30 happening here? Because if if you go 1:03:32 back I've been in this game for over 10 1:03:34 years. If you go back to the manual 1:03:36 days, I could I mean I could just print 1:03:39 money on with alpha beta structure, 1:03:41 right? You just like camp on those exact 1:03:43 terms that that make money. And even 1:03:45 trying to do that with like a target 1:03:47 impression share bid strategy on some of 1:03:48 that stuff, unless it's brand terms, it 1:03:51 ultimately doesn't sometimes lead to 1:03:53 more. It just you just get the 1:03:55 diminishing return. And part of me is 1:03:57 like, all right, are they truly just 1:03:58 divvying up conversions to the smart 1:04:01 bidding advertisers who are telling them 1:04:03 how much they're willing to buy a 1:04:04 conversion for and then everything else 1:04:06 goes to this like scrap traffic and then 1:04:08 that's what all the clickbait people get 1:04:10 is what do you think on that? Yeah, I 1:04:12 mean the the the biggest thing the 1:04:14 biggest correlation that we've seen and 1:04:16 I mean it's just I mean common sense I 1:04:18 feel like at this point too where it's 1:04:20 like the higher the CPC is for that 1:04:22 exact same search term the higher the 1:04:25 intent is right so we're bidding on 1:04:27 intent more so than we're bidding on 1:04:28 search terms now and that's kind of been 1:04:31 one of those things to where you know 1:04:32 it's probably changed over the last 2 3 1:04:34 years um on how they've kind of shifted 1:04:36 away from like keywords to more intent 1:04:39 um and that's been sort of the the 1:04:41 reason too why sometimes on the feeder 1:04:43 I'll use manual because they don't want 1:04:44 lower cost CPCs. So that's why there's 1:04:46 kind of a choice to be made there. So 1:04:49 completely agree though in that 1:04:50 standpoint of like Google wants 1:04:52 diversity in this space. Um and it's all 1:04:55 b I mean it literally it's a business 1:04:57 they're going for profitability like 1:04:58 they're you know oh this person will pay 1:05:00 $90 for this click. Okay cool maybe I'll 1:05:03 pay $90 for it if I get 50% conversion 1:05:05 rate you know. So it just kind of 1:05:07 depends on the risk tolerance you have 1:05:09 as well too um on how much you want to 1:05:11 test that. But the feeder has been a lot 1:05:13 safer for us to kind of go through and 1:05:14 see okay is that happening in this 1:05:17 specific pool or audience pool or not. 1:05:20 Um meaning that we can bid and control 1:05:22 the bids more and not have Google 1:05:23 inflate the CPC. But sometimes there's a 1:05:27 scenario where like our bids on the 1:05:28 manual campaign will be super high like 1:05:30 double what the um maximize conversions 1:05:33 bids are and we're getting a better CPA. 1:05:36 So it's super unique towards like which 1:05:38 audience pool is actually driving or 1:05:40 what type of results are going to be 1:05:42 driven from that. 1:05:43 >> But I think the concept of how the 1:05:45 algorithm is laid out is is that yeah 1:05:47 that's perfect I think. 1:05:48 >> Okay. 1:05:50 So rigged a rigged game. 1:05:53 >> It is. And you have to play the rig as 1:05:55 much as possible. That's 1:05:57 >> still money. I know people can we can 1:05:59 all complain. Uh it's easy to do, but 1:06:01 I'm like, you know, I got I have 1:06:03 business owners that will like yell 1:06:04 about Google. I'm like, what are you 1:06:06 okay? What are you going to do about it? 1:06:08 Like you either can make money still 1:06:10 within it. It just might not be as much 1:06:12 as you were making 5 years ago, but like 1:06:14 make some money and the cheese is 1:06:16 moving. Keep moving. Figure out other 1:06:18 other things. work on your business. Um 1:06:21 it I have Google has allowed a lot of 1:06:24 lazy business owners I think um they 1:06:26 rode this bull wave uh and then and then 1:06:28 like if you got on Google early you 1:06:30 could just print money. Dude, do you 1:06:32 remember when shopping ads were free? 1:06:34 >> Yeah. 1:06:36 >> Talk about printing money. Like crazy. 1:06:39 And and so some of these businesses um 1:06:42 that started early 1:06:44 and were able to capture a lot of Google 1:06:46 Ads traffic early on and like optimize 1:06:49 accounts based off of that, they were 1:06:51 they're just lazy. They they that's all 1:06:53 they knew. And now it's like things are 1:06:55 changing for some of them or it's harder 1:06:57 or they're seeing diminishing returns 1:06:58 from it and they just they just want to 1:07:01 yell at Google and it's like yeah, 1:07:04 Google's fleecing you. Um they're 1:07:05 fleecing everyone but you can still make 1:07:07 money within it. So maximize that. But 1:07:10 what are you doing to work on your 1:07:13 business? What are you doing to expand 1:07:16 other channels? Nothing. Most of them 1:07:18 are doing nothing. And that's like the 1:07:19 problem, 1:07:21 >> right? So um man, I I wish we could 1:07:24 actually like nerd out more on I there's 1:07:26 so many other questions I have in 1:07:27 regards to like, you know, like I 1:07:30 believe top offunnel traffic 1:07:32 predominantly should dollar should be 1:07:33 pushed into meta. And this is coming 1:07:35 from a guy who's not really a meta guy, 1:07:37 but I think top of funnel just is very 1:07:39 finicky on Google. Way harder to make 1:07:42 work in my opinion based off of what I 1:07:45 see on the meta side of things. So 1:07:46 there's that holistic approach there. Um 1:07:49 and then yeah, so there's a lot more. 1:07:51 Maybe we can chat another time and do 1:07:54 one of these to wrap it though. If 1:07:58 you're if I'm an e-commerce business 1:08:00 today and let's say I'm spending 20 30 1:08:03 40,000 predominantly a lot of Pmax and 1:08:06 I'm like man I want to test feeder 1:08:08 strategy but this sounds beyond me and 1:08:10 I'm a little scared to do it. Kaden 1:08:13 what's what would you tell that guy 1:08:15 without you know breaking his uh 1:08:17 account? Well, first thing I would say 1:08:20 is number one try playing with the 1:08:22 budget on performance max and see if it 1:08:24 even impacts your business cuz what we 1:08:26 find in a lot of cases is people spend 1:08:28 too much on performance max or bottom of 1:08:30 funnel and we just trim the budget in 1:08:32 half and we see nothing change on their 1:08:34 backline volume like zero. So I do that 1:08:36 first just to see if if PMAX is even 1:08:38 driving more new customers at like a 1:08:40 good efficient rate or just cycling the 1:08:42 repeat. But if you're trying to if you 1:08:44 want to do feeder and you're like yes 1:08:46 it's not working. we need to, you know, 1:08:49 use another strategy. Then now we just 1:08:51 take the 8020 rule, you know, PTO's rule 1:08:54 where whatever's driving the majority of 1:08:56 sales, 80% of sales, put that in a 1:08:58 separate campaign, go more aggressive on 1:09:01 that, and look at your backend numbers. 1:09:03 That's the key to all of this is looking 1:09:05 at the backend numbers. What is your 1:09:06 endac how much am I paying on marketing 1:09:09 across everywhere divided by the amount 1:09:11 of new customers? And that'll give you 1:09:13 the end result. And you just benchmark 1:09:15 that with the changes. So, pretty 1:09:17 straightforward on like the feeder. Like 1:09:19 I said, standard shopping, lower trolls 1:09:22 than what you're running on PMAX, 80% of 1:09:24 the the winners, I guess, or the winners 1:09:26 that drive 80% of your sales. 1:09:28 >> Okay. 1:09:29 >> And you just let it run and see what 1:09:30 happens. 1:09:31 >> And you would suggest a very like a 40% 1:09:33 troz or are you okay going conservative? 1:09:37 Like I've I've gone like I said if let's 1:09:39 say my goal is a 300% or sorry I I think 1:09:42 in my example I said 500% rorowaz I went 1:09:45 to like a 300. 1:09:46 >> Yeah. So I typically will control based 1:09:49 on budget not as much rorowaz. 1:09:52 >> So if the account doesn't have that much 1:09:53 history and you're seeing that okay I 1:09:56 don't want to it it just depends on your 1:09:58 risk tolerance. So like you can say okay 1:10:01 we can push a 40% t roaz on there on a 1:10:04 super low budget. So that's a lower 1:10:06 risk, you know, it's lower risk, but 1:10:07 you're super aggressive. Or you can say, 1:10:10 well, I just want to see what happens if 1:10:12 I cut the T-RO in half and put it on 1:10:14 here at like a higher budget 1:10:16 >> and it might spend, it might not. You 1:10:18 can watch that and then you might have 1:10:19 to get to the point where you have to 1:10:21 trim down that T- Rorowz. 1:10:23 >> You don't have you have no accounts that 1:10:25 you run T- Rorowz on. You only just opt 1:10:28 to max conversion value 1:10:30 >> on top of funnel. I try to mainly just 1:10:33 go for super aggressive bidding cuz it's 1:10:35 all I I just control based on budgets. 1:10:37 That's my biggest thing. So like I like 1:10:39 in every single one of my accounts, 1:10:40 you'll never see a Troas at like, you 1:10:43 know, 500% and like $100 a day, let's 1:10:47 say, is the budget and then you see the 1:10:48 spend at like $300 over the last seven 1:10:51 days. 1:10:51 >> That you'll never see that in any 1:10:54 accounts. 1:10:54 >> No, I agree. Well, yeah, that suffocates 1:10:56 it out over time, too. So yeah, 1:10:58 >> but I will use it though to play with 1:11:00 the algorithm sometimes. 1:11:01 >> Okay, that opens up a whole other 1:11:03 conversation. So maybe that's the next 1:11:05 one. Kaden, appreciate it. Where can 1:11:07 people find you? Obviously, I'll have 1:11:08 you linked in the description below. 1:11:10 >> Yeah, so we got a YouTube channel as 1:11:12 well too um where we showcase all this 1:11:14 stuff as well. So if you don't, you 1:11:16 know, believe what I say, then we have 1:11:18 proof. You can just see us showing uh 1:11:21 results firsthand. But like Austin was 1:11:23 saying as well, we we're testing stuff 1:11:26 and so we push stuff the live and it's 1:11:27 like hey, we've seen this work in five 1:11:29 accounts kind of thing. And so we try to 1:11:32 try to do as best as we can to try to 1:11:34 keep it as honest as possible in terms 1:11:36 of like don't go do this right away, but 1:11:38 if you want to do it, here you go. Um 1:11:40 and yeah, so YouTube, CP Pro Growth, 1:11:42 we're there. And then um on LinkedIn as 1:11:44 well, you could find me as well, too. 1:11:46 >> Cool. And again, uh you can find all of 1:11:48 his information in the description 1:11:50 below. So dude, had fun. I want to do 1:11:52 this uh again. Appreciate you being on, 1:11:55 man. 1:11:55 >> Yeah, thanks for having me and excited 1:11:57 to talk again. 1:11:58 >> Yeah, absolutely.