0:00 What if I told you the lawyer flying on 0:02 a private jet with Odell Beckham Jr. 0:04 after beating Nike in court is the same 0:06 guy helping UGC game creators protect 0:08 their rights and avoid milliondoll 0:11 lawsuits. 0:12 >> A big one we had recently was we re we 0:14 represented Odell Beckham Jr. the NFL 0:17 player. He actually went to trial 0:19 against Nike. It was a dispute over a 0:21 shoe endorsement contract. We prevailed. 0:23 He actually flew us out to Las Vegas on 0:26 a private jet afterwards. He was so 0:27 happy which was like 0:28 >> Oh my god. Yeah, pretty cool party in 0:30 Las Vegas with with OBJ. 0:33 >> From Grand Theft Auto, ownership battles 0:35 to a Fortnite legal fight that could 0:37 change UGC forever. This episode is 0:40 packed with behindthescene legal stories 0:43 you've never heard. 0:44 >> MM Games has a game called Crazy Red 0:47 Versus Blue. Joo Studios has Super Red 0:50 Versus Blue. So, you can't copyright the 0:52 concept of red versus blue. They're 0:54 saying it's the way that you've 0:55 implemented it virtually identical to 0:58 the way that we did it. Joo Studios, the 1:01 defendant, what they're saying is no, 1:03 no, you can't have a copyright over this 1:06 entire genre of red versus blue. 1:08 >> We're talking about the biggest mistakes 1:10 that could get your game taken down and 1:13 even why being legally right might still 1:15 make you lose. Well, it's Mickey Mouse, 1:18 but his head's yellow, you know, or it's 1:20 it's Pokemon, but he's got, you know, 1:22 rounded ears and, you know, an extra 1:25 digit on his hand. Even if you're right, 1:28 you still lose because they have an army 1:30 of lawyers and millions and millions of 1:32 dollars. Just stay away. 1:34 >> This is the episode every UGC creator, 1:36 gamedev, and even brands need to hear. 1:39 We're covering gaming law, creator 1:42 rights, big lawsuits, parody myths, and 1:45 how to protect your name, your game, and 1:47 your future. Stick around till the end 1:49 because Adam drops advice that could 1:51 literally save your business. Let's go. 1:55 >> This is Creative Juice. 1:58 >> Adam, how you doing? 1:59 >> Pretty good. Pretty good. How about 2:00 yourself? 2:01 >> I'm doing very well. Very well. Thank 2:03 you so much for coming on. I'm super 2:05 excited to have you. 2:06 >> Oh, thanks for having me. This is fun. 2:08 >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. We have lots 2:09 of cool questions. I even pulled the 2:11 community on some questions on on 2:13 today's episode. So, it's going to be 2:14 really fun. All right, let's just jump 2:16 in. So, you know, before we get into the 2:19 big topics, um let's start with your 2:21 background so people kind of know where 2:22 you're coming from. Like, what kind of 2:23 work do you do in in law or gaming law? 2:26 >> Yeah, so uh I should start by saying I 2:28 am a real lawyer. Sometimes people ask 2:30 me that. I graduated from uh UCLA law 2:33 school almost 20 years ago, which is 2:35 kind of hard to believe. And uh I 2:38 practiced in San Francisco for the first 2:40 7 years and then I moved up to uh 2:43 Portland, Oregon about 15 years ago and 2:45 I've been practicing in Oregon ever 2:47 since. My practice I'm licensed in 2:49 Washington, Oregon and California. Uh 2:53 but I practice national nationally all 2:55 over the country. I have clients all 2:57 over the country particularly postco. Um 2:59 it's really common to work with people 3:01 all around the country. Uh so I started 3:03 off um doing commercial litigation, 3:05 business litigation. That's basically 3:07 people fighting about stuff, business 3:10 disputes, um, and with kind of a focus 3:13 on on started off with a focus on 3:15 technology disputes, working with a lot 3:17 of startups. And since we're in 3:19 Portland, there's a lot of shoe 3:20 litigation because we've got Adidas is 3:22 out here. Yeah. 3:23 >> And uh, Nike is out here. 3:25 >> Yeah. So, we're one of the only firms in 3:27 Portland that one of the bigger firms 3:29 that's adverse to Nike. So, we sue Nike 3:32 constantly. 3:34 >> Yeah. We so when an athlete has a 3:38 dispute with Nike, they often come to 3:39 our firm. So for example, a big one we 3:43 had recently was we re we represented 3:45 Odell Beckham Jr. the NFL player. He 3:48 actually went to trial against Nike. It 3:50 was a dispute over a shoe endorsement 3:52 contract. We prevailed. So I should say 3:54 we defensed Nike's claim. So we were 3:57 really excited about that. He actually 3:59 flew us out to Las Vegas on a private 4:01 jet afterwards. He was so happy. Which 4:03 was like 4:04 >> Oh my god. 4:04 >> Yeah. pretty cool party in Las Vegas 4:06 with with OBJ. 4:08 >> Oh my, that's the coolest story ever. 4:10 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh so about 10 years 4:13 ago, the the way I got into all this 4:15 video game stuff was uh about 10 years 4:17 ago, we brought were brought in to 4:20 assist with one of the owners of the uh 4:22 of Grand Theft Auto. There was a big 4:24 fight between the three owners of Grand 4:26 Theft Auto and my firm was brought in to 4:29 represent one of the uh one of the 4:31 owners. And that was my first foray into 4:34 video game work. And after that, I 4:36 started to get referrals mostly for 4:38 smaller things and a bunch of Roblox 4:40 stuff. Um, and so people would call me 4:43 for typically it was like a copyright 4:45 dispute. Somebody would be sued for 4:46 copyright. And what I realized is after 4:48 I helped resolve that dispute that they 4:50 actually had all sorts of other problems 4:53 and legal risks that were way more risky 4:56 and worse than whatever that copyright 4:58 dispute was that I just resolved. Yeah. 5:01 >> And so, you know, I would fix the one 5:03 issue and then I would start working on 5:04 the other issue. And I really liked 5:06 working in the space like it's really 5:08 exciting. There's like a lot of really 5:10 nuanced issues and I really like the 5:11 clients. You know, I was telling 5:13 somebody, you know, sometimes if I'm 5:15 working with a real estate developer, 5:17 it's the client is like in his 60s or 5:19 70s. He's been in a ton of litigation 5:21 and he really uses a lawyer as a tool. 5:24 You know, he doesn't care what I think. 5:25 He's just like, "Go do this, go do 5:27 that." 5:27 >> Yeah. you know, he's not he doesn't 5:30 really care about my opinion. But what's 5:31 really nice about working with younger 5:32 people who haven't worked with lawyers 5:34 so much is that you're really doing a 5:36 lot more kind of counseling and advice 5:38 and strategic stuff that that they 5:40 haven't really thought of before or 5:41 don't know about. So anyway, so I 5:42 started doing this Roblox work and they 5:45 started referring me to their friends 5:47 and all of a sudden I was doing a lot of 5:49 Roblox work and I was at RDC, the the 5:53 Roblox uh convention and I was with my 5:55 clients and I was like, I really like 5:56 working with you guys. I really like the 5:58 UGC space. How do I get more clients? 6:00 Like I really want to do more of this. 6:02 Yeah. And they were like, "Oh, Adam, you 6:03 got to get on Twitter. You got to get on 6:05 Twitter." 6:05 >> And I was like, "Really? Okay. Well, cuz 6:08 you know, lawyers are inherently fairly 6:10 conservative, but down folks, 6:13 >> never, you know, obviously I had a 6:14 Twitter account, but I'd never 6:16 participated in, you know, social media 6:18 before. And so I was like, "All right, 6:20 I'm just going to go for it." And so I 6:22 started posting on Twitter and on 6:23 LinkedIn and on other places. And my 6:26 posts were basically my target audience 6:28 is, you know, young people in their 6:30 early 20s in the UGC space. So 6:33 Minecraft, Roblox, Fortnite, who, you 6:36 know, they've had some success. They're 6:38 interested in legal issues and but they 6:40 don't really know a lot about it. So I 6:42 try to kind of raise things I think they 6:44 would be interested in. So sometimes 6:46 it's lawsuits relating to the UGC space 6:48 or other times it's just like hey this 6:51 is a question I get a lot and people are 6:54 interested in that. 6:55 >> Yeah. 6:55 >> And then from that I've just been 6:58 flooded with calls and the more work I 7:00 do the more referrals I get. Um and uh 7:03 it's been really exciting because to 7:05 answer your question even probably more 7:06 than you wanted to know. 7:07 >> No this is great. 7:09 >> So what I what I've learned through all 7:11 of this is that you've got big law 7:14 firms. you know, they've got thousand 7:15 lawyer a thousand lawyers. They're 7:17 charging 2,000 bucks an hour. They're 7:19 servicing the platform. Epic, Roblox, 7:22 uh, you know, AAA studios, they all have 7:24 these big expensive lawyers and they're 7:26 super lawyered up. But then you have, 7:28 um, independent studios in the UGC space 7:31 who have no lawyers, have no access to 7:34 lawyers, and a lot of them are making a 7:37 lot of money and are being really 7:38 successful, and they're just completely 7:40 almost locked out of the legal space. 7:43 Mhm. 7:44 >> And so one of the things I do have done 7:47 is kind of help these people. What they 7:50 don't realize is the amount of money 7:51 that these clients are making. Some of 7:53 them, I mean, they're making more money 7:55 than our established businesses that we 7:57 represent, but they don't have any of 7:58 the legal infrastructure that these 8:00 other companies do. And so one of the 8:03 things we're doing is trying to help 8:04 them, you know, get set up with the 8:06 basics and get, you know, get 8:07 protections. And then for some of my 8:09 other clients, it's like, okay, you're 8:11 making, you know, a million dollars a 8:14 month. Okay, where what are you doing 8:16 with your money? Because, you know, do 8:18 you have it all invested in crypto or do 8:20 you have a savings plan? Because for 8:23 some of these people, you know, what I 8:25 tell people is these my developer 8:27 clients are kind of like professional 8:28 athletes. They're super talented and 8:31 sophisticated in one very narrow area, 8:33 but they don't have some of the like 8:35 life skills and life experiences that 8:37 you need, you know, in long-term 8:39 thinking because, you know, you may be 8:41 making $10 million a year now, but like 8:43 platforms change, your connection to the 8:45 zeitgeist changes, and if you are 8:47 responsible with your money, you may 8:50 never have to work again for the rest of 8:51 your life. And so, you know, some some 8:54 of the things I've done is I've hooked 8:55 up clients with money managers trying to 8:58 help them, you know, all right, maybe 8:59 buy one Lamborghini, but like put the 9:01 rest put the rest in bonds, you know. 9:03 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 9:04 >> Get get a retirement plan. So, you know, 9:06 that's been kind of also a fun aspect of 9:08 what I've been doing. 9:09 >> Very cool. So, not even just on the 9:10 legal side, helping them on their 9:12 finances, which Yeah. I mean, totally. 9:14 There's they need help with the legal 9:16 side for sure. And on the finance side, 9:18 like you said, I mean, there so many 9:19 young people coming into the space. I've 9:21 even tried to help some of them. People 9:23 just like, "What are you doing with the 9:24 money?" Like, some of these kids don't 9:25 even save for taxes. Like, they don't 9:27 even think about those things. You know, 9:29 >> it really is like professional athletes, 9:31 which is there are so many sharks and 9:34 they see blood in the water. And that 9:37 could be, you know, through risky 9:38 investments, through stealing IP, but 9:41 it's hard to know when you're young and 9:43 you're making all this money like who to 9:45 trust. 9:46 >> Yeah. And you know, I have I mean, 9:49 obviously they're paying me, but I'm a 9:51 fiduciary and I really my only stake in 9:54 all of this, you know, I'm not getting 9:55 paid a commission is I want to make sure 9:58 that they're safe and that they're 9:59 protected and I want what's best for 10:00 them. So hopefully people trust me to 10:03 steer them in the right direction. 10:05 >> Very cool. And and again, I I found you 10:07 on social media. So, like you posting to 10:10 social media is kind of how I found you. 10:11 And no one that I know is doing the UGC 10:14 lawyer like content stuff. And honestly, 10:17 I didn't even know there's like a a sub 10:20 um category of that in law, which make I 10:22 mean now I do. I've the last few years 10:24 I've been really into this space. But 10:25 like it is huge. And obviously the 10:29 growth of UGC over the past five years 10:31 too has just been insane, right? So and 10:34 it's just going to get even bigger, 10:36 right? There's a handful of lawyers kind 10:38 of spread out through the country who 10:40 are who have really kind of see the 10:42 need, see the opportunity, are 10:44 interested in it and are focusing on it. 10:46 But for the most part, there's, you 10:48 know, there's a lot of snobbery against 10:49 UGC. 10:50 >> Yeah. 10:50 >> You know, like who people, you know, 10:53 even amongst lawyers, people like, oh, 10:55 Fortnite Creative or Roblox, whatever. 10:57 Like that's just a bunch of kids. like 10:59 they're they're like, I work for such 11:00 and such studio and it's like so much 11:02 more prestigious even though they 11:04 probably don't realize that my clients 11:05 are making like way more money than 11:07 them. 11:08 >> Not a lot of people understand that. No, 11:11 very cool. Great answer, man. Again, so 11:13 happy to have you. So, like I got to ask 11:16 this one. So, you already kind of gave 11:17 us the Odell Beckham story, which is 11:19 crazy, but like I wanted to know like 11:20 what's the weirdest or wildest case 11:22 you've seen in the UGC space? You know, 11:25 Grand Theft Auto Dispute was probably 11:27 the wildest one that I've been involved 11:29 in. I can't talk about that. If you 11:31 Google it, there's lots of uh there's 11:33 lots of stories about it on the 11:34 internet, but I I can't really get into 11:36 any specifics. 11:37 >> Dang it. Okay, then. All right. All 11:39 right. All right. We can keep it there. 11:41 Well, another case that's currently 11:43 going on right now that's um it's 11:45 definitely been making our rounds in the 11:47 community, and I would love to hear kind 11:49 of you break it down. So, um, can you 11:52 explain the R red verse blue lawsuit 11:54 between Joo and it's not what's the 11:58 what's the comp the company suing them? 12:00 Um, 12:00 >> MM games. 12:01 >> Mm Games. Thank you. 12:03 >> Um, yeah, I would love to kind of get a 12:05 breakdown of that and kind of like maybe 12:07 what lessons can UGC creators take from 12:09 it. 12:10 >> So, this is an interesting case because 12:12 it's gone a lot further than a lot of 12:15 other UGC disputes. So 12:18 >> like let's before I talk about this 12:20 case, let's just back up and talk about 12:22 lawsuits in general. 12:23 >> Okay, 12:24 >> lawsuits are extraordinarily expensive. 12:27 And so most things get resolved either 12:30 before a lawsuit is filed or very early 12:33 on because often times the cost of the 12:36 lawsuit is in the risk involved is so 12:38 high compared to like you know the 12:42 reward. 12:43 >> Yeah. So, for for a UGC dispute to 12:46 actually go in front of a judge, for big 12:49 filings to be issued, for for opinions 12:51 to be issued, there has to be a lot of 12:53 money at stake. Um, or else it just 12:56 doesn't pencil out. 12:58 >> So, the Joo Studios MM Games dispute, 13:01 basically, here's here's what's going 13:03 on. Mm Games has a game called Crazy Red 13:06 Versus Blue. Joo Studios has Super Red 13:09 Versus Blue. MM Games sued them for 13:12 copyright infringement and said, "Hey, 13:14 your red versus blue game infringes our 13:16 copyright on our red versus blue game." 13:19 Now, in general, concepts are not 13:22 copyrightable. So, you can't copyright 13:24 the concept of red versus blue. And what 13:27 MM games is trying to argue, they're 13:30 they're saying it's not just that it's 13:31 red versus blue. They're saying it's the 13:33 way that you've implemented it. Like 13:35 where you put items, the way it looks on 13:38 the screen, the game play, all of that 13:41 is like virtually identical to the way 13:44 that we did it. That's what Joo is 13:45 saying. Now, MM Games is saying, "Oh, 13:47 no. This is just a concept." 13:50 >> MM Games is saying that. Jo is saying, 13:52 "This is just a concept." Right. 13:54 >> Well, let me MM Games is not talking 13:56 about the concept. Okay. Okay. 13:58 >> Mm. Mm. Games is the plaintiff and 14:00 they're saying, "No, no, we're not going 14:02 after the entire concept of red versus 14:04 blue." They can't say that because they 14:06 know that that's that's an argument that 14:09 will not fly. 14:10 >> Instead, what they're saying is your red 14:12 versus blue is virtually identical to 14:14 our red versus blue. All the unique and 14:17 creative choices you could have made, 14:19 you you copied the way we did it. 14:21 >> Okay. 14:22 >> Okay. 14:23 Uh, Joo Studios, the defendant, they're 14:26 trying to characterize it the opposite 14:28 way. What they're saying is, no, no, you 14:30 can't have a copyright over this entire 14:33 genre of red versus blue. That's what 14:35 you're actually trying to do. Everybody 14:37 does this. There's nothing special about 14:40 this. And you're just trying to get a 14:41 monopoly on the entire space. In 14:43 addition, what MMA what the defendant 14:46 Joo Studios is saying is there's nothing 14:49 even creative about this. you're just 14:51 using Epic's like pre-made assets and 14:54 kind of arranging them in in ways and 14:56 you you don't have a right to do that. 14:58 So MM Games not only filed a lawsuit, 15:01 they also are seeking a preliminary 15:03 injunction. That's when they ran to 15:05 court and they said, "Judge, we are so 15:08 confident that we're going to win and 15:10 the harm to us is so bad, you need to 15:13 immediately take the infringing game 15:16 down. Take Joo Studios game down. It's a 15:19 it's an extraordinary remedy that's 15:22 rarely granted and I think 15:24 >> as a armchair lawyer quarterback here a 15:28 very poor strategic decision by MM 15:30 games's lawyers to do that. 15:32 >> Okay. 15:33 >> Okay. So there was the judge issued a 15:36 tenative ruling last week. A tenative 15:38 ruling is where the judge says here's 15:41 where I think I'm going with this. Show 15:42 up at the argument. You can try to talk 15:44 me out of it if I got anything wrong. 15:46 The judge in his tenative ruling ruled 15:49 against MM games and for Joo Studios. 15:53 Now his reasoning is really interesting. 15:56 He didn't rule on the merits of the 15:58 copyright dispute. He didn't say I, you 16:02 know, that there is copyright 16:04 infringement or there's not. He ruled 16:06 based on some other issues. Number one, 16:08 he said, "What's the emergency here? 16:11 These games have been on the platform 16:13 for a year plus before you filed this 16:16 lawsuit and before you sought this 16:18 emergency injunction. If this was truly 16:20 emergency, you would have done this a 16:22 year ago. You can't come in now and say 16:24 it's an emergency when you sat on your 16:25 hands for a year. 16:27 >> Okay. Number two, he said, "It's not 16:30 even clear to me what you own and you're 16:33 claiming a copyright for because all of 16:35 this is subject to 16:38 Epic's terms of service." And Epic's 16:40 terms of service basically gives it the 16:43 right to use any IP that you create as a 16:47 UGC creator on its platform. So the 16:50 judge said, "Hypothetically, I could 16:52 grant your preliminary injunction and 16:54 say, Epic, you need to take this game 16:56 down, but Epic wouldn't have to comply 16:58 with that because its own rules say that 17:00 they own they have the right to keep it 17:02 up. So what's the point of me even 17:04 granting this if Epic can just if Epic 17:06 has the right to keep it up in the first 17:08 place?" And then he said, "By the way, 17:11 why isn't Epic a party to this? 17:12 Shouldn't Epic be a party to this 17:14 lawsuit?" Because I think there's this 17:17 concept of a necessary party under the 17:19 law. You can't, you know, you have to 17:21 include all the people who all the 17:22 entities that are involved in the 17:24 dispute and Epic wasn't named. So he 17:27 says, "I want further briefing from Epic 17:30 about what their position is on all of 17:32 this." 17:33 >> I'm learning so much right now. 17:34 >> Yeah. The thought thickens. Now, what do 17:36 we know about Epic's position right now? 17:38 Here's what we know. Mm Games submitted 17:40 a DMCA takedown notice to Epic about Joo 17:44 Studios Games. Epic didn't process it. 17:47 They didn't take the game down. Why not? 17:49 Well, obviously Epic wanted didn't want 17:51 the game to go down. It could be for a 17:54 number of reasons. One reason is that 17:56 they didn't think it infringes. A second 17:58 reason would be the implication of this. 18:01 If Epic took this game down, what does 18:03 that say to other creators about what 18:06 the concept of infringement means? And 18:08 there's potentially thousands of other 18:10 games that could all be impacted by 18:12 this. 18:12 >> Definitely. 18:13 >> And that the more games that come down, 18:16 the that hurts Epic's bottom line, 18:18 right? 18:18 >> Yeah. Yeah. 18:19 >> Because because Epic is incentivized to 18:22 have as many of these games up and 18:24 successful as possible. And people 18:26 aren't going to make Fortnite creative 18:28 games if they think that they can just 18:30 be DMCA for anything. Right. The other 18:34 thing that we know is that Epic 18:36 submitted evidence in favor of Joo 18:39 Studios in connection with that 18:41 preliminary injunction lawsuit. Now, 18:43 they didn't say this is our position, 18:46 but what they did do is provide a 18:48 declaration explaining that number one, 18:52 there are thousands of games on Fortnite 18:55 Creative that are red versus blue. 18:57 >> Yes. 18:58 >> And number two, they discussed their 19:00 rights under the terms of service. So, 19:02 Epic didn't say, "This is our position." 19:04 Yeah. But they didn't submit a 19:06 declaration on behalf of MM Games. They 19:09 submitted it on behalf of Joo. And the 19:11 judge actually said that. He said, 19:13 "Well, I don't know what Epic's position 19:14 is, but it does seem interesting that 19:18 they submitted the declaration on behalf 19:20 of Joo and not on MM Games." So, in any 19:24 event, to make a long story even longer, 19:26 there will be another hearing where the 19:28 judge is going to get information about 19:30 what Epic's position is, but it seems 19:32 very, very unlikely that MM Games is 19:35 going to get this injunction. So, this 19:37 is enormously significant for a bunch of 19:39 reasons. 19:41 Hey, number one, when I say this stuff 19:43 is expensive, the cost of an injunction 19:45 like this could easily be a million 19:47 dollars in legal fees on each side. 19:49 Number two, when a judge denies an 19:52 injunction, even though he says, "I'm 19:54 not ruling on the merits," he's 19:55 basically telegraphing to the parties 19:58 what he thinks of your case. And so, if 20:01 you lose an injunction, you're you're 20:03 you're the rest of your dispute is going 20:05 to be a real uphill battle. On the other 20:07 hand, if you win an injunction, you've 20:08 basically won the whole case because the 20:10 judge is saying, "This is what I think 20:12 about it." So, typically after an 20:14 injunction hearing, the parties settle 20:17 because it just doesn't make sense to 20:19 spend more money fighting when the judge 20:21 has already strongly telegraphed what 20:23 his position is on all of this. 20:25 >> Yeah. 20:26 >> Yeah. And number two, the denial of this 20:29 is going to have significant impacts on 20:31 other creators in the space in terms of 20:33 setting what are the guard rails of what 20:35 we can do and what we can't do. 20:37 >> No. Yeah. Wow. I'm I'm learning so much. 20:40 We're going to have some I have more 20:41 questions here that probably going to 20:43 answer dive more into some of this stuff 20:44 that you'll answer. So, let's this 20:47 lawsuit we don't have to use that 20:49 example, but any lawsuit. So, say they 20:51 take me to court, right? and this 20:53 happens to me and I'm I have these 20:55 million-dollar legal fees now. Am I on 20:57 the hook for this? Can I make the person 20:59 that's taking me to court pay this? 21:01 Like, how how does that work? 21:02 >> Yeah. So, that's a great question. In 21:04 the legal system in America, generally, 21:06 you're responsible for your own legal 21:08 fees, whether you win or whether you 21:11 lose. There are times when there's like 21:13 a statute or like a rule of law that 21:15 says one part, the losing party has to 21:17 pay the winning party. And then also in 21:19 agreements, people can contract to say, 21:22 "Hey, if we get into a dispute and we 21:25 have a lawsuit, the loser pays the 21:27 winner's fees." But unless there's some 21:29 special thing like that, everyone pays 21:31 their own way. And in copyright 21:33 disputes, which is what this is, 21:35 generally everyone has to pay their own 21:37 way. 21:38 >> Exactly. 21:39 And so when you if you get sued for 21:41 copyright infringement, one of the 21:43 things you consider is win or lose, is 21:46 it worth paying my attorneys, you know, 21:48 a million bucks, or would I be better 21:50 off using that money, a fraction of that 21:53 money to try to settle the case? 21:55 >> Yeah. Which of course you are. If I'm on 21:57 the hook that any business, any any 21:59 normal person would understand. That's 22:01 that's wild. Yeah. I I didn't know that. 22:03 And that I always thought, I guess in my 22:06 mind, that if I was sued, I won, they 22:10 could pay my legal fees still. You know 22:11 what I mean? Cuz like that that seems 22:14 normal or that seems it seems like that 22:17 would that seems like that's how it 22:19 should be done. 22:20 >> I know that's how they do it in other 22:21 countries. That's not the way they do it 22:23 in America. In America, it's a very low 22:26 bar to file a lawsuit. Anybody can do 22:29 it. 22:30 >> Is it $20 or $30 or something? I mean, 22:32 it's a few hundred bucks. 22:33 >> Yeah. A few hundred bucks. Yeah. 22:34 >> But legally, it's a low bar. It's not 22:37 hard to file a lawsuit that passes 22:39 muster, but it is very hard to win. 22:41 >> Yeah. Wow. Wow. No, that's great, man. 22:44 We're starting out with the bank. That's 22:45 That's wild. So, let's kind of we kind 22:47 of covered some of this, but I want to 22:48 get into it. So, like one of the biggest 22:50 issues I think creators run into is IP 22:53 and copyrights, right? We talked a 22:54 little bit about that. So, like what is 22:56 the real risk of using IP you don't own? 22:59 that I get this question constantly. 23:01 >> I bet. I bet. 23:02 >> Yeah. Here's the deal. Nobody really 23:05 knows when something people People ask 23:08 me all the time, if I change my assets, 23:11 so it's 30% different, is that enough? 23:13 Can it be 20% different? Can it be 40% 23:16 different? And the answer is it depends 23:18 on what you're stealing. Okay? If it's 23:21 Mickey Mouse, if it's Nintendo, those 23:24 are notorious latigious companies who 23:27 are very protective of their um 23:31 >> of their IP. Yeah. 23:32 >> And so if you're like, well, it's Mickey 23:33 Mouse, but his head's yellow, you know, 23:36 or it's it's Pokemon, but he's got, you 23:38 know, rounded ears and, you know, an 23:41 extra digit on his hand. 23:44 >> Nintendo Nintendo doesn't care. 23:46 >> Yeah. And even if you're right, you 23:49 still lose because if Nintendo DMCAs 23:52 you, you're not going to fight it 23:54 because they have an army of lawyers and 23:56 millions and millions of dollars and 23:58 most creators don't. So what I tell to 24:00 people is you have to really consider, 24:03 and this is not legal advice, right? But 24:05 you have to consider who are you 24:06 stealing from? What are their, you know, 24:08 what are their assets? You know, how 24:10 much money do they have? How big are 24:11 they? And what is the likelihood that 24:13 they're actually going to go after you? 24:15 So Nintendo, you know, Marvel, Disney, 24:19 stay away. You got to give them wide 24:21 birth. 24:22 >> But if it's some other independent 24:24 creator or small company or who's much 24:27 less likely to either notice or go after 24:30 you, probably the margin of error is 24:33 larger. So if it's some random thing, 24:35 it's like, well, you know, you might be 24:37 able to get away with changing the color 24:39 or changing the changing the eyes or 24:42 whatever it is. But like if it's one of 24:43 those big people who's latgious, just 24:46 stay away, right? 24:47 >> Because even if you're legally in the 24:49 right, the second a disputes once the 24:51 dispute starts, you lose. You're So 24:55 that's the answer. 24:56 >> No, great answer. And to kind of 24:58 piggyback on that, like so what if I 25:00 this is kind of more around par parody 25:02 law, right? So like what if I called my 25:05 version of Eggman Egg Head and use a 25:07 custom model? Would I be protected under 25:09 parody law or something like that? 25:12 parity 25:14 >> parity law is massively misunderstood. 25:17 >> Okay. 25:18 >> What you're describing is is is a common 25:20 misconception. That's not actually par. 25:22 So 25:23 >> So there's this thing called fair use. 25:26 All right. Which many people have heard, 25:28 but most people who aren't lawyers don't 25:31 understand. And fair use is a defense to 25:34 copyright infringement. It only comes up 25:36 after you're sued. and you get to say, 25:38 "Here's why what I did was actually 25:41 okay." Again, once you're in fair use 25:43 territory, you've already lost because 25:45 you're in you're in a dispute. 25:48 >> But one of the one of the So there's one 25:51 of the factors for fair use is is this a 25:54 parody? What you're describing is more 25:56 is what's called like satire. A parody 25:59 under the law is where you are actually 26:01 using the same asset or images or IP, 26:05 but you're doing it in a way to critique 26:08 or make 26:08 >> park's using Trump's head. 26:10 >> Exactly. That's that's actually the 26:12 image that I was going to you that's the 26:14 that's the example I was going to use. 26:15 Okay. Yeah. 26:16 >> So, the reason why what South Park does 26:18 is parody is what they do is they take 26:21 the actual copyrighted image like, you 26:24 know, making fun of Tom Cruz or Christy 26:26 Gnome or Trump, right? the protected IP, 26:28 but they're using it to make some type 26:30 of critique or commentary about 26:33 Scientology and Tom Cruz or you know ice 26:36 arrest and Christy Gnome. An example of 26:38 something that somebody tried to say was 26:40 a parody and lost in court. There was 26:43 somebody made a book that was a mashup 26:45 of Dr. Seuss and Star Trek and it was 26:48 like instead of Oh, the Places You Will 26:50 Go, it was like Star Trek stuff but like 26:53 using the same type of like poetry. 26:56 They were sued by Dr. Seuss and they 26:58 lost. And what the court said is that's 27:01 not parody. That's just humor in the 27:03 same style as Dr. Seuss. That's not fair 27:06 use. So that's kind of the different 27:08 that's that it's a subtle difference. So 27:09 the answer to your question is what you 27:11 described is not fair is is not it's not 27:14 it's not fair. But if you just look at 27:17 it from a straight IP analysis is is 27:19 what I'm calling this thing different 27:21 enough from what it is that it's not 27:24 likely to create confusion, maybe you're 27:26 okay. 27:27 >> Okay. No, great great answer. So I this 27:30 is kind of something that was just 27:32 recently happened and it's around Squid 27:34 Games. So Squid Games, they've had these 27:38 knockoff Squid Games in in Fortn on on 27:41 Roblox everywhere. 27:42 >> Oh yeah, I've I've worked on them. 27:44 >> There you go. So, so this game's been up 27:46 for a year, maybe longer, doing numbers, 27:50 right? It's a top game, Octoame, 27:52 whatever those called, and stayed up 27:54 there. And then finally, they announced 27:56 Squid Games IP is going to be coming 27:58 into UFN. Basically, they started taking 28:01 down some of the games. But, but the 28:03 thing was like literally the next day 28:05 there was a brand new one up and it 28:07 would stay and it was still crossing 28:10 that line. I guess I I don't know what 28:12 to to ask on this question, but like 28:15 >> how does that work? Why is that 28:16 happening? 28:16 >> How does like what's going on there? 28:18 >> Yeah. Okay. Brands now are really 28:21 struggling with UGC because what they're 28:24 seeing is, you know, particularly on 28:26 Roblox, but also a bit on Fortnite. What 28:28 they're seeing are essentially pirated 28:30 games that are massively successful. 28:33 >> Um uh on Roblox, the classic example was 28:36 My Hero Academia. Um, and also there's 28:39 this with Squid Games where you have 28:40 knockoff unlicensed versions that are 28:42 massively successful. From the brand's 28:45 perspective, brands don't like when 28:47 their IP is being used without 28:49 permission. On the other hand, this is 28:52 great publicity. 28:53 >> Free press. 28:54 >> Yeah, exactly. Because you have all 28:56 these kids who are playing, you know, 28:58 Squid games on Roblox and on Fortnite 29:01 who might not otherwise get onto Netflix 29:03 and even know what it is, right? So 29:05 Netflix or whoever the IP holder has a 29:08 choice. Are we going to DMCA this game 29:10 and take it down and make our own game 29:12 and put it up, right? Or or take it 29:14 down. So a couple years ago in Roblox, 29:17 there was a very successful game that 29:18 was based on My Hero Academia and the 29:21 Japanese anime company that owned it. 29:23 DMC ate it. So the game got to t taken 29:26 down. this was a beloved game and they 29:28 put up their own official game and 29:30 everybody hated the official game and so 29:33 they completely alienated their target 29:36 audience cuz now everybody hates the 29:38 owner of the IP for like ruining their 29:42 favorite game and putting up their own 29:44 corporate crappy game that nobody wants 29:46 to play. And so IP holders are 29:49 struggling with what do we do in the 29:50 situation? what they should be doing is 29:53 they should be reaching out to these 29:56 unlicensed games and partnering with 29:58 them and you know working out a 30:00 reasonable royalty and so it becomes a 30:02 win-win for everybody. The only reason 30:05 why that's not happening more is I think 30:08 a lack of a few reasons but I think one 30:10 is a lack of connections between the 30:12 developers and the IP holders. You know, 30:14 a lot of these developers are 17, 18, 19 30:17 years old and, you know, the IP holder 30:20 is, you know, some 45 year old white guy 30:23 in in a corporate suit somewhere, 30:25 >> right? And they don't know each other. 30:27 They're not connected. And if they do 30:29 connect, there's a massive there's a 30:31 massive 30:33 >> culture culture shock, right? 30:35 cuz on you know brands want to have 30:38 fully developed um 30:41 >> you know products to reflect their brand 30:43 and that's just not how we do it in UGC 30:45 right so like on Roblox in particular 30:48 Fortnite 2 when the games get put out 30:50 they're often halfbaked because people 30:52 want to see like well how does this go 30:54 and then they they they get input from 30:56 their from their communities and they 30:58 improve the game over time they take the 31:00 bugs out um and they become fully baked 31:02 and brands aren't comfortable with like 31:04 having halfbaked stuff out there. 31:07 >> And the other thing I see is they're 31:09 also not used to the speed. 31:11 >> So like every once in a while I'll see a 31:13 contract between a brand and a developer 31:15 and the brand says, "Well, before you 31:17 can, you know, make any updates with our 31:19 IP, our characters or whatnot, we have 31:21 to have approval and we need uh 14 31:23 business days before we approve." I'm 31:25 like, "4 business days? The whole genre 31:28 is going to be gone by that time." 31:29 Right. 31:29 >> We the game would be done in those 10 31:31 days. 31:32 >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so, um, you 31:35 know, I think I think brands are 31:37 starting to get a little bit more wise, 31:39 but it's just not how they're used to 31:42 doing things, and I think they're still 31:44 getting used to this new new reality. 31:46 But I didn't exactly address your 31:48 question, and your and your question 31:50 was, 31:51 >> how is it that a pirated game can be up, 31:55 it gets DMCAD, and then the next day 31:57 there's another one, and that one stays 31:59 up? And the answer is that that's the 32:01 law and that's the system which is the 32:04 onus is on the is on the brand to submit 32:06 DMCA notices and not on the platforms. 32:09 The platform 32:10 >> the incentive for the platform is to do 32:12 nothing because the more stuff that's up 32:14 there the better for them and they're 32:16 not liable platforms aren't liable for 32:19 UGC. Yeah, that's the law. They're not 32:21 responsible for the stuff that their 32:22 users create. And so they're kind of 32:24 like, hey, it's not our fault. Like if 32:26 you want it down, send us a DMCA. And 32:29 so, you know, companies often, you know, 32:31 what they do is they hire other 32:33 companies to just submit DMCAs over and 32:36 over and over again. But if they're not 32:37 doing that, games, 32:40 you know, keep proliferating. 32:41 >> Yeah. And and I always assume just like 32:43 why why would Squid Games until now that 32:46 they they're making their own um IP and 32:48 in the game, it's free press. Like 32:50 they're not they're just going to keep 32:51 it up there. And sure, that game could 32:53 be making a few million dollars here and 32:54 there, but to them that's, you know, 32:56 that's not even worth the legal fees. 32:57 sometime you know what whatever it is 32:59 sometimes. So yeah, no, very good 33:02 answer. And I was actually just gonna a 33:05 ask you this is about like the discovery 33:07 page on Fortnite and and around like are 33:10 they legally responsible for promoting 33:12 stolen content, right? And you kind of 33:14 answered it a little bit, but 33:15 >> yeah. So this is like a very 33:18 >> kind of topical and hot issue in the 33:21 law. 33:22 >> So platforms 33:24 have immunity for the stuff that their 33:27 users put on it. Okay? Unless the 33:30 platform is doing something to actively 33:35 promote it. 33:36 >> Okay, 33:36 >> there are cases about algorithms. Do 33:40 algorithms constitute active promotion? 33:43 So far, the court cases have said in 33:46 interest in those specific instances, 33:48 no. It was not enough. It was not a 33:50 strong enough hand by the platform to 33:53 make the platform liable. 33:55 >> Yeah. So those automated algorithms at 33:57 least for now are okay. There probably 34:00 will be a case someday where some 34:02 platform is held to have had too strong 34:05 of a hand in making decisions about what 34:08 to promote and what to um not to 34:11 promote. 34:12 >> But so far the law seems to be that if 34:14 you have some type of neutral algorithm 34:18 then the platform is not responsible. 34:21 Now what's a neutral algorithm? I mean 34:22 that's that's a whole other thing. Yeah. 34:26 No, that that's crazy. So, I mean, you 34:27 kind of just sp I I just thought of this 34:29 and I don't even know this this is this 34:31 is true, but it kind of makes some sense 34:33 is so Epic 34:35 early on or early on probably before UFN 34:39 came out, they would add like um they 34:42 would do different contests or do 34:44 different promotional things for some of 34:45 the top games and like give you special 34:47 XP or items you could unlock if you went 34:49 and played a creative game. They were 34:51 just trying to push people to try out 34:52 creative, right? It was it was great 34:54 great for everyone. It was cool, but 34:55 they kind of stopped doing all of that. 34:57 And I'm wondering if, you know, and 34:59 maybe not, but maybe there is some legal 35:02 things around that where because they're 35:05 technically promoting those those games, 35:08 right? Um 35:08 >> Yeah, it certainly looks like it 35:10 certainly looks like encouragement. 35:11 >> Yeah. Exa Exactly. So, and and then 35:13 there's the other side too of like Epic 35:15 picks. So, they have there's a curated 35:17 row that Epic will choose every week. a 35:20 few maps that get to play play up there. 35:23 So, I'm wondering and it's long Q times 35:25 to get in there as well, but there's 35:27 probably a lot of might be legal legal 35:29 queue times, right? Cuz I I guess they 35:32 have to really think about that. 35:34 >> Imagine they're not picking they're not 35:35 picking games that have Mickey Mouse in 35:37 them, right? 35:38 >> Oh, no, no, no. And that and and and I 35:40 will say this, they're definitely been 35:42 cracking down a lot more and they're 35:43 really pushing more of the innovative 35:45 games and things that you really haven't 35:46 seen before. I will say some sometimes 35:48 you'll see a red verse blue in there. 35:50 So, you know, however that that we don't 35:52 none of us really know how it's all done 35:54 and picked. But anyway, it's just we 35:56 we're on the outside blaming Epic for 35:58 everything or saying this or that and 36:00 and a lot of times there's there's other 36:02 reasons or factors which this is any 36:04 business anything that that goes into 36:06 it, but like there's other reasons why 36:08 we just may never know. But anyway, and 36:10 again, this is just me speculating. I I 36:12 don't know anything. But uh very very 36:15 interesting. Yeah, I it's all it's all 36:17 really super interesting super 36:19 interesting issues. And 36:20 >> you know, the other thing that can't be 36:22 underestimated with platforms is on the 36:25 one hand being huge is they're giant 36:27 lawsuit targets and they get sued all 36:29 the time. All the time. I mean, I get 36:31 contacted constantly to ask if I'll be a 36:34 lawyer for like a a lawsuit, an 36:36 addiction lawsuit against Epic or 36:38 Roblox, which by the way, I don't take 36:40 those. 36:41 >> Yeah. 36:43 That means they've lost some of them. I 36:45 mean, I think Epic had to pay big money. 36:47 >> No, no. For So, the the video game 36:50 addiction lawsuits, let's just step back 36:52 for a second. Let's talk about Let's 36:53 talk about video game addiction 36:54 lawsuits. Okay. 36:55 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 36:56 >> Plaintiff lawyers have been trying to 36:58 steal playbook, the playbook that they 37:01 used for tobacco litigation. So, 37:04 >> you know, 20 years ago, there were 37:06 lawsuits all around the country against 37:08 tobacco companies, basically saying, 37:10 "Your products were addictive and 37:12 they've made us sick and you're 37:14 responsible for that." So, plaintiff 37:15 lawyers have basically tried to take the 37:17 same tasks and apply that to video games 37:20 and say, "You are intentionally making 37:22 your video games addictive so that 37:24 people keep playing them." 37:26 >> Yeah. So far, there have been one or two 37:29 cases that I know of where the courts 37:31 have kicked those lawsuits out and said, 37:34 "No, those lawsuits have no merit." 37:36 >> Yeah. 37:37 >> You lose. And so, the platforms have 37:39 won. Those lawsuits are still now pro 37:41 they're still kind of being filed all 37:43 around the country, but more and more 37:45 people are going to point to those first 37:47 two ones where they've lost and say, 37:48 "Hey, they lost in in in Illinois. They 37:51 should lose in California, too." 37:53 >> Yeah. And so it'll probably take one or 37:56 two more bad rulings for the plaintiffs, 37:59 you know, pro platform before those 38:01 lawsuits go away. 38:02 >> Okay. Interesting. And sorry, let me let 38:04 me correct myself. What I think what it 38:06 was, it was around the item shop and I 38:08 don't know if it was 38:10 around buttons or how it was set up, but 38:13 there was something about like people it 38:15 made it easier for people to buy 38:16 something. There was some lawsuit around 38:18 that and I think they lost. Yeah. 38:20 >> Epic loss had to pay money for that. 38:21 Yeah, pay back your money on that. 38:23 >> Yeah, that's different. Um, what what 38:25 I've been working on with some of my 38:26 clients now is there's a lot of loot box 38:28 disputes. 38:29 >> Like, so obviously you all know what a 38:32 loot box is, right? 38:33 >> For sure. I mean, we don't we can't 38:34 really do that. You just kind of, but 38:37 it's Yeah. Yeah. 38:38 >> Yeah. So, 38:39 >> definitely Roblox though. Yeah. 38:40 >> Yeah. So, you know what video game 38:43 lawyers say is a loot box is kind of 38:46 like buying a pack of baseball cards. 38:49 it's $2 and you have 10 cards and you 38:52 hope that you get something good. 38:53 Whereas a plaintist lawyers try to say 38:55 no, it's more like gambling, right? And 38:58 there are certain things that you that 38:59 you need to do on your loot boxes to at 39:02 least insulate yourself from these 39:03 gambling claims like putting the odds 39:06 and putting the cost of the goods on the 39:08 same screen of as the loot box. 39:10 >> Interesting. That that's good to know 39:12 cuz look, Call of Duty, I spent 39:15 thousands of dollars on loot boxes. They 39:18 got me and it did feel like gambling. 39:21 >> Yeah. Well, I mean, 39:23 >> I'm on I'm on the I'm my clients are the 39:25 game developers, so you know my 39:26 position. 39:27 >> And I'm not even try for sure. I'm Look, 39:29 I'm same same, right? I'm playing 39:31 devil's advocate here. 39:33 >> Yeah. 39:33 >> But and again, maybe they they're I 39:36 wonder what their algorithm or whatever 39:37 their their odds were on their on on 39:40 Call of Duty. They may have fixed it, 39:41 but 39:41 >> they didn't show it. They didn't show it 39:43 when you were playing. 39:44 >> I don't know if they I don't think they 39:45 did. This was Black Ops 3. I even made a 39:48 video and I I mean I spent that I mean I 39:50 spent stupid money on on some of those 39:52 things but I wanted to get every I 39:54 everything every 39:55 >> Hey, you should contacted Plus Lawyer. 39:57 Maybe it's not too late. 39:58 >> Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. I got I got 39:59 video so I got proof. No. Um look, I'm 40:02 an adult. I know what I was getting 40:03 into. 40:04 >> Yeah. 40:05 >> But yeah. No, that's fascinating. Thank 40:07 you. Thank you, Adam. So, you did kind 40:09 of just mention like uh you know once 40:12 big brands decide to take legal action, 40:14 what's the reality, right? 40:15 >> Yeah. Yeah. So these big platforms, 40:17 they've got a lot of money. They're you 40:20 lawyers call that a deep pocket, right? 40:21 Because when you win a lawsuit, if the 40:24 if the party doesn't have money to pay, 40:25 then what's the point? Okay. Yeah. So 40:28 these are deep pockets. You know, 40:29 they've got the money to pay. The 40:31 downside is that if you sue them, they 40:33 have an army of lawyers and they are not 40:36 going to settle because they don't want 40:38 to set a precedent that they're an easy 40:39 target. And so, you know, if you are 40:42 going to bring a suit against them, you 40:44 you know, you really have to be in it 40:46 for the long haul and you have to have 40:47 sufficient support in order to to to 40:50 make it go. 40:52 >> So, on piggybacking on that, let's let's 40:54 just say for instance, we talked about 40:55 Nintendo and Disney. What if what if 40:57 they did sue a a creator? 40:59 >> So, if you get sued what happens 41:02 >> if if you're a creator and you get sued 41:04 by Nintendo or Disney, you have 41:06 essentially two options. Okay? Now, 41:09 assuming you're guilty of what they said 41:11 that you've done, you go to them with 41:13 your lawyer and you say, "I made a 41:16 mistake. We're sorry." Like, "Here's how 41:18 much money we made. I don't have I don't 41:21 have a pot to piss in. If you win, I'm 41:23 going to declare bankruptcy and you're 41:24 not going to get anything anyways. I'm 41:26 sorry. I won't do it again. Can we 41:27 please settle?" You know, don't please 41:30 don't ruin me. And, you know, most most 41:32 big companies, they're, you know, 41:34 ultimately they're making a business 41:36 decision, right? And so if they can say, 41:38 "Okay, the guy's learned his lesson. 41:40 We're going to get a little bit of 41:41 money, make him feel some pain, we'll 41:42 settle and move on." They're not going 41:44 to spend three years litigating against 41:46 you um to collect nothing. Right? 41:50 >> If you're if you're not guilty of what's 41:53 alleged, you're in a rough spot because 41:55 you probably don't have enough money to 41:58 defend the to defend the lawsuit. Yeah. 42:00 So the alternative is to go to the 42:02 lawyers, explain to them why what you 42:06 did was okay, and hope that you can 42:09 come. They know obviously that you don't 42:11 have the the juice to like make it all 42:14 the way, but hope that you can present a 42:16 package that's kind of a win-win for 42:19 everybody. You know, we didn't do 42:21 anything wrong, but how about we do it 42:23 like this in the future or we'll make 42:25 these tweaks. Would this work for you? 42:27 Everybody can go on and and and try to 42:29 make it a win-win. Okay. No, that great 42:31 answer. Yeah, I I kind of wanted to know 42:33 that as well, like what's that proc 42:34 what's that look like? But, um, very 42:36 good point. I mean, very little people 42:38 can defend themselves against those big 42:40 companies. And look, I even, you know, I 42:42 I used to work for BP Exploration. Same 42:45 thing. There's been 42:48 there was lawsuits going on um with BP 42:51 because they like changed a retirement 42:53 fund for certain people and they got way 42:56 less than they they more. Anyway, they 42:59 actually lost the case eventually, but 43:02 what they did is they pul by the time it 43:04 was all done and settled and all that, 43:06 most of the people were dead. Like they 43:07 couldn't even get get their money, you 43:09 know what I mean? And that's just they 43:10 that's what they do. And and the point 43:12 of you saying it's more or less they 43:14 don't want to set a precedent, 43:16 >> too. So, it is worth for them to fight 43:18 and spend whatever it is. But anyway, 43:20 it's just 43:22 >> Yeah. It's everywhere. 43:24 >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, when people complain 43:25 to me about the legal system, I say, 43:27 hey, like take it up with your 43:28 legislature. Like, it is what it is. 43:31 Like, it's not my 43:32 >> For sure. It's like a car mechanic, you 43:34 know? Hey, take it up with my or 43:36 whoever, you know, your car. Like, 43:38 >> exactly. 43:38 >> I'm here to fix it, man. I don't know. 43:41 >> Exactly. Exactly. 43:43 >> So, let's kind of shift things over to 43:44 like ownership and like around actual 43:47 game ideas and mechanics. This is a big 43:49 question and topic. Can you protect an 43:51 original gameplay mechanic or a mode in 43:54 Fortnite which we kind of just have a 43:57 case that says no almost but go ahead. 43:59 Yeah. 43:59 >> So that's a really interesting question 44:02 and the answer is I am not sure. So, 44:05 >> okay. 44:06 >> So, if you were looking at whether you 44:08 can copyright a particular mechanic or 44:10 code, I would need to look first at kind 44:12 of the UEFN terms of service, right? 44:16 Because those are going to say what they 44:18 own and what you own. 44:20 >> And there's likely to be some amount of 44:23 they, you know, it might say, hey, 44:25 anything you make on here we own 44:26 anyways. Like it's it's our platform, 44:29 it's our code, we own it all. It's 44:30 likely to say that there's there's 44:32 probably some line there, but the answer 44:34 is I just don't I don't know off the top 44:35 of my head. 44:36 >> No, that and that's fine. I just, you 44:38 know, I think like you say is like case 44:41 by case probably and and everything. And 44:43 so on that line, what about what about 44:45 my name of my game? So like red verse 44:48 blue, let's not use that example. That 44:49 was done before and after it's been 44:52 whatever. But like say I make, you know, 44:55 the most advanced 44:57 um 44:59 I'm trying to think one v one. This is a 45:02 bad example, but I'm just trying to 45:03 think of a propri not a proprietary 45:04 name, but just like uh like the most I 45:07 don't know 45:08 >> this what you're asking is about brand 45:11 protection. 45:12 >> Yeah. 45:12 >> Okay. And this is something that small 45:14 business owners have been dealing with 45:17 for decades, whether they're opening a 45:20 brickandmortar store or a website or a 45:24 studio or your game. Okay? Your brand is 45:27 protected by trademark law. Okay? 45:30 Trademark law. So the name, what you 45:32 decide to name your company, whether 45:34 it's, you know, a shoe store or a video 45:37 game or the name of your studio, that is 45:40 governed by trademark law. Okay. Tra 45:43 under trademark law certain words can be 45:46 trademarked that gives you exclusive 45:48 right to use it and certain things 45:50 can't. So if you use a descriptive title 45:55 in general just generally that cannot be 45:58 protected. So for example 46:00 >> if I have a store that sells groceries 46:03 and I call it the grocery store. 46:05 >> Yeah. 46:06 >> I can't I can't trademark that and 46:08 prevent other people from using the 46:10 grocery store. If I have a game that's 46:12 like a onev one shooter game and it's 46:14 called 1v one shooter, I can't get a 46:17 trademark over that. Okay. 46:20 >> But if I use a madeup word like 46:22 Starbucks or my coffee company, I can 46:25 prevent other people from having a 46:27 coffee company called Starbucks. And now 46:30 my brand Starbucks has a special meaning 46:33 that everybody associates it with. So, 46:35 if you pick a fanciful name for your 46:38 game, you know, you know, if you call it 46:40 like, you know, can't think of any good 46:41 examples off my head. 46:42 >> I know. Me either. 46:44 >> Creative juice. Okay. 46:45 >> Yeah, there you go. Yeah. 46:47 >> Creative juice. Creative juice. There's 46:49 doesn't describe a podcast. It doesn't 46:53 even obviously describe what you're 46:54 talking about. 46:55 >> Yeah. But it's a unique, fanciful name 46:58 that unless it's been used before, 47:01 probably you could trademark and nobody 47:03 else could have a podcast called 47:05 Creative Juice. And the benefit for you 47:07 is that when you go to the Apple store, 47:09 if somebody else has a podcast called 47:11 Creative Juice, you can get Apple to 47:13 take it down so you're the only one. 47:15 Okay? 47:16 >> Um, same with, so I'm going to talk 47:19 about Roblox. Let me give you an example 47:20 of why having a trademark is important. 47:23 Let's say you come up with a popular 47:24 game on Roblox called Steal a Brain Rot. 47:27 Okay. What happened once that game 47:29 became a hit? All sorts of people on 47:31 Fortnite started creating Steel a Brain 47:34 Rot style games. 47:36 >> Yeah. 47:36 >> Steal a Brain Rot is considered a 47:39 trademarkable name. And I actually don't 47:41 know if it's trademarkable or not. The 47:43 owners of Steel Brain Rot 47:47 Fortnite and say, "Take those games down 47:50 because of the name." It's not talking 47:52 about the content of it. The name itself 47:54 protects you. And so there's value in 47:58 having a unique name that nobody else 48:00 can because everyone knows what steal a 48:02 brain rod is now. Everyone knows what 48:03 Grow a Garden is. If those names are 48:05 trademark, you can prevent other people 48:06 from using those names. 48:09 >> No, that that's great. Great. I think 48:11 now I'm thinking of it like Pillars. The 48:12 Pillars. This is a game that got super 48:14 popular. Really easy game loop and 48:16 people are start have since been using 48:18 it and copying it and and I'm wondering 48:20 know I don't know if you got it 48:21 trademarked and if you could do anything 48:22 but yeah I think 48:23 >> or same with the pit the pit, right? 48:25 >> The pit. Yeah. Yeah. 48:26 >> Exactly. If the pit if the if the pit 48:29 can be trademarked that means nobody 48:31 else can call their game the pit. 48:33 >> The pit. 48:34 >> Yeah. And I know that was I know that 48:36 was a very hot dispute for a while. 48:37 >> It was. What if I could Could I call it 48:39 the pit unlimited or ultimate or no? I 48:42 mean it's just like the pit is no longer 48:44 in your title anymore. You no one can 48:45 use it. 48:46 >> In general the standard that is 48:48 evaluated by is will it cause consumers 48:51 confusion about the source of it. Right. 48:54 >> Which Yeah. That's the reason you're 48:55 using the name so people. Yeah. 48:57 >> So that's why I can't have a company 49:00 called Amazon with like four N's. 49:03 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 49:04 >> Because it creates 49:04 >> Google with four 49:06 >> an extra with an extra O. Right. because 49:08 it creates it create or I can't have 49:10 well mine's the Google 49:12 >> the Google. Yeah. Yeah. 49:13 >> Yeah. So, you know, the the reality is 49:15 with the law is what you think is fair 49:18 or what makes common sense is actually 49:20 typically close to what the law is. And 49:22 even if it's not, judges typically want 49:25 to do what's fair and what and want to 49:28 do something that's equitable. Now, 49:30 sometimes their hands are tied and they 49:31 can't do that. But in general, like when 49:33 people come to me and they say, "Well, 49:35 I've got this great technical argument." 49:36 Nobody likes technical arguments. Juries 49:38 don't like it. Judges don't like it. You 49:40 just look like an you know. 49:42 >> Okay. Well, and in the pit though, I 49:45 think the there was it was on Minecraft 49:49 maybe or some I don't don't quote me. It 49:51 was another game had the pit like some 49:53 of the ideas. So, it didn't directly I 49:56 don't think come from that game. So, 49:58 yeah, I'm sure I I don't know what 49:59 happened with all the lawsuit or 50:00 anything. I didn't follow follow it much 50:02 but yeah it'd be interesting kind of 50:04 following on this and and again it's 50:06 just kind of like can creators copyright 50:08 like verse code that can they copyright 50:11 their verse code and then how do 50:13 licensings work when collaborating or 50:15 freelancing with with your code? So if 50:18 somebody wanted you know anyway yeah 50:21 I'll let you answer. 50:22 >> Yeah. So in general software code is 50:24 covered by copyright. 50:26 >> Okay. you if you have software code 50:30 that's unique and copyrightable and it's 50:32 and you copyright it, you can share it 50:34 with somebody else under a license, 50:37 right? You say, "I'm going to let you 50:38 use this, but you have to give me you 50:41 have to pay me a certain amount of money 50:42 for that, right?" That's how licenses 50:44 work. 50:44 >> So, that it is possible. Okay, that 50:46 that's good to know. I think, you know, 50:47 that was a question from the community. 50:49 I don't I don't know if verse code is 50:51 specifically copyrightable because I 50:52 don't know what what what UEFN's terms 50:55 of use are. But in general, software 50:58 code is protected by copyright. 51:00 >> Yeah, I mean it is I 51:02 >> here. Let me let me let me back up for a 51:04 second because I think this will be I 51:05 think this will be helpful for your for 51:07 your listeners. 51:08 >> Okay, 51:09 >> there are basically four sources of law 51:12 that protect your games. The first is 51:14 trademark law that protects the name of 51:17 your game and the name of your studio 51:18 and and possibly your logos. The second 51:21 is copyright law. Copyright law protects 51:24 the unique expression of your games. 51:27 Again, concepts aren't copyrightable, 51:29 but the games are. The example that I 51:31 give is you can't copyright the game of 51:34 chess, okay? The way it's played. But 51:36 you can make really unique figurines on 51:39 the chessboard that are copyrightable. 51:41 So I could have a Simpsons a copyrighted 51:43 Simpsons chess set where Marge is the 51:46 queen and Homer is the king and I can 51:48 those pieces can be copyrightable but 51:50 you can't copy the the the chess set. 51:52 It's got to be unique. 51:53 >> I see. 51:53 >> The third is trade secret law. Okay. 51:56 Trade secret law protects um your unique 52:00 secret valuable things. code. Your 52:03 software code can be covered by trade 52:06 secret law, but you have to protect it 52:08 and keep it secret. Things that people 52:10 can see like your UI, your UX, that's 52:13 not covered by trade secret. It's the 52:14 stuff under the It's the stuff under the 52:16 hood. 52:16 >> Okay? 52:17 >> And the fourth is contract law. Those 52:19 are your contracts that you have with 52:21 people related to your game that you can 52:23 enforce to protect your rights. So, 52:25 those are kind of that's that's the 52:26 that's the table. Trademark, copyright, 52:29 trade secrets, and contracts. And those 52:31 are the tools that that creators should 52:33 use to protect their games. 52:36 >> Amazing. No, thank you for sharing that. 52:37 That's very very good for creators to 52:39 hear. So, um I want to kind of talk 52:42 business a little bit. So, so say you're 52:44 selling a game or an IP, right? What are 52:47 like the key things to include when 52:49 selling ownership or game IP? We're 52:51 starting to see that some games are 52:53 starting to get acquired and things like 52:54 that. And so, yeah, 52:55 >> I do I do a ton of this work. 52:57 >> Okay. a ton of I do a ton of buying and 53:00 selling video games and interest in 53:02 video games. Um, without getting too 53:06 complicated, there are a few very 53:08 important things. The first is when and 53:11 how are you going to get paid and how 53:12 much, right? 53:13 >> Yeah, 53:13 >> everyone wants to know, well, how much 53:14 am I going to get paid? But what I would 53:16 encourage creators to think about is 53:18 what happens if they don't pay me, okay? 53:21 How am I going to force them to pay me? 53:24 And so the way you do that is through 53:27 law and venue provisions in your 53:30 contract. So 53:31 >> people come to me and say, "Hey, I had a 53:33 contract to sell my game, $50,000, and I 53:36 gave him my game, but he didn't pay me." 53:38 And I say, "Oh, okay. Well, where are 53:39 you located?" "Well, I'm in Michigan." 53:41 Like, "Well, where's the where's the 53:42 buyer located?" He's in Saudi Arabia. 53:45 >> I'm like, "Okay, well, how the heck am I 53:47 gonna like sue somebody in Saudi Arabia 53:50 and get money from them?" 53:51 >> Yeah. 53:52 because the cost of doing that is 53:54 astronomical. Or maybe they say, "Oh, I 53:57 only know his discord name. I don't know 53:59 where he is, you know, and you can 54:01 unmask people, but it is very very 54:04 expensive and timeconuming. And the 54:05 amount of money at stake has to be like 54:07 millions of dollars in order for it to 54:09 to but there is a way to do this. And 54:12 the way that I recommend is through 54:14 arbitration clauses and venue 54:16 provisions. So this person in Saudi 54:18 Arabia, had they signed a contract that 54:21 said in the event of a dispute, there's 54:23 going to be arbitration in Portland 54:25 under Oregon law, then I say, "Okay, 54:27 great. We can commence an arbitration. 54:29 If he doesn't show up, you win by 54:31 default. You don't have to worry about 54:33 like tracking this person down or any of 54:35 that other stuff. It's cheap. It's 54:36 fast." Now, there might be some 54:38 collection issues, but it's at least if 54:40 you get a judgment against him, you can 54:42 always go to Roblox or to Fortnite and 54:44 then seize them. you know, basically 54:47 garnish the money out of their accounts. 54:48 So, what you've done is by contract, 54:51 you've created a and convenient forum in 54:54 order to enforce your contract. Without 54:57 that, it's there's it's not good advice. 55:00 Great advice. I want to piggyback kind 55:02 of on this a little little different, 55:03 but like so you make a game, right, or 55:06 um and you're under contract and you 55:08 make it for them, but then they just 55:10 totally ghost you, right? So, like 55:12 you're hired to make them a game, but 55:13 then they just Yeah. Like I said, ghost 55:16 you like h like how do you fight back? 55:18 Is there anything you can do? 55:19 >> Yeah. So, in your example, I'm the one 55:21 who's making the game and they didn't 55:23 pay me. Is that is that the deal? 55:25 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I hired you to make 55:28 me a game and you know, whatever 55:31 whatever happened, who knows? I just 55:32 stopped talking to you. I don't want I 55:34 don't want anymore. 55:35 >> Again, it's it's a very similar thing. 55:37 And that's the importance of the 55:38 contract for the person doing the work, 55:41 which is I need to know who is paying me 55:44 and how am I going to collect that money 55:45 if they disappear again. Because if the 55:48 person is in Lithuania and you're in 55:50 California and they owe you, you know, 55:52 10 grand, that's a lot of money to you, 55:54 but but it's going to be virtually 55:56 impossible to ever collect. 55:58 >> Yeah. 55:58 >> But if you have an arbitration provision 56:00 that says like, hey, they have to come 56:01 to your backyard, that's going to make 56:03 it that's going to give you a lot more 56:04 leverage in that dispute. 56:06 >> Got it. Got it. And that's just 56:07 important to I think I think a lot of 56:08 these people are so new they don't 56:09 understand like they just they like you 56:11 need to get in these contracts. You got 56:13 to call Adam. 56:14 >> The other thing that I encourage people 56:15 to think about when they're buying and 56:17 selling video games is people come to me 56:19 and say, "Oh, well I've got 20% equity 56:22 in this game. Legally, there's no such 56:24 thing as equity in a game." Okay, that's 56:26 not a thing. What I try to get people to 56:28 think about are they're actually common 56:30 sense questions, which is what revenue 56:32 share are you gonna get from the game? M 56:35 >> okay is it 20% if it is say I get 20% 56:38 revenue share you don't have to use 56:40 fancy legal language plain language is 56:42 actually the best two who gets to make 56:44 the decisions about the game right you 56:46 own when you have 20% equity in the game 56:49 that doesn't say well what if you and 56:51 the other guy you know he wants to you 56:54 know add loot boxes and you don't well 56:56 who gets to decide right so put in your 56:58 contract like what h who gets to make 57:00 the decisions or what happens if we have 57:02 a dispute you know This sounds funny, 57:05 but sometimes when you have a twoerson 57:07 company, I'll put into the contract in 57:09 event of a dispute, they flip a coin, 57:12 right? And you know, and and um because 57:15 it's a fast, cheap way to to resolve a a 57:18 dispute, you know, 57:19 >> see then then you're just getting away 57:21 from the your team essentially from 57:23 getting into a dispute. You know, you 57:25 solve it with a flip. That's that's 57:27 smart. 57:28 >> Exactly. So, who gets So, what revenue 57:30 do you get? who gets to get, you know, 57:32 uh, who gets to make the decisions and 57:34 also IP, who owns the IP and what do you 57:38 get to do with it? So, if the IP is 57:41 co-owned, you got to think about, well, 57:43 what happens if I make a SQL on my own? 57:46 Who gets the revenue from that? Do we 57:48 split it the same amount? Like, what 57:50 happens, for example, if I've got, you 57:52 know, let's just use Red Versus Blue, 57:54 right? I I make I co-own Red Versus Blue 57:57 and I decide to make Red Versus Blue 2. 58:00 It's a new game. Everyone goes over to 58:01 Red Versus Blue 2 and I say to the other 58:04 guy like, "Hey, this is my game, not 58:06 yours, 58:07 >> right now. There there is copyright law 58:09 that covers that, but what would be 58:10 better is an agreement of like, hey, 58:13 let's agree that neither of us are going 58:15 to make any sequels unless we both agree 58:18 to it. That way, we're not reducing the, 58:21 you know, the viability of our original 58:24 game. And if we do make a sequel, let's 58:26 agree in advance of who gets what 58:28 revenue from it, right? 58:30 >> Yep. 58:31 >> And then the other thing that comes up a 58:32 lot is people do revenue revenue share 58:35 agreements in exchange for work, right? 58:38 So 58:39 >> I co-own a game and I'm going to be in 58:41 charge of marketing and the other guy's 58:43 going to be in charge of development and 58:44 we're going to split it 50/50. And guess 58:46 what? The game is blown up. It's making 58:47 a million bucks a month and this is 58:49 going on for six months and now I don't 58:51 feel like marketing it so much. 58:52 >> Yeah. 58:53 >> Right. And so now I'm just I'm not 58:56 marketing it, but I'm still collecting 58:58 my 50%. And the other guy's like, "What 58:59 the heck, man? Part of your 50% is that 59:02 you have to do the marketing work." But 59:04 there's nothing in any agreement that 59:05 says how much marketing work I have to 59:08 do. You know, do I have to do 40 hours a 59:11 week? Do I have to do five hours a week? 59:13 It's just like, well, I'm doing 59:14 marketing, right? 59:15 >> Yeah. 59:16 >> And so more of that you can address 59:18 upfront, the better. 59:20 >> That makes sense. No, makes sense. But 59:23 yeah, a lot of no one thinks of that. 59:24 You never get to that point until it's 59:26 too late. 59:27 >> Yeah. The the other thing too is if I'm 59:29 getting paid in a revenue share, so I 59:32 get 10% in exchange for doing 59:34 development work. Well, what happens if 59:36 I get fired or I quit? Do I continue to 59:38 get that 10% forever? 59:41 >> It's almost never addressed in the 59:43 contracts. the developer always thinks 59:45 that he gets it forever and the game 59:48 owner always thinks he only gets it for 59:50 as long as he's actually doing work. And 59:52 so you need to specify that in the 59:55 contract of like, well, what happens if 59:56 I quit? Or even worse, let's say the 59:58 game is not released 1:00:00 >> and I'm I'm coding it and for 10%. It it 1:00:03 gets released and a month later I get 1:00:05 fired, right? Yeah. 1:00:06 >> Well, and they say, "Well, sorry. You're 1:00:08 not working anymore." But you're like, 1:00:09 "Well, I did six months of unpaid work 1:00:12 in expectation that I was going to get 1:00:13 this 10% forever." So, you should say 1:00:16 that in your contract. What happens if I 1:00:18 get fired? You know, maybe if I get 1:00:19 fired, I'm getting 10% forever. Unless I 1:00:22 get fired within six months, in which 1:00:24 case it goes to nothing. Or if I work 1:00:27 for eight months, you know, and then get 1:00:29 fired, then I get it a tail of, you 1:00:32 know, five or six months of or whatever. 1:00:34 It can be done however you want it. But 1:00:35 the important thing is is that if it's 1:00:37 written down, it makes it a lot easier 1:00:39 for a lawyer to come in later and help 1:00:41 you enforce your rights. 1:00:42 >> Yeah. No, great points, man. People 1:00:45 should be taking notes. So, we talked 1:00:47 about a little bit like cross country 1:00:49 sometimes like litigation can be very 1:00:50 very hard. I kind of want to talk about 1:00:52 about NDAs and contracts that are across 1:00:56 international borders. Can you enforce 1:00:58 them? NDAs, if you're freelance, like 1:01:00 how does that work? So contracts can be 1:01:02 enforced internationally but it's again 1:01:05 what is the in where is what is the 1:01:07 enforcement mechanism and where is the 1:01:10 venue going to be. So if I have an NDA 1:01:12 with somebody and they violate it um 1:01:15 what what are my remedies and what are 1:01:17 my rights and where am I going to where 1:01:19 am I going to go? So, it's really 1:01:21 important that you specify in your 1:01:23 contract where we're going, especially 1:01:25 internationally, where are we going to 1:01:27 resolve this? Because what you don't 1:01:29 want to do is have a fight where, you 1:01:32 know, the person is in, you're in 1:01:34 Montana and they're in Spain and you 1:01:36 file suit against them in Montana and 1:01:38 then they say, "No, you're supposed to 1:01:40 bring the suit in Spain." and they filed 1:01:42 a lawsuit in Spain and now you guys are 1:01:45 you're just wasting money on attorney's 1:01:47 fees and you're not actually even 1:01:48 talking and pro you're talking about 1:01:50 you're arguing about process. Yeah. 1:01:52 >> With and you're not even talking about 1:01:53 the underlying thing. So you try to want 1:01:55 to get all that process stuff cleared up 1:01:57 in advance with with agreements. Now 1:02:00 >> okay 1:02:01 >> here's the thing with NDAs in general. 1:02:03 Let's let's even say you've got two 1:02:05 people in California. there's an NDA and 1:02:08 somebody violate and somebody violates 1:02:09 it and somebody comes to me and says hey 1:02:11 I signed an NDA and this guy this guy 1:02:13 violated it and my first question is 1:02:15 going to be well so what yeah why did it 1:02:18 harm you right what did he do now if if 1:02:21 if I'm Coke and I have an NDA with 1:02:24 somebody and they they released the Coke 1:02:26 formula into the onto the internet 1:02:28 that's a big freaking deal okay there's 1:02:30 a lot of harm but if it's just some 1:02:33 random stuff that doesn't really have 1:02:35 any value Anyways, I'm going to say, 1:02:37 "Well, who cares?" Like, 1:02:39 >> and and part of it is in general, you 1:02:42 have to prove damages. Okay? And so, if 1:02:44 there's no harm, the court's going to be 1:02:46 the same way. They're going to say, "Who 1:02:48 cares?" Like, "Why are you here?" It's 1:02:49 going to cost a lot of money to enforce 1:02:51 your rights, so there better be some 1:02:54 legitimate violation that matters. 1:02:57 >> But if there was, there's stuff you can 1:02:58 do about it. 1:02:59 >> Yeah. And I I I think for UGC or for 1:03:03 this platform, for instance, like I had 1:03:04 a game idea, you know what I mean? Or 1:03:07 whatever. Or I I I have the game kind of 1:03:09 halfbaked. It's my it's the MVP and I 1:03:11 want players to come test it, right? Say 1:03:14 say that. And I have them sign NDA cuz 1:03:16 this game whatever it's this is going to 1:03:18 be the next big game. Well, then they 1:03:21 sign it and maybe they go and take my 1:03:23 idea, redo, make the game, and it takes 1:03:25 off. You know what I mean? Is there 1:03:27 something there? 1:03:28 >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean that that what 1:03:31 you're describing is what NDAs are for, 1:03:33 which is I've got a special idea that I 1:03:36 want to share with somebody and I don't 1:03:38 want them to to copy it because I have a 1:03:41 market advantage by being first, 1:03:43 >> right? So after your game is released, 1:03:46 other people can make similar concepts 1:03:48 and do similar things because that's 1:03:50 that information is out there in the 1:03:52 world, but it wouldn't be fair for for 1:03:54 you to show that to them and say, "Look 1:03:56 at my great idea." and then they go home 1:03:58 and they spend the next 48 hours trying 1:04:01 to get out first. 1:04:02 >> Yeah, 1:04:03 >> that that's a legitimate harm and that's 1:04:05 an an NDA can be enforced. But again, 1:04:08 where is it going to be enforced? Do you 1:04:10 know who the person is who signed it? 1:04:13 >> Is it their real name? And also 1:04:15 >> 18. 1:04:15 >> Yeah, we haven't talked about that. Are 1:04:17 they Are they 18? If they're minors, 1:04:19 >> contracts with minors are not 1:04:20 enforceable. You need to have a parent 1:04:22 sign on their behalf. 1:04:24 >> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So that 1:04:26 that happens, I'm sure. 1:04:28 >> Yeah. Oh, I see it all the time. 1:04:30 >> Wild. No, this is seriously this is such 1:04:32 great information. Um, we have a few 1:04:34 more questions left. We're we're 1:04:35 cooking. Um, and again, thank you, Adam. 1:04:38 Um, so this one is another question from 1:04:40 the community. Um, it's definitely a 1:04:43 little relevant for the Fortnite 1:04:44 creators in UGC space, but like what 1:04:46 should creators do if like Fortnite 1:04:48 updates break their game and it causes 1:04:50 them income loss? This this happens. I 1:04:53 mean, probably every update almost, 1:04:55 right? Like is 1:04:57 >> here's what they should do. They should 1:04:59 fix the game as fast as possible. 1:05:02 >> You're right. And and most do and and 1:05:04 and but yeah, I'm sure there's probably 1:05:07 something under law and you have to 1:05:08 probably go through Epic's terms of 1:05:09 service or something there. 1:05:11 >> Platforms are they're your money maker. 1:05:13 You don't want to bite the hand that 1:05:15 feeds you. Yeah. 1:05:16 >> Because 1:05:17 >> even if you're right, first of all, 1:05:19 >> it's going to be enormously expensive to 1:05:21 produce to to prosecute it. And second, 1:05:24 they have so many ways that they can 1:05:27 retaliate against you that you don't 1:05:29 even know about and that you'll never be 1:05:31 able to address. For example, let's say 1:05:33 you get in a spiff with you get into a 1:05:35 tiff with Epic about, you know, who 1:05:37 knows what. And guess what? All of a 1:05:40 sudden, your game is not being promoted 1:05:41 in Discovery. Yeah. 1:05:43 >> You know, now you're screwed. 1:05:45 >> Yeah. 1:05:45 >> Right. I mean, or um you're never on 1:05:48 pick any you're never on on pick or you 1:05:51 know, you're not picked for awards or 1:05:52 whatever it is. Like they have so many 1:05:55 ways that they can harm your business. 1:05:57 >> Um DMCA's against you are pro are 1:06:00 processed immediately regardless of, you 1:06:02 know, how strong they you know. So 1:06:04 >> yeah, 1:06:05 >> it's never worth going after the 1:06:07 platform if you're a creator. It's it's 1:06:09 super important as a creator to 1:06:12 especially as you become more successful 1:06:14 to develop a positive relationship with 1:06:16 the platform, 1:06:18 >> with the developer with the developer 1:06:20 relations team because if I'm a creator 1:06:22 and I have a problem, if I know somebody 1:06:24 at Epic or at Roblox that I can pick up 1:06:26 the phone or email them and say, "Hey, 1:06:28 this happened. Can you help me?" That is 1:06:30 so much better than having to go through 1:06:33 um you know basically a bot or a you 1:06:36 know somebody in you know who barely 1:06:38 speaks English on the other side of the 1:06:39 country to try you know AI to try 1:06:41 >> call support your text writing support 1:06:42 and it's from AI bot. 1:06:44 >> Exactly. So I encourage everybody to try 1:06:46 to maintain and develop relationships 1:06:49 within the platform. 1:06:50 >> Great advice. Great advice. Early on you 1:06:53 still see a lot of creators that have 1:06:54 issues or problems and they go straight 1:06:56 to social media, right? and this or that 1:06:58 and this or that and and and just that I 1:07:01 mean I I I I did that kind of early on 1:07:04 too and I don't know I may have 1:07:06 jeopardized some early on relationships 1:07:07 I could have had with but then if you do 1:07:09 have a direct contact or or just the 1:07:12 proper channels like even for for 1:07:14 Fortnite for instance there's a discord 1:07:16 that they they are looking at and you 1:07:17 can voice your concerns or opinions even 1:07:20 don't have a direct contact you know but 1:07:21 no good good point and just anything in 1:07:24 business I think in general at least the 1:07:27 amount of enemies you can make is the 1:07:29 goal, right? I mean, it does just cuz 1:07:31 right now, this year, in five years from 1:07:33 now, doesn't mean that maybe there is 1:07:35 some business you guys can do or 1:07:36 something happens like it's just Yeah, 1:07:38 it's good practice. Honestly, that was a 1:07:40 great tip. 1:07:41 >> Yeah. Thanks. And you know, the other 1:07:43 thing is the platforms want their 1:07:45 creators to be successful. Yeah. 1:07:47 >> Because the more successful the creator 1:07:49 is, the more money it drives to the 1:07:51 platform. They're not intentionally 1:07:53 making things hard for the creators, you 1:07:56 know? Yeah. It could be a mistake on 1:07:58 their end or there could be some reason 1:08:00 that you as a creator don't realize why 1:08:02 they have to do it that way. 1:08:04 >> Yeah. Well, for sure. I mean, and 1:08:06 honestly on that question too, as as I 1:08:08 as a pro top programmer in this space 1:08:10 early on is it's just like when things 1:08:13 broke in your game, it made us better 1:08:15 developers and I've said this on this 1:08:16 podcast, you just I knew five 10 1:08:18 different ways to fix things because of 1:08:20 it. I mean, not to mention, I think it's 1:08:22 still in beta. So, like there's I'm sure 1:08:24 legally there's whatever cover there, 1:08:26 but like it just what what happens is 1:08:29 now when something does break, it 1:08:30 actually benefits me because I know how 1:08:32 to fix it immediately and my game's back 1:08:35 up there. Um, and and the other teams 1:08:38 are still scrambling to try to get get 1:08:39 up there. So the whatever shining a 1:08:41 light on maybe a positive but also it's 1:08:43 it is frustrating and and look if I'm 1:08:45 making lots of money, millions of 1:08:46 dollars and you know update breaks your 1:08:49 game. It's it is really frustrating. So 1:08:50 I I get both sides but 1:08:52 >> yeah for sure. 1:08:53 >> Um okay I want to talk about like 1:08:55 support for small creators now. So not 1:08:57 every creator has a lawyer ready to 1:08:59 call, right? 1:09:00 >> This is one of my favorite topics 1:09:01 actually and one of the reasons why I 1:09:03 love working with with small creators. 1:09:05 >> Amazing. Hey, now you got someone to 1:09:07 call maybe. So, where where can people 1:09:09 turn if they can't like afford one? 1:09:11 >> Okay, 1:09:11 >> afford a lawyer, things like that. 1:09:13 >> Before I say answer that, what I'm going 1:09:15 to what I'm going to say is what I my 1:09:17 advice to small creators is you are 1:09:19 basically a startup company and your 1:09:21 money is best spent developing your game 1:09:24 and working on your project and not 1:09:26 spending it on legal fees. Like you 1:09:29 don't want to have these perfect legal 1:09:31 documents and corporate structures 1:09:32 because most project most startups fail, 1:09:35 right? wait till you get some success 1:09:38 before you really before you really do 1:09:40 it. But there are a couple of exceptions 1:09:42 to that. There's some lowhanging fruit 1:09:44 which has enormous bang for your buck 1:09:47 and that will benefit you enor will 1:09:49 benefit you enormously throughout the 1:09:51 whole process. Okay, the first one we 1:09:53 talked about before which is your name. 1:09:55 When you choose the name of your game or 1:09:57 your studio, Google first and see if 1:10:00 anybody else already has that name. 1:10:02 Okay. And think about whether you can 1:10:04 use a fanciful name that can be 1:10:06 trademarked. And honestly, you can ask 1:10:08 chatbt or Google like you know what are 1:10:12 you know what should I avoid for 1:10:13 trademarks and it'll give you great tips 1:10:14 about like how to choose how to choose a 1:10:16 name or not. It's not very complicated. 1:10:18 So number one be thoughtful about the 1:10:20 name you choose. Number two, and this is 1:10:22 the most important, you need to have 1:10:25 contracts with anybody who is working on 1:10:28 your game that says that either all of 1:10:30 the IP that they create belongs to you 1:10:33 or that it's done under work made for 1:10:35 hire. This is like magic language. If 1:10:38 you don't have these things in your 1:10:40 contract, even if everybody knows that 1:10:42 you're supposed to own it or there was a 1:10:44 handshake or you agreed to it on 1:10:45 Discord, the creator by law of the when 1:10:49 I say the creator, the person building 1:10:51 the game or doing the code or creating 1:10:52 the asset, they are deemed to own what 1:10:55 they create unless they sign something 1:10:58 that says, I am assigning all of my IP 1:11:01 in this to somebody else. The reason why 1:11:03 that matters is if you have a very 1:11:05 successful game and it turns out you 1:11:07 don't have these contracts, the person 1:11:09 that you hired to make it might be 1:11:12 deemed a co-owner of all of the IP. 1:11:15 >> Okay? Or they might be deemed to have 1:11:18 given you an implied license to use it. 1:11:21 Okay? Neither of those things are good 1:11:24 because now you may have an obligation 1:11:27 to either pay them money for your game 1:11:30 going forward or they may assert that 1:11:32 they have control and ownership over 1:11:35 what you're doing. 1:11:36 >> Um, so have these are called an 1:11:40 independent developer contract. I can 1:11:42 write one for you. There's lots of 1:11:44 examples on the internet. It doesn't 1:11:46 have to be complicated. Have this 1:11:48 agreement. And part of the reason why it 1:11:50 matters is, you know, we saw, for 1:11:52 example, Greasy just sold his game to to 1:11:55 a big video game company. 1:11:57 >> Yeah. Gery. 1:11:58 >> Gears. Yeah. Gears sold. 1:11:59 >> So Gears just sold his game. Yeah. Oh, 1:12:01 man. I 1:12:02 >> to Gajun. 1:12:04 >> Okay. So, so for many companies, their 1:12:08 goal is not just to have a successful 1:12:09 game, but is to actually sell the game 1:12:12 to a big company and make a ton of money 1:12:15 >> or to sell pieces of your game to other 1:12:18 people and make a lot of money. It's 1:12:19 kind of like startup companies. The goal 1:12:21 is, I'm going to create something great 1:12:22 and then I'm going to flip it to like 1:12:24 Microsoft or whatever. Before any 1:12:26 company is going to buy your game, 1:12:28 they're going to want to know that you 1:12:30 own the IP. Okay? And if you have all of 1:12:34 these people who worked on your game 1:12:36 that don't have contracts, they're not 1:12:38 going to want to spend much money buying 1:12:40 it because they are afraid that it's 1:12:42 like it's it's almost like having a 1:12:43 cloud on the title of your house. They 1:12:45 don't want to buy a game where there's 1:12:47 all these potential claims that are that 1:12:48 are hanging out there. So again, it's 1:12:51 very easy to do. It's not expensive. 1:12:53 have a independent contractor agreement 1:12:55 with the people that you work for or 1:12:57 work with and the people doing the work 1:12:59 should be happy to do it because that 1:13:01 contract also explains that they get 1:13:04 paid for what they do. So it protects 1:13:06 everybody. 1:13:07 >> Okay. No, makes sense. No, it's 1:13:09 something you definitely should be 1:13:11 thinking about. So stay on this topic 1:13:13 like how do you verify if a lawyer is 1:13:15 legit though before hiring them? 1:13:17 >> Yeah, that that's a great question. So 1:13:20 you know it depends what you're hiring 1:13:21 the lawyer for. 1:13:23 Yeah, 1:13:24 for 1:13:25 >> most of the stuff that that that 1:13:27 creators are doing, what I would 1:13:28 recommend is that you have a video call 1:13:30 with the lawyer and see how much the 1:13:33 lawyer understands about your your work, 1:13:36 right? Does the person know what 1:13:38 Fortnite Creative is? 1:13:39 >> Yeah. 1:13:39 >> Do they know how payments are made? Are 1:13:42 they familiar with the industry? So 1:13:44 that's not law per se, but it makes it a 1:13:47 hell of a lot easier to work with your 1:13:49 lawyer if they understand what if they 1:13:51 understand what your business is, right? 1:13:53 And there are a lot of lawyers out 1:13:54 there. Do you vibe with this person? Do 1:13:57 you trust them? Do you like talking to 1:13:59 them? Those are, you know, you shouldn't 1:14:01 have to work with somebody that you 1:14:02 don't get along with or that you don't 1:14:04 like or that you don't trust. 1:14:06 >> Great answer. And I can attest to this. 1:14:07 Early on when I was starting my 1:14:08 businesses and and stuff, I I got with a 1:14:10 lawyer and he he knew business stuff, 1:14:13 but like he always had to like go look 1:14:14 it up or go ask somebody about specific 1:14:17 game things and I just I always I didn't 1:14:19 have a warm and fuzzy, you know what I 1:14:20 mean? And then on top of that, like I 1:14:22 think you're just leaving yourself in 1:14:23 the wind for certain backend thing or 1:14:26 things they're just not even going to 1:14:27 think about the cover that I mean that 1:14:29 you've mentioned just in this whole in 1:14:31 this podcast that things I know that my 1:14:34 my lawyer didn't know about or or think 1:14:36 about or you know what I mean? So 1:14:38 >> yeah, I think it is really important to 1:14:39 find somebody that you vibe with but 1:14:41 also understands the space. And when you 1:14:44 talk to the lawyer and you interview 1:14:46 them, you should ask them things like, 1:14:47 "How long will it take you to return my 1:14:49 phone call or return my email?" 1:14:52 >> Right? 1:14:53 >> For part of the value that I provide is 1:14:56 is I respond to people immediately when 1:14:58 I can. Sometimes I'm busy, but I like to 1:15:01 respond immediately even with a just 1:15:02 like, "Hey, I got your email. I'll get 1:15:04 back to you in an hour." Because nothing 1:15:05 is more frustrating to me than when I've 1:15:08 hired lawyers for myself when it takes 1:15:10 them a while to respond. And also I know 1:15:12 the speed of of of video game stuff is 1:15:15 they move really fast. 1:15:16 >> Yeah. 1:15:17 >> The second thing is my practice if I'm 1:15:19 in a dispute for example is I share 1:15:22 every single communication that I have 1:15:24 with the opposing council with my 1:15:26 client. And I don't typically send out 1:15:29 anything without my client authorizing 1:15:32 me to send it first. So for example, I 1:15:34 will say I'm going to send this email to 1:15:36 the lawyer. Is this okay? because I want 1:15:38 to make sure that my client is fully 1:15:40 informed and on board with everything 1:15:42 that I'm doing. You know, there's all 1:15:43 sorts of legal um 1:15:46 uh you know, surveys, which is most 1:15:49 clients, they don't know whether or not 1:15:51 their lawyer is doing a good job legally 1:15:53 or not, but what they do know is they 1:15:54 get pissed off if they're not being 1:15:56 communicated with. So, you know, fast 1:15:58 communication 1:16:00 >> is is really important. And then also, 1:16:02 you know, I'm on Discord because that's 1:16:04 where my clients are. They are on 1:16:06 Discord. Dude, that's crazy. I don't 1:16:08 think I've ever met a lawyer on Discord. 1:16:10 That's insane. 1:16:11 >> Yeah, there's a there's a few there's a 1:16:12 few of us. 1:16:13 >> Okay. 1:16:14 >> Yeah. I had to explain to my law firm 1:16:16 what Discord was. I was like, it's kind 1:16:18 of like Slack for kids, you know. Yeah. 1:16:20 Now, you know, it's funny because now 1:16:21 email seems so old and slow now that I'm 1:16:23 on 1:16:24 >> now that I'm on Discord. 1:16:25 >> No, for sure. I mean, it's just direct 1:16:27 messaging. 1:16:28 >> So, I mean, for example, that but but 1:16:30 that's a if if if your lawyer is on 1:16:32 Discord, probably familiar with the 1:16:34 space. Yeah, that there's a good one. 1:16:36 That's that's so funny. Last last 1:16:39 question I got on the on legal talks 1:16:41 before we jump into uh the last few 1:16:43 questions here, but it's around false 1:16:45 DMCA takedowns. Do those ever have 1:16:48 consequences? That that's been happening 1:16:50 on our platform. 1:16:51 >> Yeah, it's it's a scourge. It sucks. 1:16:54 It's 1:16:55 >> Yeah, 1:16:55 >> the the answer is practically no. Okay. 1:16:58 >> Yeah. So in theory, a DMCA that's made 1:17:03 in bad faith can cause there can be 1:17:06 legal liability for that. It's a very 1:17:08 high burden and very very very rare that 1:17:11 it happens. So you know I have had 1:17:14 clients get DMCAs from fake lawyers. So 1:17:18 I had a client I had a client who got a 1:17:20 he he he got a DMCA and he said to me, 1:17:23 "I think this is fake." And I was like, 1:17:25 "This is not a lawyer. What are you 1:17:27 talking about? This is real." He's like, 1:17:28 "No, no. I I looked up the um I looked 1:17:31 up the the URL and it's like newly 1:17:34 registered and I really think this is 1:17:35 and I was like, "Okay, I'll I'll call 1:17:37 the lawyer." So, I looked him up and I 1:17:39 called him and he was like, "No, I did 1:17:40 not send this. 1:17:41 >> You better call Saul." 1:17:42 >> Yeah. It was truly it was truly a 1:17:44 completely fake DMCA. We called the 1:17:47 platform. We called the platform and 1:17:48 explained to them that this was fake and 1:17:50 it wasn't processed. I've also had the 1:17:53 experience of so you know how the DMCA 1:17:56 process works which is you file a DMCA 1:17:58 you submit a DMCA and the opposing party 1:18:00 has an opportunity to submit a counter 1:18:02 notice. If they submit a counter notice 1:18:04 the platform will put the game back up 1:18:06 in about four unless the original 1:18:08 complaining party files a lawsuit. Okay. 1:18:12 >> So I had a case where we submitted a 1:18:13 DMCA we got a counter notice and so I 1:18:16 told my client listen it's going to go 1:18:18 up or you got to file a lawsuit. So, we 1:18:21 filed the lawsuit. I contacted the I I 1:18:24 had the email address for the on the 1:18:26 counter notice and I emailed them. I 1:18:28 said, "Hey, we filed this lawsuit and 1:18:30 they were like, I don't know anything 1:18:31 about this. I did not submit this 1:18:32 counter notice." Okay. They're like, 1:18:34 "That's not me. I've never played this 1:18:36 game. I swear to God this wasn't me." 1:18:38 And you know, yeah, it was a completely 1:18:41 fake counter notice. And so, we went to 1:18:43 the platform and we were like, "Listen, 1:18:45 they said this is fake. we we're going 1:18:47 to dismiss our lawsuit, but you need to 1:18:48 keep the keep the game down. 1:18:50 >> Yeah. 1:18:50 >> And they agreed. Now, this person may 1:18:53 have been lying about the fake counter 1:18:56 notice. 1:18:57 >> Yeah. Just hoping someone would take it 1:18:58 down and not fight it. Yeah. 1:18:59 >> Yeah. I have no idea. But the reality is 1:19:01 that it was actually good for my client 1:19:03 because now we didn't have to deal with 1:19:05 a lawsuit. We got to go straight to the 1:19:07 platform and say, "Hey, this is all, you 1:19:09 know, keep it down." 1:19:10 >> Yeah. Wow. No, this is good. This is 1:19:12 really good information and it's it's 1:19:14 happening a lot to creators especially 1:19:16 just again these are just new creators 1:19:18 they don't understand it probably get 1:19:20 really scared like they don't know know 1:19:22 what to do in this situation and yeah I 1:19:25 don't know that this is kind of sucks 1:19:27 but also 1:19:28 >> yeah it does suck I mean there that 1:19:29 that's the reality it sucks you know the 1:19:32 the system was set up before 1:19:35 UGC 1:19:36 >> so the next question before we wrap up 1:19:38 is what's the one legal mistake you see 1:19:41 creators make over and over. 1:19:43 >> It's no contracts or chat GPT contracts. 1:19:47 >> Sometimes a chat GPT contract is worse 1:19:50 than no contract because it puts all 1:19:52 sorts of wacky stuff in there. 1:19:54 >> Yeah, 1:19:54 >> chat GBT can be a great resource and I 1:19:57 have seen chat GBT contracts where I was 1:19:59 like, "Wow, that looks like as good as 1:20:01 if a lawyer wrote it." But it's really 1:20:03 only as good as the person who's 1:20:05 inputting the prompts knows. So, I would 1:20:08 say if you can get a lawyer to help you 1:20:11 with your independent developer contract 1:20:13 or buying and selling games, I do think 1:20:15 that there's value there. 1:20:16 >> Yeah, great advice. Great advice. And 1:20:18 and if anyone else wants to keep the 1:20:20 conversation going, where can creators 1:20:22 follow you or reach out to you if they 1:20:24 need your help? 1:20:25 >> Yeah, so I'm on Discord at adamstar 1:20:28 lawyer2s. And then that's my social 1:20:30 media for everything. LinkedIn, Twitter, 1:20:33 YouTube, Instagram. I think I'm even on 1:20:36 Tik Tok. It's the same. It should be the 1:20:37 same uh Adam Star lawyer for all of it. 1:20:39 I'm I'm very easy to get in touch with. 1:20:41 >> Amazing. I'll have all those links in 1:20:42 the description so you guys can find 1:20:44 them there. Cool. Adam, look, this was I 1:20:46 think one of the most important podcasts 1:20:49 we've had on this show. You shared an 1:20:51 insane amount of knowledge. Um and yeah, 1:20:54 I wish I could be like the this could be 1:20:56 your intro into UGC. The first thing you 1:20:58 should watch and learn about is is law 1:21:00 around these things. And thank you so 1:21:02 much for all 1:21:03 >> it was a pleasure. This is awesome. and 1:21:04 I really appreciate you um you having 1:21:06 me. 1:21:06 >> Of course. Of course, man. Well, we'll 1:21:09 uh maybe we'll see you on another 1:21:10 episode. We may have to have you come on 1:21:11 again if something really cool comes up 1:21:13 in the community or something. But man, 1:21:14 thank you so much. 1:21:15 >> Absolutely. Anytime. 1:21:17 >> Big thanks for Adam Star for coming on 1:21:19 and breaking down the legal side of 1:21:20 gaming worlds. Make sure to go check him 1:21:22 out. I have all his links in the 1:21:24 description. If you're watching on 1:21:25 YouTube, hit the like button, drop a 1:21:27 comment, and subscribe so you don't miss 1:21:29 the next one. And if you're listening on 1:21:31 any of the podcast apps, please make 1:21:33 sure to leave us a positive rating. It 1:21:35 really helps out a lot. I will see you 1:21:36 in a Fortnite that is 2 weeks. And as 1:21:39 always, don't hate create.