0:00 Today you're going to learn the best 0:02 relationship advice that you will ever 0:04 hear. This is one of the most [music] 0:08 impactful conversations I have ever had 0:11 on this podcast. 0:12 >> Most people who are married would like 0:14 to have a happy marriage. So just like 0:16 most people would like to be in good 0:19 shape, the question is not what do you 0:21 want, it's what are you willing to trade 0:23 for it because you want happiness. The 0:25 majority of marriages end [music] in 0:27 divorce. Over 50% end in divorce. And 0:30 that's just the ones that 0:31 catastrophically failed. Think about how 0:33 many people, they're unhappy. They never 0:36 really become the most authentic version 0:38 of themselves. They stay together for 0:39 the kids or cuz they don't want to give 0:40 away half [music] their things. Every 0:42 marriage ends. It ends in death or 0:44 divorce. Marriage is like [music] the 0:46 lottery. You're probably not going to 0:48 win. But if you win, what you win is so 0:52 fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a 0:54 ticket? Why wouldn't you try? James Ston 0:56 is one of the top divorce attorneys in 0:59 the world. He has had a front row seat 1:01 to the reason why marriages fall apart. 1:04 Today, he'll teach you what those 1:05 mistakes are [music] and convince you 1:08 that a few small changes are the secret 1:11 to creating lasting [music] 1:13 and loving relationships. What are the 1:16 signs 1:17 >> that you are headed for a breakup or for 1:20 divorce? Disconnection is the number one 1:22 cause of divorce, but there's a whole 1:24 bunch of other symptoms that come from 1:26 [music] disconnection that are easy to 1:28 point to and say, "Well, that was the 1:29 cause." But it wasn't the cause. The 1:31 cause was the disconnection. [music] No 1:32 single raindrop was responsible for the 1:34 flood, but the flood's nothing but 1:36 little raindrops. 1:37 >> If you had to save a marriage with one 1:39 [music] thing, what would it be? 1:41 >> In 25 years of practicing matrimonial 1:43 law, what I'd say to you is, 1:47 >> "Hey, it's Mel." Now, before we get into 1:49 this episode with James Ston, which I'm 1:51 telling you is dynamite, like fire. Boy, 1:55 did you pick a winner. My team was 1:57 showing me that 53% of you who are 2:00 watching here on YouTube are not 2:02 subscribed. My goal is to get that 2:04 number down to 50% by the end of this 2:07 year. And so, here's my ask. You love 2:09 supporting people who support you. If 2:11 you're enjoying the content that we're 2:12 producing here on the Mel Robbins 2:14 Podcast, please hit subscribe. It's the 2:16 easiest way for you to say, "Hey, Mel. 2:18 Hey, Mel's team. Thank you. Thank you. 2:20 Thank you." Best way for you to show 2:22 support. And it tells us you love the 2:24 content. You love the guests. And 2:26 speaking of guests that you love, holy 2:29 cow, one of the single best guests we 2:31 have ever had. Thanks for hitting 2:33 subscribe. Now, please help me welcome 2:35 James Ston to the Mel Robbins Podcast. 2:37 James Stton, welcome to the Mel Robbins 2:40 Podcast. 2:40 >> Great to be here. 2:41 >> I have so many questions for you, but 2:43 where I want to start is this. 2:46 How could my life be different if I take 2:49 everything to heart that you're about to 2:51 teach me today and I apply it to my life 2:53 and my relationship? What what what 2:56 could change? 2:57 >> Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, as a 2:59 practicing divorce lawyer for 25 plus 3:00 years, I have a really unique vantage 3:02 point. You know, a lot of relationship 3:04 advice that people get and people give 3:07 it. It's coming from a psychology 3:10 background. It's coming from a a 3:13 hypothetical theoretical background and 3:15 again has tremendous value but it's not 3:18 like in the trenches and it's not this 3:20 really raw candid version cuz I think 3:22 people lie to their therapists all the 3:23 time but they don't lie to their lawyer 3:26 like your doctor and your lawyer are the 3:27 two people you should never lie to under 3:29 any circumstances. Everything we're 3:31 doing is to protect you and everything 3:33 we're saying is subject to privilege. So 3:34 you can tell us the rawhanded truth. And 3:37 I think that's created in me a a unique 3:41 perspective on, you know, like if you 3:43 wanted to figure out how to keep your 3:45 car in good shape, don't talk to the car 3:48 salesman. All they do is deal with new 3:50 cars. Talk to the mechanic. Like talk to 3:52 the person who's seen every way a car 3:54 can break down and we'll say to you, 3:55 "Hey, here's the stress points. Here's 3:57 where I find this model of car tends to 4:00 break and here's how you could shore 4:01 that up and prevent it." So a lot of 4:03 what I try to give people instead of 4:07 like platitudes like oh you need to 4:09 maintain connection with like what does 4:11 that mean? Like I I need to know what 4:13 that means like if I'm trying to fix my 4:15 relationship or keep my relationship on 4:16 track and you say stay connected. Okay. 4:19 Do you mean like a date night or more 4:21 sex or should we go on vacation or 4:23 should I be asking different questions 4:24 when we're having breakfast together or 4:26 should we be having breakfast together? 4:27 Like what what do you mean? Like I need 4:28 practical things because as a lawyer, 4:31 you know, like it doesn't matter what I 4:32 know, it matters what I can prove. 4:34 >> So I don't just have to think in these 4:36 broad ways that, you know, maybe a 4:38 researcher, a psychologist can. I have 4:40 to think, okay, what can demonstrate 4:42 something? What is evidence to support 4:44 what it is that I'm putting out there? I 4:46 think what you could walk out of this 4:47 conversation with is a feeling of I have 4:51 practical, specific things that I can 4:54 now bring to my relationship that aren't 4:56 complicated, that don't require me to 4:58 buy anything. They just require me to 5:00 buy into a task or a routine. And if if 5:04 you can bring that to the table after 5:06 this conversation, I think you'll 5:08 actually see challenges in your 5:10 relationship potentially improve. or if 5:13 you're fortunate enough to be in a place 5:15 where your relationship is strong, 5:17 you'll find yourself kind of maintaining 5:19 that cuz it's a whole lot easier to 5:21 maintain fitness than to let it fall 5:23 apart and then try to get back on track. 5:25 Like those first miles are so hard. And 5:28 that's really what the goal is is to to 5:30 help people by learning from the 5:32 mistakes I've now seen thousands of 5:34 people make just keep their relationship 5:37 in a good place. 5:38 >> I am so excited you're here cuz I don't 5:40 want to make those mistakes. And what's 5:42 interesting about that example of 5:43 fitness is you said it can be easier to 5:46 maintain it. I think it's almost equally 5:49 easy to let it fall off as it is to 5:52 maintain it. 5:53 >> It's really whether or not you 5:56 understand those little levers. 5:58 >> Yeah. when you start to fall off. 6:00 Because just like fitness, there are 6:02 probably areas in your relationship 6:05 right now where you are falling off and 6:08 you don't even realize this is a major 6:11 mistake that will land you in front of 6:14 somebody like you, James. 6:16 >> Yeah. And and and falling feels like 6:17 flying for a little while. 6:18 >> What do you mean? 6:19 >> Like it feels good, you know, like when 6:21 things are sort of coasting and you kind 6:23 of go because there's just so much 6:24 coming at us in the world. And so to go, 6:27 all right, I got my person. I got that 6:29 locked down. I can worry about all this 6:30 other stuff, the kids, work, you know, 6:32 what's going on in the world, everything 6:34 else, cuz I have this. I'm good. I'm 6:36 good. Well, we we have each other. We're 6:37 wearing a ring. We're doing the whole 6:38 thing. Like, we're we're in. We don't 6:39 have to worry about that anymore. And 6:41 meanwhile, like, no, that's that's that 6:44 you got to water that plant. Like, 6:46 that's a that's a relationship that when 6:49 you were looking for it, it was so 6:51 important. And when you found it, you 6:53 were so happy that you found it. You 6:55 know, we make the mistake of thinking 6:57 love is like permanently gifted to us. 6:59 It's loan. Like every marriage ends. It 7:02 ends in death or divorce, but it ends. 7:05 And and it's one of those weird things 7:06 like to say to someone, "I hope it ends 7:08 in death for you." Like, but but it's 7:10 the truth. Like, I hope your marriage 7:11 ends in death because the other way that 7:14 it's going to end is divorce. And the 7:16 majority of marriages end in divorce. 7:18 Over 50% end in divorce. So, and that's 7:21 just the ones that catastrophically 7:23 failed. Like think about how many 7:24 people, you know, succeeded in marriage, 7:27 but you know, they meaning they didn't 7:29 divorce, but they're unhappy. They never 7:32 really become the most authentic version 7:34 of themselves. They stay together for 7:36 the kids or cuz they don't want to give 7:37 away half their things. What is that, 7:39 another 10%, 20%. Now you have something 7:41 that fails 70% of the time. And yet we 7:44 are like, "Let's do it. We got to sign 7:46 people up for this. It's a great thing." 7:47 It's a like even if someone says, "I'm 7:49 getting married." If you were to say, 7:51 "Really?" Why? It would be rude. That's 7:53 a rude question to ask. But meanwhile, 7:55 you're doing something that fails 7:56 roughly 50 to 70% of the time. It's not 7:59 unreasonable to say why. And and I think 8:02 the big issue is, and that's why I I say 8:04 like falling feels like flying for a 8:06 little while until you hit the ground 8:08 because sometimes by the time you 8:10 realize, 8:11 oh, this marriage is not a good place 8:14 anymore, it's real far gone and it's 8:17 real hard to come back, you And that's 8:19 why when people say like, "Oh, what you 8:21 know, what's the number one cause of 8:22 divorce?" It's like disconnection is the 8:24 number one cause of divorce. But there's 8:26 a whole bunch of other symptoms that 8:28 come from disconnection that are easy to 8:30 point to and say, "Well, that was the 8:32 cause." But it wasn't the cause. The 8:33 cause was the disconnection. No single 8:35 raindrop was responsible for the flood. 8:37 But the flood's nothing but little 8:39 raindrops. 8:40 >> Do you believe in marriage? 8:41 >> I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think 8:45 I think that's an individual question. I 8:47 like to look at relationships, romantic 8:49 relationships, as chapters in a long 8:51 book. 8:52 >> And I think like any chapter in a long 8:54 book, you know, there's some chapters 8:56 that are tragic and some chapters that 8:59 are sad and some chapters that are just 9:01 filled with nothing but joy. You know, I 9:03 think Orson Wells said that that um 9:05 whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy 9:07 depends on when you end it, you know. 9:09 And I think a lot of, you know, 9:11 relationship stories that we sell to 9:14 people, romcoms and things like that, 9:16 they're kind of the relationship 9:18 equivalent of pornography. Like they're 9:20 just a stylized version of what actual 9:24 relationships look like, you know, 9:26 without any of the complexity, like with 9:28 just the good part. And I think I think 9:30 marriage I don't think I can learn 9:32 everything I need to know about myself 9:34 from myself. I think I need someone 9:36 who'll see my blind spots. And I think I 9:38 need that person to be someone I can be 9:41 really fearless around. And I think like 9:44 at its core, 9:47 marriage should boil down to to four 9:49 words that I think 9:52 I think are potentially the most 9:53 beautiful words you could say to someone 9:55 and mean or have someone say to you and 9:59 know they're true. And that is you're my 10:02 favorite person. M 10:04 >> like what could be more beautiful than 10:06 being told and knowing like that when 10:08 this person says it they mean it. You're 10:11 my favorite person and to say to someone 10:14 back, "Yeah, you're my favorite person." 10:17 Like what would be better in the world 10:19 than having that, you know? And and so I 10:22 like to think about kind of the end of 10:24 things and then reverse engineer. And to 10:27 me, like at the end of your life, if you 10:31 could look at another person and say, 10:35 "You helped me become the most authentic 10:37 version of myself, and you're still my 10:40 favorite person. 10:42 That's the greatest wedding toast you 10:44 could ever have." Like, that's the 10:45 greatest blessing you could have in your 10:47 life. And I think it'd be the greatest 10:48 asset you could have in your life. But 10:51 having represented cops, teachers, 10:54 firefighters, CEOs, elite athletes, 10:58 celebrities, we are all equally terrible 11:01 at this. [laughter] 11:03 >> What do you wish every couple understood 11:05 before 11:07 they got married? 11:08 >> So, two things and they're 11:09 contradictory. So, I say that out front 11:12 because as as soon as I say it, I I know 11:14 it's going to sound like a 11:14 contradiction, but I think you'll as a 11:16 long long married person, I think you'll 11:19 agree. 11:21 I think they make two contradictory 11:22 mistakes. One is thinking that marrying 11:24 this person will change them. [laughter] 11:27 So, you know, he leaves his socks 11:29 everywhere, but if we get married, he'll 11:30 stop doing that. Or he drinks too much, 11:32 but if we get married to something, you 11:33 know, she's not very fiscally 11:34 responsible, but if we get married, 11:36 she'll, you know, shape up and get that 11:37 together. So, thinking that if you marry 11:40 somebody, they're going to become a 11:42 better version of themselves and they'll 11:43 definitely change. This is not a great 11:45 idea. like this is not a you're not 11:48 buying a depressed company that this 11:50 you're hoping the stock will go up. 11:51 Okay. But the contradictory thing is 11:53 also thinking this person will never 11:55 change that if we get married that it'll 11:58 prevent them from changing. 11:59 >> Oh, I see exactly why these are the same 12:02 thing, 12:02 >> right? Because it's the feeling of hey, 12:04 you know, like this is so good. Like the 12:06 sex is so good and our companionship is 12:08 so good and our conversation is so good 12:10 and our whole vibe together is so good. 12:11 Like if we get married, we're going to 12:13 it's like building a wall around this 12:14 thing and it's going to keep it amazing, 12:16 you know, and that's this is what we 12:18 have to do. We'll shore up all the 12:19 defenses against the world and we'll 12:21 nothing will change. We'll just be happy 12:23 and having sex and having a great just 12:25 like we are right now forever. 12:27 And like that's just ridiculous. Like 12:30 there's nothing there's no way to maybe 12:33 when people died in their 30s and 40s 12:36 that was possible because you had a 12:37 short window of time. But the truth is 12:39 like to say, "Hey, I'm going to be with 12:41 somebody 30, 40, 50 years in this very 12:44 intense intimate relationship and you 12:47 know it'll never change." Like that's 12:49 insane. We're going to our bodies 12:50 change. Our goals change that the 12:53 pressures we're the society around us is 12:55 constantly changing. Technology is 12:56 changing. So, how would you think that a 12:59 contract we sign with the government 13:01 about our relationship is going to 13:04 prevent it from eroding or having any of 13:07 the like natural things that happen to 13:09 our bodies, to our lives, to every other 13:11 relationship we have? 13:12 >> So, is there a better question to ask 13:16 yourself knowing how much change is 13:19 going to hit you? You know what I'm 13:21 saying? So, if you could grab every 13:23 young couple by the shoulders who's in 13:26 that moment where they're like, I think 13:28 this is my person. You're my favorite 13:29 person now 13:31 >> and I'm feeling the pressure or I really 13:33 have always wanted to get married or all 13:35 my friends are getting married or I'm 13:37 the only single one or I've been 13:38 divorced for too long and I want to try 13:40 this. Like, is there a question that you 13:43 wish 13:45 couples or people personally would just 13:46 stop and ask themselves? The true 13:48 question. I think everything is what 13:52 little things can we do to stay 13:54 connected. And I don't think it's that 13:56 hard. Like I think you can dedicate 10 14:00 minutes a week to the upkeep of a 14:02 relationship and stay out of my office a 14:05 lot of the time. Like I genuinely 14:07 believe that if you spent 10 minutes a 14:09 week just saying to your partner, "What 14:12 did I do this week? Tell me three things 14:15 I did this week that made you feel 14:16 loved." 14:18 I think you'd be surprised at the 14:20 answer. Like I think you you think you 14:22 know the answer, but you'd be surprised. 14:25 Like I think if your husband if if you 14:28 if he said to you, "What are three 14:29 things I did this week that made you 14:31 feel loved, the practical actual 14:34 answers, you might not be able to 14:35 predict those. Like he might not have 14:37 been able to guess in advance what they 14:38 are because little things make us feel 14:41 loved. And by the way, if you if you 14:43 have courage and you go into this 14:46 transaction saying, "Hey, we're going to 14:48 not hear this defensively, 14:50 >> like we're going to speak honestly and 14:51 we're going to hear in a non-defensive 14:54 way." 14:55 >> Then you can ask another question, which 14:56 is, "Where did I miss the mark this 14:58 week? What are three things I could have 15:00 done better this week? What were three 15:02 things I did this week that made you 15:03 feel less than loved or less than seen?" 15:06 You can have fun with it and say, "What 15:08 are three things I did this week that 15:10 made you want to have sex with me?" Like 15:11 what were three things this week that I 15:12 did that turned you on? By the way, the 15:14 answers bonkers. Absolutely bonkers. 15:17 Like as a heterosexual man, when I've 15:19 asked that question, it's the weirdest 15:21 things. It's like, oh, you were the dogs 15:23 came in from outside and you were like, 15:25 you know, kind of towling them off and 15:27 the way they were looking at you and 15:28 like that made you want to have sex with 15:30 me. Like here I am. 15:32 >> I'm trying to get eight pack abs and and 15:35 meanwhile this is what makes you like 15:37 like feel. But it really like the things 15:40 that make can I honestly when you said 15:43 what makes you feel I was thinking to 15:44 myself if Chris asked me that 15:46 >> while I was here working he was with his 15:49 friends 15:50 >> skiing 15:52 >> and he took our two dogs and so he spent 15:55 the day you know hiking up the mountain 15:57 and skiing down the dogs were chasing 15:59 him he sent me photos 16:01 >> right 16:02 >> and I felt so loved that he remembered 16:05 me in the middle of that and sent me 16:07 that in the middle of the day 16:08 >> and see and You identify what that 16:12 really was, which it wasn't just the 16:13 thing, it's what's underneath it. 16:15 >> Yes. 16:15 >> Like that he thought, "Oh, this is so 16:18 good. I want to share this with her." 16:20 Yes. 16:20 >> Like, and that's what I mean about 16:21 you're my favorite person. Like, all 16:23 that is 16:24 >> is just staying a little bit connected 16:27 and conscious. Like, what did that cost? 16:29 Nothing. 16:30 >> Cost nothing. And we get so fixated on 16:32 these grand gestures like, you know, oh, 16:35 love is about like these grand I'm going 16:36 to plan a birthday party. I'm going to 16:37 make it huge. And listen, there's value 16:39 in grand gestures, but like daytoday 16:42 things like that, that's the thing. And 16:45 it, by the way, it works in both 16:46 directions. is like, I guarantee there's 16:49 some little thing you do that you may 16:52 not even think is that big of a deal, 16:54 but that's the thing that makes him feel 16:58 deeply connected, valued, seen, 17:01 understood, 17:02 safe, like emotionally and all like even 17:05 just the fact that he's, you know, you 17:07 know, he loves the dogs as much as you 17:10 because the shared connection of things 17:12 you love like whether that's your 17:13 children, whether it's companion 17:15 animals, whether it's an activity, 17:16 Whether it's a friend group, there's 17:18 something about knowing like, oh, this 17:20 person feels this as deeply as I do. 17:23 >> This person feels this depth of love and 17:25 connection for I mean, animals for me is 17:27 a big thing. I'm a dog person, but like 17:29 there's something so beautiful about 17:31 sharing that with someone and knowing, 17:32 oh, it's okay. away cuz this person 17:35 loves the dogs as much as I do and 17:37 panders to them as much as I do and will 17:38 send me photos and will, you know, do 17:40 all the little things that I do when I'm 17:43 out so that that, you know, I know that 17:45 the dogs feel safe and loved to me like 17:47 that that is so easy to just articulate 17:52 to each other and remind each other like 17:54 I don't think it takes the magic away to 17:56 know that and to hear that. Like I think 17:58 if Chris heard you say, "Do you know how 18:02 special that made me feel? Do you know 18:04 how beautiful that was? Like do you know 18:05 how much more that makes me love you and 18:08 feel seen by you when you did that?" 18:10 You'd be like, "I was just taking a 18:12 picture of the dogs." Like, but but 18:14 meanwhile, like it's not the thing. It's 18:15 it's what's underneath. It's what it's 18:17 emblematic of. And I I feel like so many 18:20 of us have so many of those things. 18:23 >> Yeah. But we don't say it. 18:24 >> And and they're good and bad. Like like 18:27 if you're the kind of person like me, I 18:29 like all the dishes out of the sink by 18:31 the end of the day. Like I'm very and I 18:32 like doing dishes cuz unlike the 18:33 practice of law, there's like a middle 18:35 and end and you're done. And it's like, 18:36 oh, everything's clean. Whereas with 18:38 cases, it's like I could work 24 hours a 18:40 day and there'd still be more to do. 18:42 >> It's not about like leaving the sink 18:44 full of dirty dishes. It's about what do 18:47 those symbolize? that symbolizes, you 18:50 know, that I like things a certain way 18:52 and it's not that important to you. You 18:55 assume I'm going to take care of this 18:57 thing and that, you know, you don't have 18:58 to like it's it's always the thing under 19:00 the thing. And if if early on in a 19:03 relationship when there's still all this 19:05 abundance of goodwill and connection and 19:07 optimism, 19:09 if that's when you say, "Hey, let's 19:12 figure out how to keep this here with 19:14 these little tiny practical discussions, 19:18 communications." Again, whether it's an 19:19 email we send each other once a week 19:21 with that list or whether it's we go for 19:23 a walk and it's like our walk and talk 19:25 once a week and we do this. I think 19:28 those kinds of practical little things 19:31 are the way you stay connected. Period. 19:34 >> Well, just to make sure as you were 19:35 listening or you were watching here on 19:37 YouTube that you got just those two 19:39 simple questions. The first one was what 19:40 are three ways that I made you feel 19:43 loved? 19:43 >> Made you feel loved. 19:44 >> Yes. And the second one was, "What are 19:47 three ways where I missed the mark?" 19:48 >> Yeah. 19:49 >> And and you might want to throw in, you 19:51 know, here are three ways you made me 19:53 feel loved this week. like just to 19:55 because again I'm a I'm a believer in 19:57 that positive reinforcement. 19:58 >> Absolutely. Well, you don't beat your 20:00 dog into becoming well behaved. Yeah. 20:03 >> You love them into it. You reward good 20:06 behavior. This is like basic. 20:08 >> This is the basic stuff, but we don't do 20:10 it. We start with this is what you did 20:11 wrong. You know what I mean? Like you're 20:12 like ah 20:12 >> right. And the entry point in the 20:14 conversation is so important because 20:15 there's so many couples for example that 20:17 you know there's there's something I 20:18 hear all the time particularly from men 20:20 is like oh we don't have as much sex as 20:21 we used to. We used to have so much. 20:23 Okay. So if you walk into your wife and 20:25 say, you know, we're just not having sex 20:26 as much as we used to. You know the 20:28 response. Well, you're not here. And 20:30 when you're here, you're in a terrible 20:31 mood. Well, I'm in a terrible mood 20:32 because work is so now where are we 20:33 going? We're going nowhere good. Like no 20:36 one's walking out of that conversation 20:37 going, let's have more sex. Everyone's 20:38 walking into that conversation going, 20:39 "Yeah, this is exactly why we're not 20:41 having more sex." Whereas if you entered 20:43 that conversation with God, you know, I 20:46 was driving down the street the other 20:47 day and I remember remember when we were 20:49 first dating and we went away to that 20:50 like cheap B&B, you know, that we didn't 20:53 like have the money to afford and we 20:55 were supposed to go to and we ended up 20:56 staying in bed the whole day like 20:58 remember God that I was just thinking 20:59 about that day like that was so you know 21:01 like when we were so connected 21:02 physically. I just love that about Okay, 21:04 now 21:05 >> now you're like let's book the hotel. 21:06 >> Let's book right like cuz what am I 21:08 doing? I'm talking about something we're 21:11 do we did at some this was us and it's a 21:14 version of us. Let's visit it for a 21:16 second. Wasn't it great? 21:17 >> Well, here's what I love. Here's what I 21:19 love about that. You can use nostalgia 21:22 and going back to a better time. 21:25 >> Sure. as a reference point to remind 21:28 both of you. 21:29 >> Yeah. 21:29 >> Of what you miss 21:32 >> and something that's underneath all 21:34 these little things that have led to all 21:36 this discontent and disconnection and 21:39 what 21:40 >> therapist Terry Real calls normal 21:42 marital rage and uh and and hostility. I 21:45 think he what's he call it? Normal 21:46 marital hostility. 21:48 >> Yeah. It's called normal marital 21:50 resentment. 21:50 >> Yeah. that is just about the 21:52 disconnection because I think the 21:54 resentment comes from knowing deep down 21:56 you started in a different place. And 21:58 for I think for a lot of people, 22:00 >> you just don't know how to get back 22:02 >> and you think since it feels so off. 22:05 >> Yeah. 22:06 >> What's right in front of your nose is 22:07 what you're pointing out. 22:08 >> Yeah. Well, we've been told it's 22:10 supposed to be easy, too. I think that 22:12 we're constantly barged in media with 22:16 examples of just effortless love. And I 22:19 think that there is an aspect of love 22:21 that's utterly effortless. Like love is 22:23 an emotion, but love's a verb, 22:24 >> you know. What does that mean? 22:25 >> Love's a verb. I mean, love is an 22:27 emotion. It's a feeling, but it's a 22:28 verb. Like to love someone is to act 22:31 with love for them. Like like it's it's 22:33 a verb. It's a thing you do. So it's not 22:35 just something you feel. It's something 22:37 you act upon and and to act with love 22:39 towards someone. And so the acting with 22:42 love towards someone, loving someone, 22:43 actively the act of loving them requires 22:47 a some understanding of them and their 22:50 blind spots. Like what would be wrong 22:52 with sitting down with your partner at 22:54 the start of a relationship and saying, 22:57 "Look, 22:59 we're going to get in a fight some 23:01 point. It's probably going to be my 23:02 fault. I'm going to say something 23:03 stupid. I say dumb things all the time. 23:04 So we're definitely going to have an 23:06 argument at some point. When we do, what 23:09 kind of person are you? Do you like need 23:12 a minute? Should I let it kind of like 23:13 air out because if I if I try to force 23:15 the conversation, we're going to have a 23:17 big argument. Or are you the like we 23:19 cannot go to bed angry. We got to work 23:21 this out. We have to talk about this 23:22 tonight. Because the time to learn that 23:26 is not when you're in a fight. Like the 23:28 time to learn that is when there's this 23:30 abundance of connection and optimism 23:31 between the two of you. And then when 23:34 that moment comes to have the presence 23:36 of mind, when you have a conflict to go, 23:38 okay, we knew this was going to happen 23:40 and this is how we talked about we're 23:42 going to try to navigate this together. 23:44 Again, like everything I'm proposing 23:46 anybody do in their relationship is free 23:50 and it usually doesn't take more than a 23:51 few minutes. And by the way, what you 23:53 said about nostalgia, I think nostalgia 23:55 is a powerful tool, but it's not just 23:58 nostalgia, it's also framing because 24:00 there are ways to effectively manipulate 24:04 the emotional state of your spouse for 24:07 their benefit, right? 24:08 >> I mean, think of as a lawyer, my job is 24:10 to manipulate people's emotional state. 24:12 That's my job. Like, I want the judge to 24:14 like my client. I want my client to feel 24:15 safe. I want the other side to feel 24:16 scared. I want the court reporter to 24:18 like me. I want the the court officer to 24:21 like me because they're going to go back 24:22 in chambers with the judge and I want 24:23 them to go Sexon's a really good lawyer. 24:25 I don't want them to go that Sexton's so 24:26 arrogant. So, I got to be really I want 24:28 everyone not everybody can help me, but 24:29 damn near everybody can hurt me. So, I'm 24:31 going to do my best in that courtroom to 24:33 manipulate everyone's emotional state 24:34 and have no one think I'm doing it. 24:36 >> Well, here's the other thing, though. 24:38 When you're doing it, 24:40 >> Yeah. 24:41 >> you're very authentically intentional. 24:44 >> 100%. 24:45 >> Because that's what you actually want. 24:47 >> 100%. And by the way, 24:48 >> so you know, because people hear the 24:49 word manipulate, but what you're 24:50 actually being is you're being super 24:51 strategic because you do want the court 24:53 officer to think you're an excellent 24:54 lawyer. 24:54 >> Listen, I manipulate the screw cuz I 24:56 want the thing to be screwed into the 24:58 wall. Like manipulation is not in and of 25:00 itself anything nefarious. 25:02 >> Yes. 25:02 >> Like what when you know an example I 25:05 I've given before is um so I you know 25:08 I'm a trial lawyer so I try to be like 25:10 clean shaven. I don't get to have that 25:11 like oops I didn't know I was sexy 25:13 stubble that's so popular. So, I have to 25:15 like be clean shaving. But on the 25:16 weekends, I like to not shave. Like, it 25:18 is a couple days off from it. I don't 25:20 have to be in court. So, it's great. I 25:21 don't wear a tie and I don't shave on 25:22 the weekends. 25:24 >> By like the second day, by Sunday, I 25:26 have like scruff and it's kind of 25:28 coarse. Y 25:28 >> and I was dating a woman who had very 25:30 sensitive skin. 25:31 >> And anytime I would like go to kiss her, 25:34 she would go like, "Oh god, like your 25:35 beard's so scratchy." And immediately in 25:38 me I went like in my head like you know 25:42 like all right so now I got to shave on 25:43 the weekends too when I see you. That 25:45 relationship didn't work out. Not 25:46 surprisingly not for that reason but it 25:48 didn't work out. My next relationship 25:50 she had the exact same issue. She she 25:52 had sensitive skin but her response her 25:55 way of handling it was I would shave and 25:59 she would invariably come up and god I 26:02 love it when you're clean shaven. Like 26:03 it's like you remind me of like John 26:04 Ham, like with Don Draper and Mad Men, 26:06 you know, dude, I would shave three 26:08 times a day. [laughter] I would I would 26:10 constantly I would shave and I'd be 26:11 like, "Oh, I just shaved today." And 26:12 she'd be like, "Oh my god, I love it." 26:14 Okay, what did she do? What did she do 26:16 but manipulate me in a positive way? 26:18 Like all she was doing was saying 26:20 instead of framing it as something I'm 26:22 doing wrong, she framed it as here's 26:26 this opposite thing you do that oh, I 26:29 love it and now I I want to please my 26:32 partner. I want my partner to feel good 26:34 about me and think I'm sexy and think 26:35 I'm So, of course, I'm going to want to 26:38 move towards that 26:39 >> and not pull away from it. So, a lot of 26:41 it is about framing. Nostalgia is a very 26:43 powerful tool, but it's really like how 26:45 do we frame what it is we're trying to 26:48 accomplish here 26:49 >> and really focusing often on the things 26:52 that are going well and that you like 26:55 and tripling down 26:57 >> on what they're doing well. Because I 26:59 mean, let's be honest, the world is like 27:01 constantly criticizing us. And even 27:04 constructive criticism is criticism. 27:06 >> Like, and it doesn't feel great 27:09 >> to have this person who's supposed to be 27:12 your favorite person and you're their 27:14 favorite person and they're criticizing 27:15 you. Like, everything is criticizing 27:18 you. Like, what's right in this 27:19 connection very often is the cure for 27:22 what's feeling wrong in it. And 27:24 criticism is rarely the path there. If 27:28 you really think about kind of all those 27:30 little mistakes, kind of like a mechanic 27:32 that can tell you what's going to go 27:33 wrong with the car, what do you feel are 27:38 the list of mistakes that people make in 27:41 long-term relationships 27:44 >> that lead to divorce or lead to all the 27:47 problems that we may not realize. And I 27:50 realize that you've already said that 27:51 underneath it all is disconnection, but 27:55 what are those mistakes that we need to 27:57 really know about? 27:59 >> Yeah. I mean, I think if you start with 28:02 where are we when we meet and fall in 28:04 love, we fall in love super fast. I 28:06 mean, we we really connect with the 28:08 person so instantaneously. 28:10 And then we we fall apart the same way 28:13 we go bankrupt, which is very slowly and 28:16 then all at once, 28:18 >> you know, it's like this little tiny 28:19 little bit little bit off the cliff. And 28:22 so I think it's the same thing with 28:23 falling out of love. And so the big 28:26 relationship killers are infidelity, 28:28 financial impropriy, you know, outright 28:30 deception, like and that's huge. Like I 28:33 I would say a good 85% of the divorces 28:36 that I'm involved in, infidelity has 28:38 some role in it. 28:40 >> Why do you think that is? 28:41 >> Because I think we have a human the same 28:42 reason why so many people want to get 28:43 married. We have a human desire to 28:45 connect to another person. I think we're 28:47 social creatures. This is something in 28:49 us like we want to connect with another 28:52 person. We we need desperately to to be 28:55 interested and interesting and we want 28:58 to feel loved. We want physical 28:59 connection with another person. We want 29:02 the attention that comes with physical 29:04 connection, you know, we want the I I 29:07 think we whether it's marriage and the 29:11 early days of marriage or dating or the 29:13 early days of infidelity, 29:16 it's not just the other person that we 29:19 kind of fall for. It's also who we feel 29:22 like when we're with them. You know, 29:24 like you stand a little taller when 29:26 someone sees you as so beautiful or so 29:29 handsome. like you you feel like a 29:32 version of yourself. Like everyone I 29:34 talk to in my office who's had affairs 29:37 very often they'll say like look I I 29:38 love my spouse. I never stopped loving 29:41 my spouse but like my spouse doesn't 29:43 find me beautiful or handsome anymore. 29:46 Like nobody, you know, like and and I've 29:48 stop and then I met this person and like 29:50 I'm fascinating to them. I they tell me 29:53 how beautiful I am or how handsome I am. 29:56 And I actually feel that like I feel 29:58 that way because it's so lovely to be 30:01 told, you know, you're so wonderful. I'm 30:03 enjoying being with even just the two of 30:05 us right now talking to each other. 30:06 There's something so beautiful about 30:08 like, oh, what you're saying is so 30:09 interesting. I'm enjoying talking to 30:11 you. Like that's such a lovely exchange. 30:14 So it's a natural human. Like if you 30:16 think about like the seven deadly sins, 30:19 you know, 30:20 >> all they really are is like seven very 30:22 normal human things taken to the wrong 30:25 level. Like we want to eat, okay, 30:27 gluttony, we we we need intimate 30:29 connection with another person. Lust, 30:31 you know, we get angry when someone 30:33 hurts us, wrath, like if you look at 30:35 those things, all it is is a normal 30:37 human thing weaponized. So I I think 30:40 that's where we, you know, we lose the 30:43 plot in that we we just forget like the 30:45 the most common thing again is just that 30:48 disconnection. And that disconnection 30:50 can be in the form of I'm disconnected 30:52 from the me you made me feel like. 30:55 >> Yes. 30:55 >> Which is a me problem by the way. 30:57 Typically, by the way, I'm sure you see 30:59 this is that when you have a 31:01 relationship where there's been 31:03 infidelity 31:04 >> and the person who's cheating 31:06 >> is being is feeling seen and feeling 31:10 like they can stand taller and feeling 31:12 like they're interesting. The person 31:14 who's being cheated on is like, "Well, I 31:16 wanted that too in our relationship, you 31:18 asshole." Like, what? Like, I was 31:20 missing that, too. And so you can see 31:23 >> that the disconnection and the lack of 31:26 feeling cared about 31:28 >> is probably it's happening for both of 31:30 them. 31:30 >> It's happening for both of them. And 31:33 there were all of these moments where 31:36 you had like a last clear chance to 31:38 steer out of that. But there's like an 31:40 opportunity for people if they'd 31:42 communicated early on like, "Hey, I'm 31:46 not feeling like I feel like my eye is 31:48 wandering. I don't want my eye to 31:50 wander. Like I want to be good at this 31:52 job, right? Like when you marry someone, 31:54 you're signing on for a job. Like it's 31:56 wonderful. It's bliss, all those things, 31:57 but it's also a job. It's got a job 31:59 description, you know? Like I'm And by 32:01 the way, it's an insane job description. 32:03 Like you're going to be my best friend, 32:05 best co-parent, best roommate, best 32:07 travel partner, be like, wow, really? 32:10 Like that's a big list. You found one 32:11 person that can do all of that. We've 32:14 convinced people that no, no, this is 32:15 your person and they should be the best 32:17 at everything. And if they're not, by 32:19 the way, maybe your soulmate's out there 32:20 and you missed the boat and you got to 32:22 go find that person because life is 32:23 supposed to be like a Hallmark movie. 32:25 You know, 32:25 >> I I feel like anybody that's in a 32:27 relationship right now is leaning in cuz 32:29 it's easy to feel like roommates. It's 32:32 easy to fall into a lull. 32:34 >> There's other people all around you. You 32:36 actually have a chapter in your book, 32:38 How to Stay in Love, Chapter 19. If we 32:42 were designing an infidelity generating 32:45 machine, it would be Facebook, 32:48 Instagram, YouTube, social media. This 32:51 is page 114. If you're vaguely unhappy 32:56 with your relationship or marriage, and 32:58 especially if you're more than vaguely 33:01 unhappy with it, stay away from social 33:04 media. The vast majority of what you'll 33:07 find there is unhappiness. 33:09 Masked is happiness. It will with 33:12 your head, your heart, and your 33:14 relationship. 33:16 And you talk all about how social media 33:18 is a single greatest breeding ground 33:20 ever for infidelity. Nothing that has 33:23 come before, not swingers, clubs, key 33:25 parties, chat rooms, workplace 33:27 temptation, Ashley Madison, Tinder, 33:29 Grinder. No, no, no, no. Not even porn 33:31 comes within a thousand miles. 33:35 >> Yeah, I stand by that. 33:36 >> Why? because it's just a perfect storm 33:40 of 33:42 of attacks on the institution of a 33:46 monogous marriage. Like it it 33:49 >> a you have a innocuous reason you should 33:53 be using this technology 33:55 cover. you're like all the time. 33:56 >> Oh, I have to be on it for work or I 33:58 wanted to see what this person's up to 33:59 or oh the Facebook group of blah blah 34:01 blah is, you know, for our kids thing or 34:03 like there's a million reasons you'd be 34:05 on your phone that are totally 34:07 innocuous, 34:08 >> right? Unlike a strip club. 34:09 >> Unlike a strip club or if for example I 34:12 think that one of the women at my one of 34:15 the moms at my son's soccer practice is 34:17 attractive. If the only entry point I 34:20 have for talking to her would be walking 34:22 up to her at practice, it's not as 34:25 threatening because you can't really do 34:27 that without it being but now well we 34:29 follow each other on social media 34:31 because we both are part of that group 34:33 that is a group chat that you know and 34:34 now I also see her vacation pictures and 34:37 now I I might innocuously say to her, 34:39 "Oh, I saw you guys went to Tulum. Where 34:41 did you stay? We're thinking about going 34:43 and now I'm talking to you and I'm 34:45 talking to you by the way privately like 34:47 I'm in your DMs. We're talking. So it's 34:49 not only like not it's not like 34:50 approaching you at the soccer game. It's 34:53 like approaching you alone in a 34:54 restaurant like and we're just the two 34:56 of us talking and no one can see what 34:57 we're saying. You're just creating this 35:00 perfect storm for people. And by the 35:02 way, the performative self like all 35:04 anyone posts is the best pictures of 35:06 themselves. And when and when are you on 35:08 your phone looking at social media? Is 35:10 it when you're having like the greatest 35:11 day or the greatest moment? No. You're 35:13 on the subway. You're on the toilet. 35:14 You're bored, right? You're just bored. 35:17 You're living your gag reel and you're 35:19 looking at everyone's greatest hits and 35:20 and you're supposed to walk out of that 35:22 transaction feeling deeper connected 35:24 into your real life relationship. No, 35:26 it's a total distraction, but it's a 35:29 distraction that is going to create all 35:31 kinds of enticements and connections 35:32 that really are not going to be good for 35:34 your marriage. and you have total 35:36 plausible deniability if your spouse has 35:39 any question about why are you on your 35:40 phone. There's a million reasons we'd 35:42 all be on our phone. So yeah, it's a 35:44 perfect storm. Like as divorce lawyers, 35:46 we owe the people who made these 35:47 platforms a debt of tremendous gratitude 35:49 because they have given us job security. 35:51 >> So if you're in a committed partnership, 35:53 >> yeah, 35:54 >> what is the kind of ground rules around 35:57 social media for yourself? 36:00 >> Yeah. 36:00 >> And for your partner? I I like how you 36:02 framed that question because I think a 36:04 lot of this has to do with what are you 36:06 doing? Yes. 36:07 >> Like because I think most people who are 36:10 married would like to have a happy 36:12 marriage. 36:12 >> So just like most people would like to 36:15 be in good shape, the question is not 36:18 what do you want, it's what are you 36:19 willing to trade for it? Like what are 36:21 you willing to give up in exchange for 36:24 that thing? So I think the first 36:26 question we have to ask ourselves is am 36:28 I using this technology in a way that if 36:31 my spouse was standing here I would use 36:35 it differently like would I be following 36:38 these people if my spouse was watching 36:40 who I follow? I'm not suggesting we have 36:42 to monitor each other's social media. 36:44 That's a I think a very personal 36:46 decision couples have to make. But I 36:48 think the best entry point is yourself, 36:50 right? Because I have much more control 36:51 over myself than anything else. So I 36:53 think starting with would I be having 36:56 this communication with this person in 36:58 this specific way if my spouse was part 37:01 of the conversation and sometimes it's 37:03 very obvious that the answer is no. Like 37:05 I I genuinely think the cure for the 37:08 entry points of infidelity is monitoring 37:11 your own behavior. Like if my spouse was 37:14 standing next to me, would I be talking 37:15 to this person this way? Would I be 37:17 looking at them this way? Would my body 37:20 language be what it is if my spouse was 37:22 standing here? And if the answer is no, 37:24 okay, then just notice that. Notice 37:27 that. I'm not saying you have to do it 37:29 differently, but notice that because you 37:32 realize, hey, this is a problem. Like I 37:34 I know I keep bringing things back to 37:35 like food and fitness, but you know, 37:37 like I can't I can control my food 37:40 environment better than my brain. Like 37:42 if there's potato chips around, I'm 37:44 eating them. So I know, okay, I can't 37:45 have that in the house. or if I have it 37:47 in the house, it's with the 37:48 understanding that, oh yeah, I'm going 37:49 to annihilate those potato chips at some 37:51 point in one sitting, you know, and 37:52 that's okay. Like, listen, life is to be 37:54 enjoyed. But if you because discipline 37:57 is trading what you want now for what 37:58 you want most. And so, what do I want 38:01 most? I want a long-term satisfying 38:04 relationship. I want to be happy in this 38:06 relationship. I want my partner to be 38:07 happy in this relationship. I I want 38:09 both of us to feel fulfilled. I want 38:11 both of us to feel loved. Like that's 38:13 what I 38:14 >> Let's say that you're at that point in 38:15 your relationship where as the person 38:19 who's here with us right now is 38:20 listening and having a panic attack 38:22 >> because you realize you're in that phase 38:26 of the relationship that every long-term 38:30 relationship goes through. 38:31 >> Yeah. 38:32 >> You've had the fairy tale. 38:34 >> Yeah. 38:34 >> Now you're in maintenance. Yeah. 38:37 >> Now you're noticing the resentment is 38:40 hitting. Yeah, 38:41 >> you're disconnected. You're not having 38:43 sex. You're annoyed at your favorite 38:45 person all the time. You're wondering if 38:47 there's somebody better. 38:49 >> You wish 38:50 >> it did it wasn't this way, but it's 38:52 starting to feel like, will we ever get 38:54 back? 38:55 >> What are some of the things 38:56 >> Yeah. 38:57 >> that you should do 38:59 >> immediately? 39:00 >> Yeah. 39:01 >> I mean, I think in in in 25 years of 39:03 practicing matrimonial law, what I'd say 39:06 to you is you're where most people are 39:09 who are married. Like that's where you 39:10 are. You're where most people are. And 39:13 you probably got there by this 39:16 succession of small choices that created 39:19 this what I would call like a downward 39:21 spiral. This spiral where you know, 39:24 well, why should I do that? You don't do 39:26 that. Well, why should I do that? She 39:27 doesn't do that. Well, why should And 39:29 the good news is wherever you are, 39:32 whether that started just recently or 39:35 whether you are down in the valley, 39:36 right? like it has just been I don't 39:38 remember what it was like and what it 39:41 felt like when we were in that great 39:42 place. 39:44 You can reverse that spiral. It works 39:46 the same. It works the same in the 39:47 opposite direction. How is is the same 39:50 way that it went wrong small actions 39:54 like start small start with leave a 39:58 note. Leave a note. You're leaving in 40:00 the morning for work. Leave a note. It 40:02 was really fun hanging out with you last 40:04 night. I married the prettiest girl in 40:05 the world. or you know, um, hey, thanks 40:09 for, you know, uh, thanks for taking 40:11 care of that, you know, thing for me 40:13 yesterday and calling the cable company. 40:14 It really means a lot when my big strong 40:16 man does things like that. Whatever. 40:18 Like some little courtesy [snorts] 40:20 or kindness costs nothing. Takes 5 40:22 seconds to do. 40:23 >> You know, you also did cuz you're really 40:25 good at manipulating. 40:26 >> Yeah. 40:26 >> And being strategic. You reminded me in 40:30 that note 40:31 >> Yeah. 40:32 >> of how I felt 40:33 >> Yeah. 40:34 >> when we first met. 40:35 >> Yeah. Yeah. 40:36 >> prettiest girl in the world, strongest 40:38 guy, best person on the planet. 40:40 >> And why not? Why not? Like that's so 40:42 easy throughout the day. Like I I I tell 40:44 a lot of my male friends, 40:47 >> if you text your wife in the middle of 40:49 the day with a song that was like a song 40:51 important to you and you send a link to 40:53 that song and you go, I heard this song 40:54 in the coffee shop today and I thought 40:56 of you. Like that that's an incredible 40:58 feeling. Like it's an intoxicating 41:01 wonderful feeling. like and and it 41:03 doesn't take much to just bring someone 41:05 back to that place. And by the way, the 41:07 person's initial reaction might be what 41:10 what inspired that like where because if 41:12 you're down far enough in the valley, 41:14 you kind of go like but it's not hard to 41:17 just say, you know what, 41:18 >> I just I feel like I have to do a better 41:20 job of like telling you these things. I 41:22 think of it a lot, but I sometimes don't 41:24 say it out loud. 41:25 >> Like who would not want to hear that? 41:28 Like how much would it take and how much 41:30 would it cost? Nothing. would cost 41:32 nothing to write your spouse 41:35 an email. Here's 10 things I love about 41:37 you. 10 things. And by the way, you're 41:40 it's not just for them. Like they'll 41:42 love reading that, but also like it's 41:45 for you. Like remind yourself why did 41:47 you choose this person? Like there's 41:49 still so much beauty in this person. 41:52 There's still so much beauty in you. 41:54 Like why wouldn't you take a moment and 41:57 just enjoy the warmth of that? Like it's 41:59 right there. It's like no one's going to 42:02 advertise this to you cuz it's free. You 42:04 don't need to buy a book to learn it. 42:07 You don't need to take a course. There's 42:09 nothing I can sell you here. Like this 42:12 is just you have it. It's right there. 42:15 It's right in front of you. You have to 42:16 actively steer away from it at some 42:19 point. And again, and it's never too 42:20 late to change that. 42:21 >> I'm thinking about I'm thinking about 42:22 the person who hears that. 42:26 >> Yeah. 42:27 the writing the email of 10 things and I 42:31 think we can get so sequestered in our 42:33 corners. 42:34 >> Yeah. 42:35 >> That you your immediate reaction is 42:38 either I can't think of 10 or why aren't 42:40 they writing it to me? 42:41 >> Yeah. 42:42 >> Or what if they don't respond or 42:44 >> So those are three separate great 42:46 questions. So and I think I would answer 42:47 them separately. So the first one is 42:50 what if I can't think of 10 things I 42:51 love about this person then maybe you 42:53 should consider getting divorced. What 42:56 >> I mean, if you if you're telling me 42:57 you're married to a person and you can't 43:00 think of 10 things you love about them, 43:02 there are 8 billion people in the world. 43:06 Maybe you're married to the wrong one. 43:08 Like sometimes happily ever after means 43:10 happily ever after separately. Like I'm 43:12 divorced. My ex-wife is one of my 43:14 favorite people. She's amazing. I love 43:16 her very much. There are a lot of people 43:19 I love that I wouldn't want to be 43:20 married to. Actually, all of them. All 43:23 of them. Right? Because it's a very 43:26 specific kind of relationship. If you're 43:27 telling me I can't think of 10 things 43:30 this person I chose out of eight billion 43:32 other options to be my most intimate 43:34 partner in life, I can't think of 10 43:36 things I love about that person. I maybe 43:39 you should consider a divorce because 43:42 that's an insane reality. And by the 43:44 way, okay, maybe you've grown so far 43:46 apart. My ex-wife has been remarried for 43:48 15 years to an amazing guy who's 43:49 absolutely nothing like me 43:51 personalitywise and perfect for her. And 43:53 I have to tell you, I love her. I love 43:55 him. We're like a weird family. But the 43:58 truth is, like, God bless. Like, God 44:00 bless. She found the lid for her pot. 44:02 Amazing. Amazing. I'm so glad. I have to 44:05 tell you, I can tell you 10 things I 44:06 love about my ex-wife. She can tell you 44:08 10 things she loves about me. Like, I 44:09 can tell you 10 things I love about 44:10 almost anyone in my life. So, if you're 44:13 in a place where you're looking at your 44:14 spouse and going, I can't even think of 44:16 10 things. Then, I think go to therapy 44:18 and really try to answer that question. 44:20 and then try to answer the question, why 44:22 would I be married to a person I can't 44:24 think of 10 things I love about them? So 44:26 that's question number one. Yes. 44:28 Question number two is what if they 44:30 don't do it back for me? What if it has 44:32 Okay, that's where it's scary. 44:34 >> But what's scarier than that is, well, 44:36 we just won't even try. 44:38 >> Like to I I understand 44:41 so well as a human being how vulnerable 44:44 it feels to express need. And it's hard 44:48 for me. I I don't know if it is for you, 44:49 but it's hard for me being that kind of 44:51 person to say, "I really need help. I 44:54 can't do this myself." 44:55 >> Yeah. 44:57 >> And And it's humbling. It's getting 44:58 easier as I age. It's one of the things 45:00 I actually like best about aging is that 45:02 it's okay for me to say like, "Oh, I 45:03 need some help with this." Or, "Oh, I'm 45:05 not so good at that. Are you good at 45:06 that? Can you help me with that?" Like, 45:08 and maybe there's things I'll be able to 45:09 help you with. Which, by the way, at its 45:11 best is what marriage is. 45:12 >> So true. you know, it's about like, hey, 45:14 how can we how can we become like 45:16 complimentary pieces to each other and 45:18 and to to to create this beautiful hole 45:20 together. So, I think that's an amazing 45:22 opportunity is to is to really say to 45:25 yourself like, "Hey, I'm going to try. 45:27 I'm going to try." And it's brave to 45:29 try. And it's scary, but like if you're 45:32 not scared, it's not brave. 45:34 >> Like, it's only brave if you're scared 45:36 and you do it anyway. So I think that 45:38 >> most of us if love is on the line, if 45:42 our marriage is on the line, like we can 45:44 be brave. Like you believed in Santa 45:45 Claus for seven years, you can believe 45:47 in yourself for 15 minutes, you know, 45:48 like just just just really like, you 45:50 know, 5 4 3 2 1 like go, you know, like 45:53 just do the thing, you know? So I think 45:55 try and at least that way you'll know 45:58 where you stand because if you've now 46:01 made a concerted effort where I you've 46:03 tried a few times to really reach out to 46:05 this person in a consistent way and 46:07 create some connection between and it's 46:09 been rebuffed every time. Then I think 46:12 you're going to have a much clearer 46:13 understanding of where you're really at 46:14 in that relationship and that might 46:16 guide you in a direction like my office. 46:18 I believe some marriages need to end. I 46:21 I genuinely do. I've seen some people 46:23 very successfully divorce, many of which 46:26 then go on to find love that is more 46:28 deep and connected for them and real 46:30 joy. They they're better people and 46:32 they're better parents after their 46:33 divorce. And I I think we do the world a 46:35 disservice to view all divorces as 46:38 failures. I I don't believe it's a 46:40 failure. I don't believe my divorce was 46:41 a failure. It produced two amazing 46:44 children that are now amazing adults. I 46:46 became a better man by virtue of my 46:48 connection to her. I'd like to think she 46:50 would say the same about herself. She 46:52 went on to find tremendous love in her 46:54 life. I have too. There's tremendous 46:56 value in connecting well, disconnecting 47:00 bravely and maturely if you can do it. 47:03 >> What did you learn about yourself and 47:04 about relationships by going through 47:08 your own divorce? 47:09 >> My divorce was, you know, very boring 47:11 because we're both very reasonable 47:13 people who concede the possibility of 47:14 our own error. And we fell in love as 47:17 like teenagers basically. We met in 47:19 college and we got married at 22 and had 47:21 a kid at 24. So, we were babies. Um, 47:26 what I learned is that, you know, that 47:28 there are a lot of people in the world 47:29 that I love that I wouldn't be 47:31 appropriately married to. I also learned 47:33 that the job description of a husband 47:36 and of an ex-husband are two different 47:38 things. I'm a really good ex-husband. 47:41 I'm a really good father. I'm not a 47:43 great husband. Like, I don't have the 47:44 patience. I don't have some of the 47:47 skills that I think are really good in a 47:49 husband. Like I think a husband is very 47:51 comfortable sort of like accommodating 47:53 their will to that of the other and 47:55 they're patient in some important ways. 47:58 And like as an ex-husband and a 48:00 co-parent, I was great at it. Like I was 48:02 consistent, reliable, dependable, good 48:04 communicator. I'm a good dad. Like I put 48:07 my kids first. I always like, you know, 48:09 still even as adults, I I love them and 48:11 I make time for them and they're always, 48:12 you know, my priority. Um, and I always, 48:15 you know, as an ex-husband, like had a 48:17 tremendous love and respect for my 48:18 co-parent. I always, every Mother's Day 48:20 would make sure my kids, you know, had 48:22 gifts for her. Every birthday, every 48:24 Christmas, I'd make sure they had things 48:25 for their mom. Then when she got 48:27 remarried, I sat down with her new 48:29 husband at the time and said, like, 48:31 okay, like I'm going to like, do you 48:33 want to get her birthday gift for the 48:35 boys now? Like, cuz I don't want them 48:36 empty-handed. Like, they're going to 48:38 feel self-conscious, but I also don't 48:39 want to overstep. like I'm going to 48:41 still do Mother's Day cuz that's what 48:43 she is to me for my sons, but maybe 48:46 you'll get the boys Christmas gifts with 48:48 her. And like we had this discussion. He 48:50 was a divorced guy himself, so we were 48:51 like, it was this really lovely like, 48:53 oh, how are we going to shapeshift this 48:55 dynamic? So, I learned a lot about how 48:58 you can disconnect in like a very 48:59 beautiful way and and have a 49:02 non-traditional kind of family that, you 49:05 know, is joyful. I I learned a lot about 49:08 how divorces don't have to always be the 49:11 kinds of things that I was handling even 49:13 at that time. I was already a divorce 49:15 lawyer at that time. I I and I really 49:17 thought divorce was always this 49:19 knockdown dragout battle that you need 49:21 someone like me and I I you don't always 49:24 need like you can do it with a scalpel. 49:27 You don't always need a chainsaw. Like 49:29 I'm kind of a chainsaw. And so it was 49:32 really lovely for me to learn because 49:34 you know if if you think about divorce 49:36 the ones you hear about 49:39 like if I go to a cocktail party I don't 49:41 go to a lot of cocktail parties but if I 49:42 went to a cocktail party and somebody 49:43 said what do you do for a living I saw 49:44 I'm a divorce lawyer 49:45 >> and they go oh my god you must have 49:47 stories and I said oh my god if I got 49:49 one there was this couple and they got 49:51 married when they were quite young and 49:53 then you know the ven diagram of their 49:55 interests kind of didn't intersect as 49:56 much and they grew in different 49:57 directions and then they amicably 49:59 divided you know their property and they 50:01 continued to co-parent their children 50:02 that they both loved a whole lot. You'd 50:04 be like, "That is the most boring story 50:06 ever." Like, I've talked more about my 50:08 divorce in this conversation than I 50:10 probably have in the last 5 years 50:11 because it's not that interesting. It's 50:13 two people. 50:13 >> I actually think it's super interesting 50:15 because it shows that there is a 50:17 different possibility in terms of how 50:18 you can conduct yourself right 50:20 >> both during it, 50:22 >> during the marriage, at the end of the 50:24 marriage, during the divorce. And it's 50:26 all about normalizing like so much of 50:28 what I think has gone right in our 50:29 culture in the last 10 years is 50:31 normalizing certain things like 50:32 normalizing therapy, normalizing mental 50:35 health issues, norm we we need to 50:37 normalize prenups. We need to normalize 50:40 what a civil divorce can look like, what 50:44 a cooperative co-parenting relationship 50:46 can look like. It does not have to be 50:48 because the kind of people that talk 50:50 about their divorce constantly are 50:52 people who were terribly wounded by it. 50:55 I understand it became a formative 50:58 trauma in their lives and it became 51:00 something that everything comes back to. 51:02 I get that. I've seen a lot of people 51:04 who've been victimized by that kind of a 51:06 divorce. But that has now become 51:10 culturally what we think divorce looks 51:12 like. And that is the unbelievable 51:15 minority of divorces. The majority 51:17 >> so the majority of divorces are the high 51:20 conflict. People are destroyed for years 51:22 after. What is the majority? 51:24 >> The majority is two people that at some 51:27 point were deeply connected to each 51:28 other, lost the connection, and now have 51:31 usually children in common or extended 51:35 family in common, and they need to end 51:37 the relationship, but they don't hate 51:39 each other. 51:40 >> Or if they're angry at each other, their 51:42 love for their children is much greater 51:44 than their dislike of each other. Like I 51:46 always tell people, a divorce is like a 51:48 table. It's got four legs. There's you 51:49 and your lawyer and the other side and 51:51 their lawyer. All you need is one of 51:53 those legs to be off. Doesn't matter how 51:54 nice and straight the other legs are, 51:56 that table's falling down. Like one 51:58 irrational person or one person with 52:00 like bad faith intentions 52:03 is going to make this into something 52:05 much uglier than it needs to be. 52:07 >> I want to finish up the topic of the 52:10 signs. 52:11 >> Yeah. 52:12 >> And really giving the person listening 52:17 the just resources or the awareness. 52:21 Yeah. 52:27 >> Based on all your experience, what are 52:30 the signs 52:31 >> that you are headed for a breakup or for 52:34 divorce? The ones that you actually see 52:37 like cuz I bet you go to a party or you 52:39 can walk into a room and you can 52:41 literally be like in a year, 52:43 >> five years 52:44 >> they're in trouble. 52:46 What you have to do first is look at 52:50 your baseline. So like look at what it 52:53 was you did when you were still 52:55 connected to each other. 52:56 >> Like how did you interact with each 52:58 other? How often did you have physical 52:59 intimacy? How often did you spend time 53:02 together just the two of you? What did 53:04 you do separately? And what did you do 53:05 together? Because until you look at your 53:07 baseline, you won't know how far you've 53:09 drifted from your baseline. 53:10 Relationships change, people change, 53:12 their bodies change, everything changes. 53:13 But the question is is when it did it 53:16 change by default or by design? Have you 53:19 ever thought or talked about as a couple 53:21 why it's changed and are we both okay 53:23 with that or is it something that one or 53:26 both of us feel like hey we might have 53:27 lost something in that process. So I 53:29 think again baseline is a really 53:31 important thing to be thinking about. 53:33 Then one of the first things I observe 53:36 when I'm seeing the cracks in a couple, 53:38 like when I walk into a room or I'm 53:40 watching, you know, one of those 53:41 housewife shows and I'm like, "Oh, 53:42 they're definitely getting divorced and 53:43 they're definitely getting divorced." 53:44 Like I often tell people, to me, the 53:46 shest indicator of a divorce is not 53:48 anything anyone says. It's a sound. And 53:51 it's this sound. It's 53:55 just that like [snorts] 53:57 when the other person's talking and 53:59 there's just this like like what? Yeah. 54:02 What? What? Yeah. Okay. Like, why are 54:04 you bothering me with what you're 54:06 saying? 54:07 >> Or that like kind of eye rolling. Like, 54:09 it's just those subtle courtesies and 54:12 disrespects. 54:14 >> It's the tone. It's the body language. 54:16 Like, that's a huge piece is. So, I 54:19 would when you're looking at signs, look 54:21 at how you physically relate to each 54:23 other. I mean, you've seen couples, I'm 54:25 sure, where it's like even when they 54:28 touch each other, it's like, you know, 54:30 when you're first together, like you 54:31 touch your skin and it's like an 54:34 electric bolt through you of like, oh my 54:36 god, this person touched me. This like, 54:37 oh my god, our legs touched like it's 54:38 just that. I mean, and thank God that 54:41 passes or we just never get anything 54:43 done, you know? But it's supposed to 54:45 sort of pass and become like still 54:48 something comfortable and connected 54:50 >> because all that person maybe you don't 54:51 like holding hands. That's okay. But 54:53 maybe they're trying to connect with 54:55 you. 54:55 >> Yeah. 54:55 >> So do you want to connect with them? 54:57 >> Like and if it's that I don't like 54:59 sweaty hands. Okay. So put your arm 55:00 around me like you know lean in and do 55:03 something like like meet each other 55:04 halfway. There's a lot of these little 55:06 tiny physical and verbal disconnections. 55:10 Like even just the act of when your 55:13 spouse is talking to you, if you are on 55:16 your goddamn phone, like that to me, 55:19 like watching couples sitting there and 55:20 one of them is talking and the other one 55:22 is sort of going through the phone and 55:24 you see them doing that. What? Oh yeah. 55:26 Yeah. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Like all I'm saying 55:28 to you is you're not important. You're 55:31 not important. You're not as important 55:32 as this. And then what do you meet that 55:34 with? Very often people meet it with 55:35 like they'll either keep going and 55:38 condone that behavior or they'll stop 55:40 and go, "Well, I'll let you finish. Go 55:41 ahead. No, no, finish what you're doing 55:42 on the phone." And now that feels 55:43 accusatory because that person's like, 55:45 "Well, no, I was trying to look at this 55:47 thing." They weren't trying maybe to 55:48 insult you. The two things I say that 55:51 everybody accuses me of being unromantic 55:52 that I actually think are two very 55:54 romantic sentiments is one, marriage is 55:56 a job. It has a set of roles and 55:59 responsibilities. You signed up for it. 56:00 You didn't have to take it. there were 56:02 other positions available and you chose 56:03 this one and you can quit if you want 56:05 to, you know, and you can go get a 56:07 different one if you want to. So, it's a 56:08 lot like a job and it's a job that 56:10 theoretically you want to be good at 56:12 because you want happiness, right? In 56:14 this in this exchange, 56:16 >> is there something that you recommend in 56:20 the middle of an argument to just 56:21 diffuse it or diffuse yourself? 56:23 >> I think the worst time to learn how to 56:25 fight is when you're in a fight. I think 56:27 in advance there should be some, you 56:29 know, it's almost like what's a safe 56:31 word? Like there should be a word that 56:33 we've agreed in advance is we're 56:35 ejecting from this conversation and 56:37 we'll continue it at another time. Like 56:39 we both know where the other one lives, 56:40 you know, like we'll find each other. So 56:43 like if you have like, you know, a 56:44 phrase like how about them Mets, like 56:46 something that just has nothing to do 56:48 with any discussion you're having, that 56:51 should be the phrase that like I don't 56:52 think this is productive and I think 56:54 we're going down a road that's 56:55 dangerous. and you should agree on it in 56:57 advance and you should make a commitment 56:59 to each other that listen I'm not saying 57:02 that that ejects us out of this 57:03 conversation for good because that would 57:05 be a great way to just you know it's 57:06 like a like you get a a hall pass in the 57:09 conversation we'll never bring it up 57:10 again right what we're saying is listen 57:12 this will be deferred for 24 hours or 57:15 this will be deferred for a maximum of x 57:17 number of hours or days or whatever it 57:20 might be because you both the corners 57:22 you back yourself into you got to figure 57:24 out ways to get out of I I mean, think 57:26 about the commitments you've made to 57:28 this person. I'm going to love you, you 57:29 and only you for eternity. And you can't 57:31 make the commitment of, "Hey, listen. If 57:33 we're in an argument and one of us feels 57:34 like this isn't productive or we're 57:35 feeling really hurt, we're going to say 57:37 this phrase, and that phrase will mean 57:38 we have to call a timeout." And two, 57:42 you know, 57:44 you can't really love someone and more 57:48 importantly like you can't really feel 57:50 someone's love 57:51 >> until you show them a really honest and 57:54 vulnerable version of yourself. Like 57:59 I'm a great performer in a courtroom, 58:01 you know, and I can present however I 58:04 need to present. But if in my 58:06 relationship 58:08 I am playing the character of like the 58:11 best version of myself and I don't let 58:13 this person see any of my soft spots or 58:15 any of my vulnerabilities or any of the 58:16 I need to work on, any of the 58:18 things I get wrong, the things I'm 58:20 afraid of, 58:21 >> I'll never feel their love. Like I'm 58:23 depriving myself because I'll always 58:26 have in my head, oh no, no, if if they 58:29 knew me, they wouldn't love me. They 58:32 love me because they bought the 58:33 character I'm selling them. So, I'm 58:35 depriving myself by not showing this 58:38 person these weak, difficult, 58:40 challenging parts of myself. But here's 58:43 the thing. If someone is brave enough to 58:45 show you those things 58:48 in a fight, if you weaponize those 58:51 things, 58:52 >> that is a despicable and almost 58:54 irreparable thing to do to someone. 58:57 Because when really, what is divorce at 59:00 its worst, but intimacy weaponized? 59:02 Because intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is 59:05 the ability to be completely yourself 59:06 with another person like your honest 59:09 authentic self with another person. And 59:11 so to take the vulnerability and the 59:14 soft spots that a person has shown you 59:17 in good faith so they could feel 59:18 connected to you and you guys could 59:20 trust each other and each feel like you 59:22 can show each other the soft spots to to 59:25 in a fight in a moment of anger to 59:27 weaponize that is a really really awful 59:31 kind of betrayal. So, I I would always 59:33 tell people like have some ground rules, 59:36 like no low blows. Like, listen, I like 59:38 I like the UFC. I like a good fight. 59:40 I've trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 20 59:42 years. Like, most of my best friends 59:44 have broken my nose at some point. I'm 59:46 telling you, like, have a fair fight. 59:49 Like, if you have to have a fight, have 59:51 a have an ability to call a timeout and 59:54 keep it a fair fight. 59:55 >> Yeah. 59:57 There's a couple of sentences you have 59:59 somewhere in the back of your head that 1:00:00 you know if you said them out loud to 1:00:02 him, you would reduce him to a pile of 1:00:03 tears in the corner. 1:00:04 >> Yes. 1:00:05 >> And he knows those sentences too about 1:00:07 you. He has some sentences he could say 1:00:09 that are all of your scarest, most 1:00:12 vulnerable pieces of you. And I know 1:00:15 that because you love each other and 1:00:16 you've been together a really long time. 1:00:18 And you can't love someone for that 1:00:20 duration, with that depth and with that 1:00:22 much affection without having been 1:00:25 vulnerable to that person 1:00:26 >> or shitty to them, 1:00:27 >> right? But but the truth is is having 1:00:30 knowledge of what that is, having that 1:00:32 ammunition 1:00:33 >> is an incredible responsibility and it's 1:00:36 something it's like having the nuclear 1:00:38 codes of the relationship and like keep 1:00:40 them locked. like don't use them because 1:00:44 just like nuclear weapons like you get 1:00:45 to use them once and then the whole 1:00:47 world blows up. So like don't do I've 1:00:50 seen people who in a moment of anger let 1:00:53 that fly and you can't take that back. 1:00:57 You can't you can't bring that in you 1:00:59 know and so really give more thought in 1:01:03 advance to when we disconnect. We do. We 1:01:06 disconnect. Like as a parent, you know, 1:01:08 who do you love more than your kids? And 1:01:11 when they're in middle school, you're 1:01:12 telling me you didn't want to kill them? 1:01:13 Like I tell my sons all the time, I'm 1:01:15 like, I I've never disliked anyone as 1:01:17 much as I disliked both of you in middle 1:01:18 school. And by the way, I know you 1:01:20 disliked yourself more than anything in 1:01:22 middle school. Like you'll never meet a 1:01:24 human being in their life who goes, "The 1:01:25 best years of my life were middle 1:01:26 school. It's always the happiest person 1:01:28 in middle school is miserable." But the 1:01:29 truth is like you you love your kids, 1:01:32 but you also are like, "Okay, I have to 1:01:34 have some ground rules." and how 1:01:38 moments of love it's easy. It's moments 1:01:41 of tension that you have to think about 1:01:43 in advance and figure out how to not 1:01:46 back yourself into corn. 1:01:47 >> That's a great framework thinking about 1:01:48 kids or even work. Like there are those 1:01:50 days you want to just go on a tear and 1:01:53 if you did you'd get fired or you cancel 1:01:56 yourself. 1:01:56 >> But isn't it funny how many things about 1:01:59 marriage like we put marriage in this 1:02:01 weird category and it's just really 1:02:02 another relationship. 1:02:04 Like, you know, I I I often use the 1:02:06 analogy of dogs because I love dogs, but 1:02:08 I have two senior citizen dogs. I have a 1:02:10 15-year-old and a 16-year-old dog, and I 1:02:12 know I'm, you know, I'm I'm playing with 1:02:13 the house's money at this point. I'm on 1:02:15 borrowed time with these guys, and I've 1:02:16 had them since they were babies. 1:02:17 >> Receipts are due. 1:02:18 >> Yeah. And and I'm I'm enjoying every 1:02:20 minute I have, but I have to tell you, 1:02:23 like, I've never once looked at my 1:02:25 15year-old dog who's deaf and thought, 1:02:28 "Dude, I got to get a puppy. Like these 1:02:31 are this dog's so old and it like hardly 1:02:33 can hear and I got to carry it 1:02:34 downstairs now. Like puppies are so cute 1:02:36 and they're fun and they run around. We 1:02:38 play ball and they can jog with me. Like 1:02:40 this dog's so old. Dude, I love this dog 1:02:43 more than every day. Like this the scent 1:02:46 of the dog. It's like this is I now but 1:02:49 yet with love like our romantic partner, 1:02:52 it's this constant feeling of like, oh 1:02:54 well, there's a younger model out there 1:02:55 and there's a more compelling model out 1:02:56 there. So it's like how you do anything 1:02:58 is how you do everything. Like if 1:03:00 somebody said to me, 1:03:03 I'll give you Well, you have dogs. You 1:03:04 have two dogs. Okay. So, two dogs. All 1:03:06 right. So, let's let's try this. 1:03:09 >> All right. If I told you, I'll give you 1:03:13 $100 million 1:03:15 for your dogs, you would say, no. 1:03:17 >> No. 1:03:18 >> Okay. 1:03:18 >> Well, I can pay my bills right now. 1:03:20 That's like there's that baseline, 1:03:22 right? So, if I said to you, God forbid, 1:03:25 not going to happen, but you have 30 1:03:26 days left with one of your kids, no 1:03:28 matter what. Okay, you only have 30 1:03:30 days. Would you take $100 million then 1:03:32 for those 30 days? You're going to lose 1:03:34 them in 30 days anyway. Would you give 1:03:35 me $100 million if I give you for that? 1:03:37 >> No. 1:03:38 >> Because why? Because the time would the 1:03:40 time would even be more precious knowing 1:03:42 that it was so short. Okay, that's love. 1:03:45 That's love. That's that's as good of a 1:03:46 definition of love as I could ever come 1:03:48 up with. like that that there is 1:03:50 something beyond any other kind of value 1:03:53 that you attribute to the connection you 1:03:55 have to this no matter how finite it is 1:03:58 because a 100 years from now no one you 1:04:00 love will be here and no one who loves 1:04:02 you will be here so this is finite we're 1:04:04 losing everything all the time and I say 1:04:07 that as a divorce lawyer for 25 years 1:04:08 and I say it as a hospice volunteer for 1:04:10 20 years like we're losing everything 1:04:12 all the time that's what makes it 1:04:15 precious that's what makes it beautiful 1:04:18 that's what makes it worth paying 1:04:20 attention to because I don't have 1:04:23 unlimited time. Guess what? We don't 1:04:25 have unlimited time with anything in our 1:04:28 life. So, why wouldn't we just commit to 1:04:31 like this much preventative maintenance? 1:04:33 >> Well, you do have this really beautiful 1:04:37 chapter later in the book, How to Stay 1:04:40 in Love, that's all about writing a 1:04:42 letter. 1:04:43 >> Oh, okay. Yeah. 1:04:44 >> And this is on page 238. 1:04:48 And you talk about the power of writing 1:04:51 a letter to the person that you're in a 1:04:53 relationship with, a really deep 1:04:55 personal letter. Would it be weird to 1:04:58 write a letter to someone you've shared 1:04:59 a bed with for years, whom you see and 1:05:01 talk to dozens of times a day? Even for 1:05:04 those who can find the right words when 1:05:06 speaking, writing things out may help 1:05:08 you to better organize. I I Why am I 1:05:11 getting emotional? 1:05:13 >> To better organize and hence understand 1:05:15 what you really want to say. 1:05:18 Even if you end up not writing the 1:05:19 letter to your partner, I know mediators 1:05:23 who encourage their clients to come to 1:05:24 the first meeting with the letter to 1:05:26 their ex to be because it quote 1:05:29 lubricates communication as one put it 1:05:31 to me. If at least some people in the 1:05:34 midst of divorce can do that, it should 1:05:37 be way easier for those in love knowing 1:05:40 that their partner is receptive to maybe 1:05:42 even hungry for communication and 1:05:44 intimacy. Anything that might ease 1:05:47 communication in a divorce should apply 1:05:50 far more effectively in a loving 1:05:52 relationship. Write a letter to your 1:05:55 partner. List at least five things they 1:05:58 do that you appreciate. Tell them a few 1:06:00 things they do that upset you. Tell them 1:06:02 what you are craving but not getting 1:06:04 from them. Tell them a few things you 1:06:07 are getting and are incredibly grateful 1:06:09 for. Tell them a story from your shared 1:06:12 history in as much detail as you can 1:06:14 that you remember fondly. Maybe write a 1:06:17 mini chronicle of your marriage. It's 1:06:20 been said that the unexamined life is 1:06:22 not worth living. My experience has 1:06:24 taught me that the unexamined marriage 1:06:27 is not sustainable. So write your spouse 1:06:29 a letter. Make it simple or make it 1:06:32 detailed, but make it authentic and 1:06:35 honest. You love him, right? 1:06:38 >> Yeah. 1:06:40 Yeah, I I stand by that. You know, it's 1:06:43 what I didn't say in there and I think 1:06:45 is worth saying is 1:06:47 even if you don't give it to your 1:06:49 spouse, it's worth writing that letter. 1:06:52 Like I'll share with you, you know, when 1:06:53 my mom passed away 10 years ago after a 1:06:56 long battle with cancer, we had a 1:06:57 complicated relationship. 1:06:59 And I remember talking to my therapist 1:07:01 about it and saying like, you know, 1:07:02 there's so many things like I wanted to 1:07:04 say to her 1:07:05 >> that I didn't get to say because it just 1:07:07 wasn't, we just I don't know, it just 1:07:10 wasn't, you know, she was so ill and 1:07:11 there was just no opportunity to have 1:07:13 that conversation. 1:07:14 >> And he said, you know, write her a 1:07:16 letter like write her a letter and say 1:07:18 all the things that you needed to say. 1:07:21 So I did. I took the time. I wrote this 1:07:24 long letter saying all the things I 1:07:26 needed to say and I brought it into 1:07:28 therapy and I read it out loud weeping. 1:07:32 And then he said, "I'm going to give you 1:07:33 another piece of homework." And I said, 1:07:35 "Okay." He said, "Write a letter back 1:07:37 from her 1:07:39 >> and say all the things you needed to 1:07:41 hear." 1:07:44 That was much harder 1:07:47 because it forced me to think about like 1:07:51 what is it? What is it I needed from 1:07:53 this person? Like what is it I needed to 1:07:56 hear to heal? And so even though like 1:07:59 she never got to read that letter and 1:08:00 even though the letter I wrote from her 1:08:03 was from an imagined version of her. 1:08:06 >> Yeah. 1:08:06 >> It was one of the most powerful 1:08:08 exercises I've ever and I' I've since 1:08:10 then used that technique in my life when 1:08:14 I'm having a really difficult time with 1:08:16 a person in my life where I'll I'll 1:08:18 write a letter of all the things that I 1:08:20 feel like I needed to say to them. often 1:08:23 not that I would ever give them. And 1:08:25 then I'll write back like what is it I 1:08:27 needed to hear from them? What is it I 1:08:29 want to hear from them? What would be 1:08:30 their perfect response to this? And very 1:08:32 often like it reminds me that the 1:08:35 answers to these things are sometimes 1:08:37 inside me. Like like the wisdom you find 1:08:39 on mountain tops is the wisdom you 1:08:41 brought up there because sometimes you 1:08:43 just find yourself thinking like you 1:08:46 know what is it I needed her to say 1:08:48 because I know I don't have to hear her 1:08:50 say it. I knew it. You know, I I when I 1:08:52 wrote the letter back from my mom, a lot 1:08:54 of it was, "Hey, I wasn't mad at you. 1:08:56 I've been sick for a really long time." 1:08:58 Like, and I was in pain and it wasn't 1:09:00 you. And even [snorts] though she never 1:09:02 got to say that, I thought, 1:09:04 >> "Oh, you know that." 1:09:06 >> Like, you know that or you couldn't have 1:09:08 written it if you didn't know it. But 1:09:10 just writing it, the act of writing it 1:09:13 and giving it voice and reading it out 1:09:16 loud even if there was no one else in 1:09:17 the room. So, writing a letter to anyone 1:09:20 in your life you're having a challenge 1:09:22 with, writing a letter back from them 1:09:24 with what it is you need to hear from 1:09:25 them, even if you never do anything with 1:09:27 that, you never edit it and give it to 1:09:30 the person or anything like that, you're 1:09:32 just framing in your head what's really 1:09:35 going on here inside of me. because I'm 1:09:39 in here. Like, this is what's amazing to 1:09:41 me about marriage is 1:09:43 I feel like after 53 years of walking 1:09:46 around on this planet and 20 in therapy, 1:09:50 I get myself like 75%. 1:09:53 Okay? And I'm in here 1:09:56 like I'm in here and I get about what 1:09:59 hope do I have of understanding 100% of 1:10:03 the person sitting across the table from 1:10:05 me or laying in the bed next to me? I'm 1:10:08 in here and I get 75% of it and I'm 1:10:12 going to get mad at myself cuz I don't 1:10:13 understand this person 100% and get them 1:10:17 what they need 100%. I don't get me what 1:10:19 I need 100% of the time. I don't get me 1:10:21 what I need 50% of the time. I screw it 1:10:23 up constantly. And they go, "Why did you 1:10:25 do that to yourself?" Give ourselves and 1:10:27 each other some grace. And just realize 1:10:29 that listen, this is just about 1:10:33 understanding ourselves. What we need, 1:10:35 what we want. this person have helping 1:10:38 them understand what they need, what 1:10:39 they want, and then figuring out how to 1:10:41 do that dance. 1:10:43 >> If you had to save a marriage with one 1:10:45 thing, what would it be? 1:10:47 >> I think the most important way to save a 1:10:49 marriage is to pay attention. 1:10:52 I think we just stop paying attention. 1:10:54 Like, whoever discovered water, it 1:10:55 wasn't a fish. When you're in it, you 1:10:58 just stop seeing it. And I think there's 1:11:01 so much going on that you just don't 1:11:04 see. And I think if you paid attention, 1:11:09 you you might see like you might step 1:11:12 out of the water and see. And I think 1:11:17 because marriage is very often about 1:11:20 this deep kind of proximity, 1:11:22 >> it becomes the water. Like it just 1:11:24 becomes this thing that's around you all 1:11:26 the time. And and you stop seeing it. 1:11:29 And I I think if you paid attention 1:11:32 to what's going on inside of you and to 1:11:36 what's going on with this person, I 1:11:39 think most things the solution comes 1:11:42 from that first step. 1:11:45 >> That's I think the most beautiful answer 1:11:48 I've ever heard about 1:11:49 >> thanks 1:11:50 >> a marriage. And of course I love David 1:11:52 Foster Wallace. 1:11:53 >> Yeah. So good. So good. I actually 1:11:56 reread that essay like quite often 1:11:59 because I 1:12:00 >> I actually think it's fascinating how 1:12:02 often I have to be reminded of that. 1:12:04 >> You know, if you don't know the essay 1:12:06 we're talking about, which became this 1:12:08 very very viral um graduation speech 1:12:11 that David Foster Wallace, the writer, 1:12:14 gave before he died 1:12:15 >> at Kenyon University. Yeah. Yeah. It's 1:12:17 out there. I think it's called This is 1:12:18 Water. They published it as something 1:12:19 called this is water, but you can 1:12:21 actually watch video of it. 1:12:22 >> And there's this poignant moment the 1:12:24 essay hangs on where two fish are 1:12:27 swimming and they pass another fish and 1:12:30 one of them says the other, "Hey, how's 1:12:32 the water?" And he says, "What's water?" 1:12:34 >> Yeah. 1:12:35 >> And then it unravels into this 1:12:38 unbelievably 1:12:40 profound essay about how much of life 1:12:44 you're missing because you're just not 1:12:46 present. And the thing that was 1:12:48 beautiful about that essay is I think he 1:12:50 he realized something that that maybe 1:12:53 not every person who's writing the story 1:12:56 in their head realizes, which is you 1:12:59 could just as easily cast the characters 1:13:01 as villains or heroes. And you know, he 1:13:05 talks about in the essay how like the 1:13:07 person in line in front of you, you 1:13:10 know, who's like in a bad mood, you can 1:13:11 just say, "Oh, they're an awful person." 1:13:13 or like maybe they have a sick relative 1:13:15 at home and this is like the only minute 1:13:17 that they managed to get out and they're 1:13:18 so stressed and and he's like and if you 1:13:20 just reframe like it's just as easy to 1:13:23 tell yourself that story as it is to 1:13:26 tell yourself the story where they're 1:13:27 the villain and you're the hero. If if 1:13:30 you judge me as a parent by my greatest 1:13:34 moment of parenting, you're giving me 1:13:36 too much credit. And if you judge me as 1:13:37 a parent by my weakest, worst moment as 1:13:40 a parent, you're not giving me enough 1:13:41 credit. I'm really kind of the aggregate 1:13:43 of all of those things. Well, that's a 1:13:45 lesson to bring to your marriage because 1:13:46 in your marriage, anytime someone tells 1:13:48 me the story of their life and they're 1:13:50 the hero of the story, I'm instantly 1:13:52 skeptical. Well, that's a really good 1:13:53 insight because we all have that friend, 1:13:55 particularly the one going through a 1:13:56 divorce where the narrative is evil, 1:13:59 evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, 1:14:01 because you're hurt, 1:14:02 >> of course, 1:14:03 >> and there's no selfawareness to say, 1:14:06 well, you know, 1:14:07 >> I haven't been affectionate in three 1:14:09 years, so I can kind of see how the door 1:14:11 opened up for them to walk away or find 1:14:14 somebody else or I really have some 1:14:16 reflecting. There's and what I just 1:14:18 going back to that essay and the moment 1:14:20 in the essay of not seeing the water and 1:14:23 also you can choose to write a story 1:14:26 about the rude person. 1:14:28 >> Yeah. 1:14:28 >> It goes back to the original thing that 1:14:30 you said. You always have the 1:14:31 opportunity to remind yourself 1:14:33 >> Yeah. 1:14:34 >> that a really good relationship is one 1:14:36 is where you can be in the narrative. 1:14:40 This is my favorite person. 1:14:41 >> Yeah. 1:14:42 >> Even if they're pissing me off right 1:14:43 now. 1:14:44 >> Yeah. Even if I have a lot of evidence 1:14:46 for the things that have gone wrong, 1:14:48 even if I'm scared we're headed for 1:14:50 divorce, I can still 1:14:53 stand in a narrative that this is my 1:14:55 favorite person, I at least remember a 1:14:57 time when they were. 1:14:58 >> Yeah. And and what are what are the core 1:15:00 components of that beauty that you saw 1:15:03 in them? 1:15:04 >> Yes. 1:15:05 >> That are still there? If they've 1:15:07 changed, what changed them? Because it's 1:15:10 rarely like a nefarious thing, right? 1:15:13 like you know if I let myself get out of 1:15:17 shape it's not that I I was like oh I 1:15:19 really want to be in bad shape you know 1:15:21 like when my mom was actively on hospice 1:15:24 I gained 30 lbs 1:15:26 >> because I took such like pleasure like 1:15:30 everything hurt it felt like so I would 1:15:32 eat dinner every night and I would just 1:15:34 eat anything I would eat like delicious 1:15:36 because it just gave me like a moment of 1:15:38 sensory pleasure and I remember like 1:15:43 people who I knew but only knew casually 1:15:44 through work being like oh Jim you've 1:15:46 been you putting on a couple pound I 1:15:47 just remember like it hurts so badly 1:15:50 because I wanted to say to them like do 1:15:51 you understand this is the only thing I 1:15:55 have right now 1:15:56 >> like is that food tastes good like 1:15:59 everything else hurts right now and I I 1:16:02 feel like if we looked at our partners 1:16:03 and went okay this even if they're not 1:16:06 currently my favorite person they were 1:16:09 >> I think it's a really important tool 1:16:11 that I want to make sure is you're 1:16:12 listening and watching you land the 1:16:15 plane on that one. 1:16:16 >> Yeah. 1:16:16 >> And understand that it's a tool, which 1:16:18 is if you're in a patch in your 1:16:20 relationship where things are really 1:16:22 challenging. 1:16:23 >> Okay. Um or you hear that phrase, you're 1:16:27 my favorite person because I ran to the 1:16:31 bathroom and bumped into somebody that 1:16:33 was coming out of the bathroom like, "Oh 1:16:35 my god, James is unbelievable." You and 1:16:37 he can boil relationships down to one 1:16:40 sentence. You're my favorite person. 1:16:42 Yeah. 1:16:42 >> And the person coming out of the 1:16:44 bathroom looked at me and said, "Oh my 1:16:45 god, that's hard." 1:16:46 >> I think it's hard because 1:16:50 I think it's scary to think 1:16:53 that no one could love us that way. 1:16:55 >> And it's also scary to think that anyone 1:16:57 could. 1:17:00 >> I I think those are equally terrifying. 1:17:02 [laughter] 1:17:03 Like as a human being, I I find both of 1:17:05 those things terrifying. I find the 1:17:07 prospect that I could ever feel that way 1:17:11 about another person and I would know 1:17:13 I'm going to someday lose them 1:17:16 >> is terrifying. And to consider the 1:17:18 possibility that someone could actually 1:17:20 know me, all of the stuff in me and go, 1:17:26 "No, you're my favorite person." Like to 1:17:29 me, like that's I mean, there's nothing 1:17:32 more incredible than the possibility of 1:17:34 that. When I look back at my life, 1:17:37 every single thing that meant anything 1:17:39 was some connection to another person, 1:17:42 someone I loved, someone who loved me, a 1:17:44 moment where I felt loved truly and 1:17:48 deeply for who I am, where I felt joy 1:17:50 for being in the presence of someone who 1:17:52 loved me or who I loved. When I felt joy 1:17:55 of just being in the presence of love. 1:17:58 Like as a hospice volunteer, I will tell 1:18:00 you nobody I've ever done hospice visits 1:18:02 with wants to talk about the fact that 1:18:04 they're dying. It's not that 1:18:05 interesting. It's something that they're 1:18:06 confronting all the time. They're aware 1:18:08 of it. They don't want to talk about it. 1:18:10 They don't need to talk about it. It's 1:18:11 their present reality. They want to talk 1:18:13 about their life. They want to talk 1:18:14 about the people they love. They're not 1:18:16 that interested in the things they 1:18:18 owned. Like they're they're interested 1:18:20 in the connections they made, the impact 1:18:23 they made, and when they were loved. 1:18:26 Like feeling loved I think is the most 1:18:29 powerful thing in the world. And there 1:18:31 are a lot of people who don't feel loved 1:18:33 ever in their life. And sometimes that's 1:18:36 their circumstance. And sometimes it's 1:18:38 that they they haven't had the real 1:18:41 courage it takes to let someone see the 1:18:46 truth of you. 1:18:48 >> From your bestselling book, How to Stay 1:18:49 in Love. This is page 248. 1:18:53 When is the last time you and your 1:18:54 spouse discussed what it specifically 1:18:56 means to be happy and how you each 1:18:59 define that term? When was the last time 1:19:01 you discussed in specific terms what a 1:19:04 satisfying sex life is for each of you? 1:19:07 These should be conversations you look 1:19:08 forward to. They're about being happy 1:19:10 and about for sake. 1:19:13 You're married. That means you're in the 1:19:15 same car, driving on the same road. 1:19:18 Logic says you should be headed toward 1:19:20 the same destination. Are you who 1:19:23 selected that destination? Is it where 1:19:26 you both want to get? Is it one of you 1:19:29 crawling out the back window while the 1:19:32 other one plows ahead blindly? 1:19:35 >> Yeah. 1:19:36 Yeah. I think we we don't ask enough 1:19:39 questions about what's going on in our 1:19:41 relationships. I mean, in terms of where 1:19:43 are we going, like what's the story 1:19:45 we're writing together? You know, you'd 1:19:47 never I live in New York City. You'd 1:19:48 never get in a cab and just go drive, 1:19:51 you know? you you say where it is you 1:19:52 want to go and then you can have a 1:19:54 conversation about what's the best way 1:19:55 to get there. But you know to some 1:19:58 degree we we learn about relationships 1:20:01 by watching our parents or the 1:20:03 environment we grew up in and [snorts] 1:20:06 by watching popular media and now by 1:20:08 watching curated images on social media. 1:20:11 So those are the three ways to do it. I 1:20:13 don't think any of those is a 1:20:15 particularly honest or great teacher 1:20:17 necessarily. And you know 1:20:21 marriage is very much rooted in 1:20:24 tradition. And tradition 1:20:27 I think is is really two things in 1:20:31 varying measure. It's the wisdom of the 1:20:33 people who came before us and what they 1:20:35 have to teach us. And it's peer pressure 1:20:38 exerted by dead people. When you're 1:20:40 doing something because it's tradition 1:20:43 like why did you get married? Well, my 1:20:45 mom and dad got married and my 1:20:46 grandparents got married. My 1:20:47 great-grandmother got married. And by 1:20:48 the way, the reason your 1:20:49 great-grandmother got married is cuz her 1:20:51 mother got married, right? So your great 1:20:52 great great grandmother got married. 1:20:54 Okay. Your great great great grandmother 1:20:56 used a buggy whip. Do you have a buggy 1:20:57 whip? Like are all the technologies that 1:21:00 made Did she have the entire sum total 1:21:03 of human wisdom available in a device 1:21:06 held in her hand that comes from the 1:21:09 sky? Because that's incredible. Like she 1:21:12 lived in a different universe than the 1:21:14 one you navigate on a daily basis. Why 1:21:16 would you think the technology of 1:21:18 marriage that worked for her will work 1:21:20 for you the same way with the same 1:21:22 tools? And all you need to do is watch 1:21:24 how this was done in this apprenticeship 1:21:26 model of figuring out what marriage 1:21:28 looks like. Your relationship, your 1:21:30 rules, the two of you. It's the only two 1:21:32 people that matter is the two of you. 1:21:35 Are you happy? The two of you. Do you 1:21:37 have a rhythm that works for you? You 1:21:39 know, I I I posted something a couple of 1:21:42 weeks ago where I was talking about how 1:21:44 I personally don't understand why people 1:21:46 sleep in the same bed. Just for me, I 1:21:48 just don't get it. Like two adults and 1:21:50 two dogs, it's a lot in a bed. Like, I'm 1:21:52 not saying 1:21:53 >> Well, you also have a broken nose, so 1:21:55 you probably are a big snorer 1:21:57 time snorer. You do not want to be in 1:21:59 that bed. And the truth is, like, if you 1:22:01 think about it, like, hey, listen, like, 1:22:03 spend time in bed, have fun in bed, all 1:22:04 those things, but then go sleep in your 1:22:05 own bed like a civilized person. Now 1:22:07 again, this is my personal feeling. 1:22:10 People had a lot of feelings about this. 1:22:12 It had hundreds of thousands of 1:22:14 comments. 1:22:14 >> Why do you think people had a lot of 1:22:16 feelings about that? 1:22:17 >> Because I I think people hear anyone 1:22:22 saying here's what's important in my 1:22:24 relationship as you're doing it wrong in 1:22:28 your relationship. And all I'm actually 1:22:31 trying to get anyone to do is just let's 1:22:33 all come out of the closet a little bit. 1:22:35 like let's all come out and say you know 1:22:38 my spouse and I do this it works for us 1:22:41 because it once you start doing that 1:22:44 everybody at the table starts to go oh 1:22:47 yeah we do that too me that's the best 1:22:50 stuff in life is that that intimacy is 1:22:53 those little tiny shared private joys 1:22:56 like that's the coolest most wonderful 1:22:58 thing we don't share that with each 1:23:00 other and by the way it's not for public 1:23:01 consumption necessarily but just sharing 1:23:04 that like give it a shot and see like 1:23:06 that might be the cure for the 1:23:09 disconnection between the two of you is 1:23:10 to be silly sometimes together. Or maybe 1:23:13 you know it really is like well we have 1:23:15 to sleep in the same bed. Who told you 1:23:17 you have to sleep in the same bed? Maybe 1:23:18 you are the kind of people that would be 1:23:20 more comfortable sleeping in separate 1:23:21 beds or maybe one of you or both of you 1:23:23 think it's really important to be in the 1:23:25 cave together curled up holding each 1:23:27 other. Like all that matters is the two 1:23:29 of you coming up with rules that make 1:23:31 sense for you. Who cares how many times 1:23:33 a week I have sex? How many times a week 1:23:36 do the two of you feel satisfied with 1:23:38 having sex? If it's good enough for the 1:23:40 two of you, no one else's business. It's 1:23:42 no one else's business. 1:23:43 >> Well, I think the reason why people get 1:23:46 so offended by that opinion. 1:23:49 >> Yeah. 1:23:50 >> Is that if you're honest with yourself, 1:23:53 you're clinging to very surface level 1:23:56 pieces of evidence 1:23:58 >> of connection. 1:23:59 >> Yeah. We're doing great. 1:24:00 the ring of the finger or the fact that 1:24:02 we're in the same bed 1:24:04 >> that that means you're connected. And 1:24:06 when somebody erupts, 1:24:08 >> it's because you're showing us all 1:24:13 >> that connection is actually something 1:24:14 else. 1:24:15 >> And again, like I love that because the 1:24:18 truth is we live in a symbolic world. 1:24:21 >> I as humans, we're constantly making 1:24:23 meaning. We live in a symbolic world. 1:24:25 Like why do I wear a tie? Why do I wear 1:24:27 a suit? Like, why couldn't I just go to 1:24:29 court in jeans and a t-shirt? Like, I I 1:24:31 wear this suit for a reason. When you 1:24:33 wear a Why do you wear a suit to a job 1:24:34 interview or a funeral or a wedding? Cuz 1:24:37 you're saying this suit is a statement. 1:24:39 The statement is I take this seriously. 1:24:42 This thing I'm doing, I take it very 1:24:43 seriously. And what you're what you 1:24:45 taught us today or what you taught me is 1:24:48 that the symbols of I'm sleeping in a 1:24:52 bed or I have a ring on my finger or 1:24:54 we've been together for 32 years. 1:24:57 >> That's actually not the symbol of 1:24:58 connection. No, 1:24:59 >> it's do you show up and treat somebody 1:25:02 as if they're your favorite person. 1:25:04 >> Yeah. Yeah. Because here's what I'll 1:25:06 tell you and it's a hot take and it's an 1:25:08 unfalsifiable premise so it's safe. 1:25:10 I genuinely believe that the connection 1:25:12 that you have with Chris and that many 1:25:15 of the very happily married people that 1:25:17 I know, if you took off the ring, if you 1:25:21 took away the government's involvement, 1:25:23 they would still be two people who were 1:25:25 each other's favorite person and loved 1:25:27 each other more than anything and wanted 1:25:30 to stay together forever. Not because 1:25:32 they were afraid of giving away half 1:25:33 their things or because but because 1:25:35 their life is better because this person 1:25:38 is next to them. And to me, that's worth 1:25:42 fighting for. That's worth building. 1:25:44 That's the thing worth protecting if you 1:25:46 lucky enough to have found it. Like I 1:25:49 say sometimes, marriage is like the 1:25:51 lottery. You're probably not going to 1:25:54 win. But if you win, what you win is so 1:25:58 fantastic. 1:25:59 Why wouldn't you buy a ticket? Why 1:26:01 wouldn't you try? Why wouldn't you? And 1:26:03 unlike the lottery, there are very 1:26:05 specific practical things you can do 1:26:08 that will increase the chances of you 1:26:10 succeeding at this thing. And they're 1:26:12 not difficult. They don't mean require 1:26:15 you to buy anything. They don't require 1:26:17 grand gestures, which is by the way why 1:26:18 you're not hearing about it from 1:26:20 advertisers cuz there's nothing to buy. 1:26:21 There's no course to take. There's 1:26:23 nothing like it's all stuff you already 1:26:26 naturally know how to do and what to do 1:26:29 cuz it's all the same things that if 1:26:30 someone did it for you, it would make 1:26:32 you feel seen and loved and heard and 1:26:34 important. 1:26:36 >> James Stton, what are your parting 1:26:38 words? 1:26:40 >> Oh my gosh, you're going to get me 1:26:41 speechless. 1:26:44 I I think my parting words are, you 1:26:46 know, love each other fearlessly. 1:26:50 It's the bravest thing in the world. 1:26:51 like it's the bravest and best thing in 1:26:53 the world. And 1:26:57 I genuinely believe that we're worthy of 1:27:00 love. I genuinely believe almost 1:27:03 everything we do every day is to find 1:27:07 love, be worthy of love, and keep love. 1:27:11 And I think it boils down to 1:27:15 two words and four words. 1:27:18 pay attention 1:27:20 and you're my favorite person. 1:27:25 >> I cannot tell you how completely floored 1:27:30 I am. 1:27:31 >> Thanks 1:27:32 >> by you. I I feel so grateful 1:27:36 >> thanks 1:27:37 >> that you are doing the work that you're 1:27:39 doing. I got I I'm so moved by 1:27:42 everything that you shared and even just 1:27:45 pay attention and you're my favorite 1:27:46 person. Yeah, 1:27:48 >> those are two things that are going to 1:27:50 immediately 1:27:51 improve and deepen my relationship with 1:27:54 Chris because it's a skill that we have 1:27:57 to continue. It's the rep 1:27:59 >> that you do in a relationship. 1:28:00 >> But I think you know what what you're 1:28:02 standing in like awe of and moved by is 1:28:06 what's inside you. Like it's the 1:28:08 feelings inside of you for Chris and for 1:28:11 the people in your life that you love 1:28:13 and the love that of theirs that you 1:28:16 feel towards you and how that makes you 1:28:19 view yourself because you know it's 1:28:21 authentic and real that love and and if 1:28:24 you can love yourself the way that those 1:28:27 people love you like that's the greatest 1:28:30 superpower ever. And so like I I think 1:28:32 this is just what love's supposed to be 1:28:35 is that we bring this out in each other. 1:28:37 We bring out in each other. 1:28:39 >> Yes. 1:28:39 >> What's in there? 1:28:41 >> Yeah. 1:28:41 >> That's all. 1:28:42 >> Yeah. Well, thank you for um absolutely 1:28:47 everything. 1:28:47 >> Thanks for having me. It's great to see 1:28:49 you. It's great to It's It's great to 1:28:50 stand in the presence of it when people 1:28:52 like there's so much that I have to 1:28:55 learn from people like you and Chris who 1:28:58 have maintained that connection. And I 1:29:01 feel like for me there's tremendous 1:29:03 value when I get to talk about these 1:29:04 things because I'm learning it. It's 1:29:07 moving me in the same way. You know, 1:29:09 like this is all I could I could say 1:29:11 this every day and I would still lose 1:29:13 the plot sometimes. So, 1:29:14 >> well, I'll tell you one thing that 1:29:15 really struck me is when you said, ask 1:29:17 yourself if you're in one of those 1:29:19 moments in your relationship, what's 1:29:21 changed? And if I look back on the 1:29:23 period of time where Chris and I really 1:29:25 struggled Yeah. And you can point at the 1:29:28 stress of life and the financial 1:29:29 pressure we were under and just 1:29:31 everything that was going on. But what 1:29:34 we've now really realized is that a lot 1:29:37 of what 1:29:39 changed was that his father died. 1:29:41 >> Yeah. 1:29:42 >> In the middle of it. 1:29:43 >> Yeah. 1:29:43 >> And it's only recently, and this would 1:29:45 have been 19 years ago, I mean, that he 1:29:48 really understand how that just changed 1:29:52 him. And I didn't see it. 1:29:53 >> Yeah. and grief, you know, sneaks up on 1:29:55 you. And especially too when when like 1:29:57 Chris, you you navigate the terrain of 1:29:59 that, like it's a familiar terrain, 1:30:02 >> you sort of feel like, oh, I'm I'm 1:30:04 exempt from it. Like a physician who's 1:30:06 like when they get ill. Yeah. 1:30:08 >> You know, but it's like, no, no, no. 1:30:09 Like this is different like experiencing 1:30:11 it outside of the connection of self and 1:30:14 family and it puts yourself in the where 1:30:16 you stand in the history of things and 1:30:18 you know, it's all sort of impermanence 1:30:20 at the end of the day. But I have to 1:30:21 tell you, I I think again, if you pay 1:30:23 attention, 1:30:25 it all of that is there. Like all I I've 1:30:28 learned firsthand as a as a divorce 1:30:30 trial lawyer for almost three decades 1:30:32 now how much ugliness and anger is in 1:30:36 all of us. And I've also learned how 1:30:39 much beauty is in all of us. And I I try 1:30:43 in my relationship with the world to 1:30:46 bring what I think people bring in a 1:30:48 good marriage, which is 1:30:50 >> they cling to the possibility of the 1:30:52 good in us and they try to overlook the 1:30:55 possibility of the fool in us. 1:30:57 >> And there's nothing to me more beautiful 1:30:59 than that. 1:31:00 >> Well, James Sexton, thank you for 1:31:02 showing us what to pay attention to. 1:31:04 >> Thank you. 1:31:05 >> So we can experience all the 1:31:07 possibilities that love and 1:31:08 relationships have for us. And I also 1:31:11 want to thank you. Thank you for making 1:31:13 the time to listen to or watch this 1:31:16 conversation. I know you feel so moved. 1:31:21 I hope you will share this generously. I 1:31:23 hope you've already shared it with your 1:31:25 favorite person. And in case no one else 1:31:28 tells you today, as your friend, I want 1:31:30 to tell you that I love you and I 1:31:31 believe in you. And I believe in your 1:31:33 ability to create a better life. And I 1:31:35 know based on everything that I was 1:31:37 reminded of, everything that James 1:31:39 taught us today that I have tools to 1:31:42 [music] create a better life because 1:31:44 this is going to lead to more love, 1:31:46 better relationships, [music] 1:31:47 and we all deserve that. All righty, 1:31:49 I'll see you in the very next episode. 1:31:50 I'm going to welcome you in the moment 1:31:52 you hit play. Thank you for watching all 1:31:54 the way to the end. I [music] love this. 1:31:55 I know you did, too. And thank you for 1:31:57 sharing this with people that you love. 1:31:58 We all need to hear this advice. [music] 1:32:01 And I know you want to know what's the 1:32:02 next video you should watch cuz you love 1:32:04 this one so much. I think you're going 1:32:06 to love this and I'll welcome you 1:32:07 [music] in the moment you hit play.