0:00 like studio out groups that works with 0:02 Netflix making the show. The show is 0:04 called You Find a Mechanic and you're 0:06 like, I need to release something and 0:08 I'll make a million dollars. But 0:09 finally, I got I got a job at Pixar. I 0:11 got to work on But don't tell anybody. 0:13 That's Yeah, I won't tell anybody. I 0:14 don't think anyone listening or watching 0:16 will tell anyone. So, it's our secret. 0:19 Hey, this is the question we should have 0:21 talked about. We're talking about it 0:22 right now. From Pixar to Epic Games to 0:25 blowing up Fortnite with a pizza tycoon 0:27 map, today's guest is the guy behind 0:30 some of the wildest builds in UEFN. And 0:33 yeah, he kind of broke the internet a 0:35 few times. Welcome to the Creative Juice 0:37 podcast, the spot where we talk to 0:39 builders, the tinkerers, the people 0:41 turning ideas into playable magic inside 0:43 of Fortnite. In this episode, we're 0:45 talking to Tom Jenk, the dude who went 0:48 from working at Pixar to creating viral 0:50 UEFN warm-ups, cracking the code on TMNT 0:54 tycoons, and finding ways to stand out 0:56 in a space that consistently shifting. 0:58 We are breaking down the grind, the 1:00 mindset, the failures that hurt, and the 1:03 winds that change everything. Whether 1:05 you're a creator, a brand, an IP trying 1:08 to understand what's really happening in 1:10 this ecosystem, chasing your next idea, 1:12 or just looking for real talk from 1:14 someone who's been through it, this 1:16 episode is for you. This is Creative 1:21 Juice. All right. How's it going, Tom 1:23 Jake? How you been? Good. Good. Good. 1:25 Been busy, but uh having fun. Awesome, 1:28 man. Thank you for being the second 1:30 guest of Creative Juice podcast. Like 1:32 super excited to have you. I know we've 1:33 this has kind of been in the works a 1:35 little bit. We've been talking this for 1:36 a long time and super excited to have 1:38 you as a guest and you've just been a 1:40 trailblazer in this space and you have a 1:42 fun way of telling stories and just uh 1:46 you have a good personality and and 1:47 comedic so I think this will be a fun 1:49 time. A stop it. No. 1:52 Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. But yeah, 1:55 we'll um let's just get started. Yeah, 1:58 man. So, um, these first few questions 2:00 are about kind of background and your 2:02 personal journey. I really want to ask 2:03 this question about like your early 2:05 inspirations. We all got into gaming 2:07 somehow. So, what early gaming 2:10 experiences and influences sparked your 2:12 passion for gaming and eventually led 2:14 you to explore Fortnite Creative? I 2:16 mean, definitely my first ever 2:17 experience with gaming that I can 2:19 remember was Pokemon on the Game Boy 2:22 Color. All right. I I have an older 2:24 brother, three years older than me. He 2:26 got Pokemon Blue and I got Pokemon Red 2:29 and we just we would play it through 2:31 every car trip. Like I would just be 2:34 doing this. I'd have there's like that 2:36 was before they had back lights on 2:37 things. I have to like plug in with this 2:39 little light and I'm trying to like plug 2:41 it trying to play it. But I mean it was 2:44 awesome. I've got a soft spot for 2:45 Pokemon and that all that. And so that 2:47 was like kind of the initial gaming like 2:50 and kind of Nintendo was the main for a 2:52 long time until maybe high school. We 2:55 got N64, Gamecube, all those were were 2:58 the top for me like Melee like played so 3:01 much so much of that and so always been 3:04 a big fan. 3:06 Same. I kind of grew up in the Nintendo 3:08 era as well. Gamecube is the best. Like 3:11 a controller that might be one of the 3:13 best controllers ever. Hasn't been 3:15 topped still yet. No. And I saw it's 3:18 coming out for the new Switch, so 3:19 that'll be interesting. Have you played 3:21 N64? Have you touched the N64 controller 3:24 recently? I have. I went home. It is 3:27 wild how awful that controller is. Why 3:29 does it have three spikes? Like I don't 3:32 have three hands. Like I remember when I 3:34 was younger, I'd like have to like when 3:36 you're playing Zelda, you have to like 3:38 switch to get the C buttons. 3:40 Yeah. Do Ocarina of Time playing that 3:42 flute. Yeah. Yeah. I my brain when I was 3:46 little this was the best controller and 3:47 I I remember playing playing like Golden 3:49 Iris I was like oh man we've come a long 3:51 way the weird you have to like stop and 3:54 like aim the controller to to get it to 3:57 work. No dude that that's awesome. Did 4:01 are you So when you moved from like 4:03 Nintendo what was your next like 4:05 console? Uh PlayStation. Got a 4:07 PlayStation in high school. Was that 4:10 PS2? PlayStation 3 actually. Three. 4:13 Yeah. I actually never had a PlayStation 4:14 2. Um, though I hear it's very good, but 4:17 I I PlayStation 3 I mean my my favorite 4:20 games in those were like the Uncharted 4:22 series. I've ever since I was younger, 4:23 I've been into like cinematics like like 4:26 stories and like big cinematic moments 4:28 and Uncharted just nailed it in like I 4:32 remember playing it on my home TV and my 4:34 parents would walk up and be like, "Are 4:36 you watching a movie? Is that are you 4:38 playing? Wait, is that a game or a 4:39 movie?" Like they were so confused 4:41 because it did such a good job getting 4:43 that seamless like playing and those 4:45 cinematic moments. For sure. Now if you 4:47 would look at it though, like what is 4:48 this all? 4:50 Hey, the fourth one was great. The 4:52 newest ones. I'm excited for their next 4:55 stuff. No, for sure. For sure, man. 4:57 Those were like h the good times. Good 5:00 times. Yeah. I actually So the 5:03 ultimately I never actually I didn't get 5:04 into Fortnite until I started UFN. I uh 5:09 interesting. I played it for maybe two 5:11 hours before then. My brother needed 5:14 someone to play with him for a Christmas 5:16 event. So, my rarest skin, my OG skin is 5:20 the like Christmas tree Jonesy. That's 5:23 like the only skin I have from that time 5:25 I played for like a little bit cuz I 5:27 opened up the package and got the skin. 5:30 And so, that is that's pretty much the 5:32 only like like time I played before. Uh, 5:35 I was much more into like COD, like if I 5:37 was doing a shooter. I mean, it's the 5:39 building. It's the building problem, 5:40 right? Like, yeah, that why they 5:42 introduced zero build. Like, I just 5:44 couldn't get into the building. Like, I 5:47 get why people enjoyed it once you got 5:48 really good at it, but I just didn't I I 5:51 like to jump around games and so the the 5:53 time commitment to learn the building 5:54 was just a whole another thing that I 5:56 was like, ah, I'll just play the other 5:57 hundred games where I can shoot someone 5:59 in a battle royale. I had the same thing 6:02 too. Call of Duty and I think World was 6:05 it World War II came out and it was just 6:07 like um the Call of Duty it wasn't the 6:08 best. I got super bored and like 6:10 Fortnite came out and I was like I 6:11 better let's see what it was like free 6:13 and my friends started playing that for 6:15 a while and then it kind of like it was 6:16 fun but yeah building was so hard but 6:20 back then everyone kind of stunk at 6:22 building so it was fun to learn with 6:24 them you know. Yeah. And then now even 6:26 now like oh my gosh it's it's so so 6:29 hard. It's a whole another I totally I 6:31 totally get it. I mean, ironically, the 6:34 game I played most kind of later on was 6:36 Minecraft. Like I played a lot of modded 6:39 Minecraft was kind of okay my like 6:42 because I got we didn't really have a 6:44 good PC growing up, but when I got to 6:46 college, I got a really nice PC because 6:48 I was doing animation and I was like, 6:51 "Oh, I'll try Minecraft." And I really 6:54 got super deep, wasted way too much time 6:57 doing modded Minecraft where it's like 6:58 these mod packs that add like crazy like 7:02 idle game mechanics and like just tons 7:05 of awesome stuff that you know just you 7:07 blink and it's been a day and you're 7:08 like 7:10 is that your start into like UGC a 7:12 little bit you think or kind of into the 7:14 building gaming world? Um, I've always 7:18 honestly my intro to gaming world was 7:21 when I was a kid and I tried to make uh 7:24 knockoff card games. Like I'd draw like 7:26 little like Pokemon cards but they were 7:28 like my own. I'd like cut out in card 7:31 stock that for me I've always wanted to 7:34 I always had wanted to make games. Um, 7:37 it was kind of on the edge of everything 7:39 but it never was real. And so when I got 7:43 to college, I started doing animation. 7:46 And I didn't even think about how close 7:47 that is to um gaming. And so for me, it 7:51 was more like I'm like, okay, I'm making 7:53 films was kind of more more of my focus 7:56 for digital. Very cool. I I definitely 7:58 have some questions on that coming up. I 8:00 want to I want to get into your time at 8:01 at Pixar and Netflix and stuff. So no, 8:03 that's that's super interesting for 8:06 sure. So here it is right on Q. Um, so 8:12 the next question is about animation and 8:14 into Fortnite. Thank you. Thank you for 8:15 the set. 8:18 U, so you made a major career leap from 8:20 working at studios like Pixar and 8:23 Netflix to becoming a full-time Fortnite 8:24 creator. What was the turning point that 8:27 pushed you over the edge? And how has 8:29 your background in animation influenced 8:31 the way you design and tell stories in 8:32 your maps, even though you just gave us 8:34 a little bit of that? Yeah. So kind of 8:36 how it it happened was I after I 8:38 graduated college I went to went through 8:41 a lot of different studios mostly film 8:43 focused things. So I I didn't work for 8:46 Netflix well not at Netflix it was one 8:49 of their like studio out groups that 8:51 works with Netflix making a show. The 8:53 show is called Oni. It's a really great 8:55 show that I wish did better on Netflix 8:57 but it's an animated kind of Japanese 8:59 story but it looks stopotiony. It's 9:01 really fun. Awesome. So I worked with 9:04 that and then but for me it was always 9:07 my direction was Pixar because I did an 9:09 internship at Pixar during college. I 9:12 then did another internship after 9:14 leaving college and I just never quite 9:16 got that full-time job because of just 9:18 the way jobs work and hiring is crazy 9:20 especially at Pixar. I mean because 9:22 they're I mean the Oh yeah, they have 9:25 the top people working there. And so, 9:27 but finally I got I got a job at Pixar 9:30 um and worked there for about a year 9:32 full-time work. I got to work on 9:33 Elemental and then um I said that's 9:37 awesome, dude. I love that movie and the 9:39 like animation is is incredible. Yeah, 9:42 it is a beautiful film and like so the 9:45 VFX is so cool. Like the the difficulty 9:48 of them having to have a main character 9:50 be a light source is just in of itself 9:53 night like a nightmare. But I I had so 9:55 much fun working on that project. But 9:56 the thing is is Pixar started to hit hit 9:58 some money stuff. Disney that was a 10:01 rough time and so I didn't get uh to 10:04 renew my contract for that year. They 10:06 were planning big layoffs in the future 10:08 that have already happened. And so it's 10:10 just like we can't hire you especially 10:13 when you'll probably get laid off when 10:15 you know it was a big blow. Like I it's 10:18 one of those things where these big 10:19 studios big studios will pretend like 10:21 you're the family. Like you're the 10:23 family. We're family. But you kind of 10:25 sometimes then get forget this a 10:27 business. And so I definitely was kind 10:29 of hurt afterwards, especially cuz I put 10:31 so much time focus into getting to 10:33 Pixar. But I mean, things like that 10:35 happen and then you're like, I'm so glad 10:36 it happened because I I didn't get 10:38 renewed at Pixar. So I ended up going to 10:41 nothing. I didn't have any. I was like, 10:43 I could go try to work for a Netflix 10:46 type thing again or apply to other big 10:48 studios, but I was just so sick of big 10:50 studios, like just dealing with execs 10:52 and dealing with like I always say that 10:55 I am sick I get sick of I don't want it 10:58 to be someone else's 11:00 uh fault for me failing. I like it when 11:03 it's my fault. And so I I don't have any 11:06 delusions that I'm going to be perfect 11:07 at at it all or I can always do it 11:10 better than these professional big 11:11 studios. But at the minimum, I know it 11:13 was my fault. I made the bad decision or 11:15 I cuz cuz a lot of the times you're 11:17 working at a big studio and you're like 11:19 the exec's like do this and you're like 11:20 but if I do this it'll break because of 11:22 this. No, no, do this cuz we want this 11:25 and it'll break and you have to do even 11:27 more work. It just I got sick of that 11:29 kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I 11:31 messed around with a couple other game 11:33 engines at first making little like mini 11:36 things, starting little things, but then 11:38 UFN got announced and I had experience 11:41 with Unreal Engine a little bit because 11:42 I did some cinematic work in in a couple 11:45 jobs like with Harry Potter Legacy. I 11:47 was intern for that that game like five 11:50 years before it released. So like that 11:53 game was it was a big game. But so I so 11:56 I had a little experience and so I was 11:57 like well I'll just make a thing, post a 12:00 thing and then that just started popping 12:03 off and I got messages and people asking 12:06 me to make them stuff asking me how I 12:08 did it and I blinked and now I'm 12:11 professionally working in UF like it it 12:15 just happened. I It's one of those 12:17 things where it's just the 12:19 opportunity perfectly hit my preparation 12:22 because it was just a perfect 12:23 combination of all my skills that just 12:26 hit right. 12:28 That's that's awesome. Yeah. You just 12:29 like never never gave up, man. You just 12:32 like kind of you were adaptable. I guess 12:34 that's like the word. And your name Jake 12:37 Tom Jake. you uh you don't have to make 12:39 everything perfect, but but that's 12:42 actually I love that process that you 12:44 have because it's just like that's just 12:46 with anything like it should your first 12:48 builds are always going to you know 12:49 whatever use the term suck whatever if 12:51 you want to say that some people your 12:53 your suck and someone else's suck or 12:55 could be different but like you just 12:57 keep at it and all of a sudden you're 12:59 making these things that are insane and 13:01 people are calling you up. So no that's 13:03 a really cool backstory and thanks for 13:05 sharing that. So I want to actually ask 13:07 you stay on this topic a little bit and 13:08 and talk about like from concept to 13:11 playable experience because you have 13:13 been making you know you special like 13:15 you've been taking UFN in verse and just 13:18 making things that people didn't even 13:19 know were possible and and you're also 13:21 sharing that journey with people which 13:23 also is you know not very common in this 13:25 space. So um you know when your creative 13:28 idea strikes what's your process for 13:31 turning that idea into a playable 13:33 Fortnite experience? Uh, I mean I'm 13:36 constantly ideulating like I I have a 13:39 iPad where just pages and pages and 13:41 pages of ideas and random thoughts and 13:44 it's brainstorming. When you start 13:46 brainstorming, writing your thoughts 13:47 down, you'll get more and more like it's 13:49 it's wild that that becomes a muscle in 13:52 of itself. Like the way you think of 13:54 good ideas is you think up ideas that 13:56 are bad and then you you edit, you know, 13:59 and and so for me, an idea starts where 14:02 I've written it down and maybe I've and 14:05 if I remember it later that I've written 14:07 it down, I know it's an extra good idea 14:08 because I still want to I'm still 14:10 thinking about it. Sometimes I'll like 14:12 go through my notes like if I'm doing 14:14 and so sometimes things pop up where for 14:17 example, let's say like I want to make a 14:20 Lego map. I'm like, "Hey, what were some 14:22 ideas I had?" And so I'll go through 14:23 some of my old stuff from from just the 14:26 ideas that I've written down, whether 14:28 they be from things I've seen on Roblox 14:30 or things I've seen playing other games 14:32 cuz I play a lot of indie games. I like 14:34 to play random weird games because the 14:37 ideas can come from even watching 14:39 movies. Like I love watching TV shows. 14:41 You never know where those ideas will 14:42 come from. Those ideas just live life 14:45 and you'll find ideas if you're looking 14:47 for them. If you're taking the time to 14:48 like write it down, look look for them. 14:50 you'll you'll find it. Yeah. I I w I 14:53 literally cannot remember the saying, 14:54 but is is essentially just what you said 14:57 is just like you have to write it down. 14:59 Like your I your ideas when you get 15:01 something, you just need to write it 15:02 down. That's the first step of anything. 15:04 So, no, that that's very cool. I want to 15:07 get into your daily warm-ups. These are 15:10 awesome. They've definitely they go 15:11 viral every day. I look forward to 15:13 seeing what what you've been making or 15:15 just these really quick. If you guys 15:16 haven't seen any of these daily 15:17 warm-ups, make sure you're following Tom 15:19 Jen on Twitter or X, whatever you want 15:21 to call it these days, cuz they are very 15:22 very cool. They're they're not little 15:25 warm-ups that you're thinking about. 15:26 These sometimes are like full-fledged 15:28 mechanics, sometimes more games. So, you 15:30 know, your daily warm-up builds have 15:32 become a staple, showing off the space 15:34 and providing content that really 15:35 resonates with the community. Can you 15:37 tell us more about these builds, how 15:39 they started, and what you enjoy about 15:42 sharing them every day? Yeah, I mean 15:44 ultimately they started from me working 15:46 on a big giant project and just being 15:49 silent on social media for months. Like 15:53 especially early on it was like, hey, I 15:55 just spent three months working on this 15:56 project. I haven't said anything. I 15:58 haven't typed anything onto Twitter or 16:00 any sort of thing. And so it kind of 16:02 became this thought. One part of it is 16:05 it builds the brand and this like it 16:08 builds recognition. It reminds people I 16:10 exist. Like half of the battle with 16:13 social media is the consistency in 16:15 posting. Like you just have to remind 16:17 people you exist at the end of the day. 16:19 Like that's just the nature of it, 16:21 right? Um so it came from that where I'm 16:23 like I got to build a following that's 16:25 just part of the space. Also, there's an 16:27 aspect of I feel like when you're 16:28 working on one project for a long period 16:30 of time, you can really get in a rut of 16:32 these ideas. You start making the same 16:34 thing over and over again. Um, and so by 16:36 doing these quick low ef not not low 16:39 effort but low like you you don't want 16:41 to edit yourself too much like when 16:43 you're doing these brainstorming and 16:45 you're just trying to mess around and 16:46 make stuff a lot of the times you get 16:48 stuck in your perfectionism and you 16:50 never release something or never show 16:52 something and like you've just got to be 16:54 okay with it doesn't look great. You got 16:56 to that muscle. You got to just learn 16:58 how to be okay with it not being perfect 17:00 to show people. But at the same time, 17:02 there's also a muscle of learning how to 17:04 make something that is goes viral or is 17:07 at least pleasing for most people to 17:09 look at. And so it's just but it's all 17:11 practice. It it all comes down to just I 17:14 committed to it. There was a time where 17:16 I was like, "Okay, I'm going to post 17:17 every every day Monday through Friday 17:20 for three months." And I did that. It 17:23 was rough. I I have a secret. Not all of 17:27 them were done in the morning. Some of 17:30 them have to tell on yourself. 17:31 Sometimes, you know, on a I got a free 17:34 Saturday and I make like five and I cut 17:36 them up and I put them out. I generally 17:39 there's still about 1 to three hours of 17:41 work, but sometimes, you know, sometimes 17:43 I don't do it that I don't, you know, I 17:45 I don't want to wake up super early that 17:47 morning, you know. Yeah. That's just 17:48 working smart to be honest. You know 17:50 what I mean? Um but don't tell anybody. 17:52 Yeah, I won't tell anybody. I don't 17:54 think anyone listening or watching will 17:56 tell anyone. So, it's OBR secret. 17:59 No, that's super cool. That's super 18:02 cool. Um, and just just smart and and 18:06 one, you're learn you're like learning 18:08 an engine doing this, but also it's a 18:11 twofold to get your name out there, show 18:13 what you can build and do, which worked 18:15 out for you because caught the eyes of, 18:18 you know, major brands and Epic to to do 18:20 other big projects. So yeah, that I 18:22 thank you for sharing that and I I hope 18:24 anyone listening can kind of you know 18:25 necessarily have to copy but like 18:28 there's definitely you know other things 18:30 you can do. I mean just being consistent 18:32 really that that that's the key I think 18:34 in anything either in game development 18:36 and social media. Yeah, we're I mean at 18:38 the end of the day when you're you're in 18:40 this space that is just something like I 18:43 know a lot of people don't love that we 18:44 have to be content creators but 18:46 unfortunately that is like that's the 18:48 indie game space like like we just I I I 18:53 don't have any experience in the 1.0 18:56 era. I'm just talking right now in how I 18:58 arrived and this is how I see it. Like 19:01 I'm you we're content creators at the 19:03 end of the day. like I should be posting 19:05 more on YouTube, you know, like you 19:07 can't be perfect, so you can start 19:09 somewhere. And for me, I started on 19:11 Twitter. It's okay. I'm just going to be 19:12 posting things. And now I don't post 19:14 every day, but I I I I think the 19:17 algorithm recognizes that people like my 19:20 stuff now. And so kind of like if I post 19:23 twice a week, that seems to still get 19:25 the same where before if I if I stopped 19:27 for like a week on those daily warm-ups, 19:29 I'd get nothing for another week of 19:31 posting. And so it and it's the same on 19:34 1.0. Actually, it's probably more full f 19:35 full on on 1.0 because we didn't really 19:37 have discovery up until the tail end. So 19:40 you needed social media to to get any 19:42 any visibility and and and yeah, you 19:45 grew a following, right? So then once 19:48 you put that work up front, so then you 19:50 don't have to post generally every day. 19:52 Um so that that does make sense, but I I 19:56 think I wonder what would happen. And 19:57 maybe it's not maybe you post you don't 20:00 post every day or some not like your 20:02 daily warm-ups but sometimes you just 20:03 post or comment still right used to 20:06 there was that time where I was like 20:08 committed to posting every day and I was 20:10 like I'm dying here this is might be a 20:12 little too much or other big projects 20:15 came where it's like I got to focus a 20:16 little bit more. So I I generally try to 20:18 post one or two times now a week. Yeah. 20:21 To get to keep that up. That is awesome. 20:24 So, do these like quick sessions 20:26 influence any larger projects or like 20:28 Oh, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. I mean, 20:31 because when you're doing these quick 20:32 sessions with lower stakes, you'll find 20:35 weird things. You'll find the jank that 20:38 works that you're surprised. You're 20:40 like, I can't believe this dumb thing 20:41 worked. Okay, I guess I got to spawn a 20:44 100 acorns 20:46 to clear a map, I guess. You know, it's 20:48 just like you just learn the weird 20:50 things that you can't learn unless 20:51 you're doing it. Yeah. Like that's I 20:54 think a lot of you got big people coming 20:56 from Unreal Engine coming in to make 20:59 stuff and they're like, "Oh, we'll show 21:00 up these kids." It's like 21:03 unfortunately this ain't perfect. Like 21:05 it's just it's not going to be what it 21:08 doesn't work exactly the way you wish it 21:09 was. I wish it worked great. Like I 21:11 would have no problem removing all jank 21:13 from my map. But it just it exists and 21:16 is part of the ecosystem. It is true. 21:18 There is a huge learning curve in 21:20 Fortnite creative with you know 21:22 matchmaking when your game how it 21:24 performs in UFN your play test and then 21:26 live on. So like there's all these 21:29 things that go into these games that 21:32 until you actually have a popular game 21:34 and like it's really hard to learn or 21:38 understand those things unless you're 21:39 doing it every day like like yourself. I 21:41 I mean I think a lot of I know AAA 21:44 studios have tried to come in and they 21:45 may have not have seen some of the 21:47 success as some of these other creators 21:49 that have been here for so long. But 21:50 that just goes to show just 21:51 understanding your audience or continue 21:53 trying because I would be willing to bet 21:56 you still, you know, you said you 21:58 started in UEFN, but you still been 22:00 putting in insane hours every day since 22:03 and UFN's over two years now. So 22:06 like that just combines, right? and and 22:09 then it all builds. You're all prepared. 22:13 Go ahead. Every every bit of the work 22:15 you put in matters to learn learn it. 22:19 You just never know when a skill will 22:20 show up somewhere else. I like everyone 22:25 says there's some people that just 22:26 believe they know everything on how to 22:29 make a map successful, but at the end of 22:31 the day, everything you're doing is just 22:33 increasing the odds, improving your 22:35 chances of doing well. But sometimes 22:37 maps just don't do well. You're like, 22:39 "Why don't the children love this map? 22:41 What the heck? I worked hard on it, but 22:43 then you make a map in a week and then 22:45 they love it and you're like, "Okay." 22:47 You know, it's frustrating, but I for 22:49 me, it's one of those things where it's 22:51 like it's so mentally freeing to just 22:53 accept it. Like I I I would drown or I 22:56 would leave. Like I wouldn't work in 22:58 this space if I felt that the work I was 23:01 doing wasn't really building. Like I 23:03 feel really bad when people feel that 23:04 way and it's like I don't because it you 23:07 can just roll bad a lot of times. It's 23:08 unfortunate no matter how good your maps 23:10 are. Sometimes it doesn't work. It's not 23:12 working out. You just got to keep 23:14 pushing in different areas whether it be 23:15 the marketing or cuz for me Twitter 23:18 stuff doesn't really help get players. 23:20 For me it's the connections I made with 23:22 creators with Epic because Epic knows me 23:25 better. They're like, "Oh, they're 23:27 keeping an eye out for the stuff I make 23:28 or or other studios that want, you know, 23:31 and it it's all multiplay multi 23:34 multipplayer multipliers and it's all 23:36 just increasing odds, but at the end of 23:38 the day, it's still you're still you're 23:39 still a bit of a slot machine." Yeah. I 23:42 mean, look, look, some of the top teams 23:44 that have top maps that have been in the 23:45 space forever, they release new maps and 23:47 they might not do well. Yeah. All the 23:49 time. Yeah. It's a moving target. You 23:52 said it beautifully, I I think. And it's 23:53 just like increasing your odds, 23:55 increasing your chances and learning 23:57 from every every you're learning though 23:59 every time you've published that map. 24:00 Maybe what what went wrong possibly or 24:03 or sometimes it's just timing. You just 24:05 never know it in this space. But yeah, 24:07 you just keep keep at it. I mean, I 24:09 published I probably tried 50 different 24:11 maps before someone took off. I mean, 24:13 like I have I published so many like I 24:16 think it was for it took me two years 24:17 before like any of my maps really did 24:19 anything and made substantial amount of 24:21 money. So yeah, it it takes a while in 24:23 this or it can sometimes you get lucky. 24:25 You Yeah, it's pain. You're you you try 24:27 not to compare yourself to other people. 24:30 Yeah. That guy, oh like I I work so much 24:33 harder and he basically made pretty 24:34 similar stuff but doing so much better. 24:37 What? That's not you know and 24:39 it's it's hard like don't get me wrong 24:41 and I'm I I accept fully that I have 24:44 been 24:45 completely blessed had luck whatever 24:48 your belief system is. I've been really 24:51 lucky in the space that I've got, 24:53 whether it be the skills that I was 24:54 ready with or the fact that I can work 24:56 on this practically 24:58 247. I I I'm not blind to that. And I 25:01 think that's really important for people 25:02 to recognize what they've had lucky 25:05 going with them as well as accepting 25:07 when things are just going bad. And it's 25:09 hard. It hurts especially in the moment. 25:11 Like it does not feel good. Like I had a 25:13 map that I really liked that I thought 25:15 was going to be amazing. I It was the 25:16 job tycoon map. I was like, I put nine 25:19 tycoons into one tycoon. Like super fun 25:22 stuff, super cool. Failed. And I was 25:25 like, like for I'm pretty sure for like 25:27 a week, I was just kind of depressed. I 25:29 was just like, but you just got to pick 25:32 yourself up. I mean, it only takes one, 25:35 especially in this ecosystem. You can 25:37 make so much from one map that it takes 25:40 one and it's painful, but sometimes it's 25:44 just that next map that might be the one 25:46 that hits off. Totally. So, you know, 25:48 just gambling. Just keep Yeah. Keep 25:50 mining. Keep hitting the slot machine. 25:53 You'll hit it. That diamond's there, 25:54 guys. I promise. Don't worry. Yeah. 25:56 Don't turn around. No, I mean, you're 25:57 right. You're right. I mean, that's that 25:59 saying of like, you know, all the people 26:01 that made it are the one only ones I 26:03 know that didn't quit. You know what I 26:04 mean? And that's that's just how I kind 26:06 of I I live kind of by that as well. 26:08 Like I think I think about some of my 26:10 successes or some reasons why I was in 26:12 certain situations in this space and it 26:15 literally was just because I said yes to 26:18 certain things. I just didn't say no. 26:20 And I'm not, you know, we're talking 26:22 professional game or in the gaming 26:23 space, but just like opportunities that 26:25 come up or projects that come up, say 26:27 yes. Get in. You don't know what they 26:28 lead. And early on Fortnite creative, 26:31 there was wasn't many people in the 26:33 mechanic space early on. And I remember 26:35 Epic was making like a 1v one tournament 26:37 and this never even happened. Never ever 26:39 panned out because we didn't have um we 26:41 didn't have enough uh resources to even 26:43 make what they wanted at the time. But 26:45 like it was Epic and I was busy. I had 26:48 all this stuff going on. I could have 26:50 said no. And I just said yes. And that 26:53 led me to kind of like get inside of 26:55 Epic. They saw what I was capable of and 26:58 that project might not worked out, you 26:59 know, and never no one ever saw the 27:00 light of day of it, but it led to other 27:03 things. So, it's just like at the end of 27:04 the day, I think it's just saying yes, 27:06 but I want to talk about like challenges 27:08 and 27:09 milestones. So, overcoming obstacles, I 27:12 think, you know, it's kind of a good 27:13 segue into this. Every creative journey 27:15 has its hurdles. Can you share a 27:17 challenge you faced in Fortnite Creative 27:18 and how overcoming it has shaped your 27:20 approach to new projects? Weird 27:22 question. No, I I I say I I can think of 27:26 a few there. I mean, early on, I I was 27:30 posting a lot of like experiments and 27:32 really interesting. It was kind of like 27:34 early days daily warm-ups. They weren't 27:36 really the called the daily warm-ups 27:37 yet, but I hadn't published a map at all 27:39 yet. And I was posting these kind of 27:41 weird stuff and interesting things. And 27:43 people were like excited. And man, I 27:46 felt such nervousness to release a map 27:48 because I was like, they're just they're 27:50 going to want it to be perfect. Like, 27:52 they're going to be cool, innovative. 27:53 I'm like, I can't just make something 27:55 not cool. like what like what am I going 27:58 to do? And I I felt paralyzed. I started 28:00 like 19 different maps and like and and 28:03 it was really scary. But then one day I 28:05 was like f it. I made a map in three 28:07 hours and published it. I was like I 28:10 just I don't I didn't want to be locked 28:12 down by the expectation that everything 28:14 I make is perfect. Um and that actually 28:17 is part of what c Tom Jen the name Jake 28:20 came from where it's like I just want to 28:22 set their expectations early. Look, it's 28:23 going to be a little weird, but if you 28:25 give it a chance, I think it'll do. 28:27 You'll like it, you know? And I think so 28:30 for me that like the the perfectionism, 28:32 especially early on, there was a lot of 28:34 I felt a lot of expectation from the 28:36 community to be like, "Yeah, make 28:37 something cool. Come on." You know, and 28:39 so I think for me that was that was a 28:41 big thing. 28:42 What was your first game? What was the 28:44 game you published? Oh, man. It was like 28:47 it was during the time when the like 28:49 speed the the the speed simulators were 28:51 doing well when people Yeah. So, I made 28:54 that, but I I made that, but what I did 28:56 was it was like a labyrinth simulator 28:59 where like you got into a car and time 29:02 slowly got faster as you were trying to 29:04 get out of this maze until it just 29:06 became ridiculous. Like it got like two 29:08 players. The the thumbnail I made in an 29:11 hour or some stupid thing because again, 29:14 I was just like screw it, I'm making 29:15 something stupid. I need to not worry 29:18 about what other people think. For me, 29:20 it's like, will my next map be better 29:22 than that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Easy pe like 29:26 like keeping that bar, you know? And I 29:28 honestly still struggle with that. Like 29:30 I've got that Lego a Lego pirate map 29:32 that I'm really excited for. And they're 29:34 still in the back of my head. I'm like 29:36 like is this going to be perfect? Am I 29:38 going to mess up? Will everyone be like, 29:39 "Whoa, I thought he was good at this." 29:41 You know, like you just you start to get 29:43 in your own head a lot. And so that also 29:46 another way daily warm-ups has helped me 29:48 because you're just trying to get out of 29:49 my head and just having fun with it. 29:52 Totally. I that that I'm so glad you 29:55 said that and like kind of gave it like 29:56 a can look because it's so true. I think 29:59 all of us probably somewhat have that 30:01 that fear. Um and it's hard to overcome. 30:05 So you just just publishing it, seeing 30:08 what happens and go on to the next. I 30:11 learned something onto the next. That's 30:13 that's awesome, man. Um ah so let's 30:16 let's now that we had that question I 30:18 want to I want to kind of change a 30:20 little bit. So I want to talk about your 30:22 defining career moment. So looking back 30:25 what's been one of your proudest moments 30:27 or key milestones in your career that 30:29 made you feel I've made it. I for me a 30:31 really notable moment was when I went to 30:33 GDC last year. This is the first time I 30:35 went to an inerson event. This was the 30:38 daily warm-ups had started and doing 30:40 pretty well and I was just like I was 30:42 nervous. I was like, I don't know what 30:43 to expect from this in person event. Are 30:46 the people are going to be weird? Like, 30:47 am I going to be weird? I haven't been I 30:51 haven't been in a space with over 100 30:53 people in like five in like two years 30:56 since like the co, you know, Yeah. It I 30:59 I was nervous, man. But I got there and 31:02 like every person was like, "Tom, Jake, 31:05 I love you." And like super excited and 31:06 I was like at first it was shocking, but 31:08 like it felt good. Like it to me it was 31:11 such an affirmation like it it affirmed 31:14 that I was at minimum on the right path 31:16 at that point. I didn't have any maps 31:18 that had really popped like I I had a 31:20 couple pops for like a week so and stuff 31:23 but like and so there's some nervousness 31:26 there but it was just like everyone was 31:27 excited. Everyone loved what I was 31:30 doing. Everyone from Epic like people 31:32 from Epic would just come up and be like 31:33 Tom Jen I'm so glad I get to meet you. 31:35 You know, it was just like I I was 31:37 really honored like that my brand was 31:40 working, my work was being seen, like 31:43 I'm trying to innovate as much as I can 31:45 in this kind of space. And it felt good 31:48 to be recognized in that way. And so 31:50 that for me was a big confidence booster 31:52 really defining for me that like, okay, 31:55 I am doing something right here. Even if 31:58 I don't have a top 100 map right now, I 32:01 I have no doubt that one day I will. And 32:05 so I'm not gonna stop. Like I'm gonna 32:08 keep going. No, like we are behind these 32:12 screens sitting all day working. You 32:14 don't, you know, sure you can get these 32:15 comments on your post or whatever. You 32:18 don't really know or you you have all in 32:20 your mind. And so when you go to these 32:21 in-person events, it's just really wild 32:23 cuz people will even, you know, that's 32:26 when they'll say, "Hey, like I started 32:28 because of this tutorial." Or, "Hey, 32:29 you're you helped me here." Like it's 32:30 like, "Oh, that's awesome, dude. Nice to 32:32 meet you." I remember in that event. I 32:33 think that was the first time I had met 32:35 you. I was actually excited to meet you. 32:36 Yeah. First time we met. Yeah. And I 32:38 don't know if you even had you I don't 32:40 even know if you posted your face at 32:41 that time online, but I made a I think I 32:43 made a post of us. I think I had like 32:44 one tutorial, but yeah, I think that was 32:46 the first on Twitter. I think that was 32:49 the first reveal. Dude, that posted 32:52 insane of me and you and that a picture, 32:54 dude. So that that just goes to show you 32:56 like definitely I I was you're just 32:58 super approachable and and fun and and 33:00 it it comes off into your content and 33:03 Thanks, man. You know, we're all kind 33:04 of, you know, nerds, right? In a good 33:06 way, right? That's a cool thing 33:07 nowadays. So, no, that that's that's 33:10 awesome, man. And u I'm looking forward 33:12 to Unreal Fest this year. I am so 33:14 excited for Unreal Fest. I'm gonna I'm 33:16 stoked to do my talk uh and just meeting 33:19 all the people and whatever Epic's got. 33:21 I just Epic's got so much planned. I 33:24 feel like that, you know, it'll be magic 33:25 as it'll be magic, right? Yeah. Why is 33:28 it 33:29 like Come on. Just give it to us. Yeah. 33:33 Just just let us eat down easy. What's 33:35 your talk going to be about? Uh my talk 33:37 is going to be all about 33:40 it's like 33:42 collab commissions and creative Tom 33:45 Jensen UFN survival guide. So awesome. 33:49 Basically the talk the goal for the talk 33:52 in general will be to just first off 33:54 give them give just people know how I'm 33:58 living like how I'm able to survive in 34:01 this ecosystem because it's crazy. It's 34:03 unstable. You never know what's going to 34:05 pop off. You never know what will just 34:07 fail. And so I just want to kind of go 34:10 through kind of what my experience and 34:12 what's helped me get through as well as 34:14 try to give some advice to people that 34:16 are interested in collaborating with 34:18 other people but are nervous about what 34:20 legal stuff or working with big brands 34:23 and how I think you can be successful or 34:26 even just talking about how I think my 34:28 brand did well and what I would 34:30 recommend for others in the space 34:31 because I mean this space is tough. Um, 34:34 what I I think it's possible. Uh, you 34:37 just got to be flexible at the end of 34:39 the day. You gotta gotta adapt and it 34:42 and I and it's and I I totally get when 34:44 people are really frustrated with a lot 34:46 of the aspects. Like I'm also very 34:48 frustrated. I tried I tried to stay 34:50 relatively positive in general, but I 34:52 mean that day, the update day, the this 34:55 season's update day, I was depressed for 34:57 a day when we didn't get UFN 2.0. I was 35:01 definitely I I was not I was not a happy 35:04 camper. I woke up it was like Christmas. 35:06 I was waking up. Yeah. I opened it up 35:08 and it was nothing. Yeah. That that was 35:11 a weird week to be honest. You know, we 35:13 had the ecosystem talk at the time and 35:15 then we just got Yeah. You had your 35:17 whole thing. Oh man. Yeah. Well, and and 35:19 you know that that whole subject on 35:21 itself is a touchy subject in our 35:22 community and then like a few days later 35:25 it was just like or a week later it was 35:26 just like hey you're not getting you up. 35:28 You're not getting scene graphs. Yeah. 35:32 Um, save, dude. I believe in them. It is 35:35 going to it'll come. We'll be happy. 35:37 We'll think back and be like, remember 35:38 when that happened? That was so funny. 35:40 But we're not there yet. But one day. 35:42 Oh, no. It's still It's still I think 35:44 that just goes what we've already said 35:45 earlier. You have already said earlier 35:47 is just just like being prepared though. 35:49 Like you've just consistently building 35:50 still and and being ready. And you've 35:53 made all these different games. So when 35:54 a new scene graph is which opens up so 35:57 many doors or any of these new devices 35:59 sometimes you don't even like and that's 36:01 what I think is great about you. I wish 36:02 we would have actually talked about this 36:03 more but you've kind of like this is the 36:06 question we should have talked about. 36:08 We're talking about it right 36:09 now. So remember when you could put 36:12 props like you created cosmetics 36:15 essentially? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 36:18 This this is I don't know if a lot of 36:19 people know this but I remember how long 36:21 ago was this now? We were a year and a 36:22 half two years. 36:24 Yeah. No, it was it was right before 36:26 that GDC that I went to actually. Ah, 36:29 that was apparently one of the ways a 36:31 lot of Epic employees knew my name. 36:32 Well, yeah, that that went that was 36:34 huge. I mean, that was huge for 36:35 everybody because that was the first 36:37 time you could technically put 36:39 cosmetics, you know, attach things 36:41 finally. Yeah. To a player. And I don't 36:43 know what update. Maybe you could talk 36:45 about how that how that happened. How 36:47 did you figure that out? Yeah. Yeah. 36:49 Yeah. Oh I had to find his name. 36:51 So I was not I didn't find the setting. 36:55 But you got inspiration a little bit. 36:57 But what happened was is it was like 36:59 shoot if I can I my there was a guy I 37:03 think Alongo or something. Basically he 37:06 he found a setting and he's like what is 37:08 this? I don't I don't know what this 37:11 does. Like what is this? Is this good? 37:13 Like what it's seems new and I saw it 37:15 and I was 37:16 like I was just like what? Like it was 37:20 mindblowing to see such like it was like 37:22 finding gold and that sometimes happens 37:25 with Yeah. Longo. Yeah. Yeah. This 37:27 sometimes happens where it's just like 37:29 you find a mechanic and you're like I 37:31 need to release something and I'll make 37:33 a million dollars. Like that's what it 37:35 feels like. Yep. 37:37 and it was found in kind of a public 37:38 place and it was just like we both kind 37:41 of realiz I told him like I was like 37:43 okay he found the setting so I need to 37:45 make sure I'm telling him what this is 37:47 cuz I I think it's really important to 37:49 share credit and to like like that's 37:52 just important to me. I I I don't think 37:54 it's fair to not. And so like I talked 37:56 to him I was like can I post about this? 37:58 Like I just think that's really 38:00 important in this space because I think 38:02 honesty and authenticity is so 38:04 important. But and so I saw it and it's 38:06 just like mindblowing. I was like you 38:09 can attach like it's like yeah we can 38:11 attach flame. I was like you don't 38:12 understand like 38:14 like you could put a helmet, you could 38:16 put a mask, you could put like just 38:18 anything like this changes everything. 38:21 Especially I'm sure for brands you were 38:22 a game fam. I'm sure all the brands were 38:24 like I could make Coca-Cola launcher. 38:27 Dude, I hit you up immediately. I'm like 38:29 hey I'm gonna tag you because again I do 38:32 agree. I I like to give credit where 38:34 it's due. I'm not Sometimes, you know, 38:36 things happen, but I try I try my best. 38:38 We all try your You should try your 38:39 best. And I was like, "Dude, I have to 38:41 post this because brands are going to go 38:44 nuts when they see that you can put cuz 38:47 your your video and maybe I'll I'll have 38:48 it on screen. I'll put it up so you guys 38:50 can see the original video he posted." 38:51 So, because then you'll really 38:52 understand what's going on. I really 38:54 said screw it. I'm putting every IP like 38:56 I just I'm not going to publish this 38:57 map, but I know what will be a viral 39:01 tweet. So, I'm doing it like I just I 39:04 have to like I I I don't love it, but I 39:06 I have to do this. Yeah, it was it was 39:08 brilliant. So, yeah. So, now now anytime 39:11 you see a back bling in in some like a 39:13 custom back bling, custom helmets, 39:15 shoes, what else are we doing with that? 39:18 Like or pets, pet systems, words, custom 39:21 weapons, like Yeah. So that's from this 39:25 that's that's from that that workaround 39:27 because as you know Epic really hasn't 39:29 you know we we will get some items 39:30 that's in the road map. 39:33 Yeah. Scene grab. So we will get maybe 39:36 better better opportunities to create 39:38 these certain things in game without 39:39 having to do a jank you know pun 39:41 intended. 39:43 Yeah that that was I remember that I was 39:44 like oh my gosh that was a really big 39:47 moment I think in UF and Fortnite 39:49 creative space in general. It's 39:51 everywhere. Yeah. Is it all mapped out? 39:53 Everything. Yeah. Every I also felt bad 39:55 because like all the comments are like, 39:56 "How did I do this?" I'm like, "I'm not 39:57 saying it's going to get released, but I 39:59 am not saying it as long as I can." Like 40:02 I just I I'm just not going to post it 40:05 until cuz I knew I mean I knew that's 40:07 engagement and people are going to be 40:08 commenting asking, you know, but I mean 40:10 it got it got revealed in what like 20 40:12 30 minutes after the post went out. Like 40:14 I knew because of the public nature of 40:16 where it was found. I was like this 40:18 isn't staying where it is. Like that's 40:19 why I was like I got to post now instead 40:21 if I found that by myself in all honesty 40:24 I would have gate kept that like crazy 40:26 and made a map and made a million 40:29 dollars like I that's what I would have 40:31 done but as you should that's just 40:34 smart. It doesn't mean that you're 40:35 hiding anything and you come out later. 40:36 I used to do that with a lot of my 40:38 mechanics I used to do early on is like 40:40 I would make it make my game and then I 40:42 would release a tutorial after on kind 40:44 of how how it was done. So yeah. No, 40:46 that makes total sense. It reminds me 40:48 early on they gave us in the class 40:52 designers they allowed us to switch 40:53 teams. Like I know this is crazy. This 40:55 is like this is barbar this is back in 40:57 the day. Yeah. Yeah. Like crazy stuff, 40:59 right? But this was actually the first I 41:01 was the first to create a team 41:03 selection. It wasn't possible at all. So 41:05 with they again just being knowing 41:07 exactly what's going on in each device 41:09 and new things they're adding and paying 41:11 attention and sometimes you miss it. 41:13 Sometimes it's like months later you're 41:15 like, "Oh, ah, now we can do I see what 41:17 why this was added." You create 41:18 something. And so I created the first 41:20 team select and the game popped off 41:22 because of that mechanic. And then of 41:24 course, you know, I was getting hit up 41:25 by everyone. How do you do that? And 41:26 then then I made a tutorial. Anyway, so 41:28 yeah, it you just never know. It's just 41:30 being being in the space and and just 41:33 trying trying different things every day 41:34 and you figure these weird things out. 41:37 Yeah. You never you never know when they 41:38 ghost update something and you're like, 41:40 "Wait a second, what is this?" Yeah. 41:42 When did this setting get in here? When 41:44 did this come? Yeah. But I think also 41:47 it's important to know that it's okay 41:50 when you do miss it cuz it's like Yeah. 41:52 I feel like you just I I've had those 41:55 times where it's like I knew that thing 41:56 and I could have done it. It reminds me 41:59 It reminds me a lot of stock trading or 42:01 like like where it's just like you can't 42:03 sit there and think whatifs or you'll 42:06 just drown. Yeah. I think I mean that's 42:09 kind of how I feel with the this like 42:11 the Walking Dead collaboration is coming 42:13 out and it's really cool and exciting 42:15 but for me I'm like sometimes you as 42:18 much as you should say yes to a lot of 42:19 things you should also learn to say no 42:22 to yes like I'm like for me it's just 42:24 like it's just I would love to make 42:26 something but I just don't have the time 42:29 and I don't want to make the other 42:30 things worse that I'm making just 42:32 because I want to pump something out 42:35 with that. And so sometimes you got to 42:36 know yourself, you know. Yeah, that 42:39 makes perfect sense. I think if you're 42:40 starting out and you're not seeing 42:41 success, saying yes to everything. Yes. 42:43 But you the more you say yes, then you 42:45 understand what's kind of more worth 42:46 your time at start at your time changes 42:49 throughout your journey. So like like 42:50 hey, I got all these projects right now. 42:53 Doesn't really make sense. And comes in 42:54 waves, man. Yeah. And and and look, 42:57 we've seen Fall Guys. We've seen TMNT, 43:00 which we're going to talk about next, 43:01 and um Lego, things like that, right? 43:04 and and we all want them to do very 43:06 well, but it's just, you know, some 43:09 sometimes depending on, you know, your 43:11 workload, it may or may not be the right 43:13 time to make something. But if you can 43:15 jump on those and you have the time, you 43:17 know, usually they make a new row for 43:18 you in in discovery. So, if you can get 43:20 in, it's it is worth it sometimes. You 43:22 never you never know. And and the maps 43:24 that seem to stick from those IPs are 43:26 the ones that are made stick for a while 43:29 or the ones made right off the bat. So, 43:31 let's let's transition into that. I want 43:33 to talk kind of about your professional 43:34 work and brand collaborations and stuff 43:35 like that. And um I want to talk about 43:39 the TMNT Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 43:41 pizza shop tycoon because it was I think 43:43 one of the best one of the best tycoons 43:45 actually in the space but also with IP 43:47 which was amazing. So your pizza shop 43:49 tycoon project was picked for the TMNT 43:51 call out and became one of the most 43:53 successful nonRVB nonverse blue version 43:57 out there. Can you share what the 43:58 creative process was like for that 44:00 project and why do you think it did 44:03 well? It's one of those things where a 44:05 lot of factors hit at a good time was 44:08 one it was I went to Unreal Fest and 44:11 they had that afterparty thing with 44:13 TMNT. It was like very clear. There you 44:16 go. You got the got the hat. Yeah. It 44:19 was very clear that Paramount really 44:21 wanted this to succeed. And that's 44:22 something I think is always important is 44:24 to not only think about what your 44:26 players want, but also think about what 44:29 Paramount wants and what Epic wants and 44:31 like because if you can balance that 44:34 well, you'll be featured by Epic as well 44:37 as hopefully get players like it's kind 44:38 of that weird balance game where if 44:40 you're looking to get Epic picks or 44:42 looking like think about what they want 44:45 but also what the play like it's just 44:47 balance. Yes. So there was that where I 44:49 met people from Paramount and it was 44:51 kind of like they're really into this. 44:53 They really want me to make something 44:56 too. Like they were kind of like JJ, are 44:58 you going to make something? Like are 44:59 you going to make um and because luckily 45:01 with my brand and everything I I feel 45:03 I've succeeded at showing that I I make 45:06 unique things sometimes that sometimes 45:08 does well on 45:10 the not all but sometimes I can I get 45:13 something right. Um, and so there was 45:15 that and then there was I was working 45:17 with Slided Sloth and Trick Tiger. Both 45:19 great guys to work with. We had made a 45:22 worked on a Fall Guys map and we had 45:23 been talking about like, all right, what 45:25 other IPs like this is like a good way 45:28 to like get kind of that initial launch 45:31 mind. And so we were all kind of 45:33 thinking of ideas like what we could do. 45:35 I started playing I play like Roblox 45:37 games and Steam games. And there was a 45:39 couple Roblox things that I kept seeing 45:41 in some of the tycoons on there that I 45:44 was like, "Oh, we could kind of twist 45:46 this into more of a pizza sort of 45:48 thing." And then we were talking and we 45:50 had the idea to make it like evil pizza 45:52 shop with like cuz I wanted to like 45:55 focusing on Shredder I think was 45:57 something most people wouldn't do that 45:59 most people would be focusing on the 46:00 Teenage Mutant Turtles. And so kind of 46:02 all those came together and when I think 46:04 of an idea I really like I just kind 46:05 want to make it. Like I'm I'm definitely 46:09 a like I can be a bit of like loosey 46:13 goosey with I got an idea, I'm excited, 46:15 I got an idea, really excited. But 46:16 having uh Tiger and Sloth there, they 46:18 really helped me to like focus in and uh 46:21 and and make this map. So us three kind 46:23 of work worked on this map, made it um 46:27 it felt really good to to make it 46:29 because we got this tycoon. It felt like 46:31 one of the kind of the only unique 46:34 Teenage Eternal maps that came out, 46:35 especially non-combat. it that probably 46:38 was a massive help for us that we were 46:40 probably one of the only non-combat 46:43 maps, especially for a lot at the 46:45 beginning where it was like we had like 46:48 a 20 click-through rate, 20% 46:50 clickthrough rate on our thing because I 46:52 think people would just open the TMT 46:54 collection and be like, I don't want to 46:56 play combat. Oh, there's just this 46:58 tycoon. Let me play this and try this 47:00 one. And so, I think that helped us a 47:02 lot. It was just a lot of things working 47:04 out in our favor. And so, that 47:06 I I I'm really proud of the map. I'm 47:08 stoked about like I'm stoked that it did 47:10 well. It felt good for all three of us 47:12 that we could prove that we could make 47:14 an IP map that isn't just RV Red Versus 47:17 Blue, you know? Yeah. And so that that 47:20 felt good to kind of prove it out and 47:22 helped that helps us prove to other like 47:24 if we're trying to get other people to 47:26 pay us for the, you know. Yeah. Um and 47:29 be like we made a thing that was 47:30 successful. So that helps for sure. It 47:33 was done it was done really well though. 47:34 I mean that that game if go go go play 47:36 it. It it Discovery we don't need to go 47:39 into this needs some work and so the IP 47:42 portion of things is um it it's tough to 47:45 keep some of those games going right now 47:47 in Discovery but like it had a really 47:49 good run. I think that that map did 47:51 really well for for a long time being an 47:53 IP map non-combat and it was really fun 47:56 to play. I think who in Epic loved I 47:58 think there was somebody in Epic that 47:59 was playing the crap like who Sachs 48:01 talked about Sax Saxs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 48:03 We like like I think our map was very 48:05 good, but I cannot deny that we 48:07 definitely got help from Epic. Like we 48:09 got like it was a it was like Christmas 48:11 day that they put our map on the news 48:13 feed. We're like hello merry Christmas 48:16 to me to us, you know, and like so like 48:19 it's undeniable that we got help. Like 48:22 don't don't get me wrong, we it wasn't a 48:24 but I think it's it's again meeting 48:26 those two moments, the opportunity as 48:28 well as the map is solid enough to hold 48:31 on to players and so it's tough to get 48:34 both for even one of them is tough. No, 48:37 for sure. And and that's just it. It's 48:38 if the map sucked, if the map wasn't, 48:41 you know, it wouldn't have never gotten 48:42 in there. So yeah, I mean you definitely 48:43 want to make sure you guys get credit 48:45 where it's due, but like you know it it 48:48 adds up over time and and all of a 48:49 sudden sometimes it it just takes that 48:52 that ball to keep rolling for for 48:54 something to strike. So no, that's 48:56 that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that 48:57 and really fun game. So we're getting 49:00 close to the end here. Let's kind of got 49:01 a few more questions before we wrap it 49:02 up. This is really fun, Tom. Appreciate 49:05 it. And uh let's talk about the future 49:07 plans and visions you have. This is for 49:09 visions for Fortnite creatives future 49:12 looking ahead and I think I already know 49:15 your answer. What exciting projects or 49:17 new directions are you most enthusiastic 49:20 about? What's that? So what are you most 49:22 enthusiastic about in Fortnite Creative? 49:24 So are there any like emerging trends or 49:26 new tools at UFN that you're like can't 49:28 wait to get your hands on? I mean I you 49:31 know I scene graph I love scene graph 49:33 and I also have a very strong feeling 49:37 that like I think some of the updates 49:39 have felt a little bit lackluster and it 49:41 feels my best guess on this. This is my 49:45 guessing on this is that they're really 49:46 trying to make sure scene graph is a 49:48 solid foundation and things will start 49:50 to pick up once they like got exactly 49:53 what they want for scene graph because 49:54 scene graph isn't just UFN's future. 49:57 It's Unreal's future and Unreal 6. Like 50:01 this is their core framework that 50:04 they're basically rebuilding. And so I'm 50:07 really excited for that because that 50:09 will open up the opportunity for even 50:11 more creative and innovative Fortnite 50:13 maps, I think one of the tough things to 50:16 break through the combat barrier of 50:19 success. Not to say combat maps are bad 50:21 or anything, just to have different maps 50:22 do well is it's just we just need the 50:25 right tool and less jank. Like I can 50:28 kind of make a unique map, but there's 50:31 you still run into those things. And so 50:33 Scraph will solve many of those 50:35 problems, if not all of them. They'll 50:37 still always be jank in game 50:38 development, no matter what. Like 50:40 always. But that's one thing I'm excited 50:41 for. I'm kind of this year I'm very 50:43 committed to making I have a goal that I 50:45 want to make a very a successful Lego 50:48 map. That's something I'm really 50:50 passionate about in the way of like I 50:52 think I love the Lego games. Lego Star 50:54 Wars was actually the first time our 50:56 family did get a computer. It was 50:58 because I convinced my dad to buy a new 51:00 computer so I could play Lego Star Wars 51:03 because it broke our old one. And so 51:05 like I I really want to give Lego 51:07 justice because I feel like there's 51:08 still a lot of space in Lego and they 51:11 are really passionate about it as well. 51:12 And so I'm I'm hoping that that can 51:15 those that tool set can develop more. 51:17 Yeah. No, I'm super excited about that. 51:20 You've been posting a little bit some 51:21 little teasers on your social media so 51:23 you guys can go all check that out. But 51:25 um that game is going to be insane and I 51:27 I think just from even the teasers I 51:29 don't think there's been a game like 51:30 like it. So I'm super excited to to see 51:34 that come out and seeing graph I think 51:36 right now like even Alberto the previous 51:38 that's same answer for him. Um I want 51:41 can you give like a for anyone listening 51:45 that maybe did not understand scene 51:46 graph like a explain like I'm five. 51:52 Yeah, that's I mean it's that's another 51:54 thing that's tough for Singap because 51:55 it's hard to explain it in a simple way. 51:57 Yeah, I feel like it's very scary. I 52:00 know dur before that one update that we 52:02 were all very sad about. I saw a lot of 52:04 nervousness and almost felt some people 52:07 felt relief I think after it didn't get 52:09 added. They're like still have time to 52:11 like learn it or don't have to worry 52:13 about it yet and people making stuff. So 52:15 scene graph 52:18 I if you 52:20 because it's a it's a system. Nope. 52:24 Let's see. Scene I can't see. You 52:28 couldn't do it. It's just like Okay. So 52:29 the tutorial. Okay. Here here I got for 52:32 So I'm I'm imagining I'm talking to a 52:33 1.0 person that only does Fortnite 52:36 Creative 1.0. Let's pretend like that is 52:38 the the audience that I'm talking to 52:40 about scene graph. So imagine 52:43 if you could spawn a 52:46 button like dynamically. You don't have 52:49 to place your buttons everywhere or 52:51 worry about memory of having only 10 52:54 buttons. I can make a button that you 52:57 can just drag in and it it's there's 52:59 button. Or say you want to make your 53:01 own. So you got an objective device. You 53:03 know how there's like a million settings 53:04 on objective device? Yes. What if you 53:06 only wanted three of them? I only want 53:09 to be able to break the thing. I want to 53:11 restart it and I want it to have a 53:12 little banner over it. You could you can 53:15 make a little like your own creative 53:17 device that's just that and then you can 53:20 drag it in. The hope is they what I 53:22 understand what they've been saying is 53:24 that one day we will be able to make 53:25 little devices for 1.0 people to be able 53:28 to use. And so that's like the dream, 53:31 right? Like that we I could make stuff, 53:33 sell it on Fab, and then the 1.0 I know 53:35 creator can just go into their toolbar 53:37 and whatever their fab section and just 53:39 like drag and drop like the Tom Jank 53:42 objectives like and it will just be so 53:45 you'll save memory because it won't have 53:47 all the options you don't need. You'll 53:49 save also if you have like 12 in your 53:52 map but you're like crap I meant to add 53:55 a billboard there on a top of it. I 53:57 don't have one like I'm gonna have to go 53:59 to all 12 of them attach a billboard 54:01 attach to the code attach to the thing. 54:03 Don't have to do that. you can just edit 54:04 the prefab and it'll update on all of 54:07 the things on the map. And so now they 54:09 all have the billboard and can be 54:11 connected to code or whatever that is 54:14 there. Don't don't get me wrong, there 54:16 will be verse stuff that I think will be 54:18 dramatically important to know when it 54:19 comes to Singraph, especially early on. 54:22 Like, okay, it 54:23 is unfortunate in in the way that there 54:26 are going to be things that like in 54:28 order for them to get it out, from what 54:30 I understand, in order for them to get 54:32 it out, it won't be super accessible to 54:35 everyone instantly. Like that's just not 54:37 possible with the way that they're 54:39 developing it. Yeah. But I do believe 54:42 eventually they're they're not 54:43 forgetting about the 1.0 people. They 54:46 still really want people to be able to 54:48 make it on a console, you know? Like 54:50 yeah, 54:52 I like I think it's important to learn 54:54 verse, don't get me wrong, I if if 54:56 you're picking between learning and not 54:57 learn verse, learn verse. But if you 55:00 don't want to, it's not going to be 55:01 required. It's just the update. It will 55:03 take a little longer for you to get 55:04 those features, you know. No, if that's 55:08 awesome. No, that was perfect. And I 55:10 think I think I really wish Epic would 55:13 come out and give us kind of a little of 55:16 that kind of look because 1.0 definitely 55:20 um hasn't gotten the a lot of love since 55:23 UFN come came out. So I think like 55:26 seeing a positive spin on what how it 55:29 can actually help it out is a good thing 55:31 for the community. Um so that that 55:33 that's really cool. It's like a a 55:34 community being able to make creative 55:36 devices for each other in of itself will 55:38 be big, you know. That'll be huge. 55:40 That'll be huge. Yeah. Especially if you 55:42 can get better memory. 55:45 All right. So, we just have two more 55:46 questions. So, this one's kind of on 55:48 advice and personal insight. So, just 55:51 guidance for any aspiring creator. So, 55:53 for listeners who are just starting out 55:54 in Fortnite Creative, what is the one 55:56 piece of advice you'd offer to help them 55:57 build a lasting career in this space? 56:00 Learn to take breaks. I do not work on 56:03 Sundays. The only like work I do on 56:06 Sunday is writing ideas down are pretty 56:09 much the only thing. I'm not saying do 56:12 it on Sunday. This isn't like a 56:13 religious pitch or anything. But take a 56:16 break because for me it feels like a 56:19 muscle. Like when you're working out, 56:20 you have to take breaks in order for it 56:22 to build back. And there is such I 56:25 haven't had major burnout. I mean 56:27 there's been rough times. I think the 56:29 burnout that I've hit were mainly just 56:31 disappointments and releases, but just 56:33 like creative burnouts haven't really 56:36 hit me much because I take those breaks 56:39 every week. Like Sundays, zero work. 56:42 Yeah. Sometimes I peek at Twitter or 56:44 something. I shouldn't I don't go on 56:46 like but sometimes you know you want to 56:48 know what's going on. Yeah. In general 56:50 try to give you a space to not work. 56:52 Whether that be I know some people when 56:55 I was working at Pixar and some people 56:56 would just be like if I'm home at work 56:59 like after work I am not at Pixar you 57:02 know like the it just giving yourself 57:04 boundaries and space to really take a 57:06 break I think is extremely important 57:09 because not only will it help you but it 57:12 helps makes your work better. Like 57:14 there's a lot of like grind culture and 57:16 stuff like that and I'm the last person 57:18 that should ever say anything about No, 57:20 I wake up way too early and work way too 57:23 long on this stuff to say that grinding 57:25 is bad. But my thing is a big part of 57:28 making grinding work is being able to to 57:30 take a break. Yeah, if you want. That's 57:33 my That's my Okay. Awesome. Awesome. My 57:35 next question is finally after all of 57:37 you have accomplished, what continues to 57:40 motivate you to create? If you could go 57:42 back and give your younger self one 57:43 piece of advice, what would it be? 57:45 Embrace the jank. I mean I mean it's 57:48 kind of like I said before early on 57:49 where I I had to be okay with things 57:52 being broken. Ironically, my name 57:54 originally was Tom Grinch in originally 57:58 and I as I was growing I realized now is 58:04 the time to change the name if I don't 58:05 want it to be Grinch. I didn't want to 58:07 deal with any possible copyright or 58:09 whatever like and so I was like okay 58:11 what could it be and this was kind of 58:13 around the time where I was like okay I 58:15 need to like rebrand myself like what 58:18 what's at the core of what I'm trying to 58:20 do and I really think embracing the jank 58:23 just being okay with the craziness that 58:27 comes with working in this space um 58:30 setting expectations early that not 58:33 everything's your fault but some things 58:35 are 58:38 I think there's humility is really 58:39 important. I'm not the best at it at 58:42 all. I mean, the fact that I say my name 58:44 like a Pokemon all the time really shows 58:47 humility, you know. No. Um, but I mean, 58:49 like being okay with not knowing 58:51 everything is just part of the journey. 58:54 Everyone doesn't know what they're 58:56 doing. Yeah. Everyone wants everyone to 58:58 think they know what they're doing, but 59:00 no one really at the end of the day, no 59:03 one really knows exactly what's 59:05 happening other than that one guy at 59:08 Epic that controls 59:10 that has even them even they get 59:12 surprised when I find a jank solution or 59:15 something. Yeah. Like at the end of the 59:17 day, everyone's um that you just got to 59:21 go for it. um that it's okay to it's 59:24 okay to balance innovation with 59:26 mainstream working. I personally have my 59:29 own dre with how lacking of innovation 59:32 sometimes happens sometimes. But at the 59:35 end of the day, I I find the best thing 59:38 to keep me sane is to balance it where I 59:42 sometimes there's going to be a map 59:43 that's going to be more mainstream than 59:45 innovative that I make. Sometimes it'll 59:48 be a little more for me and I'm making 59:50 it more innovative than I'm am I 59:51 worrying about 59:53 whether the basic Fortnite person will 59:55 like it. I think balancing I guess the 59:59 one piece of advice I I'm going all over 1:00:01 the place, but I'm going to center in on 1:00:04 one thing. Balance is the most important 1:00:06 thing. Balancing between the mainstream 1:00:08 and innovation. Balancing between 1:00:11 working and taking a break. Balancing 1:00:13 between 1:00:15 um hoping that discovery work out 1:00:18 correctly or thinking about what you 1:00:20 need to be doing to at least improve 1:00:22 your odds. Like it's a balance. If you 1:00:24 get too sucked into like how good you 1:00:27 are or how good you were or how many 1:00:30 accolades you had previously, that's not 1:00:32 great. But also, it's important to have 1:00:34 that confidence that that that can give 1:00:35 you. And so, it's a tough thing where 1:00:37 you're spinning a lot of plates. But if 1:00:40 you're shooting for that balance, I 1:00:42 think that is your best chance at 1:00:44 succeeding here both in monetarily as 1:00:47 well as mentally. Yeah, I think you'll 1:00:50 go crazy doing going either way too far. 1:00:52 I think that's actually great advice. 1:00:54 You know what I mean? You you can only 1:00:55 make so many red verse blues, you know, 1:00:58 and try try to hit those before you're 1:01:01 just like, "Okay, I need to make 1:01:02 something for me or something that's fun 1:01:04 or something that's innovative." um and 1:01:07 having those those balances because how 1:01:09 are you going to make the next 1:01:10 lumberjack? How you going to make that 1:01:12 next big hit if you're not taking those 1:01:13 swings as well? Um and so yeah, it I 1:01:16 think that's great advice. I think all 1:01:18 of us can take that try to take that 1:01:19 advice because it is it is hard. So 1:01:21 before we wrap up, where can our 1:01:23 listeners follow your work and keep up 1:01:25 with your latest projects? Yeah, I mean 1:01:28 I'm most frequent on Twitterx, whatever 1:01:31 you want to call it. Yeah, under Thomas 1:01:33 Jenkee. One day I will get the Tom Jenk 1:01:36 thing, but right now it's Thomas Jenkee 1:01:38 on Twitter. That's where I am probably 1:01:41 most active. The best way to kind of get 1:01:43 to know me and what I do, my creator 1:01:45 code is Tom Jenk. Feel free to use that 1:01:48 in the store. Use it. Um, that's pretty 1:01:51 much it. That's That's awesome. And I 1:01:53 will have all of his information um in 1:01:56 the description so you guys can check 1:01:57 check him out there as well. And um 1:01:59 yeah, Tom, this was so fun. Yeah, always 1:02:02 a blast. Always a blast. It's always a 1:02:04 pleasure. No, seriously. Thank you so 1:02:06 much. And yeah, maybe we'll have to get 1:02:08 you back on after the Lego map. We'll 1:02:09 see. We'll see. Only if it does well. If 1:02:12 not, I'm just I'm just going to hide for 1:02:14 a little No, that's a that's a tall 1:02:16 undertaking. I'm going to be working on 1:02:17 a new map. That's You got to just keep 1:02:19 going. Keep pivoting. That's it. That's 1:02:21 it, man. No, seriously. Thank you so 1:02:23 much for your time and um yeah, man. 1:02:25 I'll see you at Unreal Fest and uh 1:02:28 everyone go to that talk. Last year, 1:02:30 last year I heard a lot of creators 1:02:32 saying there wasn't a lot of UEFN, 1:02:34 Fortnite creative representation that 1:02:36 much. So this year there is some. So we 1:02:39 got to show up. We got to show up to all 1:02:41 those events. Mhm. All right, man. Take 1:02:44 care. Yeah. That's a wrap on this 1:02:46 episode of Creative Juice. Huge shout 1:02:48 out to Tom Jenk for keeping it real and 1:02:50 dropping so much knowledge. From getting 1:02:52 laid off at Pixar to building viral 1:02:54 Fortnite mechanics and landing collabs 1:02:56 with TMNT and Epic, it's a reminder that 1:03:00 the path's not always clean, but showing 1:03:02 up every day does lead somewhere. If 1:03:05 this episode hit, drop a like, sub if 1:03:08 you haven't already, and let us know 1:03:10 your favorite takeaways. We've got more 1:03:12 creators, more real combos, and more 1:03:14 creative juice coming your way. Until 1:03:16 next time, keep building, keep 1:03:19 experimenting, and don't forget the next 1:03:21 viral moment might be in your drafts. As 1:03:25 always, don't hate, create.