Transcript [EN]: Bob Verlaat's Guide to Building a Brand

Brand is not about selling a product, it's about selling your reason for existence. Most brands are boring. >> You're pretty synonymous [music] with the person being the one who's kind of cracked what brand means in modern D2C. >> I bet you if you [music] were to put 5K in an awareness campaign on meta ads or you put 5K [music] on a on a cool event that people really like and enjoy and people see, probably is a return on investment. The only difference is it's immeasurable, I would say. >> [music] >> But I bet it's worth the money. >> You know, in the age of AI, brand's a big deal. You know, you can spin up any e-commerce brand, not too hard, but it's really about what makes you defensible. [music] >> What is the most important qualities that a brand could have is authenticity. Because people get lost in AI. You know this. You you see the AI brands and you see what's real. Of course, we we generate a random AI and we do generate that one-liner, but if you continue to do that for everything your brand is, then it will feel inauthentic [music] and you won't win credibility with it to customer. >> [bell] >> All right, Bob. Really excited to have you on. It's been a minute since we caught up. I think the last time was in New York, if I'm not mistaken, in Brooklyn. >> Couple of years ago already. Last time we saw each other in person. >> The last time I saw you, you were literally still working on Hears. You had shown me a pitch deck and you were you were basically showing me the plan with the music festivals, the prototypes, the designs. So, I think needless to say, it's gone pretty well. >> Pretty crazy, huh? Uh, what's uh How it's changed in uh what is it now, 2 years? Yeah, I think 2 years since the last spoke you spoke to you. >> Yeah, probably. Um, so what we want to get into today is all things brand. Um, I mean, you are the brand guy. Uh, I think especially in e-commerce and you know our our own network, you're pretty synonymous with the person being the one who's kind of cracked what brand means in modern D2C. So, I really wanted to get into that. And I'll kick off the conversation by saying you know, in the age of AI to me, there are not many moats anymore in e-commerce. Um if I had to define the moats right now, I would say there are three. The first is brand, the second is supply chain, supply chain excellence, and then the third is your team, you know, quality of your team, loyalty, efficiency, and whatnot. Brand's a big deal. Um I'm sure you could argue that there are other moats, but effectively the in this day and age, you know, you can spin up an e-commerce brand not too hard, but it's really about what makes you defensible. So, just to kick this off, what does brand mean to you? Why are you so passionate about it? And how do you see it? >> Well, well, first of all, thank you for having me and thank you for for all those kind words. Um very much appreciate it. I'm excited I'm excited to to talk about brand today. It's um it's indeed what we've been definitely focused on with the with the brands other than just selling the product. Um What brand means to me is like I think a lot of new e-commerce brands are you know, like it's it's very easy like you said yourself, it's very easy to sell product these days. Like you run an ad, you sell a product. I think what what really what brand really means here is how you tell your story. Because what what companies or new new brands are missing is that brand is not about selling a product, it's about selling your reason for existence. Um so, what brand really means to me is literally how well you communicate your reason for being. Um and and it comes with how people talk about the brand and how well they continue to tell that story. So, literally what brand is it What brand is to me is how people are talking about your brand when you're not there. >> And what sort of got you on this pathway, right? I know obviously you're involved with Thorn Rose and I know you've got your hands in many different D2C businesses, but have you always been the de facto brand guy in these organizations? Is it something that you intentionally started working on or is it something that you were just naturally very passionate or very good at? >> Yeah, I think I think for me personally it it it it really came from my my passion for brands in general, not necessarily branding or not necessarily how how to design a logo, what's one. I've just always been very interested in in the bigger brands. I was interested in in, you know, like what uh what the designer brands were doing or why someone would buy from that cereal brand instead of the other just because of the colors it uh it had or like the logo it had. It It always fascinated me. So, I think when building my own brands, it kind of came naturally by looking at, you know, all those years looking at those brands and having a a real interest in in them. Um I naturally started mimicking what those big brands were doing and applying it to my own brands when I eventually decided to uh start selling some products online. >> So, let's talk about Hers. You know, again, I I saw you before it officially started. We spoke about the concept. For me, just speaking for my own experience, I I usually start these businesses product first. Framework, size of product, margin, you know, the overall business profile. Is that how you look at it, too? Or are you sort of going at it from a vision that you have in building a community around music, for example, and audio? >> I I think it goes hand in hand. Like I don't think you're one day deciding, "Hey, I want to communicate this message to the world and I'm going to find a product with it." Though I think it it should be a thought when when launching new product. Of course you have to choose a product that is fitting well for the market, fitting well in terms of margins, in terms of in terms of pricing and something that you think you can sell well online, especially in this landscape where you know most products are doing well that they're actually solving a product. So especially with with Here's we obviously already understood what it meant to sell good to sell product online. Like we had certain criteria when it comes to weight, when it comes to problem-solving products, when it comes to sizing, you know, like in essence earplugs are a very good e-commerce product. But then the question was really if you want to sell this very good product, um how are you going to communicate that? How are you going to stand out from what's already out there because we're not the first earplug brand and there's some very big brands out there. So if you if you can decide on a vision or a reason for existence or like that message that you want to communicate and make it something exceptional compared to what's already out there, I think that's when you're winning. So good product and good brand both yeah, are both required to be successful I think in this landscape. >> So in your own words, walk me through like where you guys are and don't be humble about it. I want you to be super objective and and really share like this again as a follower of yours, um you know, moving in the same circles. I see you. I see what you're doing and it's amazing. You guys have music festivals, you've got partnerships with Saint Laurent, which obviously I want to get into. Um you know, I see you throwing parties. I see the Here's R&D concept, which I think is amazing. What is the Here's brand? What are you trying to build? >> Coming back to like first deciding product um and and then also communicating some kind of message and building a brand around that product. Um we centralize Here's about around one idea, which is a worry-less life. It's very simple simply said, um but it's it's the worry-lessness that we try to communicate with our brand is stepping away from the technical side or the medical side that that earplugs usually have. Um and that's what we're trying to communicate within every touchpoint we have with our consumer. Um so when it comes to website, packaging, when it comes to for example, events like that, um we always try to question ourselves, "What is fitting to our vision and how how are we going to creatively um um make it happen to communicate that vision?" And you're mentioning for example, Here's R&D, throwing parties. Yeah, it's it's a fun way to do it, but it's also if you're going to do events and if you want to create community, better do it this way that's fitting to the brand and um fitting to that vision instead of another pop-up where you explain everything about the product. Um and that's also what I'm really trying to do with Here's when it comes to communication and socials. I don't want to go too much in depth on the the specifications of the product. I don't want to go too much in like the medical side of things or or um the prevention of hearing protection. Of course, we do that as well because we got to educate, but the core message that I'm trying to communicate in every touchpoint that I have with the with uh with a potential consumer is to live a worry-less life. And that's that's basically um yeah, the the vision of HEAR'S and the vision that we're trying to communicate within every aspect of the company. >> I think it's really honestly admirable how you guys build brands because again there are some really sharp people that could stand up you know, in your plugs business. That part is not necessarily rocket science with the age of cloud code and Manas and you know, anyone can fly to China and whatnot, but if you go head-to-head with HEAR'S you have a community. You have a following. You've got customers that love you guys. And so that's the moat. Right? And I think at the end of today right now, most brand operators are lazy. And they sort of go for this instant gratification where it's like, okay, if you have $1,000 you put that $1,000 into meta ads. Okay, maybe you'll get $2,000 back. In brand you know, let's say you invest that into HEAR'S R&D the parties the events there might not be a $2,000 immediately that comes back to you, you know on day one. But it's a long-term moat, right? Like it it takes time to build and I'd love to hear from your perspective, you know, how you had the the perspective to think long-term because you know, you're constantly investing, right? Into events, into community into marketing that doesn't have a ROAS. Right? How do you >> Correct. >> How do you build that perspective? And this is obviously for an audience of e-com builders. A lot of them are younger than us who are just getting started, but they're thinking to themselves, hey, let me just take my dollars and immediately invest into to ROAS for an immediate gratification. >> Hey, I'm Aneesh. I just want to quickly give you more context on the world of Elevator. I'm one of the managing partners. Elevator is broken out into several groups. We've got Elevator Goods, our very own in-house brands and agencies that we're currently building every single day. Brands like Fluff Co and Jiggies. Elevator Capital is where we invest in other brands, young founders who we believe are on the come up. If you're one of those people and you're looking for either capital or mentorship or strategic connections, please get in touch with us. The studio is our physical space. Our first location is in Hong Kong and there are many more coming soon. This is a D2C membership club. If you're in Hong Kong anytime soon, please come check us out. Think founders, amazing conversations, and just learnings left, right, and center. Lastly, Elevator Talks, our newest show, where we'll be interviewing the biggest and brightest names in e-com. This is not a show for surface level. This is a show for tactics and systems where we get super, super detailed. So, last but not least, thank you so much. Please subscribe because that will help us a ton in getting you better guests and more wisdom and more value. We really appreciate it and back to the show. >> I think it's I think it's closer to a return on investment than you think. Um of course, like especially when it comes to paid media, we we understand that you know, $1 in is two, three dollars back if you're running a successful ad. However, you need to still fill your top layer and you need to still need to bring awareness to your brand in order to like people say that the the top, middle, top, middle, and bottom funnel is dead because, you know, meta is targeting automatically. There still is your awareness stage and there still is you still need to like make [clears throat] your brand known. And and I bet you if you were to put 5K in an awareness campaign on meta ads or you put 5K on a on a cool event that people really like and enjoy and people see, you're going to get your money back quicker when it comes to, for example, those events or collaborations or doing something that that gets a lot of eyeballs. Uh And the question is, are you doing it creatively enough for people to notice? Same as it goes with ads, you can run an ads, a simple ad that people will notice, but as you notice in in the whole paid media strategy, once you get out of the ordinary, once you breaking the pattern of what people are already seeing when they're scrolling, is when you're going to make money. And the same goes for for offline events, the same goes for collaborations, the same goes for email marketing, or in general, the messaging that you're putting out there. Um so doing those events is probably in the end more returning than throwing 5K or 10K on on awareness campaign. And at the same time, you're building brand and you're doing something unique. People start to love your brand, and you get noticed quicker. So it's it's a probably is a return on investment. The only difference is it's immeasurable, I'd say. But I bet it's worth the money. >> So this is why I wanted to talk to you because what you just said is not a common belief, I think. You know, if you don't have experience, right? Like you're obviously you're a seasoned e-commerce guy at this point. Been doing it for years, multiple brands, those brands have all been successful. You know what you're doing, you've got the courage to invest where it's not necessarily obvious. Love that. I think most brand builders today or just getting started do not think that way. And so I'm trying to dig into this because I think it's it's a much more viable path, but you just need a bit more courage because you know, especially if you're on limited budgets, and you need that instant gratification that's not guaranteed, right? But it's sort of much more try and tested, but right, you like you said, if you're you kind of do it the right way and you put a dollar into meta, you will get let's say at least a dollar 80 out, right? Um but it's short-term thinking. And so I don't think this is a common belief. >> I agree and I think it should like especially for new new e-commerce founders, it also shouldn't be necessarily the way to start off with with events whatsoever. It's it's definitely for for more mature brands and like being well on the way. Um because yes, the fastest growth especially towards that 500k months, million months um is definitely going to be paid media and a combination of paid media. Um but um if you want to yeah, if you want to expand uh and if you want to generate more revenue after, there's definitely an omni-channel need because you're not going to very occasionally you will, but most of the times you're not going to be fully reliant on meta ads and also I don't think as a brand you you want to be reliant on meta ads. You do want to have some um offline awareness uh at least it's also online in different channels. You want to utilize Amazon B2B, um wholesale retail, uh influencer marketing and and simply you want to you want to nail every strategy of it. Um you want to be good in every aspect of it and and that includes events or collaborations or influencer marketing what's so on. >> So I guess my question is when you started here is did you have this vision fully fleshed out? Did you kind of see this pathway? Did you know hey, we're going to be this audio brand that's going to paint out this picture of a worry-free life? Did you know you're going to throw these events? Or is it or or you kind of doing this on the fly? Because someone might argue hey, I look at Bob and this guy's got it all figured out, right? He he knew and he's just executing a plan, sort of like a master chef. >> Um to be honest, yes. Uh I did um um I did have like a dream scenario and I still have because we're only 2 years in with Hears. Um and there's still like bigger dreams that will add to this lifestyle brand and will translate this whole this whole vision that we have even better and and and bigger. But yes, when I started here is I of course dreamed as well on, you know, what would those events look like and what would our biggest collaboration look like or what would, you know, what what who would be the perfect influencer and and yeah, it's it sounds a bit spiritual but but it is a manifestation in the very end. And if you're successful e-commerce founder at one point you you wrote down where you're going to be in terms of revenue goals and and and I still do. I still do when it comes to revenue goals or collaborations and and the crazy part is I truly believe I'm I'm I'm going to. I truly believe it's going to it's going to get to that point. Of course, you don't have anything in hand and and and and there's a lot of unexpected things along the way when building a brand but at least if you have your North Star and and and wrote down the dream collaboration and you you you might find a path to it and not not everything that you write down will work out but what if what if 80% will will work out and for us it it did for some things already within the first two years of existence. >> I think another key again just from my perspective watching you and your growth is that you're building things that tie directly with what you enjoy personally and the lifestyle you enjoy. Right? Again, it just seems that you're someone who loves not just brand building but specifically this brand. Like here's is you, right? Like when I look at Represent, George Heaton. Like he says this all the time, I am Represent. Right? Represent is me and I'm Represent. And I think I've tried I've had this conversation with a lot of people but when when in when you're an entrepreneur, when you're a founder, if what you're building ties in hand-in-hand with what you personally love, you're going to show up every single day extremely hard because it's just you. That's That's what you are. And so, do you agree with that? Is that how Heers comes off for you? >> Absolutely. And not just Heers, also Do and Rose because what most people get wrong when they talk about passion is like I'm not passionate about selling pajamas. I'm I'm I'm not I don't like I I don't have a passion for sleepwear. But what I do have a passion for is building a brand that stands out in in a sleepwear industry. Um so, even with Do and Rose, it still is me because we still or and and and and of Nick, of course, my co-founder. It still is something that we think is great and we chose to do that content strategy and we chose to go for that logo, that name, and that that vision. So, it still is us even though we're not passionate about the the product itself in that case. Well, for Heers, we're a lot more passionate given, you know, also the social aspect that it's giving and the technology behind it that we've been creating. Um but in the end, the brand really is is us in a in in in in anything that we do. Um and I think you're absolutely right saying that when it comes to you have to love what you do and it really needs to be you because to be successful in this environment, um you you need to work those days and like you're making those long days and you're making those weekend days. You work 7 days a week. I don't know how many hours a day. Um you better make sure you're enjoying it because otherwise it's going to be a hell of a ride and and and no one is going to sustain building a brand that they're not passionate about. No one is. I don't I I don't believe that. >> I I agree and I think this is something I wanted to double click on cuz I did want to get to Dorm Rose. Um you know, I've I've I've also been involved with multiple brands. I started in electronics selling phone chargers, and I got into bedding selling pillows. Now I'm in supplements, selling baby powders, cooking accessories. I I think this is super important to talk about because I'm not passionate necessarily about all all these individual products, right? I focus on selling phone chargers for 7 years. And after those 7 years, I I was like, "I don't know how much more I can talk about phone chargers." Right? Like I I But I think it's so much more than that. It's the passion is around building not just the brand, but just the business. There's a There's a perfection element of how these businesses can run. Um so it's it's almost uh the front end and the back end. It But I think the underlying message is, you know, I know I've got friends, two guys who are in the pregnancy prenatal business. You know, none of them have a kid, but they've built an amazing business. They're two They're two dudes that sell, you know, pregnancy pillows. And I I love that because who cares, right? It's They've built an amazing business with amazing product. Their customers love them, and at the end of the day, it works beautifully. So I think that's a stigma that people need to break where it's like, "Oh, you need to be obsessed personally with the product." No, it's the overall game of building the business. >> Absolutely. And I I think there's also different levels of motivation, especially when you're starting. Um you know, financially that it's the biggest aspect. Um and and finance comes with a bit of freedom as well and doing whatever you want to do. Um and then secondly, like especially when when starting here is there's a whole another level of of motivation and dedication that comes alive because you know, with with the product itself, um Um, also doing something that's good for the world um and good for other people um and seeing seeing the responses of that and seeing the community being hyped about hearing protection and like um promoting us because they they vouch for our brand and they vouch for what we're doing um is another level of motivation and and and something that comes with that as well as your own pride. Um, I'm I'm really proud of what what I've built and what I'm doing with the type of products that I'm selling um which is another um level of of motivation and doing doing what you're doing. Um, so I first it for me was pure financial but I don't think that that levels as much um as the other ones. >> The key message there is maybe not necessarily passionate about let's say sleepwear but you're passionate about selling good products, things that people enjoy, high quality, things that you're proud to put your name behind. And again I'm talking about young e-com founders. People are just selling on the internet, you know, these days and I think that's a terrible terrible short-term solution. Again, like I look at you as a long-term thing here and you're doing all those things. >> I hope so. I hope so. >> I also want to get into AI. Um, you know, obviously in this day and age everything, everyone we know is just pretty much set up on Claude, Manis, all the tools, right? You name it, the Higgs fields of the world, 24/7 working on productivity, efficiency hacks but again coming back to brand is that deeply integrated into your workflow specifically on the brand side? Like are you having AI tools give you that strategy or is it still very much like a human touch, the Bomb touch? >> No, I think it's uh I think you know, in general like AI is a tool and as long as we keep seeing it as a tool and not a direct replacement of everything human, um I think it's fantastic. I think it's great. Um, Claude, uh ChatGPT, what so on. I I think especially for brand it's it's very very specific to talk about, you know, like because brand is such a such a broad term. Um, but when it comes to, you know, like brainstorming about a social campaign, for example, brainstorming about or um, thinking about how we should do this event. Yes, I I I I do use uh, a Claude or ChatGPT to help me come up with some ideas to put on this year's R&D spring break party. Um, so it's not a full automation of hey, like decide my strategy because I have my own thoughts of that and I think to do something that's out of the ordinary, um, you also should think about something that no one ever did before or at least um, think of something creatively that's not that's not necessarily uh, a ChatGPT coded. Um, but those tools can definitely help you shape it and definitely can help you um, yeah, guide some some some direction um, in into what uh, into be uh, on brand really. Um, so yeah, I I really see it as a tool rather than a replacement on what should be my brand strategy. >> Definitely agree because if it was a full replacement, you'd start seeing Chinese factories be able to build the next community and the next brand, but they struggle because they don't have that creative touch that someone like you has, for example. >> And I think I think one of the um, one of the most important um, um, qualities that a brand could have is authenticity. And if if you're building your brand because people get lost in AI. People get like, okay, it's easy, um, um, but but you notice you see the AI brands and you see what's real, um, no matter how good AI will be, you'll you'll recognize what what is authentic in a brand if it's continuing. Yes, like of course we we generate a random with AI and we and we do we do generate that one-liner, but if you continue to do that for everything your brand is, then it will feel inauthentic and you won't win credibility with it to customer. >> When you look at brands that struggle with brand, you know, founders that struggle with brand, what's like in your opinion the the biggest theme or the most common issue? >> They're boring. The the the most the most brands are boring. Um and and what I see what I see very often is uh you they're trying to be like even majority of the brands are boring because they they try to play it safe and they focus on product rather than uh you know, doing something exciting or being out of the ordinary, going with But what brands who try to be on brand do wrong um is taking is is stealing from many other brands, copying from like 20 other brands and oh, they did that social video, so we're going to try to do this. But it doesn't go viral. Uh it's not on on brand for them and it's it feels out of place really. Um and that's because good brands are simply translating their vision um or brands are stealing a lot of like different part uh from other good brands, but it will it it will it will not feel as one direction and it will not feel it will not feel as a whole. So, people will never understand the brand and they will never admire it because they don't know what it's trying to tell them. And I think that's what most brands are doing wrong is not staying true to themselves um and not trying to communicate that vision that they stand for and and are not even having a vision that is something out of the ordinary. >> How do you know when it's working? Is it, you know, obviously let's say you put this strategy together, you're executing it. At what point does it start to kick in and or or really how do you know when it starts to kick in? Is it and obviously I'm just asking kind of rhetorical questions in some senses, but is it followers? Is it better MER? Is it, you know, more referrals, word of mouth? Like how do you know when it's kicking in? >> Yeah, well, the most important thing is of course like good profits. A high good revenue is good profits. Um, but that's more like from a business perspective. I think a brand is working the moment people start talking about it. You know, like if if if you don't have to do your marketing anymore in any sense that other people are talking about your brand in a good way, preferably, that's when you know when comes across and that's when you know when your brand is working. I think. >> I think one of the things that also people don't talk about are the hidden metrics. So, for example, the the seen metrics obviously are followers, engagement, press maybe. The things people don't talk about are customer experience, customer service, for example. Like if if someone gets a a product they're not happy with or you know, a defective product and their customer service really sorts them out and gives them a pleasant experience, that's a huge that actually helps your brand that that experience versus them coming to you and getting, you know, the cold shoulder. Are you guys also applying the same theory into your customer service and customer experience? >> Absolutely. And uh I think we're what we recognized very early on is um the importance of keeping a customer rather than acquiring a new one. Um and that comes to customer service, the way your product is the way they perceive the product, um the way they experience the whole um customer journey. Um and we're still trying to work on that. We're still trying to optimize our customer service or or um speed or um you know, everything around the post purchase. Um so yes, it's it's a very crucial part for us and um probably even more important than uh acquiring as many new customers as possible. >> And again, I I think that's another thing that people are not talking about enough. Um is treating your existing customers really well and getting LTV up maybe other than just constantly acquiring more and more and more customers that are getting necessarily >> Yeah, I see the biggest brands um um that I that I talked to they they simply focus on lifetime value. Um and and they they adjust their paid media strategy based upon it. You know, like they ask themselves the question, how what is that lifetime value and how much money can we spend on acquiring a new customer? Um and and that's an very underrated um uh way of working because um most new brands are simply calculating their break-even ROAS and don't think about the rest. It's just about acquiring that customer. So that's when the brand really comes to life, of course, and that's when you going to see true scale. >> One last question that I want to get into like a rapid-fire segment. What are your thoughts on rebrands? Acceptable, unacceptable? Just in general, you know, like for example, uh brands will come out 15 years later, "Hey, here's our new brand identity, our new positioning." They've just completely changed or refreshed. Have you ever done anything like that? What are your thoughts generally? >> I I think you I I I think my brands are quite young. So we haven't done a rebrand. Um I also don't think it's needed. Um I think a rebrand could be good. Um if if the audience um Yeah, like the world is changing. So, um trends are changing, brands should be evolving. So, yes, a rebrand is definitely needed sometimes even when the when the brand image or aesthetic feels a bit outdated and not resonating with its current audience. So, yeah, I think a rebrand could be very good. >> I always wonder with the rebrands if they're based on gut or data. You know, for example, if you just feel if you know, management feels the brand doesn't work versus what really should be happening, which is talking to your customers. Um, engaging what they want, what they're seeing. I think that's another underrated tactic in D2C, which is like actual communication with your customers. >> Absolutely. It's something It's something we do every day. We look at the post-purchase survey daily. I want to know what my customer wants. I want to And it's also not just about data. It's also getting that subjective feel on who your customer is and what kind of personality they have and you you learn that only by time and really diving into the behavior of your customer and what they say and what they respond to. So, for example, your post-purchase survey is one of the most important things to really get to know your customer. Um, and a rebrand is simply the result of understanding your customer wants something different. So, a rebrand based on gut is is something that Yeah, I don't see that happening. >> Um, Bob, I want to do a a rapid-fire segment. So, I'll just shoot out questions. Gut feeling. So, first and foremost, very excited to hear yours, but favorite brand that's not yours. >> Nude Project. I think it's one of the most creative brands of of this of this time. They continue to put out content and advertising that is out of the ordinary. So, yeah, I really admire the brand. Favorite >> founder or operator that you learn from? >> Yeah, the same answer, Bruno Cucinelli's. Um, yeah, absolutely. >> The one tool or software you cannot live without. >> Pinterest. >> I like that. >> [laughter] >> And that makes sense. Most overrated e-commerce tactic. >> Uh, the most overrated e-commerce tactic is to uh uh uh e-commerce, yeah, like in in general business I'd say um micromanaging. I think you should be I think ownership in micromanaging much more often. >> Completely agree. Completely agree. Um, what about most underrated tactic? >> Um, micromanaging. >> Same. Okay, fair. What's the best investment you've made in your business? Peers, Thorn Rose, whichever. >> Getting a PA. >> Ideal revenue range for personal happiness, maximizing lifestyle. >> I don't think it's related to revenue. Um, if if financially then it's related to profit. I can't put a number on that. I think it's it's so many different aspects on uh um there's so many other um factors that they can do that need to be taken into account when it comes to, you know, freedom in life and um um in indeed like loving what you do and and and yeah, having a having a business that you thrive in. Uh, it's not just related to financials. I also don't want to paint that perspective. >> Yeah, no, I I love that. And the reason I asked that question is because just speaking from my own experience, when I was younger getting started in all this, I had I did have a number and we kind of you know, just being honest, blew past that. And I I often I often wonder, it you know, it it's it's busy, right? It's it's hectic running these businesses. It's non-stop. You don't sleep much. You work super hard. And I often wonder what's better, you know, growing a big business um that's doing these big numbers or just kind of having a smaller one on autopilot. And so I guess that's the essence of the question. >> I think it's I think it's living in um harmony with being financially free, free in life, loving what you do, as well as doing something good for the world. I think if if you nail all those in a not too exaggerated manner, then I think you're winning. >> Last one. Best perk of being an e-commerce founder? >> Freedom. Doing working from where you want, with who you want, deciding every day what's the day is going to look like and what what tasks are going to be prioritized and what people you can work with, who you can meet and the people you get to meet. There's there's a lot of perks. >> [laughter] >> Completely agree. So, is it safe to say you're pretty bullish and the optimistic on the overall industry and and e-commerce in general, where it's going, the macro side of it? >> Yes. Yes, I am. I think especially where brand is winning and where great content is winning, I think the e-commerce world is getting better and better. While the world is going to by the way, but the e-commerce world yeah, definitely improving and yeah. >> I completely agree. Bob, really appreciate it. Thought it was a great great chat. I learned a lot. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for having me.