0:02 [music] Jaco Willink, welcome to the show, man. >> Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. >> It's an honor to have you. It's an honor to have you. I can't believe it took this long, but um but here we are. And and uh seriously, man, I've been watching you for a very long time. I mean, I've heard about you when I was in the SEAL teams, and you know, even though we've never met, I just want you to know that I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and a lot of the guys that I went through buds with uh served with you, under you, and uh man, you just you just have a reputation as a leader that is is unmatched. And um I just want to say it it truly is, man. It's an honor to to be sitting across from you today. So, thank you for making the time. >> Well, I appreciate it. I was very lucky to learn from some really great people and and be surrounded by a bunch of awesome awesome dudes and awesome to see what you're doing these days getting after it for sure. >> Thank you. Thank you. But, um, 1:04 [clears throat] yeah, so everybody starts with an introduction here. Jaco Willink, a retired Navy Seal and Silverstar recipient, commanded the Seal Team 3's task unit bruiser in Rammani, Iraq. the most highly decorated special operations unit in the entire Iraq War. I did not know that until today. Um, number one New York Times best-selling author, Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt. You also own an MMA and fitness gym in San Diego. You're an OG podcaster with over a billion views. host of the presidential special Above, Below, and Beyond, celebrating 250 years of the US Navy and Marine Corp, which is streaming now. A business titan with everything from leadership consulting to Americanmade clothing and supplements to a soccer club in your portfolio. Husband to Helen and father of four, most importantly, you're a Christian. And um you know [clears throat] 2:05 Jo every year since I started this I started this in Christmas of 2019 and you know we were still at war back then. I [clears throat] guess we are kind of still right now too but but uh meaning like you know Afghanistan the same war that we were involved in. And you know, when I started this, it was uh it was pretty much all for veterans and and I wanted to make the biggest episodes, the Christmas and the Thanksgiving episode because I remember what it's like to be deployed overseas sitting on your ass or maybe not sitting on your ass, but without your family uh on Christmas and Thanksgiving. And so I always make it a point every year uh to bring something inspiring, motivational, somebody that everybody that can look up can look up to and uh and you're the perfect man for uh this year's Thanksgiving episode. So I just want to say thank you again. >> Yeah, appreciate it for the for all the guys and men and women that are overseas right now. Yeah, I did some deployments during those time frames and it's always 3:07 a good time to focus on work a lot so you don't have to think about [laughter] very much because you're missing out. >> But uh but uh I thought if it's okay with you, I thought maybe we could open this episode with a prayer. >> Sure. Perfect. [clears throat] Jesus, I just want to say thank you for having Joo here today. And um you know, we're going to release this on Thanksgiving. And Thanksgiving is just a holiday that's that's full of love, family, and friends. And um both Joo and I both know as as well as a lot of people that a lot of people are not able to enjoy those those things on Thanksgiving uh for whatever reason whether they are first responder police officer and they're out or they're in the military and they're deployed or maybe they just have a lot of loss and uh not a lot of people around them. But whatever those reasons are, we want this episode to reach them to to to bring them joy on Thanksgiving and and just 4:10 something that that they can look forward to and hopefully they can take something out of this and and that's also just for everybody in general. I know this is going to be an extremely powerful episode. There's going to be a lot of life lessons in here and and and just little nuggets that people can take with them and better their life with them. And that's that's what we intend to do here today. So, please please make that happen. Amen. [clears throat] But, um, all right, Joo. Well, [gasps] got a couple of things to crank out here before we start the big interview. So, I got a couple of gifts for you. One of them >> Oh, yeah. The famous uh the famous gummies. >> Famous Vigilance League gummy bears. Legal in all 50 states still. No funny business. It's just candy. I know you're not a big sweets guy, but maybe give him a try [laughter] >> on the flight home. So, [clears throat] >> thanks, man. >> Yeah. And then, um, I have another gift for you. This is from my friends over at 5:13 USCCA, >> and they wanted me to give you a lifelong membership. So basically what USCCCA does, you're a concealed carry Yeah. >> permit holder, which I don't know if you are in California. >> If you're not, I know Newsome, I can maybe make an introduction, but um but uh but no, if look, bottom line, if you ever have to defend yourself, your family, your friends, if you ever have to get into some type of an engagement with a bad guy, these people have your ass. They're going to take care of all of the the the the legal fees and coach you how to get through it. And uh they're a huge fan of yours. And so I just wanted to present that to you. >> That's awesome. When you go through the concealed weapons, the concealed carry course and California, the statemandated one, most of the course is them telling you what a problem it's going to be if you ever have to use your weapon. So, it's nice to have these guys as backup, man. Thank you. >> You're welcome. And then last thing before we move on here, I have a [clears throat] Patreon account. It's a 6:14 subscription account. A lot of these guys and girls have been with me since the very beginning when I was doing this in my attic and we've turned it into quite the community. So, what we do is we offer them the opportunity to ask every guest a question. This is a good one. Has to do with leadership. This is from Nick Frell. Looking back at your career now, what was your greatest flaw as a leader? What advice would you have given yourself as a young officer? Yeah. Well, for me, fortunately, I didn't have to experience much time as a young officer because I was a prior enlisted guy. But when I look back at my career, one of the biggest things that I noticed um is that I never really cared about where guy what guys what what happened after the teams. For me, it was just about the teams. And I didn't really think about it for myself. I didn't really think about it for anybody else. So, you know, for a guy, like I, for instance, I never gave anyone any financial advice. I 7:15 never said, "Hey, you might not want to buy that brand new F350 Superduty that's $70,000 and you're going to spend your whole reinlistment bonus on it. You should probably do something else with that." And I never really did that and never really encouraged anyone to get an education. You know, when someone came to me about getting an education, I'd say, "Do you want to go to sniper school? Do you want to go to breacher school? You know, we got you." And so I was very very focused on the teams and and you know that's just the way I was and I recognized when I retired that there is something after the teams and so I wish I would have paid a little bit more attention to that especially for the guys that that I was responsible for and I didn't do a great job of that. >> So you're saying in a nutshell you would have taken more of a stake in their personal lives to watch them succeed? >> Yep. Interesting. Do you feel like do you I'm learning a lot of leadership lessons right now and um do you feel and I do that uh with with with I would say 8:15 the majority of my team I take a great interest in their personal lives cuz I want them to succeed. Do you feel but there's a there's a caveat to this that I have learned um throughout doing this. Does that blur the lines? blur the lines of leadership. >> No. And and again, look, as far as their personal life, if a guy was having problems with his marriage or problems with his kids or something like that, I would do whatever I could to help him out with that. But I'm saying as far as planning, planning life outside of the teams, I just didn't I didn't think much about it. And so and and even with if a guy was having a problem with his wife or with his kids, my focus would be, okay, how can we get that fixed so you can go on deployment so you can get back to being in a platoon, which is what everybody >> everybody wants to be doing anyways most of the time. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, thank you for that. Let's [clears throat] move into let's move into your life story. So this 9:17 I want to do a life story on you. It's going to be a long one and uh there's quite a few rabbit holes that I'd like to go down with you and and and uh and and I want to use this interview for I want to learn a lot about leadership for myself. So, I know I have a lot to work on. >> You and me both. >> But [clears throat] um where did you grow up? >> I grew up in a small town in New England on a dirt road and both my parents were school teachers. Pretty normal. My mom taught English and my dad taught history. And I was not interested in either one of those things. So I was kind of a rebellious kid, but you know, nothing totally out of bounds. You know, I liked I I had a lot of energy and probably a lot of aggression. And so it it you know, I was kind of looking to get out of that town as soon as I could when I was growing up. And that's why the military is a nice opportunity to do that. >> Siblings? >> Yeah, I got an older sister and a younger sister. >> So you're a middle child? >> Yep. Middle child. 10:18 >> No [ __ ] I was not expecting that one. >> Yeah. Well, and yeah, I forget what the middle child is supposed to be like. Am I not like the middle child? >> Uh that I wouldn't I wouldn't consider you to be a middle child, but uh but there is a >> character what's the characteristics of the middle child? >> I don't know how to articulate that. >> Fair enough. I think that the characteristics of a middle child would be bouncing around a lot from thing to thing >> and um and trying to find your place. >> Yeah. No, I found my place. >> I know you did. I know you did. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> What were you into as a kid? >> You know, I wasn't really great at any sports. You know, I played soccer and basketball. I wasn't really good at either one of them. I was okay. Um but not definitely not great. Um, I like music. I liked hardcore music and heavy metal. And that's where I spent a lot of my time listening to hardcore music and heavy metal when I was a kid. Um, 11:19 surfed, luckily, skateboarded. Um, went to hardcore shows in New York City when I was a young kid, which was amazing. And you know, that kind of uh scratched my rebellious I' I've always been a little bit of a rebellious kid. And so that kind of made me feel like I was scratching that itch. And I just related to it, you know? I related to the first time I heard like heavy music. It I I it sounded right to me [laughter] as opposed to a lot of the, you know, other music that was out there, you know, like pop music. I just didn't it didn't sound right to me, but hardcore and heavy metal sounded right to me. And and there was a lot of that uh kind of push yourself also like a DIY ethic of hey we you got to do stuff yourself. If you want to if you want to do something, 12:20 if you want something, you got to go make it happen. And that that stuck with me for sure. >> When did uh when did jiu-jitsu start for you? >> My first platoon. Oh, it didn't start until your first time. Okay. >> Yeah, jiu-jitsu was not even remotely a thing when I was growing up. It wasn't like Brazilian jiu-jitsu was completely unheard of. This is in the in the 80s in America. There was no Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It wasn't even in the magazines yet. It was nowhere. So, that wasn't wasn't until my first platoon where I got introduced to Brazilian jiu-jitsu. >> What about wrestling? >> Didn't wrestle. My high school was too My high school didn't even have a wrestling team. >> How big was your town? graduated with 85 people in my class. >> Yep. >> It's like where I grew up. >> Yep. Small small town. >> What what what uh what got your interest in the military then? >> I do not remember actually wanting any to do anything else. The only thing I ever wanted to do as far as a job goes was be some kind of commando. And I collected little 13:21 soldiers when I was a little kid. I had the the the British Commandos from World War II. I had a little airfix set 132nd size of British Commandos and they had Zodiac boats and they had kayaks and they had, you know, the black watch caps on and I thought that that was the coolest thing and eventually I figured out that you could have that as an actual job. [laughter] [snorts] Very cool. Very Let's I want to go back real quick to the rebellious. What? Why do you think you were so rebellious? >> I don't know. I don't know. I think part of it's like psychologically, right? You I think all all kids will have this. You have to rebel against your parents at some point because you have to get out of there. You have to leave them. And so you kind of create friction so that you can release. So I think that was part of it. And I also think I just looked around at the world and just, you know, had the angst of a young teenage child. You 14:22 know, you got a lot of testosterone flowing through your blood and you just want to fight and get after it. And that's kind of that's kind of what I did. >> Were you a troublemaker? [snorts] >> I was I was a borderline troublemaker, but also like I I didn't drink, didn't do any drugs. Um, there was a whole like subgenre of music called straightedge music, which I wasn't fully into that, but straight edge music is like no drinking, no drugs. >> And but I was close enough to it that I that's the way I heard that messaging of, you know, drinking and drugs were bad. >> That's kind of a weak thing to do. And so never did never did never drank and never did drugs in in high school. >> How would you rebel? Would it be violence? Yeah. Going to hardcore shows, listening to punk rock music, listening to hardcore music, shaving my head, you know, getting in fights, just that kind of stuff, >> right? [laughter] That kind of stuff. Where did where did 15:24 Christianity get rooted into you? >> So, I was, you know, we we went to a church growing up. We went to St. Michael's church and probably probably did maybe three three to five years of that where and you know when you look back you know people go where do you get your values from and I think that's pretty much as a as an American that's where our values come from you know it's like that's what you're hearing and so that's probably the time well that's that's the time where I was going to church and you know you're going to you're going to absorb those values. Mhm. Do you I mean did you do you feel like you had a strong faith as a kid or did that come later on or >> for where I'm from? That's just kind of normal, man. >> Yeah. >> It's just it's not some, you know, big deal. >> Gotcha. >> It's like this is this is this is what you do. Um, and like I said, when you 16:24 get, you know, I always talk about the fact that you learn a lot when you're you you get a lot of your DNA when you're in your first SE platoon because it's all new and so it imprints on you. And I think that's just growing up, you know, you go to church, it's imprinting on you and that's where that's what stays with you. >> So, let's move back to the the moving into the military. So, [clears throat] what drew you to the SEALs? man. Um, I had a friend that did the Army program. You used to be able to go and join the Army reserves in in between your junior and your senior year, you'd go to boot camp. And I had a friend that did that and when he came back, he told he told me this story and I've I've joked about it because I don't know if it's true or not. It's probably not. At least it's not totally true. But this guy told me that when he was in boot camp, they were out on this track. They were out in Fort Benning and they're 17:24 they're they're out there doing morning PT or something like that. And there's a guy with cammy pants on, combat boots, a t-shirt, and a rucks sack and a ponytail. And he's long hair and a ponytail, and he's running around this track. And this friend tells me the story that he asked the drill sergeant. He said, "Drill sergeant, who's that?" And the drill sergeant, without looking back, just keeps looking forward and goes, "Delta." And then my buddy goes, "Jill sergeant, is there anyone that's tougher than Delta?" And the drill sergeant, without looking back at him, just says, "Cal." [laughter] And so I heard that story, dude. I'm a freaking young kid. And and and that was it, man. again, you know, I don't even know if that actually happened, but you want to know where I first started thinking about the SEAL teams, that was it. And like I said, I grew up in the water, so knowing that the SEALs worked in the water, you know, I surfed as a 18:24 kid up in Maine, which was awesome. And so just having that tie to the water. And then the SEAL teams were stationed. I figured out that the SE seal teams were either in San Diego or Virginia Beach, both of which were cool places in my mind. And so I said, "That sounds awesome. Join the SEAL teams and get stationed either in San Diego or Virginia Beach. You can surf and do commando stuff in the water." Like >> it's a literal no-brainer to me as a kid. >> Did you look at it? Did you look at any of the other branches or you were just like I'm going to do that? >> You know, of course the Marine Corps is always tempting for a young kid because the Marine Corps presents such an awesome image and they're such an awesome unit. But I I saw the SEAL teams as again it just fit with everything that that I thought about being a a military personnel would be would be that. What age did you enlist? >> 18. >> 18. >> Yeah. >> What did your parents think? Uh, I think they were pretty happy. >> Were they really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Because I was, you know, 19:27 it's like you have a plan. That's a I love the military. The military gave me everything. The Navy gave me everything. But initially, what they gave me was a plan. This is what you have to do. If you do these things, you're going to be successful. And you get a blank slate when you go in there. No one cares what your background is. No one cares who your parents are. No one cares what grade you got in high school. They just this is what you got to do. And so, yeah, my parents were stoked. My dad did say uh he said you're not going to like it. [laughter] And I said, "Why not?" And he said, "Because you don't like authority. You don't let you don't listen to anyone else." And of course, since I knew everything, I looked at him. I said, "Hey, you know, Dad, it's not like that in the SEAL teams. It's a team and there's no bosses. You do everything together." So [laughter] that's how ignorant I was. But yeah, you know, pretty pretty ignorant going in into the military, you know, not growing up around it. My my dad got kicked out of ROC. As a matter of fact, my grandfather was in the army. >> He was he was a 20-year army guy, but I 20:28 didn't know him very well. He died when I was about 10, so didn't have a lot of military information and just thought that the SEAL team sounded like a good fit for me. >> And you joined in, was it 90? >> 1990. >> 1990. what was going on in the world in 1990. >> Yeah. So, well, the Gulf War, the original Gulf War, the buildup for the Gulf War was starting and that's where I I was thought I'd be going. Yeah, I was pretty pretty stoked about that. >> Right on. >> Because Panama had happened in '89. >> Yeah. >> And that was another thing that made me think, wait a second, these guys are out fighting and dying for our country and I'm s not doing that. They're This is This is embarrassing. So, how do I get in? Who are those guys and how do I go join them? >> So, you enlisted 18 1990, go to boot camp. 21:29 Where do we go from there? >> Yeah. I mean, I I was really stoked when I got to boot camp, you know, because again, for me, it was like blank slate. Here we go. I had one buddy that rode on the bus with me uh who was he looked at me and he goes, "Are you going Seals?" And I said, "Yeah." And he said, "Me, too." And so we just we just hit it off real quick. And he had been through college already. He had he had knowledge, you know, um he understood more than I did. I think he had a mentor that was a SEAL. And so, but he he we broed up real quick and he ended up making it through maybe a class behind me. and uh he ended up, you know, as a master chief in the SEAL teams, but just a great dude. Um, you know, he wrestled in college, just a great guy. So, you know, went to boot camp and and then again, I was super, you know, just so uh open-minded to like what was coming and happy about being there and just stoked to go to Buds. And 22:30 then showing up at Buds, it was like the best thing ever. Yeah, man. Did you I mean I'm c Did you have Did you meet an actual seal at all before you? >> No [ __ ] N you showed up. >> I saw one in boot camp and I just saw one in boot camp and I think it was a guy that I met later [snorts] who was getting reprocessed. He had been out of the SEAL teams for a while and then he'd coming back in and I kind of recognized him because you know I saw one SEAL when I was in boot camp and I recognized him later and I talked to him. He's just a super chill guy but in my mind you know he's this seal so you think he's you know the coolest thing in the world. [laughter] >> Yeah. Damn. [clears throat] But no, I never knew any SEALs before I joined. >> So how was it showing up for Buds for you? >> It was awesome. >> Were you intimidated? I mean, I would say [clears throat] not really. I wasn't really intimidated, 23:32 but I definitely didn't know much about what was going on. Uh, when I showed up, there was a there was a poster in medical. They had a Texas Chainsaw Massacre poster in medical, but they'd crossed out Texas Chainsaw Massacers and they replaced it said Buds Pool Comp. And they put like a snorkel or whatever, a mask on the kid. And I didn't even know what pool comp was, you know, I didn't know anything about it. And I was, that's interesting. I wonder >> I guess they didn't have >> Yeah, there's any of the documentaries or any of that kind of stuff out. >> Nothing. So, I wasn't really intimidated, but I was just excited, man. I was just excited. And, you know, like I said, I wasn't the fastest runner. I wasn't the fastest swimmer. I wasn't I wasn't really that good at anything in particular, but I wasn't that bad at anything in particular either. And I was young. I could recover quick. I was fired up. I was very used to the cold. Uh but you know, you're meeting guys that are total studs. You know, you're meeting guys that are D1 athletes and 24:34 whatever. I had Olympic I had an Olympic alternate in my BUDS class for gymnastics. Like, how fast can that guy do the O course compared to me? You know what I'm saying? And uh some D1 water polo players and you know, just the whole the whole nine yards. And I was just young and just fired up to be there. Stoked. >> How many people were in there? Do you remember? >> I don't really know. Probably I don't know. A couple I mean 150. I I actually don't know. >> A lot of people. >> I'd have to I'd have to look at it. >> But >> how did you I mean did you measure yourself up against the people that you were seeing when you showed up? Like oh [ __ ] that guy's going to make it. that guy's not going to make it. If that guy made it, you you know what I'm talking about. >> There was a couple guys that, you know, uh seemed like studs that quit. The gymnast that I was talking about, Olympic gymnast or Olympic alternate gymnast quit. Had a D1 water polo player 25:35 that quit. I had there was there was definitely some studs that quit and I realized, oh, there's a wrestler from Iowa that quit. Not not not the college, but he was a stud. So yeah, I realize that this isn't all about, you know, what your athletic background is because it's about being cold, wet, miserable, and suffering. And if you don't like that, you're going to have problems. [laughter] >> Did you have any problems? >> I failed uh I failed a run. I failed a swim. I failed the no course. I failed pool comp. I failed like everything one when I went through. If you failed something twice, you got rolled. >> Mhm. But if you failed something once, you could stay with the class. And so if you failed two runs, you got rolled. And then if you failed one of the next class, you got dropped. So I only failed one of everything, you know. And and some of the ones were, you know, like there was some swims that pretty much almost everyone in the class failed cuz the tide or the current or whatever. There were some runs where a lot of people failed because it maybe wasn't 26:36 quite four miles [laughter] >> and then a little over. Yeah. Yeah, it was a little over. But so I failed a little bit of everything, but not enough to get me rolled. Um, and I stayed with my class the whole time. Made it through one shot. >> How did you deal with failure? >> I just just tried to go harder. You know, I failed a run. I paced myself on a run, which I wasn't fast enough to pace myself. I needed for basically everything I did in Buzz, I just need to go 100%. >> Mhm. And probably I don't know my third or fourth run in first phase I was kind of like oh I I'll try pacing myself and so I went out of pace and I just was wrong and failed. And so I never paced myself again on those runs. I just ran as hard as I could because that's the only thing I wanted to do man was get through that training and and be a seal. So, I just put out hard and that's that's how I overc I overcame failure just by pure just aggressive hard work. Man, we got I I failed pool comp and 27:40 me and my one of my buddies, we got this shouldn't even be legal, but we got we got dive equipment from Divephase to practice with, but we wore it in the dip tank. So we were we were pool comping each other in the dip tank [laughter] >> on a weekend >> and and then then got got through it on Monday, you know. So >> So for those that are listening, pool comp is an exercise that you do in second phase. It's open circuit diving and it's one of the more strenuous weeks that you go through in buds. A lot of people fail it. It's it's a lot of people say that pool comp they basically beat the [ __ ] out of you underwater with tanks on. >> A lot [clears throat] of people say that pool comp is the is the last major hurdle that you're going to have to pass uh to get through buds. >> Yeah. >> So, [clears throat] but how did you I mean, how did you deal with the mental stress? Did that affect you at all or was it was it the physical 28:41 stuff or was it both? >> I mean, I had fun, you You know, [clears throat] I'm not and I'm not saying it wasn't hard. Like hell weeks hell week's hard. You're it's cold, wet, miserable, but I mean, I wasn't really mentally stressed. I was kind of having fun, you know? I enjoyed it. Like, man, you're going to get to be a frog man. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'll do what I would have done whatever they told me to do. Like I think there's some people that show up to BUDS that they they would rather die and I I was definitely in that category. So, you know, and I think they figured that out, you know. I think they figured out with guys they go, "Yep, this guy, we're not going to break this guy." Cuz they'll try, you know, but eventually they go, "Yeah, we can maybe hurt him physically, but we're not going to break him mentally." So, for somebody that's going through buds right now, would you have any advice for them or what would your one piece of advice be? >> Yeah, I tell people this one piece of advice all the time. Don't quit. 29:43 >> Love it. >> You know, and that statistically is right because the vast majority of people that make it through buds, they quit. They don't get performance. If you like if you get rolled for a run, you're going to have six weeks to get better at running. >> Mhm. You'll you you can pass the runs. If you get rolled for swimming, if you get rolled for pool comp, you're going to get good at pool comp for the next six weeks until you start up with your next class. What' you do for those six weeks? You practice pool comp over and over and over again. So, the people that don't make it, generally speaking, quit. So, if you don't quit, you should be in a pretty good spot. >> So, don't quit. >> Yeah, >> it's a good point. >> So, where do you go after Buds? >> Got done with Buds and I went to Seal Team One. How was that? >> Did you pick one? >> Yes. >> Why? >> Well, I didn't pick one, but I picked West Coast. And you know, it's I was going to say this when you talked about being intimidated showing up to Buds and I was kind of like, not really 30:45 because it's a big game and it's, you know, get wet and be cold and do push-ups. It's kind of fun. But when I got to Seal Team One, I was definitely, it was intimidating going to Seal Team One. I was definitely uh there the the atmosphere for a new guy at SEAL team one was intimidating. >> I've heard the stories. >> Yeah, it was definitely intimidating. We we went myself and uh two other new guys were checking in to the Master Chief. We're standing outside of his door in our uniforms and parade rest and he calls us in there and we go to attention. We we walk in. and we're standing at attention and he says uh he says, "Fuck you. [ __ ] you. [ __ ] you. Everyone here has been to Buzz. It doesn't mean [ __ ] Get out of here." [laughter] Cool. So then the next we had like all the new guys assembled together and that Master Chief came in and said um he said, "Don't be 31:47 late. Don't forget anything and keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Those are really that's really good advice. >> Mhm. >> Don't be late. Don't be light and and keep your mouth shut and your ears open. And that's the way that's the way it was, you know? That's the way it was. Keep your mouth shut. Keep your ears open and try and absorb everything that's going on. And again, this is 1991, man. like the Gulf War that I thought I was going to be in that they were reporting that there was going to be 30 or 40,000 casualties was over in 72 hours. I missed the whole thing. So, this is just a peace time organization. And even even with that, it was pretty pretty pretty intimidating to walk into. My days don't slow down. Between work, the gym, and time with the kids, I need eyewear that can keep up with everything I've got going on. And that's why I trust Roka. I've tried plenty of shades 32:49 before, but these stand out. They're built for performance without sacrificing style. I've put them through it all on the range, out on the water, and off-road. They don't quit. They're lightweight, stay locked in place, and are tough enough to handle whatever I throw at them. And the best part, they don't just perform, they look incredible. Sleek, modern, and designed for people who expect more from their eyewear. 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I'm Sean [music] Ryan and this is Target Intelligence SCOP, an Ironclad original. In this [music] eight-part audio experience, we uncover the ghosts in the machine. Buy it today at scopshow.com. 35:07 Real quick, I just want to go back to Bud's graduation. I mean, [clears throat] sounds like the majority of your childhood, you wanted to get into the military. You found the the teams, which, you know, is the, if not one of the best, you know, soft units to be in. I mean, what did it feel like for you to graduate? You know, back then we didn't get our trident in or anything. You know, we just you just graduated and you still had a lot of hurdles to overcome. I was always pretty paranoid. You know, you asked like when I failed something, I was very paranoid about failing, not wanting to fail. And so, even going to knowing that I was going to SEAL team one, knowing I graduated Buds, it felt good, but it didn't feel like I had completed the journey at all. It felt like, okay, now you got to get through SEAL tactical training and you got to get through your your board with the the team. So, I didn't have some, you know, elevated feeling of I made it. I never really got that feeling in my 20 years. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, back to team 36:08 one. I [clears throat] mean, so you get into team one. What What kind of What kind of team guys are there? What have they been through? I mean, we're we're in peace time. You talked about Golf War, you know, that was pretty short. What What kind of experience was in Seal Team One when you showed up? >> Other than a couple Vietnam guys, there was relatively speaking almost no experience. Almost no combat experience. >> No [ __ ] >> Yep. And so it was kind of weird because the way we trained, you were training for something that no one really understood. And as much as like the Vietnam guys passed down as much as they could, but it still was like you you you didn't really know what it was you were training for. And that made us train very very hard because it seemed like combat was this unfathomable uh tough thing and so we better train as 37:11 hard as we possibly could. And we thought we hoped and prayed that we would get to do one mission. You know, that was the the hope and the prayer was maybe we'll get to do one what we used to call the realworld mission. >> Yeah. >> You know, real world mission. We would hope and pray that we would get to do some real world mission and we trained as hard as we possibly could. Everyone was very there was a lot of team one was very they called it stalog team one and uh there was another name for it but it was very strict. >> I've always heard no fun one. >> No fun one. Yeah. They had a bunch of names for a bunch of names for no fun one. Stalog team one. And yet in my first platoon, the older guys would say, "Team one, it's not just a number, it's an attitude." Which again, now that I, you know, when I got older, when I was young, dude, I was like, that's a real thing. Like, this is this is our attitude. And so, you know, 38:11 we literally had haircut inspections every two weeks, uniform inspections with our camies. Like, it was we had command PT every day. Um, everything was very professional and that's how I fit in well with that, you know, and or I should say it fit me well because I liked the military and that's what we were doing. >> That's interesting considering you don't like authority. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe at this point I had recognized that this was this was that professionalism was part of the job for me, you know, for like that that level of professionalism that I saw was that was what we were supposed to be like. That was the job. So I bought into it, man. you know, go. It sounds like 39:14 when you went to one, when you got into the teams, it sounds maybe maybe similar to what guys might experience today. You know, you've you've got a lot of past experience. Sounds like when you came in it was a little bit of past experience with the Vietnam guys, but I mean, you know, the Giwa guys, it's every day there's got to be more and more guys, you know, retiring, calling it a day, moving on with their with their lives. And now you have this younger generation that's coming in that, you know, isn't they're not do I don't know, maybe they are doing a lot, but I don't think they're doing a lot. I don't think we got a lot of guys in Ukraine and and so, you know, I mean, do you think it's Are we in a similar time today? >> It's a very similar time. It's a very similar time. I tell those young guys now, I didn't shoot my weapon at the enemy for 13 years. And and the way you just expressed that, I would have never expressed that 40:15 because I was having a freaking great time. >> We were training hard. We were jumping out airplanes. We were, you know, diving and shooting machine guns and blowing things up and like that's what we were getting ready, getting ready, getting ready. And so I understand the expression cuz now of course we all look back like, gosh, how could you wait around for 13 years? But that's what it was. That's what we lived in. That's the water that we drank. That's what And so it was, hey, this is what we're doing. And by the way, you're with an awesome bunch of guys. We have fun. You everything is like super professional and also super fun. You know, it's it's being in a SEAL platoon, man. Yeah. >> There's I don't I would rather if I could just >> Heaven for me would be just like seal seal platoon. >> Seal platoon forever. That's what we're doing. And we go to war, cool. We go train, cool. That's what we're doing. It's the best job. And so, I didn't I didn't know enough to go, I can't believe I got to go on deployment again. No, I want to go on deployment. >> Oh, there's nothing happening. Cool. We're going on deployment. We're going to go to this country, that country. 41:14 We're going to work with these group, that group. Maybe something will happen. And if it doesn't, we're still going to be out here doing our best. So, I didn't I I I didn't I had a good attitude the whole time. Like, it was exactly where I wanted to be. Being in a SE platoon was just as good as it gets, man. Yeah. I guess, you know, I could totally see that. I mean, I I guess that that attitude probably came in with my generation when we came in. It was it had I mean, I joined in 2000 July of 2001. Y >> and uh so by the time actually like 2 days after I graduated boot camp, the towers went down. So I I knew >> I guess I didn't know. >> Yeah. That's a different level of frustration, right? Where if your country is at war and you joined the teams to go to war >> Mhm. >> if you're not going Yeah. There's going to be that's going to that's going to be angst, right? That's going to be problematic for sure. And but when there's nothing going on >> Mhm. just I didn't I didn't know enough to be 42:16 frustrated about it. We're having a good time in a >> I mean I think that would come in too. I mean is is I mean I think that attitude comes in as well when you when you see platoon go out and do something and you haven't yet and then that creates you know I don't I don't know if jealousy is the right I mean yes it definitely creates jealousy and and and maybe some discontent uh throughout the community but so where did you go where where was your first deployment? first deployment was to Guam and this is where I got introduced to jiu-jitsu. So, >> how did that happen? >> Uh there was we show up in Guam and this is after our workup. So, we're there and we're sitting in our platoon hut one morning and this Master Chief comes in old Master Chief like he had to be at least like 39 years old or something like that, but he looked like an old man and he's old lanky old guy. and he says, "Who wants to learn how to fight?" 43:16 And I'm like, "I don't know what this old guy thinks he's going to teach me, but me and a few other guys, new guys, we raised our hands and all right." So, we went to uh the Navy base had like a judo training mat and he told us to meet him there at a certain time and this guy's name was Steve Bailey. who was a awesome master chief in the SEAL teams and he was a Muay Thai fighter and he had been training jiu-jitsu with the Gracies in Torrance in the late 80s. So he was like what right now would be consider considered like a midlevel white belt in jiu-jitsu and he just lined us up and just tapped us all out over and over again. It's it's hard to explain to people how little we how little human beings knew about fighting in 1992 before the UFC. Like no one even understood the guard or the mount or the rear naked choke or the camir or the armlock. There was it didn't even exist. 44:18 It wasn't it wasn't even it didn't even exist, man. And so this guy, you don't even know that he's passing your guard. You don't even know what the guard is. You don't know that he's mounted because you don't even know what the mount is. You don't know that he's taking your arm. You don't you have no comprehension of what's happening. And so he just annihilated us. And to me, I just thought to myself, this whatever this freaking guy knows, I will do whatever I can to learn it. And so we started training with him. That was my introduction to jiu-jitsu. >> Wow. It has stuck with you ever since. >> Yeah. >> So how long has it been since then? Well, that was in 1992, 1993. So, >> Wow. So, what 20? No. Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] 30 >> Yeah. >> Whatever. 33 years. Is that right? >> Something like that. >> Wow. 33 [ __ ] years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There was something that I recognized very quickly that it was I had to learn this thing, this stuff. 45:18 >> Yeah. >> And now you're a black belt. Yeah. Yep. So that was my first platoon. We go to Guam and this is 93. There's, you know, we go and do exercises. We work with other, you know, host nations. Again, I'm having a good time. Um, you know, we're training hard. We're we're partying hard. We're doing what kind of like young SEALs do. Um but you know there's no war going on except for there was some things that were happening in Somalia and so there was some guys on board ship from the east coast and the west coast that did some kind of operations in Somalia that they went from the ship to go do these operations. Now, SEALs back in the '90s, no one wanted to go on the ship, right? And so, I got back from that first platoon and me and a few of my buddies, we were like, "Hey, we know 46:20 what we did in Guam," which was nothing. And we know what the guys that were on the ships, they went to Somalia. Let's go on the ships. And so, me and a few of my buddies from that first platoon that I'd gone through buds with, and we' done that first platoon, we volunteered to go on a shipboard deployment. And everyone's like, "What are you guys doing?" We're like, "That's seems to have the best chance." So that's [snorts] what we did. We did we volunteered for what was called an ARG platoon on the East Coast. It's called a MAG platoon. We volunteered for the ARG platoon and we went and did a shipboard deployment, which for me was awesome because we had a lot of assets to train with. We worked very closely with the Marine Corps, which was awesome. We did, you know, we trained we did like their shooting package with the force recon guys. We trained with them. We did ship boarding with them. We we did we did stuff a lot of stuff at Camp Pendleton after our own work up and I also got to learn and understand the structure of the Marine Corps and how they operated which gave me an insight onto conventional forces at large and what they were doing interacting with the 47:19 Navy. It was very very beneficial for me. I was uh I was a primary comm's guy in my first platoon for whatever reason. They didn't have a prim primary comms guy. And I had gone to comm school. As a matter of fact, on the east coast, the SEAL comm school on the east coast, which was awesome. And so then I was a primary comms guy in my first platoon. So now I'm the primary comms guy in my second platoon, which means I'm sitting with the officers during planning. I'm, you know, uh, learning how the communications work, learning about contingencies, learning about loss of comm's plan, learning about QRFs, like I was learning things that I wouldn't have been learning if I had been a machine gunner. >> Mhm. >> So, I got very lucky that I was a comms guy and I had volunteered to be a comm's guy. And the reason I had volunteered to be a comms guy was my third day at SEAL team one. I had quarter deck watch back when we used to stand watches. And the officer of the deck, which was another SEAL said, "Hey, new guy." I was like, "Hey, sir." And he said, "Uh, if you 48:20 want to be on every mission, be a comm's guy because uh no matter what the mission is, you will get to go because if you know how to work comps." And the next morning when we woke up, I went up to the comm shack and I said, "Hey, I want to be a comms guy." Which again, no one had ever volunteered to be a comm's guy. So I volunteered to be a comm's guy. And then I was a primary comm's guy in my first platoon. And now I was a primary comm's guy in my second platoon. And then probably one of the most influential things of my life happened in my in my second platoon. So there was actually a couple pretty pivotal moments. The first one was um we had a we had an assistant platoon commander in my second platoon. His name was Alton Lee Grisard and he was an absolute freaking stud. Just he was the quarterback at the Naval Academy. He was a record setting. Like he broke Roger Stalbuk's records at the Naval Academy. He was complete charismatic 49:21 guy. Fun, nice, uh charismatic, the whole nine yards. And I was really good friends with him. Really good friends with him. And he got killed. He got murdered. >> He got murdered. >> He got murdered in a murder suicide. So, uh, you can go back and look at the news on this, but >> what is a murder suicide? >> Meaning a guy suicide by a cop or something like No, he he was he was there was a guy from the Naval Academy, another guy from the Naval Academy who was a submariner who had been dating a girl from the Naval Academy who I think was a surface warfare officer. They had been dating. They broke up. Grizz had been like hanging out with her and this guy showed up at the BOQ, the Bachelor officer's quarter on on um Coronado, banged on the door and Grizz opened the door and the guy shot Grizz, 50:21 shot the girl and killed himself. >> Holy [ __ ] And so re really heartbreaking, terrible scenario. And I was really good friends with him. And we had had we had had he was one of the first people that had a video camera like a normal person with a video camera. And we had made this video. We were down in um Panama doing Jungle Warfare training and we'd gone out and there was this song that said whoop. There it is. You remember this song? [laughter] And so he had filmed, we were hanging out with these Panamaeanian girls and these girls were saying whoop aa because they didn't speak English and we were just like in a you know partying with these girls and and he had taken this video and he'd shown his dad and his dad was a warn officer in the Navy and his you know his dad he had grown up in Japan for the most part and so Grizz had 51:24 showed this video to his dad of me and him you know with these pan Manian girls laughing in a bar saying whoop aea cuz we were just laughing. So when we go to they had a big service at the Naval Academy because he's a hero at the Naval Academy and I met his dad and you know his dad recognized me and um you know I told his dad because he had told me cuz I said to him I said to him one day I told his dad I said you know I said to your son one day I said hey you grew up in Japan like you're going to a Japanese high school how did you learn to play football? And he said, "My old my old man taught me." And as that happened, you know, I got I was very uh you know, obviously we're all we're all broken up for this, but I don't know what I don't 52:24 I wasn't behaving properly. and my my run-in mate from the SEAL teams who I went through BUDS with, I went through SCT with, I did three platoon with this guy, I was in training cell and this guy was my roommate the whole time, just like my my my runin mate. And he he pulled me aside and he was like, "Hey, Grizz didn't you're not the only one that lost Grizz." And I thought to myself, um, he's 100% right. And what it made me aware of is that the way you perceive yourself is not going to be accurate all the time. And you have to be very cautious in the way you behave because you you think you're behaving a certain way, but the other people's perception is going to be different. And there's a 53:25 really good chance that their perception is more accurate than your own. And that that struck me. And this guy was, you know, this guy was my best friend. And and he's telling me like, "Hey, bro, you're not the only one that lost Grizz." And I'm acting like I was like he like I was the only one that lost Grizz. So it made me aware of that that again just the way you perceive yourself is not the way other people are going to perceive you. So we go through that. How do Hold on. This is how do you find how do you today I mean that's a big [ __ ] lesson. I I I would take that as a big lesson like you did as well. >> It was a huge lesson. So how did you moving forward from that how did you how do you find out how people are perceive are perceiving what you're projecting? I think it's generally speaking they're going to purs you you my assumption is that what I'm doing is viewed as 54:26 negative. My assumption is that if I'm doing something the the the assumption is it's viewed as negative. And so if you assume that what you're doing is being perceived as negative, it keeps me in check from behaving in a way that is going to be perceived as negative. I mean, to the best of your ability. I'm not saying, you know, of course, just like every other human, you we're all going to slip up, but recognizing that like, man, and thank I'm so thankful that my that I was had a good enough relationship with this guy to to tell me that because otherwise I never would have you never would see this disconnect between how you're perceived and what you think you're being perceived as. And it was something. It wasn't like I thought to myself, oh, here's how people are seeing me. I was just acting the way I was acting, but it was being perceived in a way that I didn't mean at all. It didn't have any intention, but I could see as soon as he said it, I go, "Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. You you you 55:29 you need to look at yourself. You need to detach from, you know, the sadness and go, "Oh, yeah. What does it look like? What does it what does it feel like?" Never mind what it looks like. Cuz their perceptions are not wrong. Like I said, their perceptions are right. Oh, I had this video. His dad recognized me. I must be, you know what I mean? Like that's all that's all bad stuff. And I didn't recognize it until my my buddy let me know. And I was very very grateful. And it definitely made me recognize that yeah, people's perception of you is not what you think it is. And that's if if you're not careful, you can really get yourself a bad reputation. >> Mhm. and and obviously as you know reputation in the SEAL teams is everything. You know your reputation in the SEAL teams is everything. So I was just very thankful that he gave me that heads up. Um, and then again what made this platoon very impactful for me, 56:29 Field Team One, Alpha Platoon, we had a platoon, our platoon officer, our OIC was pretty much a new guy who had lat transferred from another part of the Navy and he had come in as our platoon commander and which is no big deal, right? It's really no big deal. Like officers don't have a lot of experience. It's not that big of a deal. They listen to what you have to say. They listen to the platoon chief. They listen to the LPO and they figure it out. Except for this guy didn't really want to listen. And so it ended up causing some friction in the platoon. He, you know, was one of those guys where it, again, he probably didn't realize how he was being perceived. And he was being perceived as arrogant, being perceived as conceited, being perceived as not listening to the rest of the platoon, including the platoon chief, including the platoon LPO, and he was dictating, you know, like this is how we're going to do this and this is the way it needs to be and just wasn't 57:29 listening. So, it's problematic, but you know, we're what are you going to do? Carry on. Well, then we had a we were at a desert warfare training and he presented some plan to us and it was a bad plan [snorts] and the LPO had like had enough of it was like sir this plan is stupid and you know since the guy had a big ego they got in each other's faces and then the the OIC takes a swing at the LPO >> and we split them up. Yeah, it's which again, we've seen plenty of interplatoon fights. I mean, it's a thing. It's almost like its own sport, right? But when there's this much tension and negativity, it's a problem. And so, we got done with that and we we go back and we kind of had like a platoon meeting without the platoon commander and we told the platoon chief like, "We don't want to work with this guy." platoon chief brings it up the chain of command and we have a we 58:30 request captain's mask like not official but we want we request to go talk to the co. So we go to the co's office and the co like lines us up you know from the chief on down and he goes down the line like what's the problem? What's the problem? What's the problem? And we're all saying the same stuff. This guy's arrogant. He doesn't listen to us. It's his way or the highway. And we get done and the CO says, "You know what this sounds like to me? This sounds like a mutiny. We don't have mutinies in the Navy. We're not going to have a mutiny at my SEAL team. Guys, go figure this out." Cool. We walk out of the office and this the CEO was a good guy who started to pull the thread, you know, once we left his office and talked to the training cadre and talk figured more about the guy's reputation and talked to the guy himself. and he realized like two or three days later he fired him. And so big win for the E5 mafia. We're all fired up that we get this guy fired 59:31 and [sighs] we proceed and now we get our new assignment for our new platoon commander. We find out who our new platoon commander is going to be. And our new platoon commander is a legendary SEAL who I had never met him but I had heard his name. Everybody kind of heard his name. He had been he had been a prior enlisted senior chief. So he went up all the way to senior chief. He was at UDT. >> He was a plank owner at Damneck. He was at SDV. He was at a boat team. He was at Team One. He had done everything in his career. >> Everything you could possibly [ __ ] want as a in a leader. >> He had combat experience from Grenada. So everything that you could want as a leader, he comes in and and I'm thinking, everyone's like fired up and I go, "Hold on a second, guys. This is this is happening for a reason. This is cuz we're a bunch of mutineers that got our last boss fired and they're sending this guy down cuz he's going to 1:00:32 crush us and like get us in line." And so when he shows up, this guy um I'm expecting, you know, a 6'5, 270 lb beast. And this guy shows up and he's like 5 8 and maybe 150 lb. And he looks like he's about he's like the oldest guy I've ever seen in the SEAL teams, which was probably like, you know, 37 or something like that. [laughter] gray graying hair and all the whole nine yards. And he walked into our platoon space and I'm like, "Who is this freaking this guy's supposed to be the legend?" He walks into our platoon space and he says something along the lines of like, "Hey, I'm sorry to hear about your last platoon commander, but I'm not worried about it. I'm just looking forward to working with you guys." And right there, like the fact that he didn't come in and say, you know, I'm taking over. I'm in charge. There's a new sheriff in town. He said, "I'm looking forward to working with you 1:01:32 guys." And I realized, "Oh, this guy is different." And then that afternoon, he's taking out the garbage, you know, sweeping up the platoon space. He's taking out the garbage. I'm like, "Whoa. That's a new that's that's not just a new guy's job. That's like a new guy that's in trouble's job." And then a couple days later, we had our first training mission. And he put me and my running mate in charge of the mission, which was awesome and crazy, like from, you know, hey, here's the mission. You guys figure out how you want to do it. And he just put that that responsibility and gave us ownership. And so that guy, you know, when I was watching him and as I went through that platoon, he was just awesome and he made our lives awesome. And you know, when you're when your SEAL platoon is your life and your SEAL platoon is your religion and you have a guy like that take over and the contrast 1:02:36 between the guy that was arrogant and didn't listen to us and and held on to all the power himself. I learned so much from seeing that contrast between these two guys. And so as time went on, that's that guy left me with a lot of a lot of lessons. And one of the most one of the most important lessons that he taught me was we were we were working with the Marines. We like I said, we were in AR platoon. So we were ships off the coast of San Diego. We're doing like the Marine Corps workup with them. From the Marine Corps workup, they got to do beach landings. red beach up in uh Camp Pendleton. [snorts] And before the red before the beach landing goes down, seals back in the old days, we went out with a lead line and slate like World War II and did a hydrographic reconnaissance. And that is a gut check of an operation, especially in a big sea state, especially off Camp Pendleton in whatever month it was. It's cold, giant waves. We're in our, you know, zodiacs. 1:03:37 It's such a gut check of an operation. It takes five or six hours to do. You're freezing the whole time. And you take a, you know, a lead line and a slate. So you take a lead line and you dip it in the water and it's got little markings on it to show you how deep the water is. And then you have this slate on your arm where you're writing down how deep the water is. And you do this whole your whole platoon is doing it at the same time. [sighs] It's just a gut check. And we get done that night and then you have to take all the all the slates with all the information on them and you bring them back to the ship. And then the ctographers, which are the guys in the platoon that like take all that information, they build a chart to give to the Marine Corps. And we go through all that. And then that day, early morning, we then go out and mark the beach lanes. So we swim across the beach again, and we set up the beach lanes and we mark them for the Marines. And the Marines come in and land. And so now it's like 48 hours of continuous operations, freezing cold, gut check. [snorts] And we get done and get a few hours into the beach landing. and the Marine Corps 1:04:39 decides that they didn't like their landing. And so they said, "We, you know, we we missed our timeline. We didn't bring the vehicles in the right direction." Whatever the the problems they had, we're doing it again. We're reloading the ships and we're doing it again. Which is like mammoth and ballsy for the Marine Corps colonel to say like, "Hey, I didn't like it. We're doing it again. This is massive." So we reload on the ships and we start the whole thing again. and we go out to do the hydrographic reconnaissance and we're in our little boat pool, you know, we launch from the big ships, we go on the Zodiacs, we get to the point, it's been all night and we're getting ready to get in the water and we're in our little boat pool. And again, we just did this 48 hours ago and someone in the platoon, it wasn't me, thank God, someone in the platoon says, "Are we really going to do this again?" And the platoon commander just quietly says, he says, "Well, you 1:05:40 know, we don't have to, but would that be the right thing to do?" And not another word was said. We got in the water because you have to do the right thing. You're a frog man. You're a seal. You have to do the right thing. It's the hard choice right now. We just did it 48 hours ago. There's been no shift in the in the sand. There's been no obstacles put in. But this is what we do. And for me, that statement, is it the right thing to do? Stuck with me for the rest of my career. And this guy, you know, I remember getting towards the end of that platoon. And again, when your when your platoon is your life and somebody makes it that good. [snorts] And that was the first indic. 1:06:51 Someday, if I can, I want to make life good for 16 guys in a platoon. And that was the very first thought that I had of following his path. And that's what I did. That's what I eventually did. I followed his path. And I I did always did my best to emulate and you know would never be as good as him, but I always did my best to emulate his leadership. >> Do you think he knows this about you? >> Yes. >> Yep. >> Can I ask you what his name is? >> I I'd rather not say. >> Okay. Um, but he's he's uh well known in the SEAL teams. >> That's pretty cool. >> Yeah. He's he has no uh you know he's very low profile. Very low profile guy. >> That's even cooler. >> Yep. 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That was just instant. 1:11:00 And then that deployment, you know, again, we were on board a ship. We were actually we were actually uh staged off the coast of Africa when the Rwanda genocide was going on and we were like planning to go and getting our gear ready and of course we never went. This is where you know the the the face that you made earlier that I where you went like that's how that's the first time I felt that of like wait a second there's I think it ended up being 800,000 people slaughtered in 100 days >> but we were there we were off the coast and we didn't do anything. Why didn't we do anything? Well, what had just happened in Somalia a year prior was Blackhawk down. It was like yeah they were not willing to take that risk. We did the same thing. There was a couple missions we got spun up for in Somalia and had our gear loaded, had 40 mic Mike mic. I remember loading out 40 mic Mike mic for the first time for real and being like, "Oh yeah, we're going." And 1:12:01 we didn't go. So that was probably the first time that I felt that level of frustration of, you know, why why aren't they sending us? Like we can help. >> And that it's the way it was. You know, definitely a let down. >> How did that platoon end? That was it. You know, we went on deployment. I think we spent we spent some ridiculous amount of time because they call them gator squares, which is when you're just going around in a circle off the coast of we did gator squares off the coast of Rwanda or off the coast of uh not off the coast of Rwanda, but off the coast of um Kenya >> for several months and then we did gator squares off the coast of Somalia for another period of time. And then we went up into the Persian Gulf because at some point, I think it was this platoon, there was something going on like Saddam had pushed troops, moved troops or something going on. So we went up and and did gator squares in the Persian Gulf for a while. >> So I think we were at sea like 174 days out of 180 or something totally 1:13:01 insane like that. Yeah. Just >> riding that ship, lifting all day, shooting off the fan tail again. Did we have fun while we're doing it? Yeah, dude. We had a blast. We had a blast. I also in the couple of days that we were not on the ship, I met my wife. So, >> how did you meet your wife? >> We went into uh Bahrain for like some training and the boys, we went out and I I met uh I met my wife who was a stewardist at the time. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> How'd you make the approach? >> Um Oh, man. >> [laughter] >> So squad two had spent a couple day they went off the ship before us and squad one still had some whatever we were doing some some work to do and so when we flew into Bahrain cuz we flew to Bahrain and we didn't know what Bahrain was I mean a country but we didn't know 1:14:04 that Bahrain at the time was like the Las Vegas of the Persian Gulf meaning they had it was somewhat westernized. They had bars and stuff like this. And so when we when squad one when we landed in the helicopters, squad two is like running to help us move our bags and stuff, we're like, "What's going on?" And they're like, "There's girls here. There's ballers here." Like, so and one of my one of my buddies who was very uh a very shy type dude, he was in squad, too. And he tells me, "Yeah, you know, there's these girls here. There's these two girls. I've seen them each night and like I know you're going to go and you're going to go talk to them and like they haven't even given me the time of day." And I was like, "Bro, if there's girls, you know, I'm I'll leave them alone. They're they're yours. You handle it." And so we go to a we go to this bar. >> I know you're going to [laughter] talk to them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh [ __ ] I look across the bar and there's this like shockingly uh stunningly beautiful girl with blonde hair and uh like a white freaking 1:15:07 skintight gorgeous outfit on. And so I saw her I just walked over to her and um yeah, this is the embarrassing part is uh you know when you're on a ship back then there there wasn't internet and so we had a limited number of video cassettes. There's no DVDs, no streaming. And one of the movies that we had was Ace Venture, a Pet Detective. And so we had I had watched that movie at this point like hundreds of times. And uh I walked up to this beautiful blonde girl and and I said in like a Jim Carrey style, I said, "You must be Aphrodite's goddess of love." [laughter] And uh she she looked at me like I was an idiot and then laughed and you know we started talking. But that was the did I don't know whether it's more embarrassing that I said it to her or that she fell for it. [laughter] I'm sure she's pretty embarrassed that she fell for it. But yeah, so we ended up you know having a long-distance relationship and and um 1:16:08 but that's came home from that deployment and you know going another platoon >> right off the bat. >> Yeah. Yeah, you know, this was this was the '9s, you know, just go on deployment, go on deployment as much as you can and hope that something happens. And so so that's what I did. Just went back into another platoon. Did another Arc platoon. So right back into the Arc platoon and >> new leadership. >> Yep. Got a new platoon commander. Um got a new platoon chief, new platoon LPO, and all all good dudes, you know. This was just it was just good time. Team one was was a great team to grow up in for me. you know, they just had a other than that one officer, everyone else was was just good good people and everyone was just hardworking frog men, you know, it was good. >> Anything significant on deployment three? You know, the the only thing I can say was cool about that third deployment was that um we did some we did like a night of some I think we did one shipboarding like a real shipboarding 1:17:09 and I think we ran some security operations means and again this is how desperate we were. We locked and loaded our weapons and drove our ribs around like the boats the ship the navy ships and I was kind of fired up you know. >> Yeah. This is literally [laughter] >> to me it was it was real. We locked and loaded our weapons and then we did one shipboarding that was, you know, real. And again in in the '9s, I was freaking stoked that I got to lock and load my MP5 cuz we used MP5s back then. Nice. >> Yep. Got to lock and load my MP5 and >> and board a ship and get control of the vessel and turn it over to the authorities. And it ended up it wasn't even like a it was just some weird situation where they were making some kind of a distress call but people thought they might be you know it might be a hostage situation so or or some kind of not a hostage situ but some kind 1:18:09 some they didn't know what was happening. >> What kind of ship was it? >> Some random was a foreign ship. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just some random uh you know like a Maris or something. >> Smaller. It was a pretty It wasn't that big. that they're probably they're probably uh moving dates or whatever whatever kind of produce from one of the Arab countries was nothing was literally nothing. I'm I'm like bringing it up because it's funny that I was excited about it and that's kind of how naive and and into the teams I was, you know. >> Did you board it? >> Yeah. How'd it go? >> Cool. We took it over. You know what happened when you took it over? just walked up to >> be like, "H, we're not in distress." >> Yeah, we figured out that they weren't in distress, >> but we are now. >> Yeah, that we stressed them out. They were actually thankful. I think they had some kind of problems, you know, some kind of problems with their engine or something like that. So, we showed up and, you know, was is a non-opposed boarding, but, you know, we got to hook and climb on a, you know, we put our 1:19:10 little uh uh water ski ladder, like we had little water ski ladders. We just hooked it on and climbed up. It was cool. >> Right on. >> I was happy. happy to uh do something for real. You know, that's one thing. Uh the Coast Guard, the Coast Guard, one thing that's cool about the Coast Guard is no matter what's going on in the world, the Coast Guard is doing real stuff. You know, Coast Guard's always doing saving people. You know, the ocean is mean. >> Yeah. >> So, there's a war going on or not, if you're in the Coast Guard, you can still do some really impactful things. Of course, now they're doing all kinds of drug interdiction, too. >> Yeah. I love that. Have you seen that video that those guys that jump on that damn submarine and open it up? >> Oh, no. I haven't seen that. It's It's [ __ ] awesome. >> It's [ __ ] awesome. >> Yeah. >> But [clears throat] all right. So when do you when did you move over to two? >> So I got done with that platoon and I went into training cell at SEAL team one. When I was training cell team one again I'm still like single and I taught everything. You know we just would we do everything. Do land warfare taught diving comms CQC. We do we we just teach 1:20:12 everything cuz we just didn't we didn't have anything else to do. wasn't like, "Hey, what do you want to do this week when you're home?" No, I'll go to Nland or I'll go to wherever to go make stuff happen. So, I stayed in that mode. And then again, from my second platoon, I had there was a there was a officer program that was called the seaman to admiral program and it was started by a guy named Jim Borda, Admiral Borda, who if you know anything about him, um he killed himself. I didn't I don't know anything about him. >> So, this is again there's all these weird threads through people's lives, but one of the weird threads through my my life is that uh one of my biggest mentors and heroes is a guy named Colonel David Hackworth and Colonel David Hackworth was a wrote the book about face and he was a Korean War veteran and a Vietnam war veteran. He was one of the most decorated army soldiers. And he when he retired, he had retired because during the Vietnam War, he did 1:21:14 an interview where he said, "If we don't change the way we're fighting, we're going to lose." That's basically what he said. And he got drumed out of the army for saying that cuz he was a colonel. He was a senior officer. He was the first senior officer to speak out against the war and the way we were fighting it. And when he got out, he, you know, he he kind of he wrote books, but he was a little bit of a journalist and a little bit of a, you know, uh, yeah, kind of like a journalist. And he reported that Admiral Borda was wearing a V on his Navy commenation medal. So, a Navy comm with a V. And he said he didn't rate it because a V is an award for valor. And, you know, like that's a big deal. >> Mhm. Um, it doesn't stand for valor. It stands for comat combat distinguishing device, but it's a V. And that story came out and Admiral Borta killed himself. Um, but prior to that happening, Admiral 1:22:16 Borda had started a program called the Seaman Admiral program because Admiral Borda was a prior enlisted guy and so he wanted to offer that to other troops. So they started this program and it was 50 sailors from the US Navy would get selected and I heard about the program and actually one of my officers said hey they got this program coming out you should do it and I did it and I didn't get picked up but I got slated as an alternate which was no there were no alternate spots that opened up because everyone took it but I was an alternate so I knew I had a decent chance And um and that the guy actually sent a note back to my commanding officer that said, "Make sure this guy apply applies next year." And so I applied again the next year and I got picked up for that program. >> No [ __ ] >> I'm just curious. I mean, [clears throat] we a lot of us know, you know, where the story headed into Rammani, but you know, and maybe the knowledge wasn't there, but you know, I mean, now, you know, actually maybe it 1:23:17 was there cuz this was after your second platoon or during your second platoon. I mean, it's pretty common knowledge that, you know, officers, you join the SEALs to go to war. That's what you wanted to do. Now, leadership package is presented to you. You take it. Did you know, you know, that that you would have more time in a combat role as an enlisted guy than you would as an officer? If >> Yeah. At that juncture in my career, and the way the teams were, this is 1998. >> Mhm. it. You know, I had done three platoon, so I maybe had an LPO and a platoon chief left. >> So, I basically looked at it as, oh, instead of doing an LPM and a platoon chief, you're going to do an AYC and an OIC. >> Gotcha. >> And so, it wasn't really didn't really make that much of a difference to me. Um, you know, when guys ask me now like what what should you do or what, you know, if they say, "Hey, I want to go on the SEAL teams. What should I do?" I I 1:24:20 I mean my career couldn't have gone any better. Like >> it was great. But to your point, if you want to do the trade of being a SEAL, then you should enlist. >> Yep. Um that's just how >> Why did you decide to take a leadership role? It all just boiled back to uh working for that platoon commander that made life in a platoon awesome. And I I thought if I can make if I can make platoon awesome, if I can make life awesome for 16 guys in a platoon, I'm going to do it. And and yeah, that was it. That was it. >> The damn good reason. >> Yep. >> So when did you go? >> I went to officer candidate school in 1998. Yep. early 1998 I went to officer candidate school and you know that was you know you're pretty much we had we had a decent number of prior enlisted guys in my class but most most of them I'd say 70% of them were kids out of 1:25:22 college going to OCS and so you know I show up there I'm a SEAL and the drill instructors the Marine Corps drill instructors down at OCS and uh great great interaction with the Marine Corps drill instructors you know I became the class president, which seemed pretty obvious, I guess, but uh most of the class presidents are only class president for like three days in the first few weeks because they just they're just firing them. But I became class president and I just stayed. So I was a class president and then um went through OCS, you know, folding underwear literally with a ruler. They have a ruler. >> No [ __ ] Yep. >> Um, yeah. So, you know, graduated from OCS and then went to team 2. >> Did you learn anything significant in OCS? >> Uh, yeah, you know, I leadership leadership was a it was a cool leadership challenge going OCS and being the being the class president. you make things happen. And 1:26:25 um it was cool to work. You know, it's it's people are and this is another thing that, you know, I've learned along the way is like people aren't going to be perfect and they're going to make mistakes and I'm going to make mistakes and um as long as their intention isn't bad, then you know, I get it. And also you know to ask someone to perform like or behave in a way that they have to surmount their innate like habits as a human being. It's a lot to ask of someone. So when someone gets mad, when someone gets frustrated, when you see someone's ego come out, when you see someone look out for themselves, you I kind of understand that that's the way people are. And I'm I'm not going to be mad about it. I understand that people get, you know, there's there's 1:27:28 people do crazy things, man. People do crazy things. And I understand. And I think that going to OCS was one of those things I said, "Yep, there's kids were trying, but the kids were also doing things where you go, I see what he's doing, man. He's worried about this test and he's looking out for himself right now. And I get it. I get it." And I think just a little bit of um understanding other people's perspective. It was good for me to continue to be able to understand other people's perspective because if you don't understand other people's perspectives, you're going to be very judgmental. >> And if you're very judgmental, you're going to have a hard time interacting with other people. >> Mhm. >> And when you're in a leadership position and you're having a hard time interacting with other people, that's not going to be good. >> Why did you Why did you go to two? I'm just curious why you went east coast versus west coast when you could have >> Yeah. >> reintegrated back in with your old guys. 1:28:29 You know what I mean? >> At the time the officer community if you went from enlisted to officer they made you switch coasts. >> Gotcha. >> And I wanted to go to the east coast because I hadn't been out there. I'd spent all my time in the west coast and so and team two I came from team one. Team one was the traditional team on the [snorts] on the west coast and the east coast from my friends that I knew out there was the same way. Team two was the traditional team. It was the old school team, you know, and that's where I wanted to go. So, I got got to go to team two. >> How was it as an officer? I mean, how what is it like walking through those doors as a prior enlisted guy now as a as a as a junior officer? It was pretty pretty much this pretty much the same, you know. Um, [snorts] when I was an E5 or an E4, you know, I worked with, like I said, I was the uh primary comm's guy in my first platoon. I had a really good relationship with my platoon 1:29:29 commander, my second platoon, good relationship with my platoon commander, and then when he got fired, I had a good relationship with the guy that took over. So, and and I didn't [snorts] it seemed like good good guys, they would just treat you like, you know, like mutual, you know. So, I never really had a huge difference between the way I saw other people or the way, you know, I always just saw myself as another team guy. That's this is my job. You know, when I was a comm guy, my job was to make sure the radios were good. When I was an officer, it's like, okay, I got to make sure that the plan is good, make sure we have contingencies. like there was other things I was going to be in charge of, but I'm still just a part of the machine that's going to take care of this. And if one part of the machine fails, the whole machine fails. So, it was fine, you know, and you know, Team 2 was great. I had a a bunch of good guys there and and yeah, and and there was um like you hear about the differences between the East Coast and the West Coast and they were 1:30:29 team guys, you know, they were they were team guys that lived in Virginia as opposed to team guys that lived in in uh San Diego and bunch of great dudes. Mhm. >> And I ended up almost immediately deploying to Germany. My the chief of my second platoon was the master chief in Germany and they had been calling back for ops support. They wanted J they wanted a J to to go over to Germany to help with ops support. And he told me this later. They were in like a morning meeting and they said, "Yeah, we finally got op support coming from from the beach and they go, "Well, who is it?" And they go, "It's it's a it's an Enson Willink." And the ops officer is like, "What are you what are you talking about? They're sending us an enson like we need an ops guy." And he the master chief goes, "Hold on a second. What's that guy's name?" He goes, "Enen Willink." He goes, "We want this guy." And so so I showed up and 1:31:30 again there's my my old platoon chief who's who is like a great guy who had a great relationship with like awesome friend of mine. He's the command master chief. And so I show up and develop a great relationship with the commanding officer there and the executive officer there just and the the ops chief there became awesome friends and it's just great you know just great opportunities and work with these guys that are again man just dedicated to the teams you know just dedicated to the teams and I think that's the main thing is you know you get guys that the be the good guys their their commitment is to the teams and so when you got a bunch of guys they're committed to the teams and want to do a good job and that's so went over to Germany and we actually like did some little mini deployments from Germany um that were really cool and learned a lot and my the skipper was a great guy and he ended up you know becoming the officer detailer later which you know again >> it's beneficial 1:32:31 >> and the and the SEAL team 2 executive officer >> again developed a great relationship with him. Um, just a good guy that you know I was a hard worker and that he moved from group from unit 2. So I was with the exo in Germany and then he becomes the exo at team two. So like when I get back there I immediately get back put into a platoon. So I do a platoon at seal team 2 and a strike platoon off the aircraft carrier. >> Right on. >> Y right on. which was again working with a lot of assets and going over and doing VBSS over in the Persian Gulf which again at the time was a real thing. >> Did you get a lot of leadership experience as the is the opso in Germany or or was that kind of just you know getting you ready >> as far as leadership of troops? No. But understanding of the bigger picture. Yes. because the the guy that I work for there, again, he's a friend of mine and 1:33:34 just a great guy and he he had, you know, a lot of experience himself at the time, right? Not experience like guys have now, but at the time he had experience and like there was one time we were we're on a big exercise, a big joint exercise, and we we like put together a talk tactical operation center. What's interesting about this is, man, you think of a talk now, like you think of what a mobile talk would look like. Now, I'm not kidding. Well, I put together a mobile talk and I was the like the the ops officer for this operation, this training operation, and I had the talk in my backpack. It was like three radios, two maps, some magic markers, some pens. Like, that's what we rolled with and that's what we set up, you know? That's what we did. But there was a time where there's a platoon in the field and there there's multiple elements that are getting ready to do target hits and we're waiting for like a pro word from this platoon that's supposed to be set up and 1:34:34 and we're waiting and I go, "Sir, can I pimp them for this pro word?" And he's like, "Give them another minute." And I was like, "Roger that." And 45 seconds later, the guys passed the pro word. And it just reminded me that like those guys out in the field, you got to listen to what they're doing. you got to give them the benefit of the doubt and that's what my boss was telling me like hey those guys got they're not sitting in the talk right now they're not they they're making decisions so just good experience from that perspective and seeing you know the way the the sock worked was good so when did your I mean if this happened which would I think it would happen I mean when did you know [clears throat] as enlisting guys we always have a lot of gripes and [ __ ] and [ __ ] like that about you know the leadership and So, you know, kind of where I'm going with this is when did your mind kind of expand and realize, you know, what the O position is and okay, like there's a lot more to this than I ever gave it credit for as an enlisted guy. >> Yeah, that happened. 1:35:37 It happened on that deployment, right? And I think where I think what was good was I was bilingual, meaning I spoke two languages. Well, I mean, Mustangs, prior enlisted officers have [ __ ] tremendous amount of respect in the enlisted man's eyes. >> So, since I was bilingual and I could speak two languages and I had to learn the officer language, but I spoke I was fluent in EOG language. I mean, I was completely fluent. I was E dog mafia. You if you go talk to anybody that was at Seal Team 1 in between 1991 and 1998, I I was a made man in the in the SEAL team E5 mafia 100%. There's no one that would ever deny that. And so I spoke fluent E5 mafia language. And then as I started to learn the officer language, what I think I was able to do was translate what was happening with the officers to the EDOGs, which I think a lot of times gets missed to this day gets missed because it's it really is two different perspectives that are 1:36:37 happening. And there's a lot of things that happen at the officer level that don't ever get told to the EDOGs and that does create frustration and and angst amongst the troops because they don't understand what the hell is going on. And when that happens, man, they they get pissed. And I got pissed when I was, you know, when I was an EOG and we weren't being told what was happening, we're freaking pissed. You know, I I I tell this one story where we were on a ship. This is my third platoon. And we got told, "Hey, you guys are going to launch your Zodiacs off the ship." We go, "Cool." So, we drag all the stuff upstairs. It takes an hour and a half. Got to bring the fuel up, which means you got to you got to notify the fire party and they got to set up all their stuff so you can bring the fuel up to the top deck so you can launch the boats inside the ribs. And 2 or 3 hours into this, they're like, "Actually, you're going to launch off of the well deck." Oh, bring everything back downstairs. another two or three hours later they say, "Oh, you're going to use helicopters now. We got to break all." So, so we're getting whipped around the 1:37:37 whole time. And this is, by the way, someone just saying, "Oh, why don't they use the helicopters?" "Oh, okay, cool. I'll tell them." And they think it's just like this, but it's not. So, I always remembered what it was like. I also always remember, you know, I was in when I was in ST, SEAL Tactical Training, we had to walk in every position in the platoon. So sometimes you'd be point man, sometimes you'd be the PL, sometimes you'd be the radio man, sometimes you'd be a machine gunner. And I remember, luckily or unluckily for me, we did a long patrol and I was rear security. And I had no idea where we were. I had no idea where we were going. I had no idea where we were going to stop again. If we got contacted, I might as well have just like started running around like a chicken with my head cut off cuz I didn't know where the rally ports were. I didn't even know where the target was. And I hated that feeling. And I always said to myself, I am going to make sure that I keep the guys informed of what is happening. That is so important. It gets dropped all the time because you get focused on like, well, hold on. How much longer to the next? This is the platoon 1:38:37 commander talking. He's only talking to the point man. And so now when he stops talking to the rest of platoon, they lose track of what's happening and it's just a cluster. And so even as an enlisted guy, I realized that you have to make a concerted effort to explain to the guys what is happening. And if you fail to do that, they'll have no idea and you won't know that they don't know. And that's that's a disaster. So now when you move me up into this officer position, now I'm saying, "Oh yeah, I bet the platoon has no idea what why they're having the HILO move to this position or why they're being told they have to stand down from this operation or cuz they don't they don't get told, oh, the charge affairs in this country just said that we can't do it and here's the risk that they don't aren't willing to take." They just hear, "Hey, it's a can bird and they go, oh, so we just spent four hours doing this and now it's just nothing." but they don't understand why. And so it's incumbent upon the leadership to make sure that everyone in 1:39:38 the chain of command understands not just what we're doing, but why we're doing it and why these changes get h these changes happen. Because as you know, these changes happen all the time. They happen all the time. And so yes, I I think that one of the things that I had the capability of doing is I was bilingual. I talked E5 and eventually I learned how to how to speak officer as well. And I could also bring the problems at the E5 level to my boss and explain to them in a way that they could understand that, hey, when you tell my guys, we're not allowed to explosively breach anymore. Let me tell you what that means. And then they say, oh, okay. Well, I didn't understand that. Thank you. or when I get told, "Hey, you need to have this number of Iraqis with you, friendly Iraqi soldiers with you on every operation, I need to explain to my boss what that means on the ground." And if you have a 1:40:40 good relationship, which I always had a good relationship with my boss. So when I would I would explain something to my boss, my boss would listen to me. My boss would because also I wouldn't complain about stuff like I wasn't going to complain if I was going to my boss and telling them that something didn't make sense. they they would listen to me because I would only say it if it was true. And so I just developed that good amount of trust with my chain of command and and it wor it would work out well. So yes, as I got into that officer role, I started to see, oh, okay, I can understand why. Oh, if the troops would have known that it was the Commodore of the ARG that now wanted to use helicopters because it's something they have to get checked off the box before they're allowed to go on deployment. If the guys understood that, they'd be like, "Oh, yeah. Well, we got to get calls done, too, and this is the calls that they got to get. Cool. Let's make it happen." >> But a lot of times, you know, we we fail as leaders to let people know. And then when I got to in the platoon at SEAL 1:41:42 team 2, again, now we're on a strike aircraft. We got a lot of assets. We're we're with, you know, a carrier air group, which is a an awesome like projection of power, unbeatable projection of power, but we're a little cog in that machine. And helping the the platoon understand what we're doing, why we're doing it was beneficial. Why [snorts] do you think that the maybe they are doing it but they definitely weren't doing it when I was in not to I mean it seems like with what you just described prior enlist Mustangs prior enlisted going to officer I mean that's that could alleviate a lot of communication issues within the military what why do you think that they aren't if they aren't um motivating people enlisting guys to become officers. Why aren't they why aren't they giving more billets? I mean, this this seems like a it could be a key component to a 1:42:43 >> 250year communication issue. >> Yeah, it there are, you know, it's it's with prior enlisted officers, some of the best officers I ever worked for or worked with were prior enlisted officers. Some of the worst officers I worked with were prior enlisted officers. So, I I think it's more of an educational thing and more of an understanding that explaining to people that, hey, man, this this communication that goes up and down the chain of command is it needs to happen. It's a real thing. And when you're when your platoon is complaining about something, you should listen to what they have to say because they're doing it for a reason. Uh, and of course, if you're asking me if they should take more prior enlisted guys and make them in officers, absolutely. That's awesome. I wish they would do that all the time. It's a great move. >> Anything significant on the strike deployment or the the mark, excuse me. >> Uh, it was a strike deployment. It wasn't a mark, but it was, you know, it was cool. We did we did uh VBSS 1:43:43 overseas. Again, this was like when doing VBSS was as real as it gets. Get to lock and load your weapon and board a ship and get control of the ship. And it's uh as good as you could hope for. You know, we took down a big Russian ship which was a which was at the time it was like on CNN, you know, it was a >> Wait, what? >> We took down there was a Russian ship that was smuggling oil. And so we we we boarded that ship and got control of it, turned over to the authorities. So, you know, that was kind of a a cool op to do in the '9s. You know, in the '9s, some things that aren't that big of a deal seem pretty cool. What year? So, what year is this? >> [snorts] >> that that was a millennium deployment. So we were on we were deployed 99 to 2000. It was like the winter of 99 2000. >> Where were you when September 11th, 2001 happened? >> So I get home from that deployment and I have to go to college cuz I didn't have 1:44:44 any college. And again, this is why they changed that whole officer program that I did. I was a I was in E5 at SEAL team one. I went to 13 weeks of OCS, no college. And then I went to uh SEAL team 2 as an officer. So it was awesome. But [laughter] when I got done, they're like, "Yo, you you don't have any college. You have to go to college to be an officer." And I was like, "Oh, no. I don't need to go. I can go when I'm I'm already doing the job." >> And uh the officer detailer was like, "No, no, you have to go to college." So I went back to San Diego to go to college, University of San Diego. And I did that primarily because of jiu-jitsu. I knew I was going to be I knew I was going to be having some time during this three years of going to college. So, I went back out to San Diego so I get my own training get with my old training partners and stuff. And then so I got back out there in 2000 and I'm in the middle of college when uh September 11th happens. And when September 11th happened, my commanding officer or the commanding 1:45:46 officer of unit 2, who I was deployed with as an ops O, not the ops O, but as an ops JO, he was the detailer and I was friends with him and I called him and I said, "Can you please get me back to a SEAL team right now?" And he said, "Jo, this war is going to last a long time. finish college. And I said, "Sir, I can finish when I I can do online, like whatever." And he goes, "Finish college. This war is going to last a long time." And I didn't believe him at all. Uh but he was right. And and I always want to make sure I make this point. He told me later that everybody called him. Everybody that wasn't at a team, everyone called him. I was just one of the other guys that called him. It wasn't like I was extra motivated. I was just as motivated as everybody wanted to get back to a team. Mhm. >> And so he sent me when I finished college 2003 again like awesome. He sent me to Seal 1:46:46 Team 7. Seal Team 7 was like the next deploying team. I got to Seal Team 7 and my old exo from Seal Team 2 was the commanding officer and he welcomed me aboard and then a week or two later he fired a platoon commander and put me in charge. >> Oh [ __ ] And so and we were slated to go to Iraq and we left I don't know a few months later. Yeah. Actually probably quite a few months later cuz I graduated in like June, July, showed up at the team and we went on deployment in September. So that's um you know good relationships with people work hard and and you know he had a platoon commander that wasn't doing a good job so he put me in there. Um >> this was in 2003. >> 2003 eternally grateful. Yep. >> So were you on the invasion? >> No. So Seal Team 1:47:47 >> three. >> Seal team three did the invasion. Seal Team Five had kind of established Baghdad and then I went in and relieved them. >> How was it? >> It was the best thing ever. It was awesome. I mean, and there was a >> So, you've done you've done basically five deployments. >> Yeah. So, this was my Yeah. So, this was my fifth deployment. No, my No, this was my sixth deployment. >> Sixth deployment? >> Yes, this was my sixth deployment. >> Yep. >> I mean, dude, what's it feel? I mean, five [ __ ] deployments of I mean, you did some stuff, but now you're >> Yeah. Yeah. >> 9/11 happens, we've invaded Iraq, and you're in [ __ ] Baghdad. I think you're in Baghdad. >> Yes, I'm in Baghdad, and I'm in heaven. >> Yeah. I was totally stoked. Um, and for so there was actually like there was I had a sister platoon at SEAL team seven 1:48:50 and they went to Baghdad and then we replaced them in like or we kind of like it was weird. We kind of replaced them within weeks like a we started augmenting them and then kind of replaced them and after a little while like after a month or so we were the only platoon in we were the only SEAL platoon in Iraq. Holy >> for for a short period of time. >> And and so, you know, we were we were just doing, you know, what the team five guys had had established and then my sister platoon at Seal Team 7 had kept up the pace. And um it was just, you know, Baghdad SWAT is pretty much what it was. It was get intel from various sources, find out where a enemy was located, and then go get them. And we we had a lot of targets and we got to do a ton of it. And it was it was like what it was what we all joined the teams to do, you know. So it was awesome. 1:49:51 >> Do you remember your first operation where you had an engagement? >> Yeah. Actually the first oper the first time I left the wire in Baghdad my the the troop sea was a friend of mine. like we were E5 mobsters at team one and he had been there for like a month and so we show up and he goes there was like a mortar attack or something and he was like hey go take your platoon and go like check these roads in this place and and we went out you know we went out the wire and like checked these roads and drove to here drove to there and then we came back and uh he was like you good I was like, "Yeah, yeah." He was like, "That was just kind of a shakeout." And I was like, "Good call, dude." You know, like it was him saying, "Hey, like there's nothing there's nothing going to happen. We're going to we're not sending you on a wild goose chase, but you know, go to these 1:50:51 couple points and check them for whatever." So, it was just a good breakin of, you know, getting the guys getting the platoon, getting the vehicles loaded up. Went out, drove around outside the wire. That was kind of the first time leaving the wire with my nods on. Um, the first time we got shot at, I was in a Humvey and I'm looking at the Humvey in front of me and I'm like, I see like sparks and I'm like, why why why is someone smoking? Like, why is someone flicking their throwing their cigarettes out of the vehicle? And I'm like, oh, those are bullets, aren't they? And sure sure enough uh one of the guys um one of the guys got caught like a ricochet in the head totally good to go. It like entered his went through his skin and then like kind of wrapped around his skull and >> um but he was fine. You know we we still took him to Charlie Med, but and then you know we that was kind of that was kind of like the first time and we got you know 1:51:54 that that deployment was relatively chill. Um, I mean, what's that feel like though? I mean, five deployments, you join to go to war when you're 18, don't see any. Now you're in charge of your platoon straight after college, after 9/11, and you're [ __ ] leading a platoon into battle in Iraq. I mean, that's [ __ ] Is did it even hit you? Was it surreal at the time, or are you just so in it? You're like, "All right, this is the deal. Let's go." >> I knew like I I knew I think I'm very lucky cuz I was older, you know? I think I was what, 33, 32 or something like that point. So, I knew how rare this was. I thought the war was going to be over in a couple months. Like, I was very, very grateful for everything that we got to do. And I knew that every night. every night I was, you know, like playing the Super Bowl game every night, 1:52:55 you know, like that's what I felt like. I was very grateful the whole time. And and I had a great bunch of guys, great bunch of guys like that were just hard charging and just it was awesome. It was it was great. And we we did a lot of direct action missions, you know, and so we did a we we kind of got close a couple times to the idea of sniper overwatching. We did it a couple times, but it kind of left an imprint of my mind of what capability we had. Uh but we were primarily just a DA force and we would just roll out and hit targets. And [snorts] I mean it's yeah I I don't know if there's anything else I can say to make it for me to explain how happy I was but that to me was just the most awesome thing. What about the pressure? I mean, I I've always thought about, you know, I 1:53:55 mean, I I mean, I always felt a lot of pressure just going out the door, you know, do the right thing, you know, but I mean, what is the pressure like and and you don't really have any other reference cuz you hadn't gone on any kinetic operations until this point, but I mean, what is the pressure like as an officer leading 16, 20 guys into battle at the beginning of a war? Yeah. where there's not a lot of lessons learned, there's not a lot of new tactics developed yet. >> Yeah. The pressure I felt was just wanting to do a good job, >> you know, not wanting to do anything, not not wanting to [snorts] I wouldn't say not make any mistakes because I was not a risk averse person, you know, like I recognized that if you roll out on an operation, things can go wrong and I understood that and I understood that risk. So, but but yeah, you know, you you worried about guys getting wounded, you worried about guys getting killed. Um, a little bit of a very distant idea to me, 1:54:56 guys getting wounded or killed. It could happen, I thought. But it was, man, this is early in the war. The IED threat was relatively small. We would drive very aggressively at night on nods. We got ambushed a few times, but it would like no factor. RPGs going over the, you know, lucky RPGs going over the convoy, you know, machine gun fire going between vehicles. Like we we we got we got lucky. God's a frog man, but it was still a little bit distant to me that someone could get wounded or killed. It was there but not we we really dominated the battle space like coalition forces dominated the battle space >> and so I didn't have that much of that kind of pressure in my in my head. What about the pressure of you winning your your men over winning their trust winning 1:55:57 >> Yeah. I mean, you want to be the [ __ ] leader that everybody wants to follow into battle. You know, that that stuff, I would imagine, has to be going through your head. Am I making the right calls? How do my men I mean, we talked about perception earlier, and that a conversation I want to bring up, >> you know, more towards the end, but you know, I mean, are are you worried about the the guys perception of how you're leading? >> These guys are my bros and these guys are my friends. And when I took over that platoon, we were the first like the first maybe the first or second thing we did was an nighttime OTB in San Diego pilot recovery training operation. So I had done three shipboard deployments, man. I know how to do over the beach. And we go over the beach and one of our boats like capsizes or die or the motor dies. I forget which. I think it's just the motor died. And we're we get the 1:56:58 pilot and we come back and now we got a down boat. And um the guys who when I took over the platoon, some of the guys were kind of friends with the old officer and so there was a little bit of that and some of the guys didn't like the old officer and so there was a little bit of a friction, right? And I So this boat's down and the guys like we're in a perimeter and the guy's like, "Dude, we got to call admin. We got to call the trucks down here and get this boat towed back." And I was like, "We're not doing that." And they're like, "What are we going to do?" And I go, "This is what we're doing." And I gave him the plan and I to I put on my fins and and took the boat and I was like, "Hey guys, I'm going to you guys are going to paddle this boat." They're like, they're looking at me like I'm crazy like paddling a boat through the surf like this is Buds and I said, "We're going and as soon as we get like deep enough, we'll set up a tow line." And we did have a good toe long tow line. And I I remember I put beanered my weapon into the boat and I got in the water and I'm 1:58:01 keeping the bow into the wave so we don't flip over. And then we get the other boat comes in. I get those lines secured and then they start towing us out and then the guys drag me back into the boat. But like one of the guys in that platoon was like after you did that that night like we were doing anything for you because because I kind of they had kind of said like oh we got to call admin. And I was like, "No, we're not calling that. We're going to make this happen." But there was all kinds of stuff like that. Like, you need to step up and do the do the right thing. And yeah, these guys are my friends. You know why these guys listen to me? Cuz I listened to them. You know why these guys treated me with respect? Cuz I treated them with respect. You know why they trusted me? Cuz I trusted them. And And when you That's what you do. That's that's how it is. And that was the attitude that I had. I wasn't really concerned about that. These guys were my guys and I trusted them. They trusted me. >> And you didn't know any of them prior to you coming into that platoon? >> I knew the platoon chief. Yep. The platoon chief was another, you know, team one E5 mafia guy from from back in 1:59:03 the day. So, it was great. It was great to have that instant connection. But I don't believe I knew one single other person in that platoon because I'd been out on the East Coast and then I've been in college. So, I don't think I knew once. The sister platoon. The My sister platoon. My old running mate. The guy that told me, "Hey, you're not the only one that lost Grizz." He was the LPO in my sister platoon. >> No [ __ ] >> And I got to do some ops with him. >> Nice. >> Which was as good as it gets. >> Nice. What would What would you say your most memorable experience of that deployment is? Uh there was there was a few things that happened where you you like uh there was the CPA in Najaf was being overrun and we needed they needed QRF. Najaf is five hours away by Humvey and they need a QRF and they called us and I'm like hey 2:00:06 there's like three other units between us and Naf like why and the they're like I don't know but you guys are going and uh I remember my my the sea of that troop who like I said was the guy that was like hey go on this mission which was kind of for no reason he was a he's a great friend of mine to this day But I came out of like the talk and I was like, "Hey guys, load up all the rockets. Load up all the ammunition you can fit in the trucks. This is what's happening. We're going to QRF. We're going into Joff. CPA's been overrun." And we 20 minutes later, we're jocked up. And that [laughter and clears throat] guy that guy hugged me and I was like, "Hm, this is interesting." And because he was he usually went with us, but he wasn't going with us. And so he like hugged me and I was like, "Hm. Interesting. Long story. No big deal. We got the Naf the the QR. They didn't need a QRF. The I think I want to say Blackwater actually came in with their 2:01:06 Hilo. >> Is that what that I was wondering if that's what that >> was? It was um so we went down there, we spent the night, didn't do anything, and then drove back. But, you know, I remember thinking, hm, that's that's interesting. I'm getting this hug from my bro. We ended up doing towards the end of the deployment there was a u there was a one of solder's mktado Assolder was the leader of the Shiites in Iraq and we coalition forces had been targeting him for months our whole deployment he was being targeted but they didn't want to hit him because they didn't know what the reaction would be and so just before we were going home we We got tasked with hitting one of his top lieutenants and was a big operation, lot of uh visibility on it and we went down and that was also I want to say that was in the Yeah, that was in the Joff. We went down, we captured this guy and 2:02:07 when we came back it was kind of once it got out it was kind of the beginning or one of the triggering points of the true insurgency in Iraq. Like I woke up that morning and there was like you could looked out on the from our base and you could see like fires from the highways. Vehicles were being IDed and stuff and it was it was the beginning of the real formation of the insurgency which I wasn't really quite 100% sure on but you could see something was changed. Something just changed and you could feel it and I don't think America was ready for that. We weren't, you know, we had already made all kinds of mistakes, you know, standing down the bath the bath soldiers and the the army, sanding down the Iraqi army, like all we made all kinds of mistakes out of arrogance as a country. Um, but I don't really don't think that we saw like, oh, damn, this is about to get really, really bad. And that was in the spring of 2004. And 2:03:08 that is truly when things started to spiral. >> Yep. Yep. Well, Jaco, I know it's getting ready to get heavy with Tasky and Bruiser. Um, let's just take a quick break. When we come back, we'll pick up right here. >> Let's do it, man. >> We track sleep, fine-tune our macros, and try to chase every bio hack. 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So, subscribe to the Vigilance Elite newsletter right now. All right, Jaco, we're back from the break. It's about to get real heavy here, but um this is where you go to Seal Team 3, take task unit bruiser is the task unit commander, correct? >> Not quite. >> Not quite. because as I'm finishing my deployment my with shield team 7 2:06:10 um my commanding officer again who is my ops officer in unit 2 my executive officer at SEAL team 2 now he's my commanding officer and he says the last thing I do as a commanding officer is I'm going to make sure that you become the Admiral's aid. [clears throat and cough] No one wants to be the Admiral's aid, of course, because uh you know, it's an administrative job, but there's a reason why he wanted me to go be the admiral's aid. And it is because at that point in time, at that moment, I was going to come straight off the battlefield. You know, this is 2003, 2004. There hadn't been that many platoon gone over there. I'm going to go straight off the battlefield and work directly for the admiral. And that's what they want. They want somebody that has fresh combat experience that can tell him what is happening. 2:07:14 And I, you know, I did all kinds of excuses and tap dancing to try and get out of it, but uh it was it was happening. So, and and you know, it's part of it is it's very it's outstanding professional development because you're going to see things that you would not see without doing it. So, I that's what I get. I get home uh from deployment and I check in to be the admiral's aid and yeah it was uh it was definitely a wakeup call because you know we always we had a thing was if you know avoid wearing a uniform at all costs if you have to wear it make it perfect right that was kind of like a thing at SEAL team one and I was really good at avoiding wearing a uniform like I like to wear a shirt at work, you know, as little as possible. And 2:08:15 the first trip I went on with the admiral, I think I had four uniforms with me, like khakis for the Pentagon, camies for Fort Bragg, dress blues for a ceremony, and civilian clothes. That's like one trip. >> Damn. So I check in to be the admiral and you know it was definitely an eye openener of what's happening in the community and what's going on and what's happening at that that level [snorts] and it was yeah a massive learning experience and again you know I had the E E5 mafia language down now I learned the officer language and now was learning I don't know what to call the next level up of officer language but it's like >> flag officer language >> flag officer language >> because for that year I was in the 2:09:17 Pentagon I was you know and you'd be it's weird when you're an aid it's kind of like you don't exist but you do and I don't mean that in a bad way my boss was a great guy he was you know just a great guy nice guy cared about me a lot but like when you're in a room with a four-star general like the aids are kind of these subhumans in the back, but you're listening to everything. You're seeing everything. And so it was a very educational experience as to what's happening at those levels. You know, you're going to meetings at the Pentagon, um JC, like just really educational, a >> lot of inside baseball going on. >> Yeah. And you know, for for us and the SEAL teams, we don't realize often how much visibility we have, especially back then. Look, and I guess now it's pretty obvious we have a lot of visibility, but back then, you know, you wouldn't think that a E5 in a SEAL platoon doing 2:10:19 something dumb on Liberty would get a phone call to the admiral >> from the vice CNO or the CNO or the SECNAV. Like these things are a big deal. And so that's what I learned. I learned the amount of scrutiny that we're under. Um the SEAL team five guys, they had a someone in that platoon uploaded digital pictures of their deployment to a website that was supposed to be secure that got breached. And so these pictures went out over the internet and the pictures. So, I'm there when the CNO is calling the admiral to ask him about each of these individual pictures. What is going on in these pictures? And implied in that was like, 2:11:20 what is wrong with your troops? Example, there's a image of a guy, an Iraqi guy. He's being held by the jaw and he's got a a pistol to his head with a flashlight in his eyes and see like what is going on in this picture and the admiral like hits the mute button and I'm like sir they don't like to have their picture taken so you got to face their picture to the camera. You got to face their face into the camera and the light is so that you can illuminate the camera. You can illuminate the picture. That's why the closest flashlight you got is in is his pistol. That's what he's doing. Boom. Admiral tells him what's going on. [ __ ] >> Next picture. Um, a guy with a sandbag over his head, cuffed, blood coming out of the sandbag. What's going on with this picture? Hey sir, that guy resisted. He got subdued. 2:12:20 He probably could have been shot, but our troops are disciplined. And instead of shooting him, they captured him. They had to subdue him. they used uh minimum force required and now they've got him handled and now they take a picture of it. So like these little things where I realized that's the level of scrutiny we're under. And that's why again when I became a troop commander being able to translate and explain to the guys what is going on and what the visibility is and how much it matters what you do as a E4 as a E5 in a SEAL platoon. has a strategic impact for the nation in some cases and that was really clear with like Abu Grae but also for the SEAL community and [snorts] if we are not professional we don't get work and that's not I'm not saying that um for the benefit 2:13:21 of the SEAL teams I'm saying that for the benefit of the country because SEALs are good at what we do And if we're not getting jobs that we should be getting because of these kind of ancillary actions, it's bad for the country. It's bad for our war fighting capabilities. So, I learned a lot about that when I was when I was the admiral's aid. And, you know, there's another there's another couple huge cases. There was um there was, you know, I got to hear about what was happening from a legal perspective. Like there was some guys that shot someone. This wasn't SEALs. This was army guys. Regular army guys, conventional army guys shot someone in south of Baghdad somewhere. And I don't quote me on the story, but they had planted a gun on him. And they they they were going to jail. Like they were un under trial for murder. And I just would hear that and go, 2:14:22 "What? What were these guys thinking?" You know, why why would they be doing this? And the immediate answer is, well, because they're afraid they're going to get in trouble, right? Oh, they're afraid that the ROE didn't allow them to shoot this guy and now they're trying to cover it up. The reality of this scenario is the ROE. If someone is uh there I'm trying to think of the exact terminology, reasonable certainty that they're committing hostile intent, not a hostile act, hostile intent. So if I think you're going to do something and I'm reasonably certain of that, I can shoot you whether you have a gun or not. >> Mhm. And yet we have guys, this this particular case, these guys were getting in trouble because they planted a gun. They didn't need to do that. So that was like another just learning about how much scrutiny the military. So like I initially saw like oh there's the the the SEAL teams is under scrutiny, but then I realized it's 2:15:22 not just the SEAL teams. There's a lot of scrutiny on everything that we do. and the Abu Garb scandal that caused so many people that that fueled the insurgency so much and I saw that it fueled the insurgency. So what a couple, you know, 18, 19, 20 year old privates were doing in a prison fueled the insurgency and the the al-Qaeda took advantage of it. They propagated those pictures. They propagated those pictures from Team Five. Like that's what happens. And so I guess I realized how the tactical actions of our units, SEAL teams, marines, army soldiers has a strategic impact and we have to think about what we're doing. That is something I never thought of. Where does the scrutiny come from? >> I mean, it's the law of armed conflict, right? It's like the the Geneva con convention, the law of armed conflict. 2:16:22 There are people that are in place to make sure that we are conducting war in a forthright and just manner if there is such a thing. You know, can we go back to the quote from uh from Apocalypse Now, like you know, handing out charges for murder around here is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis 500. You can take that approach, but it's not going to help you. >> Mhm. >> It's not going to help you. you there's there's rules and we have just got to follow the rules and if the rules don't make sense then you got to raise your hand and say hey these rules don't make sense and I did that for instance and I brought this up earlier breaching so when I first got to Iraq that first deployment we're breaching every door of course right [snorts] well so is everybody else everyone's just breaching the hell out of everything you're going to enter a building you breach the door because it gives you a tactical advantage >> [snorts] >> So guys, civilians were getting injured by breaches. And eventually they said, 2:17:23 "Hey, no more breaching. No more explosive breaching. It's done." So I get this word and you know, I talk to my guys. No more explosive breaching. And you know what's their reaction going to be? >> Not good. >> Totally not good. Right. Hey, and and it's exactly what it's exactly what you would think it would be. Hey, wait a second. You want us to be at more risk. You don't care about us. You don't understand what it's like down here. This is a problem. You You don't You don't understand the battlefield. Screw you. That's basically the response. So, and I'm thinking the same thing, right? But now am I thinking, "Wait a second. Does my boss want to put my guys at risk? What do you think?" Really? Does my boss want No. No. Actually, no. I don't believe my boss wants to do that. There's got to be something else going on. Hey boss, what's the deal with explosive breaching? Why are we being told we're not allow Why are you telling me we can't explosively breach anymore? And he's like, here's what's happening. Here's the amount of casualties from 2:18:23 breaches. Here's the civilians injured by breaches. Here's, you know, the number of breaches that are happening every night in Baghdad or the surrounding areas. And the civilian casualties are so high that the generals are saying, "Don't do this anymore." And I said, "Okay." [snorts] Now, boss, if I'm going on to a target where the intel represents a higher probability of there being some kind of resistance on the target, can I breach? And he's like, well, what do you mean? I said, well, if I get this intel that says that they're expecting the them to have bodyguards or they expect there to be IEDs, can I use breach explosive breaches to mitigate that risk? And he's like, yeah, that makes sense. And that's what we did. And that's also when we started doing call outs, which initially guys were >> guys were doing call outs. >> Yeah. >> All the way back then. >> Yep. We started doing them. >> Holy [ __ ] I did not >> started doing call outs and it was like we were figuring out how to do it. Okay. 2:19:24 What are we going to do? Because from my perspective now, all right, so I'm not going to explosively breach this door. So, we're not going to really have the element of surprise that we want because we're going to be sitting there with a sledgehammer or what even a lockpick is or you know, anything's going to make noise. We're going to alert them that we're there. So now we got guys in the stack or waiting outside this building. They're not behind cover. This is a problem. How can we mitigate that risk? Well, since we have to wake them up to breach the door anyways with a freaking sledgehammer, let's just get a little safe distance, set up our vehicles, and wake them up and say, "Hey, you got to come out." And that's exactly what we started doing. And then so what we ended up with was a good variety of tactics of sometimes we do a call out, sometimes we just mechanically breach the door, and sometimes we explosively breach the door. But all those things were a result of me talking to my boss and then talking to the guys and saying, "Guys, here's why we can't breach. This is bullshit." Oh, okay. Well, we can't. Oh, there's a hu super high 2:20:26 risk. Explain that risk to me. And they explained to me, "Yeah, you know what? I agree with you guys, boss. We're going to explosively breach tonight. Boss says cool. My boss never told me no. Um, so those kind of things I think again where we get into the, hey, do just do what I'm telling you to do both up and down the chain of command. I don't want my I want my guys to resist me. I want them to say we should be able to explosively breach. Okay, tell me why. And I should be able to look at my boss. Here's why. And by the way, if my guys explain to me, hey, [snorts] we should explosively breach and here's why. And I explain it to my boss and my boss says, "No." Okay, do I have an argument? No. Okay. Well, then how can I mitigate this? Well, I can mitigate it by not stacking my platoon up in front of the door or outside the building and doing a doing a call out. So those kind of things I think get lost when it comes to communicating up and down the chain of command. 2:21:27 >> I got a question for you. I mean earlier when we were talking I can't remember at what point we brought this up but we were talking about leadership. I believe you you you had just gotten through OCS. Anyways you had said that trust your guys and that's how they trust you, right? And so big proponent of that. How do you just trust your guys? I mean, do they have to earn your trust or do you give them the trust and let them [ __ ] that up? Yep. >> Or give them the opportunity to [ __ ] that up. I'm asking because for my own I'm learning. Y >> I want to learn from you. >> The way you do it is a little bit of trust at a time. So if you started working for me, I wouldn't be like, "Hey Sean, we got this op tonight. Why don't you take lead on that? I'm going to sit in the talk. >> Mhm. I've never [clears throat] worked with you before and I'm just going to let you go take lead on a mission. No, it's like, "Hey, Sean, we got this op tonight. Can you run external security for me?" Or, "Can you clear this back, 2:22:28 you know, out house with your fire team?" And you're like, "Cool, got it, boss." And you do it, you do it well. And then the next time, hey, you're in charge of external security. And the next time, hey, you're in charge of vehicles. The next time, hey, you're in charge of the breach team. So, it's like, I'm going to give you a little more trust each time. And then you keep making good calls. Maybe sometimes I have to tighten you up like, "Hey, what were you doing going to clear this other building that wasn't part of the target?" "Yeah, but I saw a guy over there." But I I don't care about that, but you didn't tell me. Yeah, but I didn't have time. Well, what if we have a blue on blue cuz this Oh, good point. >> Mhm. >> So, you know, you learned a little bit. I took a little bit of risk, maybe a little bit of a little outside the zone. So, that's what you do. Just a little bit of trust at a time. You build it build it over time. But I have to trust you. And actually what's funny is I thought where you were going with that question is if my guys are telling me like we need to explosively breach this target. Do I have to trust them? And the answer is yeah. 2:23:21 >> Well, I mean then you get a guy like me that works for you and we have to explosive breach every single [ __ ] time. How do you trust me? >> Yep. And then I go, "Hey, hey [clears throat] Sean, if we do another one of these explosively explosive breaches, we're probably not going to get approved for our next missions." >> And you go, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, they've had a bunch of collateral damage. They've had a bunch of people in the in the Baghdad General Hospital that are wounded civilians from breaching charges, and we're just going to get told no. So, now what are you going to do? I'm tell I trust you, but do you trust me?" >> Mhm. >> And Okay. Well, that makes sense, Joo. Okay. Can we mitigate it? How can we mitigate it? Well, we could do a call out. We could throw flash crashes through the windows. Like there's a bunch of ways we could figure out ways to mitigate things, but if I don't talk to you and you don't talk to me and I don't explain to you what's happening, how can we expect to be aligned? It's just not going to happen. And so that that open-mindedness and having good relationships with 2:24:21 people is what it's all about. And by the way, this extends to like the other units that you work with, right? The other military, Army, and Marine Corps units that you work with. You got to listen to what they're saying about their AO cuz that's going to have an impact as well. >> Makes sense. Makes sense. >> And I can't believe you guys were doing call outs back then. >> Mhm. >> How would you do it? >> Uh set the vehicles in a either usually an L type scenario, you know, so we'd be able to see the the black side of the building, but we wouldn't set ourselves up in an envelopment and we'd get on the radio and say, "Hey, you're surrounded." You know, our turp would do it. Hey, you're surrounded. Come out. >> How would that work? Would they come out >> usually? Yeah. >> No [ __ ] >> Occasionally there would be no one there. >> What was the ultimatum? >> Uh, I don't know if we ever even reached an ultimatum. I think we had a couple where there was no one home and we eventually 2:25:23 breached, which again, which is good escalation, right? I guess depending on how you look at it, but if they wouldn't come out and now when we explosively breach this thing, we'd we'd explosively breach it like big. [laughter] [clears throat] >> So there were some very valuable lessons in the Admiral's aid slot. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, even that first deployment to Iraq, these kind of conversations, you know, these kind of things, understanding what my boss was having to deal with. Do you do you feel I mean it sounds like he it sounds like he had a great relationship with him but it want to ask is how is it I've always expected my leadership to have more experience than myself and so you're showing up 2:26:24 at a slot to be the aid for the admiral with more combat experience than the admiral has. That's an assumption. Maybe he was a Vietnam guy. I don't know. >> No, it's a correct assumption. >> I mean, how how >> by the way, my commanding officer, remember I said I was the only platoon in in Iraq >> Mhm. >> for like a month or two? >> Mhm. >> When my skipper showed up, he was no combat experience. >> Mhm. >> And you remember what I was saying earlier about like I understand. >> Mhm. You know, like I don't expect my boss who's never been in combat before to be able to roll in and start telling me what's what. And I understand he's going to ask me some questions about some things that he doesn't understand cuz he doesn't understand. And that's okay. >> Mhm. >> Like, oh, sir, let me explain to you. Why don't you come on an op and you can see what this looks like. Like that kind of attitude as opposed to which is really easy from a judgmental perspective to say, "Why the hell are you in charge?" Mhm. >> Or, hey, I'm trying to run operations 2:27:25 down here and you're asking me a bunch of questions. It's like, no, actually, come on down. Let sit through our brief. Tell me what you think. >> Yeah. I guess that's what I'm I mean, I've had both leaders, too. And I think I always paid a lot of attention to how how my leadership approaches me with with with with certain issues and are they open to are they open? That's really it. are I mean when you have a leader that comes in with a with a little to no experience I mean that it's it's once again how are they going to project that? Are they going to project that and lean on us or are they going to are they going to [ __ ] hide from their inexperience and and you know what I'm getting at? And and and and present like an overinflated overinflated [ __ ] confidence. >> Yeah. And what so how do you deal with that? It's like, hey boss, that sounds like a good suggestion. Let me let me bring out the boys and see how see how 2:28:25 we can make that work. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's like what am I supposed to say? Boss, you haven't been here as long as I have. You don't know what you're talking about. Where's that going to get me? >> Yeah. >> So, it's like, hey boss, sounds like a good suggestion. Let me get with the guys and let's figure out how we can implement that. Hey boss, I was talking to the guys and I just want to go over a couple things. just couple secondary and tertiary effects are going to happen if we do what it is you were saying. It's going to cause this and it's going to cause that. I'm good. We got to mitigate this one, but I just want to let you know that's what's going to happen. I didn't know that. How do you recommend? Oh, here's what I recommend, boss. You see what I'm saying? So, again, if I don't listen to him, he's not going to listen to me. If he if I don't put some trust in him, he's not going to trust me. >> Makes sense. Makes sense. So, how does tasking a bruiser come about? >> So, um yeah, I do that year at the admiral's office and then the next the next billet is uh to be a task unit 2:29:26 commander and a billet opened up at SEAL team 3 and so SEAL team 3 here I come. >> Can you explain what a task unit is to the audience? >> Task unit is the old name now it's called a troop but it's the old name for two platoon combined together with a little headquarters element above it. So, it's about it's about 36 guys, but it really can be anywhere between 30 and 50 or 70, you know, it's it's it's I think people are always surprised that the variables inside the military like a infantry company can be 80 guys or can be 280 guys. You know, there's a big variation, but generally speaking, a task unit is two platoon or a troop is two platoon with between 16 and 20 guys in each platoon. >> And so you you are tasked with with leading the task unit. Yep. >> Two platoon. Man, I just had so many friends slash, you know, Buds classmates 2:30:27 that were in that. I mean, Kawi, Mark Lee, Leif Babin, Seth Stone, I think. I don't want to mention his name. He might still be in there. Uh, Andrew Paul, a [ __ ] ton of them, man. I think uh Melendez, maybe. Was Mario Melendez with you guys? But, um, [clears throat] yeah, a lot of these guys plus a lot more enlisted, but I don't want to say all their names cuz I don't know who's in and who's not anymore. But um but and this is where man you is you guys just have all positive things to say about you. I've never heard anything negative about you from anybody that you've served with and that is >> that is [ __ ] incredible. >> Yeah. I work with some awesome guys, man. For sure. >> And you guys seem really tight and that is cool to see too. >> Yeah, it uh great crew of guys, man. Great crew of guys. for sure. >> I mean, it's almost like you took your 2:31:27 task unit with you into your business career. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> there's a lot of those guys that we got, >> you know, that are in there. But, >> but um I don't know where to start with this, so I'll let you start. >> Yeah, for me it was uh you know, I thought that this may be this this could be getting towards the end of my operational career. >> [laughter] >> Uh there was some couple other options that that may play out or not, but at this point, you know, just for me that this is a just just an awesome opportunity, you know, an awesome opportunity and I love the SEAL teams and to be a troop commander, tasking commander for me was just was awesome. I was again I guess I find myself uh struggling for words when it for me to be able to describe the things that I've had in my life like 2:32:28 being a platoon commander in Iraq when there's one platoon in Iraq like this is just this is like if you played football your whole life and you get to go to the Super Bowl you know or you you get you know you you are in a rock band and you get to play Madison Square Garden that's what it was for me this is the only thing I ever dreamed of doing the only thing I wanted to was be in the teams and now I'm in the teams and now I'm getting to getting to be in charge of some team guys and yeah it was it was awesome from the word go you know showed up and I like I I stole a lot of stuff from Colonel David Hackworth and one of the one of the key components that I stole from David Hackworth was he would rename the units that he would take over. So when he was in Korea, he took over Fox Company. He changed it to Fighter Company. When he was in Vietnam, he was in charge of the 439th, which was called the Hard Luck Battalion, and he changed it to the Hardcore Battalion. And he did that even 2:33:28 with each of his subordinate elements, he would change their name to something cool. And so when I took over Task Unit Bravo was the original Alpha Bravo Charlie, and I took over for Task Unit Bravo, and the first thing I did was change the name to Bruiser. and it's totally unofficial and I just went with it and that's what we got. So, >> where did you come up with Bruiser? >> Had to begin with B and there was an old band friend of mine had called the Bruisers and I was like that's too easy. So, there we go. >> Right on. >> Bruiser coming in hot. And I mean, let's face it, it's a it's a pretty good theme. >> It is a [ __ ] damn good theme. >> It's a pretty good theme. And that's again just something that I took from Colonel David Hackworth and and it does have >> I've worked with all all all kinds of companies now you know at Echelon Front and there's so many companies that have told me that their sales team gave themselves this name or their concrete team gave themselves a name. Like this 2:34:30 happens all the time now and people report back that yeah man it has an impact. You're you're not just team Alpha or team Bravo. You're you're tasking a cruiser. Let's go. Right on. Right on. I mean, did you know did you know you were going to Ramani when you took it? >> No. Uh, we didn't know where we were going at first. >> Anywhere like or anywhere in Iraq? >> So, there was one task unit that was designated to go to Iraq and that was Alpha and Bruiser and Charlie. One of us, one of those task units was going to go to Paycom, meaning no war. And so my commanding officer and master chief, they brought us all back. They brought the headshed from each task unit back and they said, "Hey, we if you want, we can take and we can split up the task units so that whoever hasn't been to Iraq can we can all put them in one task unit and they can all go to Iraq and then the other guys that 2:35:30 already have been to Iraq can go to Paycom, which is the fairy, right? like when the fair ferry shows up to try and make everything fair. And uh >> the fairy >> Yeah. I was I So I I had my opinion, but I went back and asked the guys because we were just starting our land warfare. And I said, "Hey, here's what they're offering. They're offering for us to split up and guys that haven't been to Iraq can go or we stay together and they send whoever performs the best to Iraq." And I kind of smiled and they're all like, "Hell yeah, let's go." So it was, you know, a little bit of a competition to see who goes to Iraq and, you know, we were we were very hardwork. >> Sounds like it. I mean, [ __ ] man. So many legend. Chris Kyle, Eli Crane's in there. I mean, >> Eli wasn't with us. >> Oh, he wasn't? Mikey Mansour. >> Yeah. >> I mean, wow. Wow. >> Yeah. bunch of uh and and you know a bunch of guys that whose names people 2:36:32 don't know um who are just awesome guys and I think so Tony Aphratty he he's the might be the one guy that I we were E5 Mafia team one me and Tony and I'm trying to think if I knew anyone else in there I might have known the I think I knew who the other platoon chief was another good guy I think but we weren't ever at the same team but I knew him, but other than that, I don't think I knew one single person in there. >> What do you think your What do you think your reputation was for them? What did they think they were walking into with you as their task at commander? >> I mean, Tony knew me. I mean, he knew exactly who I was, >> so he got the word out. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, Tony Tony Tony's as hard as they come. And Tony had has an outstanding reputation and had an outstanding reputation. And so, you know, he knew me and so that was that. And, you know, my my platoon in in Baghdad had done a lot of stuff. And so, 2:37:32 we, you know, I had a lot of experience at that time. You know, >> at that time, it was a lot of experience. And, you know, I was, like I said, I was a I was a enlisted team guy for eight years. >> Mhm. So, I at a minimum, you couldn't lie to me about what the radios could or could not do. You couldn't lie to me about like basic team guy stuff. You had to tell me what was what. [laughter] Had to tell me the truth about stuff. [clears throat and cough] When did you find out you were going to Baghdad? >> So, or not Baghdad, excuse me, Ramani. So, I would say about halfway through the workup, they said, "All right, you guys, Bruiser's going and look, Bruiser's going to back Bruiser's going to Iraq." We're like, "Yeah." So, we were planning to go to Baghdad and work with the ICTF, which the Iraqi counterterror force. I went on Advon as a matter of fact and I went and did some 2:38:36 ops with those guys and saw what they were doing and started the turnover with their task unit commander and that's what that was like kind of a very looked like it was going to be an awesome deployment. Like those guys had a good force that they were working with. They had a good optempo. They they just had good stuff going on. So looked like that's where we were going. And when we when I got home from that PDSS, they wanted to align all of cuz the East and West Coast were both in Iraq at the same time. And yet the the west coast had western Iraq except for they had an element in Baghdad and then the east coast had eastern Iraq except for they had an element in Rammani. And you can already see this doesn't >> make much sense, right? >> So as the as the two commanding officers were getting ready to deploy, they talked about it and were like, "Wait a 2:39:36 second. Why do we have our forces kind of uh disjointed? West coast, you take Western Iraq. That's like Fallujah, Habania, Rammani. East Coast, you take Baghdad, which includes the ICTF, and then the other stations that they were had. And it makes sense, you know, like there's no two ways about it. And uh when I heard that I I was on I wasn't on leave, but my guys were on leave, pre-eployment leave. Like we were that ready to go to Baghdad. And uh my skipper called me to the office and said, "Hey, what do you think about going to Rammani?" And I was like, I knew exactly what was going on in Romani. I mean, the intel reports were very clear that Rammani was a total total war zone, total disaster, and it was the the the worst area in Iraq. And I said, "Yeah, roger that." Nope. And I tried to [snorts] inside I was like, "Oh, hell yeah." Outside I said, "Well, 2:40:38 sir, you know, there's a couple more things I need." And I bargained to get like a few I bargained to get a few more people. I bargained to get like some computer stuff that we needed for our, you know, uh, for our communication stuff and he was like, "Yeah, I can get you. I can get you that. I can get you these other people." And I said, "I'm in." And that was it. Going to Romani. >> Did you know this was going to be this was it as far as kinetic deployments? >> Yes. Yep. >> [clears throat] >> There was sustained fighting every day. Like there was soldiers and Marines getting wounded and killed every day. And this isn't a big area. Romani is not a big city. >> It's small. >> Uh IEDs were totally out of control. >> So you had a pretty good idea what you were walking into. >> 100%. Yeah. Well, not 100% because, you know, there's still some things you're 2:41:39 going to learn, but I knew I knew what was happening. I was, again, thankfully, I had done that deployment to Baghdad. I had, you know, experienced as a as a enlisted SEAL, working for the admiral. Like, these are all things that help me understand. It's like it's like I was just a little bit ahead of the power curve. You know what I mean? Just just enough ahead of the power curve. You know, did you ever get rolled back in buds? >> Yes. >> I didn't get rolled back in buds, but you could tell that guys that got rolled back, they were like, "Okay, like pool comp, they know what's coming. They're just a little bit ahead." And that's how I felt like I was going into Romani. It was just ahead enough to know like, "Okay, I know what's coming." And and I told, you know, once the task was on the ground, I'm like, "This is going to be a historical deployment." >> How do you, >> which is a big statement that's not a small statement. I don't didn't throw that word around, but I I knew 2:42:40 I knew. >> How many guys did you have that had experience? >> Like actual experience. >> Every guy that wasn't a new guy had been to Iraq. >> You had a lot of new guys. I think >> we had a decent amount of new guys. We had a deceling, but we had a solid probably normal average number of new guys. Okay. >> Three, four guys per platoon, new guys, something like that. So, not overwhelming and all all great guys. >> I mean, if you knew what you were walk How Let me ask this. How many guys on your team or in your task unit had an idea of what they were walking into? I >> I don't know if anybody did. I don't know if anybody did. >> How do you prepare these guys for that? Um I mean the just telling them what's happening you know you you you put the sigaxs the significant activities which are basically enemy attacks brief the 2:43:40 sigax in the last 24 hours and then you brief them the sigaxs in the last 7 days and then you brief them on the sigax in the last month and it doesn't take a rocket scientist cuz in the last 24 hours there was three guys wounded one guy killed you know 38 enemy attacks and you think, "Wa, that's a rough day." But then you realize it's every day for 7 days and then you realize it's every day for 7 months. >> [ __ ] >> Or for for a month and then it's that's how it's been. And just before we showed up, like [snorts] the 38 Marines had had a terrible about about a week where they had lost four or five guys in that week before we showed up. And they'd lost a couple more before that. But, you know, that's that's what we're getting into. >> Who are your task unit at uh excuse me, who are your platoon commanders? >> Leif Babin and Seth Stone. Yeah, my brothers. Yeah, two guys. Um, 2:44:43 you didn't know them before? >> Didn't know them. Met them. And two guys from the Naval Academy. Neither one of them got selected out of the Naval Academy. They both had fought their way back from the fleet to get to the SEAL teams. Both of them from Texas. Both of them surfed. Um, neither one of them had much experience at all. But they were, dude, they just they wanted to be good. They wanted to be good team guys and they wanted to they wanted to fight they wanted to fight for God and country. And um, they were tough. They listened. Yeah. Yeah. They were couldn't couldn't ask for for better guys to work with, you know, for the for the two platoon commanders. And, you know, it's funny because Leif will tell the story about when I met those guys and how a I didn't smile to him and I wasn't nice to him and uh b 2:45:45 Seth thought I was going to fire him and I hated him. And it's actually true. >> Is it really? >> It's actually true. Not that I hated them, but that I might fire them. I didn't know who they were. I didn't know what their attitudes were. I didn't I didn't have high expectations that they were going to be, you know, successful or good. And so, and and you know what? This is another thing I stole from Hackworth. This is exactly what Hackworth would do. Hack where it's like, "Yeah, when I meet guys, I don't know who they are. I don't know what they're going to do. I'm not going to become friends with them because if they're not capable of doing the job, I'm going to get rid of them." And so, yeah, there's a reason why I didn't like bro out with them when I first met them because I will fire them if they're not going to do their job correctly or if they're more concerned about themselves than they are about the 2:46:47 platoon. And if you're more concerned about yourself than than your platoon, you you will not work for me. You will not work for me. And I will do everything I can to like get you out of the SEAL teams. So luckily and thankfully, those guys didn't have an ounce of that in them. You know, they wanted to take care of their platoon. They wanted to fight. They wanted that's what they wanted. And uh they did. Who are your chiefs? >> Well, the the the you know, the one chief is is um uh uh was Seth's chief and he's he's not in the public light. Uh and the other chief was Tony Arad. And you know, Seth Chief was great combination with Seth, hardworking guy and um a good compliment to Seth. And then Tony Tony Afra was 2:47:47 Leif's chief who again he was E5 mob with me at SEAL team one and uh like just a just a just a just a stud dude. I mean honestly he's on the on the platoon list that you form up for the apocalypse. Like Tony's he's on the top of the list you know because he's not going to back down and he's and he's great. You know, there's a situation when we were in um going through workup and I was watching Tony and Leif. They were getting ready to do some training op, just a real simple training op, you know, target like a like a iteration training on a target assault or something like that. And they're sitting there in the, you know, in the sand, you know, with the freaking sticks. And Tony tells him like, "Hey, hey, sir, we should come in from here. Set up a base over here. Move through here. rally point over here. That's what we should do. And Le's like, hey, that sounds really good. Why don't 2:48:47 you tell the guys? And uh Tony goes, I think it'd be good if it came from you. I was like, damn, dude. That's a professional. He's trying to elevate the platoon commander. Instead of him being like, I I want to show these guys that I'm the real guy in charge. Instead of doing that, he elevated Leif just in that little moment. That's one little one little moment in time where you see a guy that's like a real true professional whose ego is totally out of it. He wants to have a good platoon. So yeah, just uh epic. And you know since I was you know I'm good friends with Tony know I grew up with Tony and so we had a great relationship. Yep. Do you [clears throat] Before we go to a Marati, I just want to ask if if there was how did you address your team when you knew that's where you were going? What was how did you tell them? >> Stand by to get some, boys. 2:49:49 >> Yeah. It's weird. There was a there was a time earlier cuz I knew that Romani was the worst place and I had said at some point like we're we're gonna end up in Ramati. I had said that like I kind of knew it. So the guys were tracking. The guys knew what was what. And bro, the idea, you know, it's like I I I had a guy named Dean Lad on my podcast who was a Marine officer in World War II and like he's going into Tarawa and they're the threat brief that they're getting for Tarowa is like totally out of control. You can see it. The Japanese are dug in. They got mortars trained on the beach. They got machine gun, pill boxes, the whole nine yards. And the Torah was tiny. And I asked him the same kind of probing questions that you're asking me of like, well, how did you, you know, how did you feel? And I was like, well, were you nervous? Were you scared about getting wounded or killed? And he goes, that always happens to the other guy. 2:50:51 And that's exactly, you know, that's how I felt. That's how I I I can just about guarantee you every guy in Task Bruiser >> Mhm. >> when they heard we were going to Romani was like, "Hell yeah." Every single one of them was like, "Hell yeah. Nothing bad is going to happen. We're going to go and kick ass. That's what we do." Which is exactly what you want. [ __ ] awesome. >> Yeah. We're Frogman, dude. This is what we do. This is an opportunity. you know, the the storied legacy that the guys in Vietnam built that we got to, you know, you get to walk around in Coronado with a trident. I mean, not you're not walking around, but guys know you're a SEAL. You go into a MC's on a Thursday night, which I'm sorry you missed out on, >> but back in the day, you go into MC's on a Thursday night, >> like, you know, you're a badass. And I didn't do anything to earn that. nothing. I got to live off the reputation of the guys that came before 2:51:53 us. So to have an opportunity, get some of that back. Yeah, that's a that's a it's a huge uh opportunity and it's a heavy weight. We got to hold the line. >> Yeah. So you get to you get to Iraq, you're in Ramati. Mhm. >> Let's talk about day one. Yeah. So, we were on the PDSS or no, uh, the Advon, right? So, a few of us came over on the Advon and yeah, it everything I had read about was going on there. It was going on there and you know what day it was, I don't know, but we were going to a memorial service like almost out of the gate. Yeah. And again, what was what was what left a mark was I could tell in the memorial service that this was a 2:52:55 routine. Like it wasn't an ad hoc thing. Like I'm looking around and I go, "This is not an ad hoc thing." I've been in the military for at this point 15 years. I know what it looks like when you throw together a ceremony last minute and you get in there and you do something. This was not that. I'm looking at like the setup where they have the memorial crosses. Those things are not those things are used. I'm looking at where the preachers talking from. I'm like, "Oh, he's delivering remarks again." So that's this that's the my first memory of Rammani was that was going, "Yeah, these guys these you know, we're showing up here. These guys from the 228 under Colonel Gonsky, they've been here for 14 months. They've taken they've lost almost 100 guys. They've uh taken hundreds and hundreds of casualties and we're we need to do what we can to 2:53:56 help them. That was my attitude was like, we need to help these guys as much as we possibly can. >> Damn. And I'd like to I just want to remind the audience I mean your [clears throat] task unit the most decorated soft unit out of the entire Iraq war. That's what we're walking into. Yeah. We had um for some reason we had 13 snipers. And I say for some reason because that wasn't normal. >> You know both the platoon chiefs were snipers. We just had we were overloaded with snipers which was a real blessing. Um and that seeing remember I talked about being in Baghdad and we did a couple operations where I kind of caught a glimpse of what we could do with snipers like a little a little glimpse and when I saw what was happening there I thought to myself, oh I I I think I have an idea of what we 2:54:57 can do here. and the the turnover with the guys from team 2. Great great bunch of dudes. Um [snorts] it was like there was areas where and same thing with what the coalition forces were telling us. The 228 was like, "Hey, this area here, you can't go there. It's it's not passable areas. You know, there there are too many IEDs to go down there, period." So [sighs and gasps] it was um we knew I knew I knew it was going to be a fight cuz it was all around us. You go we lived that's another weird thing. It's like growing up watching war movies it was usually like good guys are over here. Bad guys are over there. You go over to fight the bad guys. Like okay World War I was trench warfare. Even the trenches seem like they were a little bit far apart. And Romani was like, "Oh, the 2:55:58 other side of this wall right here, there's bad guys." It's like the other side of that wall, there's bad guys. And when you go out the gate, you you go out the gate and there it is. You're in it. You're in Ramati. And you know, there's there was people killed on Ramani, you know, from mortars and rocket strikes and stuff like that. So, it was all around you. >> How big was Rammani? I I never made it out. >> Like four miles across. >> That's it. >> Yep. 350,000 people roughly speaking of civilians. Um, yeah, Camp Ramati was a pretty big base because it was a former Iraqi army army base. That was a pretty big base and we had a little annex to that base right on the Euphrates River as frogman should be. And within once the whole task unit showed up, like the night the task unit showed up, there was uh like a coordinated attack on various bases, ours being one of them. And like every guy in our task unit the first night that they showed up 2:56:59 and Romani was on the roof of our building just getting after it. >> No [ __ ] >> Yeah. So that was kind of a good welcome to Ramati as well. >> So you get Okay. So you're not in the middle of some big base. I mean, it's you go on the rooftop and you can engage. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we did. Yeah. >> The day one. >> Yeah. And it's funny, too, now that you mention it, the the Commodore at the time, >> who was the detailer that I asked to send me back to a SEAL team ASAP, who was the commanding officer when I was in Europe, so this guy's a friend of mine, and before we left, he it to a speech to the whole team, and I I harass him about this to this day. He's like, "Hey, the chances are none of you are going to shoot your weapons. Like, this is a different time." And all this stuff. And I think I sent him an email or a Webby thing. And I said, "Hey sir, we've been here for 48 hours. Every single guy in 2:58:01 my task unit and some of the techs have have engaged." And he was he was like, "Yeah, Roger." Great guy. >> Great [clears throat] guy. >> So, what was the mission set? Was it was it very specific or was it always something different? >> It it ended up being pretty specific and that is setting up sniper overwatch positions in support of the army elements on the ground. That's kind of one. We did do direct action missions with our Iraqi counterparts. We did the overwatches with Iraqi counterparts and we did, you know, uh, clearance operations, patrols to contact, reconnaissance missions, demo raids. We kind of got full spectrum frogman activities. Yeah. >> Wow. Yeah. It was um the the 228, who is the brigade that was on the ground when we got there, they they had pretty much secured the 2:59:01 outskirts of the city. And so there was just starting to initiate the idea of pushing into the city. And [snorts] it seemed like, and as a matter of fact, while my guys, before my guys arrived, we were getting word that one of the courses of action was a Fallujah type clearance of Rammani. And so now I'm like, oh, it's completely on, right? It is completely on. But Maliki, who is the president, just been elected, he said, "I don't want to do that type of assault on Fallujah because it'll cause a separation between the Sunnis and the Shia, and this will be this will be a civil war. Is there another way to do it?" And so this is where when the 11 AD showed up, which is the first brigade, first armored division, ready first brigade. when they showed up, they had a 3:00:03 plan that had been used in northern Iraq at Talifar to clear the city like a small section at a time and that's the what we ended up implementing. >> Do you think that was the right call? >> Uh yes. Yes, I do. I do because it would have caused so much destruction in the city that it it would have caused mass civilian casualties, displacement of people. It would have been very problematic had we done a Fallujah type clearance of Rammani. So, and I think there actually would have probably been more casualties had we done it that way on the US side. Certainly on the Iraqi civilian side, it would have been it would have been rough. So I thought it was a good plan. >> What was the first operation that you took your task unit in on? [snorts] >> We started doing some like almost immediately some small DAs and stuff like that. Like I remember the first DA 3:01:04 that Leif was going on and this was we had a when we first got there the first couple weeks we were still under command of Seal Team One. So my skipper hadn't taken over yet. So I had taken over the the Romani task unit Romani space, but my CEO wasn't in charge yet. And so my goal was to do as many missions as we could for the SEAL team one co so that my CEO would be like Joo knows what he's doing. And that's what we did. And I had a good relationship. I I had known the C co from SEAL team one. And when he came out and I met with him and I kind of presented the case and explained to him what I saw and how we're going to operate, he was just we got along great. And so when I started running up, you know, missions that we were going to do, he was he was approvening and and that was very cool. and we got very aggressive out of the gate and like but I remember Leif's first direct action mission 3:02:04 and he he may have never done a direct action mission before and I'm the task you commander but this thing was pretty close to the front gate and uh I'm like he can he can go do this thing and so he's putting together the plan and there's like a lot of stuff to organize and he came to me and he's like hey bro he's like I don't know if we're going to be ready for this and I'm like bro you're going to be fine you're totally good to go. You got this. And he was like, you you know, he trusted me, man. And I trusted him. That's why I was going. But he looked at me like with that kind of like like, okay, if you say so type thing, and he went out and did it, you know, it was all good to go. So, we we ran some missions like that. And then what happened was when I met the the colonel, Colonel Gronky, this is before the 1180 showed up because you're asking about the first missions that we did. So I had put Tony AR had taken a little sniper element with some Marines and him and 3:03:07 some SEALs and a couple Iraqi soldiers out to this area where the Marines had been IED and lost Marines. in early April. And so Tony went out there. They're in overwatch for 48 hours or something like that, 24 hours, 36 hours. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. I go to meet the brigade commander. And as I'm going to meet the brigade commander, I'm walking through his talk, like this is out of a movie. I'm walking through his talk and they're announcing like through the radios that the SEALs just engaged two IED implacers at this location where that IED had taken place. And I walk into his office and he goes, "Are those your guys?" And I'm like, "Yes, sir." And he said, "I need you over in Eastern Romani." And I said, "Roger that, sir. Let me let me get it fixed. Let me get let me get it together." And you know, we we chatted and he explained to me what was going on. This area called the Malaw District 3:04:07 run by the first of the 506 band of brothers. Outstanding outstanding army unit. I mean, just as awesome as it gets. They were in control of this or working to get control over this place called Malab District. And they were just getting annihilated with IEDs. I mean, it was absolutely horrible. And so went back and I put together a crew and to to go over to eastern Rammani and conduct a massive uh clearance with them. [sighs] So we're over there for a few days. We're getting to know the Iraqi troops. We're planning this big giant operation. And again, bro, when we're in [snorts] the SEAL teams and we think of a big operation, we think of like a task unit, right? maybe a task unit plus a company of rangers or, you know, a company of maybe a platoon of infantry guys. When I say big, bro, I'm talking like thousands, not not thousands, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 3:05:09 soldiers. >> So, we're planning this operation and >> it's weird. So, so now we're talking about what is the headshed doing like so in Rammani the leadership had had figured or made a decision that they didn't want any battalionsized operations conducted in Romani. But this clearance was going to take that whole battalion plus to get it done. And they run it up the chain of command. Hey, we want to do this battalion sweep of this area. And it comes back, hey, no battalion sized operations. And so they said, okay. So we took and broke up this battalion sized operation into like multiple smaller operations that were company plus-sized operations. It's a little bit of a shell game is what I'm getting at. But it was the mandate that had come down and the commanding officer of the battalion 3:06:09 said, "Okay, that's the mandate we got to meet. here's how we can here's how we can maneuver around that and still accomplish the mission. [snorts] So that's what we ended up doing. And this is this is the you know you're talking about the first major operation. So this is the first major operation that we're doing. We're planning to sweep a certain section of the city first thing in the morning. Then we're going to reset do another section of the city then do another section. >> And what do you mean by sweep? clear like reconnaissance over watch. >> I'm talking the Iraqi soldiers with the US Army, but primarily the occ Iraqi soldiers in in the lead are going to enter every building >> in a area. >> It's a clearance operation. >> Okay. >> Meet with the people, see if they have weapons, talk to them about get atmospherics, and then go to the next building and go to the next building and go to the next building. So as they do this, they know that they're going to get attacked. So in 3:07:10 order to interdict the attacks and they also know that once you clear a street of IEDs in a matter of hours, they come out and we called it receding the IEDs, which is it's it happens so much that they have a term for it. It's receding the IDs. So they know that if we clear a a road and get rid of the IDs, the enemy will come back in and put IDs. So when we put together this plan, I have a group of SEALs that are going to go with the Iraqi soldiers to help them and do C2 for their clearance operation. And [snorts] then I have two elements of SEALs that are going to go out and one of them is going to overwatch one of these long axis roads and the other one's going to overwatch a shorter access road, but also the Romani soccer stadium which is a staging area for the enemy. And then I am going to be with the company commander who's an awesome guy, Joe Clayburn. Crazy crazy Joe Clayburn. I'm going to be with him because he's 3:08:11 helping C2 and the the Iraqi soldiers with elements of his company. There's a lot going on, man. >> Yeah, no kidding. So we launch pre-dawn and this is another thing um pre-dawn operation and and we had done stoner had taken guys out with Clayburn with Joe Clayburn like a few days earlier and he had got in a big gunfight and when they came back I was standing at the gate waiting for him when they came back and I you know he's like totally impressed And I walk with him to his battalion commander and this guy, this company commander Joe Clayburn who's been in Iraq for four or five months at this point. He's lost two guys. I think he's had a bunch of guys wounded. I think at that point like 20% of his guys have been wounded or killed. And he goes to the battalion commander and he says, "I want SEALs with me on every operation I do from here on out." From one 3:09:13 engagement with my guys, he was impressed. And we were I mean I was overwhelmingly impressed with him and his guys. They they were outstanding. But that's how much we hit it off with these guys. And I've told him since that that was the best compliment I've ever got in my life was when a was when an army company commander goes and tells his battalion commander, "I want SEALs with us on every operation we do from here on out." After just getting in a major engagement. So now you fast forward a few days and we're going on this mission. And as we're driving in, it's eerie. And the what the mooj would do is they would light uh tires on fire. And so you're rolling into town, it's black smoke everywhere. There's fires burning. Very, very eerie as we roll in. And I have already have my sniper elements had inserted at this point. And one of they they were inserting on 3:10:13 the mind clearance vehicles. So, it's a pretty sneaky little operation. You know, the mine clearance vehicle goes by, it stops to clear a mine, but then some seals get out of the back and go set up an Overwatch position. Very cool. So, they're in position. The one by the soccer stadium is in position. The other group gets in their spot and the building that they had selected was not the way it looked like it was going to look on paper or the way the way it looked on the overhead imagery. They didn't have a good view of this long axis road that was going to be utilized for the clearance which was bad because it was going to get cleared and then it would be hours before the op started and now we'd have possible IDs getting receded. That's a problem. Didn't want that to happen. So that element decided to move and now there's a lot of time compression. the sun's starting to come up and we're like as they realize the sun's coming up, they're like, "Oh, we don't have good visibility of the road that we 3:11:14 need. That's our that's that's their commander's intent is to watch this road." They can't see the road. They decide to move. As they move, they go into a building that is just outside the limit of advance, and I'm sorry for civilians that I'm talking in military jargon, but there's a point where the clearance operation was supposed to stop. And so, they're on the other side of it's a road. It's like, okay, the clearance operation, they will not go past this road. So now, as things start to develop, I've got my guys, my sniper element over by the soccer stadium. They're starting to engage enemy. The SEALs that are pushing through, they're starting to enc uh experience resistance and they're starting to engage with my little element starting to engage. So there's a lot of enemy fighters out there. And at some point, one of the Iraqi elements, which I don't know why they did this or 3:12:16 I did not know, no one knew that they were going to do this. They had decided that they were going to set their own cordon around the area that was being cleared. So [snorts] by themselves, they ran from where the clearance was taking place all the way to the limit of advance road and they went across it to enter the building and set up a an overwatch position for themselves. That's where my guys were. So, one of my guys and and again, there's so many little details that go into this, but we had seen they they give us intel pictures and the intel pictures have body armor and helmets and AK-47s and chocolate chip camies that the enemy has. So, we know that the enemy can be wearing body armor, chocolate chip camies, helmets, and we know they carry AK-47s. So, one of my guys is in that overwatch and they're looking out the bottom floor and 3:13:17 they see a guy with an AK-47. Again, it's like not quite nods time. It's the worst time of day, dude. >> And the guy sees a guy with an AK-47 maneuvering through the courtyard, which they had zip tied the courtyard shut. So, this guy had actively entered the courtyard and was now maneuvering. And my guy shot him. obviously and looking back this was a this was one of those Iraqi soldiers that had run up there. So now him and his Iraqi soldiers and there was a small marine element that had gone with there's an Anglico element had gone with these guys cuz the job of the Anglico is to keep track of the frontline trace of where friendly forces are. So they see these Iraqi soldiers run off and they follow them cuz they're freaking awesome Marines and they're doing their job. So now they get up to where this where this guy is, where the small element is. And they're like, "What's going on?" They're like, "Hey, you know, broken English, the whole yard. One of our guys went in that compound, he he got shot." And so then 3:14:22 what do they do? They all start shooting. So what we end up with now, now we're entering the blue on blue. This is a blue-on blue happening. And as my guys in the overwatch position are now returning fire at the Iraqis that are dumping down rounds trying to get their guy out of the courtyard. The Iraqis call for the QRF. So now a QRF launches to go down and it gets to that corner. 50 caliber machine gun, puts it on the on the overwatch, my overwatch position. And again, this overwatch position is Iraqi soldiers and seals and starts engaging with 50 cal into this overwatch position. As this is happening now, my guys call the heavy QRF, [snorts] which is tanks. And as this happens, I look at the company commander, Joe 3:15:22 Clayburn. I'm like, "Hey, those are my guys calling QRF. Let's go like follow these tanks down there. Roger that. So, we kind of break contact over here and we pull out onto that main road, Farooq Way is what it was called. And as we're driving down this road, I'm looking and I see the tank and I see red smoke, which is what what we use for emergencies. And I see the tank and I'm I I just as soon as I looked around, I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I knew something. My gut instinct was telling me there's something something is wrong. So I get out of the Humvey and I'm with my SEA. He's a great dude. And I I look and I see the Gunny sergeant from Anglico. And I'm like, "What's happening?" And he goes, "There's moo in that building right there." He goes, "What? He's like, "We're going to call for fire. Like, we got to take him out." 3:16:23 I'm like, "Okay, stand by." Cuz I didn't feel comfortable. And uh looked at my like sea gave him like the head nod and he like got on my gave me the squeeze and I started walking up and as I'm walking up to this compound, I see a white on the ground and on the door I see a white zip tie and I'm like, "My guys are in here." And I kick the door open. And when I kicked the door open, I saw uh platoon chief Tony Freddy standing there and he's like stoked to see me because they called the QRF. He's thinking I'm the QRF. And I go, "What happened?" And he said, "Hey, guy was coming. Guy was coming through the courtyard. We engaged him and then they brought it." And I looked at him. I said, "It was a blue-on blue." and he looked at me like totally confused and 3:17:24 he said, "Can we get the guys out of here?" I said, "Yeah." And we had a 113 was down there as a Kazak already. So, got the SEALs and the Iraqi soldiers that were in there, put them in the 113 to get them out of there. And Tony stayed with me cuz Tony's like there's a reason why I said Tony's like top of the list cuz Tony just got 150 rounds shot at him through a 50 cal. By the way, one of my other guys, Matt Hasby, he got fragged in the face. I I don't He was so had so accepted his death. It was wild. But Tony through all that was just like, "Hey, I'm staying with you, boss." I'm like, "Check. No factor. Those guys go back." And I went up then to the company commander and uh same thing. I looked at him. I said, "Hey, it was a blue on blue." And his same same look like what? And I said, "It was a blue on blue." And he radioed it in. So, and by as soon as I saw that white zip tie, I I had figured out what had happened, you know? I like, "Oh." And I saw the building from the map where my 3:18:24 guys were supposed to be, where they were originally planning to be. I knew that I was at the limited advance. Like, I knew what had happened. And then in talking to that Anglico guy was like, "Yeah, the the Iraqis pushed down here." And I was like, "Oh, so we finished the clearance, you know, because that's what you do." Like there's still a mission going on. We finish the clearance and as we finish the clearance, we then we're we're now like some elements stay out there, but the bulk of the clearance force is now going back to base. I go back to base and myself and the company commander go to the same battalion commander that he had just told he wanted to seals with us on all of his operations. And this battalion commander is one of the best guys. Like seriously one of the best leaders I've ever met. And he looked at me and he looked at he looked at uh Jill and he's like what happened out there? And there's a giant battle map, like 3:19:27 literally wallpaper. And I just walked through it with him. I was like, "Hey sir, I had an element here. I had an element here. Uh my my element moved to here. This Iraqi element pushed down." He goes, "They they went past a limited advance. My guys didn't know who they were. Engaged them. Uh they called the QRF. My guys got engaged by the QRF. My guys called the heavy QRF. I came down and made the connection." And he was like, and this guy was, you know, he'd been in Vermati for six months as a battalion commander or five months or whatever it was at that time. I guess they got there in December. Yeah. So it' been like four or five months. He was just awesome. And he was like, "Okay." He's like, "We learned from that. Don't let it happen again. We got another mission to do." And I was like, "Rogger that, sir." And so we went rejocked, went out again, did a whole another operation, got done with that clearing sector, and again, now everything's, you know, we we didn't have any more of 3:20:27 these things happen. And then we came back, did it again, boom, rolled out. So we end up doing clearances the whole day, engaging all kinds of enemy fighters, the whole nine yards. And then I get back once the last mission is done because these were daytime operations. You know, other than us inserting at night once the sun was setting, the Iraqi soldiers can't clear it at night. So, it's a daytime operation. That's why. Then I get back and I open up my uh my uh field computer and needless to say I had some emails and some some text you know the webbby texts to explain that hey stand down uh investigation is commencing as as to what happened. I'm like yeah roger that. So, we consolidate and we go back over to uh Western Rami, Camp Ramati, Camp Mark, 3:21:28 what we end up calling Camp Mark Lee. And now I'm getting ready to debrief and my my skipper sends me an email like, "Hey, we'll be out there tomorrow. Be ready to debrief." And now I'm trying. So now one Iraqi soldier's dead, multiple Iraqi soldiers wounded, and one of my guys wounded. Blue on blue. Dude, it's a freaking nightmare. It's a It's a nightmare. So, I spend the next however many hours trying to figure out who is to blame for this. I'm My assumption is someone's getting fired, right? Because you can't have a blue on blue and no one gets fired. My assumption is someone's getting fired. So, that's kind of the question is who's getting fired? So, I go down the list of like the element leader that was in charge of the Iraqi soldiers. Guess what he didn't do? He didn't keep control of those soldiers and let them go down and leave the limit of advance. 3:22:29 The radio man that was in charge of that element that moved positions didn't tell me or anyone else where he's going. He just did it. Shooter shot a guy without doing a good P. Like I went down the list and was figuring out who was to blame. And there was something in my gut that felt so disgusted by my thoughts and it I was probably, you know, a half an hour away from when the CL arrived and I couldn't figure out why I felt so disgusted in this debrief. And it occurred to me like a giant slap upside my head that the reason I felt disgusted is because I was trying to blame people for things that were my fault. Because this operation, like every operation, when you are the senior 3:23:31 leader on the battlefield, you're in charge of everything. And every one of those mistakes that happened are because of me. They're they're because of me because I failed as a leader to convey how important it was to pass your location. I failed to convey as a leader how important the limit of advance was. I failed to convey how important it was to keep control of those Iraqi soldiers. Those those things are my fault that that's happened. Not any one of those guys. And so when the commanding officer showed up and then the command master chief and the investigating officer and they're sitting there in the room with my wounded guy who's got his head bandaged up. It's Matt Hasby. You know Matt, right? >> Matt was my swim buddy in second phase. >> So I'm looking at Matt in the back. I mean it's only a miracle that he's alive, right? He had 50 cal punching through the roof. He's laying there. He drew out his pistol so he could like 3:24:32 fend for himself as as he got overrun. >> [ __ ] So, and and I I will say with that moment when I realized why I felt disgusted, I felt so relieved like, "Oh, you're an idiot. This is you." And I felt, okay, this is you. This is what you did. You're you're in charge. You're responsible. and this is what the leader does. And so I went in the room and you know I I asked that question whose fault was this? And there was a there was a pretty good moment of silence and then some you know someone chimed in. Well hey it was my fault I did this and I was like no it wasn't your fault. And then the radio and said no it was my fault. I said no it wasn't your fault. >> The whole team was in there. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Everyone in Task Bruiser was in there and the command master chief and the skipper and the investigating officer 3:25:32 and I went around the room and asked, you know, whose fault is this? And everybody, you know, whether it was they wanted to blame the Iraqis, whether they want to take ownership themselves, everybody was chiming in on whose fault it was. And then I said, "No, it wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault. There's only one person to blame, and that person's me." And that is the truth. That is the truth. when you are in charge of a team and something goes wrong, it is your fault. And then I said, "And here's some things that we're going to do to make sure that this doesn't happen again." And I started talking about time and space deconliction. I started talking about how we were going to overly signal. We went through some protocols, but that was it. And you know, my boss who I already had a a great relationship with and the master chief who's a great, you know, legendary master chief, he you know, those guys my my relationship and trust with them went up in both directions because 3:26:36 they understood what they understood what had happened. They understood that I understood And I think, you know, if they would have they they would they would have been in their rights to say, "Hey, Jaco, you're done." Or they could have fired anyone in that long chain of command. I I would have uh I would have protested with my own um job if they would have tried to fire someone else besides me. But, you know, I had a good relationship with with them. They understood how complicated it was. They saw all these little things. There's there's a a million other little elements I can tell you about. Like the fact that Matt Hasby who was getting shot at with a 50 caliber machine gun, which you'd think, hey dude, you're getting shot at with a 50 cal. That's that's an American weapon. Like that's not common. Well, 12 hours prior to this, he was in a sniper tower and he got engaged with a 3:27:37 dishka 12.7 machine gun by the enemy. And [snorts] he was he told me he was literally up there thinking, "I can't believe these guys of the DISKA found me again." Because otherwise, if you think you're getting shot at with a 50 cal, you call cease fire, you throw a red smoke, you do something to stop it. He had no idea. And so that that's, you know, to um to the credit of my command master chief and and my commanding officer, they listened to me, I listened to them, and we we carried on. And that was a very rough uh way to begin the deployment. >> Do you have any idea how much credibility was boosted within you with your team that day? >> I don't know. Um but I can tell you that you and I have both sat in rooms where some officer blamed someone else other than themselves. And you and I both know that that is disgusting. >> Mhm. And 3:28:38 I that's what disgusted me, the fact that I was even having those thoughts. And you know, part of it was me trying to truly figure out what happened, but part of it was like, oh yeah, this is you trying to look for someone to blame. There's no one to blame. You're in charge. So, you know, I the guys in the troop, the guys in the task unit, like these guys, I'm not a hard person to figure out. I'm not maneuvering in some way. I'm not I'm I am who I am and I'm Those guys knew that and so I think I would have lost a lot of respect. I think I did what they probably expected I was going to do. You know I maybe some of them were pleasantly surprised but I think most of them knew me. They didn't you know I think I would have been a it would have been it would have been very out of character if I had gone in there and blamed someone else. That's not >> that's not how that's not how it works. You know, again, this goes back to that uh platoon commander I had. You know, 3:29:40 that guy, he was responsible for everything when we screwed something up. Even when we screwed something up, even when one time one of my friends got in trouble like on Liberty and he wasn't even there. He wasn't even there. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I should have seen this coming." I was like, "Check." So, uh, when things go wrong, you better take ownership of it. And they certainly went wrong in that scenario. And, you know, there's another um, the Commodore of Group Two at the time who was a guy that was a legendary legendary leader in the SEAL teams. And he had been a Marine in Vietnam. [clears throat] and he had come in at the tail end of way city and I don't I can't remember if I talked to him or if he emailed me but he said something along the lines of hey Jono I don't know if you know about 3:30:42 me yes I know about you sir I was in the tail end of way city in Vietnam I saw he you know he was one of those guys that made it very clear that he was not in the battle of way city but he showed up there afterwards or he's at the tail end of it and he said Um he rattled off the percentage like a third of the casualties in way city were were fractur side that's just one battle it's like this complicated stuff and it was the first he was he let me know like okay this stuff this is war and by the way >> the army like that battalion commander blue on blueue was a part of Rammani you know we think of in the seal teams when we think of blue on blue it's you're getting kicked out of the seal tubes. Like if you and I are running around with Sim and I shoot you, there's a decent chance I'm getting get kicked out of the seal tubes. >> Mhm. >> Like that's how much of a mortal sin it is. And the army and the Marine Corps, they were like, it's just like it we have to mitigate it 3:31:43 as much as we can, but if you can't it's it can happen. >> It's just part of it. >> It's part of it and it's a horrible part of it. And look, we we had other blue-on-on blues that potentially could happen. We had shots fired, but we never had it escalate like that one did. And that's because we learned a lot of lessons from that one. And we prevented all kinds that never escalated at all. That never happened. But, you know, it's one of those, it's funny, we we in Extreme Ownership, Leif and I were writing our kind of chapters independently and it ends up there's three chapters in there that are about blue on blue. One of them was Chris Kyle with a P on a guy with a scoped weapon and he's telling Leif like, "Hey, I got a guy with a scope weapon in this building. Is there any friendlies in that building?" And Leif's calling the company commander, "Hey, do you got any friendlies in this building?" And the guy's like, "No." He's we got a guy with a scope weapon. He's like, "Kill him because there's snipers that are killing Americans." And Chris like didn't quite 3:32:46 feel comfortable and Leif was like, "Hey, he's saying we're cleared." And goes back and forth and finally Leif's like, "Hey, we don't feel comfortable taking the shot." And the guy's kind of pissed and this is a great company commander. Guy's kind of pissed. And he's like, "Okay, well, we'll go clear it." And Le's like, "Roger, we got, you know, we'll we'll tell you what we see." And a few minutes later, the army goes to assault that building, but they come out of the building that they were going to assault. There was a They didn't know we miscounted the buildings or they miscounted the building. I forget what it was, but that right there, man, if Chris could have shot one of friendlies, but you we had to be so careful about these engagements. >> Yeah. And then there was another one that I wrote about where we had a element sniper element on a rooftop and there's a Bradley fighting vehicle on a intersection and he calls back like hey we got we see bad bad guys on the building of building 48J or whatever the building was and the company commander's like you got any guys on that building? I'm like 3:33:49 hold on. I'm like because it's you know multiple guys with scope weapons on top of a building. I'm like, "Do me a favor. Have the Bradley count the number of buildings he sees till he gets to that target." And he's like, "What?" And I go, "Please." And he's like, "Okay." Says, "All right. Hey, whatever. Dash one, count the number of buildings you see before you get to that target building." Guy's like, "What?" He said, "Count the number of buildings." Counts the number of buildings. Come back. He said, "Uh, hey, we misided the number the building. It's actually building 32." like, "Yeah, we got friendlies on that building. Do not engage." So, that's what we were dealing with a lot. And there was cases in Romani of people engaging Humvees. Like, there's probably no vehicle in the world with a more distinct silhouette than Humvey. And we had guys in we there was soldiers and Marines that engaged Humvees because of the confusion and chaos of the battlefield. 3:34:49 So that's how we started off with a massive lesson learned >> with a lesson learned like that and you took ownership of that. I mean and and this is this is advice for future future leaders in war. I mean how do you how do you brush that off and get your head back in the game? >> Well, what are we going to do to prevent it? you know, like we got lessons learned and you know, I think when you're shooting head plates and you miss one, if you start thinking about the one that you just missed, you're going to miss two more. >> Mhm. >> And I think that's a really important thing to be able to do with other factors in your life of, hey, look, this happened, it went bad, we need to fix it. We need to fix it and we need to move on. If you live in the past on stuff it [snorts] without, you know, you learn from it, but you can't, you know, it's like I say about when when you with with losing people. If you 3:35:49 lose someone like your friend, your your parents, your brother, your sister, whoever, someone close to you dies, you got to remember them, but you can't dwell in the past. You can't just you can't just be there forever because then you're not moving forward. So I think it's the similar activity here from my standpoint is like okay like this is what we did wrong. These are the lessons that we learned and here's how we we move forward. >> Did you feel any type of reluctancy to to address your men as a is as is their leader again after that? Immediately after that no? >> No. I man I was really close with these guys, you know, up and down the chain of command. >> Um, these guys had we did a workup together. They've seen me in every different type of scenario. >> They're not like these are these are my 3:36:50 brothers. >> Mhm. >> Um, and we had great relationships, you know, so I wasn't I if I would have blamed one of these guys, I would have been ashamed to show my face. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? Mhm. >> But they were more like, "Hey, this wasn't your fault." Like, "Yes, it was." Like, they've tried to reexplain to me, you know? >> Well, the other thing is they're all thinking, "He's got our [ __ ] back." That's really definitely one of the most important attributes of a good leader is knowing that your guy, your boss, has your [ __ ] back. >> Yeah. Yes. It is absolutely and and you got to know that they have your back. And this is, you know, this is one of those things where it turns into or you have to watch out because if you work for me and your impression of me that I 3:37:50 give you is that no matter what you do, I'll cover for you. Now, we get into a bad zone because you have to know that if you do something that's immoral, illegal, or unethical, I'm not going to have your back. Now, if you explain to me what happened and what went wrong, and you had a what we what we learned from the army, which is a good shot, bad result, 100%. 100%. But if you are doing things that are illegal, immoral, or unethical, you need to know that I will not have your back. And even something even, you know, even this isn't that extreme, but like I would tell guys, uh, hey, you get a DUI, it doesn't matter what I do to your back cuz you're it's going to be in the system and you're going to get in trouble and there's nothing I can do about it. Like there's nothing I can do. Like I can go and be a character witness and tell tell the Commodore how great 3:38:51 you are, but the Commodore is going to go, "Oh yeah, you had a DUI. You're getting you're getting uh busted down and you're pulling your from your platoon and I have it doesn't matter how much I have your back." That's what's happening. So yes, you're right. But as a leader, you've got to put those parameters up to make sure that guys understand what the left and right lateral limits are. And they can be big, but they're not infinite. And that's why I need to know that you have my back. Because if you're out doing something that you shouldn't be doing, what are you doing to me, man? Cuz I am going to I'm going to get take the fall as well. It's not like I'm just going to be like, "Oh, no. He did it." Cuz I I am responsible. You do something stupid or you do something illegal and you get rolled up, I'm going down, too, as I should because I let it happen. So, yes, 100%. And these guys knew that. These guys knew that that is how we we have to operate. And luckily for me, like I said, I did that tour as the admiral's aid. I 3:39:53 understood what what those left and right lateral limits were. I understood that very well. And that was a a real blessing because there were no there wasn't really any ambiguity about that. If you do some something that's outside the box, I will not have your back. Anything you do inside the box, and like I said, it's a big box. A big box. I got you. But you better be doing good things at least with the best intent. And And are mistakes going to happen? Yeah, man. They are going to happen, especially in a combat zone. Like, are civilians going to get killed in the combat zone? Yes, they are. Are the wrong breaches going to happen to the wrong building? Yep, they're going to happen. These the there are things that are going to happen and I will have your back as long as your intent was good. As long as you were doing the right thing for the right reasons all day. And yeah, my guys knew 3:40:54 that for sure. And I knew that with them. How was it working with Chris Kyle? >> Great. Yeah, it's great. He was a very dedicated sniper. He was a wise ass. He was funny as hell. He was a [ __ ] talker. Um, in like a good team guy way. And he was just a great guy to have in a platoon. Yeah, man. Like you'd see him and Tony looking at imagery for hours trying to figure out what building would be best, looking at the angles, looking at the distances, looking at the long axis. Like that's what they did. And you know, he he was good, man. He was good. He would spend, you know, a long time on his gun in sniper overwatch positions and he 3:41:56 would set himself up for some good positions. You know what I mean? like he would set himself up on some long axis positions where he can see four or five blocks and meanwhile like a new guy sniper might see half of an alley. >> So, but he earned that position, you know, he earned it with his patience and his and his discrepancy. Like he was he was very very good. He was as good as it gets. >> Was he good at passing on wisdom? Yeah, you know, I I'd say I was a little bit out of the line of fire of him passing on wisdom because I wasn't a sniper. Um, but you know, he he'd pass on some hassling to these new guys. I can tell you that. >> The the funny thing is, you know, they um he liked to do this is weird, but he liked to do like pranks like a like a grade school kid. Like he would prank people, do funny stuff. Like that's that's what he was like. So, he wasn't that, you know, in the movie they make 3:42:56 him out to be like super serious all the time and all this stuff. And he was actually just a a funny, great guy to be around that brought a lot of uh brought a lot of entertainment with him, you know, a lot of entertainment. [laughter] >> Right on. >> And we had, you know, and we had a good crew of guys that was, you know, I that's a SEAL platoon, man. It's a SEAL platoon. I I was I guess there's SEAL platoon where they're not like having fun and and ribbing each other and you know being brothers. But I was never in a ploon like that. I was always in a platoon that was freaking awesome to hang around. And you know when I was a young Seal, what' I do on the weekends? I went to the team. We went to the team on the weekends. Went to the team on Saturday and worked on your gear. Went to went to the team on Sunday and and worked out with your 3:43:57 buddies. That's all we did. That's what we did cuz there wasn't anything else. >> And once I had a family, I had to like >> at least take a little bit of time. But even then, I was my family was second to my platoon, to my task unit, to the teams. I I would love to tell you that I'm embarrassed to admit that or that that's not the right thing, but when you're in the SEAL teams, I think that is the thing. That is >> the [ __ ] way it is, man. >> That's the way it is. And and you know, God bless my wife who was just like a saint, but she handled the family stuff and I handled the war stuff. Were you Were you married at this time? >> Yep. So going to Rammani I had uh three kids at that time. >> You had three kids. >> Y >> How were you handling dep I mean how was how long how many deployments had you done married with kids and or with kids? >> Two well no one uh three. Three. So my daughter was born my oldest daughter was 3:44:58 born the day before I went on the strike deployment in at team two. She was born and I left. never changed a diaper. And then while I was in college, I had two more kids cuz I was home. And then um and yeah, I mean I I was I was in the SEAL teams, man. Like we go on deployment, we go to war, and >> you want you want to be with your kids, but you're not going to be with your kids in the SEAL teams. >> It's not a good it's not a good family environment. Now, if you have a strong family, you know, uh men have been going, you know, on some form of deployment since the beginning of time. You said this at breakfast, and I [ __ ] love this. >> I mean, cuz I hear sometimes people like, "Oh, you know, the father's got to be around." Like, I wasn't around, you know? And a lot of dads weren't around and they raised some awesome 3:45:59 kids. And so, yeah, guys have been going on the hunt, on the sea voyage, on the crusade, whatever you're going on. Men have been going on that stuff for a long time. And the the the kids understand that. And the the moms understand it. And they raise warriors. How long have you been married? >> Uh, I think 28 years. What is the secret to a successful marriage? >> Uh there's a couple, but number one is marry like a pretty awesome woman. Uh and then you know just apply the principles of leadership to your to your marriage. You know, it's the same principles that you want your wife to listen to you, you better listen to her. You want your wife to trust you, you better trust her. You want your wife to respect you, you better treat her with respect. You want your wife to care about you, you better care about her. You do, if 3:47:01 something goes wrong, you better take ownership. So, that's worked out great for me. And my wife's a saint. My wife's a saint. I'm sure she is. >> Want more from the Shawn Ryan Show? Join our Patreon today for more clips and exclusive content. You'll get an exclusive look behind the scenes where you can watch the guests interact with the team and explore the studio before every episode, plus unlock bonus content like our extra intel segments where we ask our guests additional questions, our new SRS on-site specials, and access to an entire tactical training library you will not find anywhere else. And the best part, Patreon members can ask our guests questions directly. Your insights can help shape the show. Join us on Patreon now. Support the mission and become part of the Shaun Ryan Show's story. 3:48:13 [bell] 3:48:38 You know, when you when you were asking me about the pressure on my first deployment to Iraq and I told you that I didn't really feel this, you wasn't the the the idea of someone getting wounded or killed was kind of a little bit of a distant thing in the back of my mind. And in Romani, it was front of mind. And when you see that many casualties happening like on a daily basis, there is the odds are going to catch you. And of course, do you hope am I fatalistic? 3:49:38 Because that was my thought process. Maybe. But it was also just numbers, man. It was just the numbers. You just look at the numbers and every day, every time you leave the wire, [snorts] there is there is a chance. And so it's a daily basis. And listen, the Army and the Marine Corps are just making the most incredible sacrifices. You see it, you go to their memorials, you hear it on the radio. That's one thing that was, you know, you'd hear it on the radios. You'd hear, "Hey, there's one KA heading back to Camperotti, heading to Chore, three wounded, heading to Charlie Med." Like, you would hear these things. It's just constant. This is daily >> daily. So and you know I try and give as much 3:50:42 admiration to the army and the Marine Corps who fought so hard in such terrible conditions [sighs] and that's what they were facing every day. And that's what we were facing. And we had the blue-on blue happen almost pretty quickly thereafter. Cowi got wounded bad and you know Cowi's just a stud and he's in Charlie Med. He's all doped up on morphine. The doc pulls me aside and he's like, "Hey, I don't know if this leg's gonna make it." Roger. And Kawi, like I, you know, bend over to like hold his hand and he's like the first thing's out of his mouth. 3:51:44 Let me stay. Damn. 3:52:00 So that's the kind of guys you got, you know, let me stay. So, you know, this is um once the 11 AD shows up with Colonel McFarland, later General McFarland, you know, that's when we start pressing in to the city. That's when we started supporting these combat overwatch or the yeah these uh combat outposts being built in the city which is a huge construction project and there's a time period when they're building these combat outposts in the city that they're extremely vulnerable because they're doing a construction project in the middle of a war zone. And so what can we do to help that is we can set up sniper overwatch positions and when the enemy would maneuver in to attack them we would kill them. And it was actually General McFarland. He he he wrote it in an article. Um 3:53:01 it's like those combat outposts being built were bait. You know he didn't put them out there as bait. He put them out there on the grand strategy of taking over the city. But >> it's like a salt lick. [clears throat] you know, you start building this construction project in the middle of downtown Rammani, the insurgents are absolutely going to attack you. And when they do, my guys would be in an offset position, 200 m away, 300 m away, 400 m away, looking down a long axis avenue of approach where the mooge would come and they'd kill him. And it was, you know, an ideal setup for us. You know, it was when we started doing this, like the the amount of the amount of scrutiny for the 11 AD for General McFarland, you know, he was getting scrutinized on the 3:54:02 amount of combat that his guys were getting, the amount of casualties, and the amount of killing that he was doing. he was getting that scrutiny from his from the from the meth and [snorts] I was feeling the same thing um and it was always like please come see come and see come and see what's happening here you'll it doesn't take long to figure out and thankfully you know they did you know I had the the siege of commander who's a great guy at the time came down visited the you know the commodore visited the SOCOM commander visited you General General Brown, SOCOM commander, he came to see us in Romani. We got 35 SEALs, bro. He's in charge of all of the world of special operations. He came to Romani to see what we were doing to talk to the conventionals, make sure that they were getting what we needed. So, there was a lot of eyes on what we were doing and part of that was because of the amount of people we were killing and part of it was because they were very risky operations. 3:55:05 >> Can I I want to ask a question. Mhm. >> You'd been studying this, you'd been studying Rammani since before you got there. You know, Seals have what, year and a half workup. You started studying. Sounds like I think what did you say? Maybe you maybe found out 6 months into workup that you were going to Rammani. >> No, we didn't know we were going to Ramati until like a couple weeks before. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Well, you're talking about doing dailies, weeklies, monthlies of troops in contact, casualties. You've studied you've you've studied this [ __ ] battle space. It's very obvious. It's hot. Why are you Why would anybody be under scrutiny for the amount of combat that they're seeing when they want you to incrementally take over a [ __ ] city? [snorts] That makes zero sense to me. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> And again, it wasn't just me and special operations. General McFarland was 3:56:06 feeling the same thing. >> And again, just like General McFarland had a a great relationship with the MEF commander. I had a great relationship with my commanding officer. And so when I explained to him what was happening, you know, we started probably a few weeks, like three weeks into these sniper overwatches that we were doing. This is early in deployment. And we'd killed I don't know how many probably I don't know 10 15 something mostly IED implacers [snorts] and I talked to my headquarters and they're like hey you know you're killing these IED implacers but the IEDs haven't gone down yet. And I said, "Hey, sir, the uh the average insurgency according to the counterinsurgency manual lasts seven years. It's been three weeks. Can I get some more time to work?" And he's like, "Yeah, check." But yeah, I mean it it Well, you know what it's like. You know what it was like for a SEAL rotation at the time. You know, you you went to 3:57:09 Iraq, right? There's not a lot of direct enemy contact >> and there's not a lot of killing most of the time. You're doing DAs, they don't want to fight. Do Do they get killed sometimes? Yes. But most of the time they don't really want to fight, so they surrender and you capture them. The capture kill part is mostly capture. For me, on my first one, it was almost all capture. Killed very few. Well, now you're in this zone where there's enemy that are, like I said, like a going to assault lick. They are maneuvering through the streets and we're in locations with tactical advantage that we selected with long axis down multiple roads, you're going to start killing a lot of enemy fighters. And it was abnormal. It 3:58:09 was abnormal. And so, you know, the the scrutiny came, but I welcomed it. It's no factor. You know, we had to we had to have guys sign a shooter statement for everybody that we killed. There was like a sworn shooter statement. And at first, guys like, you know, why we got to do this? It's like hey because in 5 years or 10 years or 15 years or 20 years someone's going to come back and say this person died here who did it and we'll say either oh yeah that was us cuz this is why or no that wasn't us. So I again h luckily for me that I had seen the the the officer side of things. I understood that >> and I was able to explain it to the guys explain it to the guys like hey there's a reason we're seeing this scrutiny. It's because we're killing a lot of bad guys and they the chain of command needs to make sure that we're doing the right thing for the right reasons. We are and 3:59:12 they see that and we got man we got such great support from the siege of Sodiff from my chain of command from the the special operations chain of command for sure like I said general brown came out and and by the way the the army in the Marine Corps was like epic. Um, you know, I had the colonel that was in charge, General Sean McFarland had him on my podcast and you know, like you can tell it was as good as it gets. And so, yeah, there's there's scrutiny because you're killing a lot of bad guys and there's also scrutiny because these are risky freaking operations. And, you know, a big one was going out in the daytime. Why would you give up the tactical advantage of going out at night, which we have because we got night vision, we got lasers, the whole nine yards. Why would we make that mistake? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. You know, there's a bunch of reasons. Number 4:00:12 one, our mission from the siege of Sodiff was to train and fight company and platoon sized elements of Iraqi soldiers. So that means we are supposed to train them and go and fight with them. company and platoon sized elements, not special mission units, not DA units, company and platoon sized elements of infantry soldiers. That's what we were supposed that's what our task was. We put together some scouts. We put together some some special mission units, but that was our task. They don't have night vision. They didn't even have flashlights. We used to give like a fire team of Iraqis a flashlight. So, for them to do a clearance operation at night was like just a non-starter. So, that means they're going to go out in the day. Well, since we're training and fighting them, guess who's out in the day? We are. So, now since I got my guys out in the field during the day, I want to protect them. So, what am I doing? Overwatch positions. What time is it? Daytime. And by the way, we killed 99% of the enemy was during the daytime because at 4:01:13 night time, the enemy came out a lot less. So that and again one of the one of the big mistakes that I made was I never really explained that outside of my chain of command like so to the teams at large most of the guys go what were we doing? Oh, here's what we're doing. They go, "Oh, cool, cool." Occasionally, you get a guy like that doesn't know what was happening, doesn't know how bad it was, couldn't conceive a reason to go out in the daytime or couldn't conceive how it's possible to kill that many enemy fighters, bro. [laughter] They are everywhere. [snorts] And so I should have done a better job of communicating that aspect of things, but I didn't really recognize it because my chain of command I they knew. And most of the, you know, the people that were around me that were actually talking to me, they they would be like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense. We get it." Include, like I said, including the 4:02:14 chain of command on both special operations side and the conventional side. But you're going into these areas and the Army's taking casualties, Marine Corps's taking casualties. And I I know that at some point we're going to take casualties and the we, you know, we like I said, we had a couple guys wounded. Cowi was wounded bad, but um on August 2nd, that's when uh Ryan Job got got wounded severely. and you know he was shot in the face and I know when you had when you had Leif on the podcast um Leif gave you a pretty detailed description [sighs] but you had you know a guy like Ryan Job who I I had his parents on my podcast just man you can't you can't even describe just what a 4:03:20 What a being of light, you know, just tough, funny, like we'll literally do anything for you. Just as good as they come. and he gets shot. Thankfully, he was had his weapon right up in his cheek well where he's supposed to have it, you know, 3 hours into a a clearance operation on a rooftop and he still is a disciplined machine gunner. He has his weapon up in his cheek well and he the single shot hits his rifle, hits his machine gun and hits him in the face and just dev devastating damage to his face and um [sighs] they you know they they kazak him and this kind of initiates uh one of the larger 4:04:25 battles in the battle of Ramati was was on August 2nd and Leif and his guys go back to Cop Falcon which is a combat outpost and we have a great relationship with the 137 and Leif great friends with their company commander Mike Ba and I'm great friends with Colonel Tedesco and now they're they're they're starting to take heavies out in the field. It's a big gunfight and Leif gets Ryan Kazak and it didn't look good. Um although he did stabilize but you know Leif did not think he was going to make it um for a bit and these guys are back there and uh the army our brothers in the army said hey we we're taking contact from some of these buildings. we think this is where 4:05:26 these insurgents are. Can you help us? And you know, Leif called me on the on the radio and he's like, "Hey, here's what's happening. Um, they the army needs our help. They want us to go hit some buildings." And I'm like, "You good?" He said, "I'm good." Like, execute. and they went out to hit those buildings and you know it's already uh like I said one of the biggest battles and you know Leif and Tony and you know Tony was the platoon chief down there and just no no hesitation from any of the boys roll out um they softened up the target with the Brads you know 25mm chain gun and [gasps and sighs] I think they went in the first building and cleared it. the second building they go into and they 4:06:27 take fire from an adjacent building and um Mark Mark Lee 4:06:40 who's another guy that's just all good like in his in his whole being in his soul he's good and he gets shot killed. And uh I was actually I was in the talk and I'm watching this happened. Watching this happen and I see I see them carrying on ISR. I see them carrying a guy out and uh one of the guys in the talk goes, "Maybe it's an Iraqi." And I actually knew that it wasn't because I knew that Leif didn't have any Iraqis with him. So I knew it was one of our guys. And Laith gets back to um Cop Falcon. He calls me up and and he told me what 4:07:42 happened. He said, "We have won KIA." And I said, "Who?" And he said, "Charlie 14. 4:08:01 I'm sorry, man. 4:08:11 So got their guys together, you know, and came back to base and um you know, I mentioned General Brown had came to visit. He came to visit on August 2nd just that was just when the scheduled visit was and he came to the flight line for the angel flight and earlier that morning, you know, the one of the marine elements that we work with from 38, there was a fourth platoon, I think it was Lima Company, and Tony and Leif and those guys had done a bunch of operations with them and gotten to know them and um their assistant platoon commander or their platoon commander. Um you know, he was kind of broing out friends with Tony because Tony's Tony, 4:09:12 you know, and uh you know, it's weird. I heard this story from both guys at a later time, but when Tony gets up there and he sees the platoon commander from fourth platoon and he's like, "Dang, they must have heard about Mark." And the platoon commander told me later that he saw Tony and he said, "Dang, they must have heard about Joe." Because that morning, uh, Joe Thompson from 38, he was killed. >> Wow. So SEALs, Marine, and Army, we stood there on that flight line and load those boys up to go home. 4:10:12 And um the war doesn't stop. And that is a that was a shortfall for the SEAL teams out of the '90s. You know, you think you do an operation and when you know when the operation's over, it's over. And if you lose a guy, well, it doesn't really I mean, it matters, but the the operation's over. But we never really thought about that. And guess what? The Army and the Marine Corps, they understood that. We had to learn that immediately. [sighs] >> How are you holding it together? >> I had to focus on the job. Um, you know, I had to focus on work. We did the memorial service. um 4:11:14 told some stories about Mark at the memorial service. He we we were in Vegas and he was like a maniac, dude. Just hilarious. He's gambling and um he would like I'd walk I'd walk through the casino and I'd see him gambling. He'd be like, "Hey sir, when are the new Cadillacs coming out? I'm winning big over here." like he was just that guy. And uh or if you're playing blackjack with him and the dealer would bust, you know, he'd yell out, "Everybody's a winner." And he'd get the whole casino saying that stuff. So, we got to tell some stories about Mark. Um, and then I also remember that day Seth, he had an operation planned on Eastern Romani. And this was like the day Mark got killed before the memorial service. And he and he sent me like a a Webby, which for 4:12:15 those of you who don't, it's like text messaging. He sends me Webbby. He's like, "Hey, we're we're not going to do this operation tonight." And I was like, "Hey, you're good to go, man. Like, I understand that. Like, chain of command. Don't worry. I got it. Like, you're clear to go." And he's like, he's like, "No, no, we're not going to do it." And I said, "No, no, you're clear. Like, you can do it." And he called me on the field phone. And he's like, "Hey, bro. I don't want to take the guys out right now." I was like, "Oh, got it." He's like, "Guys aren't in the mental state. We need 24 hours." But again, for for Seth Stone to be so in tune with his guys, recognizing like they're not in a good psychological position to go out, so he calls me up and tells me like it's a no-go. Like that's leadership. Um, and you know, it's just devastating, man. It's devastating because 4:13:15 again Mark, you know, we didn't we seemed like Ryan was going to live, you know, and we didn't really know he was going to be blind yet, but it seemed like he would live. And um but Mark, you know, this is again just a terrible, unescribable loss. And when you talk to the army guys too, it hit all them because we were we were [clears throat] getting after it, you know, and like I told you earlier, when when when something happened there on the radio, like everyone would kind of hear it. You might not hear it directly, but if you're in my platoon and you hear you'd hear reports and if I'm an army guy and you're my platoon sergeant and I hear, oh, we just got morted an hour ago and then I hear on my radio, hey, SEALs just took out or it's like TU Ram engaged three mortar men with mortar tubes with three rounds 4:14:15 of uh 7 300 win mag resulting in three EKA. Bro, I'm going right over I'm like, "Hey, the seals just whacked those dudes." And that happened a lot. And you know, we had been very lucky and we had been very lucky for months. And so talking to the army guys, you know, when when Mark got killed, it was like the invincibility was shattered. [sighs] But the war does continue. And so we stood down for like a day, then the did the memorial service the next day, and then we got our gear back on. [ __ ] man. As a leader, what do you say to your men for them to keep it together? 4:15:23 I told him the truth and that was that I did not know what to do except for one thing, work. And I knew that every day that we weren't doing our job, there was going to be soldiers and marines that were going to pay the price for it. And I knew 100% that what Mark would want us to do would go go and fight. And by the way, Mark's brother's a Marine. And by the way, Ryan Job's brother's a Marine. Like, you don't think that they want us to go out there and do everything we can? Cessone's brother in the army. Like, this is we we There was only one thing to do. Do I know? Did I know how to mourn? Did I know how to say the right thing about loss and death and life and all those things? No. I'll tell you what I told him exactly. I 4:16:23 don't know what to tell you. All I know is what I know how to do, and that's work. We're going to go back to work and we're going to take the fight to these mooj and we're going to kill as many of them as we can. With as much loss as you've experienced up to this day, would you have changed anything? Would you have told them anything different? Maybe, but I don't know that there's anything else to do in a situation like that. I could tell them what what we were talking about earlier like remember don't dwell and that kind of stuff but these are these are you know we we're all very focused at this time on what's happening ve very focused on what's happening and so I don't know what the broader you know 4:17:26 life impact of that you know could I say some philosophical thing I don't think So, man, I think I actually said the philosophical thing. We're going to get back to work. We're going to get our gear on. We're going to lock and load our weapons and we go do what we're supposed to do cuz we're Frogman. I can't think of anything better to say to be honest with you. >> Yeah, we're Frog Men. This is what we do. This is who we are. This is what every one of us signed up for. This is it. 4:18:23 >> Do you want to talk about Kowi? >> Well, Cowi, he was home, man. Kawi, you know, like I said earlier, he said, "Let me stay." And I was like, "Bro, go heal up." And you know, he wasn't going to heal up. Not in four more months or five more months. His his dude, he took a freaking armor-piercing round to the femur. There was chunks of leg gone. Like, it's a miracle that he kept his leg. Props to the the Charlie Med, the docs that worked on him and all the people at Walter Reed or wherever else Bethesda, like they kept his leg, man. But, you know, it was terrible for Cowi because then Cowi wasn't there, you know, and dude, he wanted to be there, you know, he wanted to be there. He would have given anything to be there. >> Yeah. 4:19:23 >> And and then, you know, you Leif Leif um just the same responsibility that [snorts] I talked about when it comes to taking ownership of thing. Well, there's Leif, man. And Leif is taking ownership of having one of his guys severely wounded and having one of them killed. And me, too. Like, this is us. I approved all these operations. I came up with this whole damn idea. And Leif called me, can we go? And I said yes. Leif came up with this idea and I said yes. And this is on us. That's the way it is, man. That's the burden of command. That's the way it is. And life was devastated. Of course, life was completely devastated. And you know when when when he talked to 4:20:25 me about it, you know, he said something along the lines of like, I don't know. I don't know if I made the right decision in going back out there. [snorts] 4:20:50 And I told him there was no decision to make. That's not a decision. There are army brothers that have gone out over and over again to pull us out of bad situations. And these fellow Americans are asking for our help. That is not a decision. That is what we do. That is what we do and we do it every time. You ever talk to Vietnam guys? Vietnam guys, if it was a platoon in trouble or a down pilot, they were going. Same thing with the Seawolf pilots, by the way. Seal platoon in trouble, they're going. That's what they're doing. And when our army brothers are asking us for help, we go. That's not a decision. That is duty. That is being a frog man. 4:21:52 And I also told him if we had a crystal ball and we could tell when something bad was going to happen, of course we wouldn't do that thing, whatever that thing was. But we don't have a crystal ball. And combat is inherently freaking dangerous. And I Leif understood that. Leif understood that. that didn't make it any easier for his soul, for his heart that was broken, but he understood. He understood that that's what Mark, you know, and I was talking to Mark's mom the other day. And Mark has had a huge impact now, America's Mighty Warriors, like is incredible organization that's helped out so many, not just SEALs, but other people. And she said, you know, she said, you know, if if I could talk to Mark and Mark had a chance to go back and not sacrifice his life on that day, but none of this other stuff would have happened. He wouldn't he wouldn't come back. 4:22:53 I'm like, I know. So, this is what we do. This is what we sign up for. And that's part of being a frog man. And look, we we had some, you know, we had the the 80s and the '9s and man, like there was nothing going on. And Mark was the first, you know, Mark was the first SEAL killed in Iraq. And again, you'd like, why? Well, look at the battle space, man. Look at the battle space. It was a complete war zone. Why did the 11 AD lose that many guys? Why did the first of the 506 lose that many guys? Why did the 137? Why did the 38 Marines like 4:23:55 just losses? Why? Well, it was a freaking war zone, man. And the war didn't stop. So, it was back to operations. And that's what we did. Got got our gear back on, locked and loaded our weapons, and and back to the field, back to conducting these operations. 4:24:32 you know, and as far as what what did we change? We we honestly there was after that one, it was like we were we were so used to the city, you know, my my first deployment to Iraq, we went all over the place. We went all the way from Najaf down south all the way to Hadith up north. We went east of Baghdad, west of Baghdad. We went out to Romani. I was all over the place this whole deployment. I only left Romani one time to like go to Balad for one meeting the first 3 days, 4 days of deployment and I was back in my mind the whole time. So we knew what was going on. And [snorts] so we continued to push and you know the guys, every one of those guys, night after night, day after day, jocked up getting in a Humvey, driving past the damn 4:25:34 vehicle graveyard that had 75 or 100red destroyed vehicles in it from IEDs. Out again. Out again. Out again. The Army, the Marine Corps, and us. It's the way it was. [ __ ] man. Jo, what was your What were you awarded the Silver Star for? >> Well, just this deployment. >> The whole deployment. >> Basically, this deployment. Yeah. >> How did the deployment end? Well, we were we continued to push operations. We continued to eliminate enemy fighters. We saw the beginning of the Anbar awakening, which was an incredible process that took place. And again, General McFarland and I talked about it for a long time on on 4:26:35 the podcast I did with him. But the local populace began to turn against the insurgents which was the goal. And as this happened, we started seeing, you know, intel would come in that there's enemy fighters in this area or there's a enemy fighter in this area, there's a group of IED makers over here. So convent, we started pushing, when I say we, like coalition forces, we started really pushing and taking it to the enemy. Um, we had one we we had started really pushing some good operations and eliminating a lot a lot of bad guys [sighs] and we were getting towards the end of deployment. Um, and you know, again, man, I'm talking about I'm just talking about this my guys, but there are so many stories, you know, 4:27:36 there was so much loss there and so much heroism there. You're hearing one person. And I've had a bunch of guys on my podcast that were everybody from brigade commander, company commanders, battalion commanders, and gunners and medics to tell their little tiny part of the story. Their little tiny part of the story, you know, um the brigade reconnaissance element. uh Dan Pinion. He was like the the sergeant major and like they had the heaviest casualties of any group, any company sized element. He had a he has a guy named Maris Quick that jumped on a grenade to save some of his other teammates and like it it kind of just happened and almost got overlooked and they're trying to get him the Medal of Honor now. But that's one that's a one and I didn't know about that. I didn't know about 4:28:38 that until he came on my podcast and told me about it and I didn't know about it. So my my point in saying all this man is I'm giving you like a little fraction of my view and I had 40 SEALs in Romani and I just want you and everybody to know that there was companies and platoon from the army and the Marine Corps that were out there all day every day and they were taking the fight to the enemy and they did an outstanding job and they suffered insane casualties. over and over and over again. And I've tried to tell as many people as I can about that. There's a reunion coming in Texas January 16th, 2026. The 20-year reunion of Rammani. Well, it's January 16th and 17th. But I hope that as many people that were there 4:29:38 can go to that. That is [ __ ] cool. >> Yes. And it's it's General McFarland is leading it. And there was just so much heroism in in that city. Um, and to be able to witness some of it with my guys and with other groups, it was just it was just it was it was it's it's amazing to look back on. um so much sacrifice and such, you know, such such incredible Americans. Um yeah, it's humbling to think about. And so as this deployment for us is now starting, we're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And one of the things that I I did on my last deployment, I I always figured I never would tell someone like, "Hey, this is the last op." Because I think that's like bad luck. I didn't want him 4:30:39 to freak out. I didn't mind bad luck, but I didn't want everyone else to feel bad luck. So, we were getting kind of towards the end of deployment and um [snorts] Seth, who you know is just um incredible and he's out there and he's in Corodoring his guys and they do uh an operation in support of the first of 506 who again can't say enough good stuff. Can't say enough good things about the first of the 506, their battalion commander, their company commanders, their company sergeants, their their e dogs. I mean, just just awesome. And and and I think part of this is when you get into like a real fight like this, dude. Everyone is just like wants to help out. And if you can help out, I I'm thankful. 4:31:40 and Seth and his guys had been out there with the first the 506 for pretty much the entire deployment for them. And um they planned an operation um set of two overwatch positions, mutually supporting Overwatch positions down in the Malab district, South Malab district. And Seth was in one Overwatch position and the other overwatch position got attacked. It got attacked. They were getting attacked through the morning, you know, like RPGs, small arms fire, things were starting to escalate and that somebody through dead space like got close enough to throw a grenade and threw a grenade and um Mikey Monsour who again just just as solid as they come, man. As solid as they come. He saw the grenade, 4:32:41 yelled out grenade. The way he was positioned on that rooftop, he was the one that could have gotten away from it. He could have left his guys exposed, but um instead he jumped on it. 4:33:02 Um the other guys were wounded bad though and called over to Seth and Seth um assembled his guys, left his Iraqis there, left their gear there, just brought their you know their primary kit, rolled over, fought their way to that position and then you know got that under control, organized and got them Kazak out and got back to base campore and then Seth had to take some of his guys that could still function mentally back to get the Iraqis and back to get the gear. So, you know, Seth just stepping up. Um, and it was the it was the battalion commander 4:34:05 He called me up and told me um hey he told cuz I could hear what was happening over the radio but once they were out of the field he called me and he said um he gave me a sit rep on on the guys. Um one guy was like pretty good to go. Two guys were wounded. um you know they were going to get they were going to get medevaced and uh he said he didn't think Mikey was going to make it. They said they were doing uh CPR on him and he didn't think he was going to make it and he was right. 4:34:58 So [snorts] it was um I mean immediately I immediately knew that that he had jumped on the grenade and uh I talked to the guys once I got to Germany, the guys that had been Kazak and they told me, you know, and they they were like sending me sketches of what happened immediately. And so it was like about as clear of a Medal of Honor action that you could you could think of. And luckily, like I said, for um for Dan Pinion and his guy Mark um Maris Quick, they were in the middle of deployment. You know, for me, we were almost done. So started putting started putting that award together and um >> did you write that award? Seth did and 4:36:00 he got the input from um Mike and Doug who were like and Benny who were the guys that were saved and uh yeah he he put it he started writing it and then I I mean I chopped it, edited it or whatever but yeah it you know, and talking to Mikey's sister, it's like I mean, many conversations over the years, but one of the things that always stuck with me was she was just like, it was not a surprise. Meaning like that's Mikey. This wasn't a surprise. You think he's going to what do you think he's going to do? Save his teammates or save himself? It's we we weren't surprised by it. >> It's [ __ ] incredible, man. >> Yep. I mean, the the families of those guys 4:37:02 just all just amazing people. And uh you know that maybe a day later, Seth had to come, he needed to come talk to me about something. And like I remember they it was to [clears throat] get down to get to from Camp Corodor to Camp Romani was down route Michigan which was like [snorts] not a good place to drive down. and he came to see me. And when he did the uh 4:37:49 the battalion commander sent us se sent him in a section of tanks 4:38:00 to make sure he'd be all right, you know. 4:38:14 And that's, you know, that's why that that bond with those guys is so strong. you know, the um just being in that battle space with those guys that what they would do for us was just so like you could just tell that they were they cared about us as much as we cared about them. And you know, they they put they put Mikey Monsour on the first of the 506 on their memorial wall. The guys that they lost, he's one of them. Wow. And now at this point in the platoon in the deployment, you know, we were that was September 29th and um we were kind of running low on guys, man. [sighs] But we we kept doing whatever we could 4:39:15 do. uh guys from team five showed up and man they were fired up man. And I remember telling those guys like to their task unit, their whole task unit, you will take casualties, which is a horrible thing to say. And I'm looking at them and it's like as you're looking at them, you're like, I don't know if they really believe me. And those guys, God bless them, man. They went to Mikey Monsour's funeral. They went to Mark Lee's funeral, but they had just gone to Mikey's funeral. They were showing up maybe a week or two later, like their advant 4:40:06 they were um they were they were fired up and we turned over the best we possibly could with those guys. and you you know so much and you you just can't like download enough information. I remember I was like I don't know maybe this before Mikey got killed but we were doing some big clearance operation and I'm like ended up in some rear security while we're doing clearance but we had done the clearance now we're moving back and I'm in this you know just like a nug because I'm out there but I'm out there kind of just to be out there. Um, you know, Leif and Tony have got it, but I'm watching as the platoon is like moving through the streets and you think freaking guys are good right now. Like it's it was a very awesome thing to be witnessed to. And the reputation, [clears throat] 4:41:07 you know, that we had earned was like I I could see it, I could feel it. The way the army treated us, the way the Marine Corps treated us, it was like it was awesome. >> It's [ __ ] incredible, man. Like, I'm I I have to say it is [ __ ] incredible. I mean, the deployment that you had, the losses that you took, the action that you saw, the lives that you guys took. I mean, it's a [ __ ] hard deployment. And [clears throat] I just want to commend you and and all of you guys, man. I mean, you know, from from an outsider looking in, you know, you see, especially nowadays, I mean, we were kind of talking about this this morning. I mean, you see a lot of you just see so much of [ __ ] animosity within the veteran community. It's a real [ __ ] shame. And um man like the tasking at Bruiser guys man I'm you guys are [ __ ] tight. M 4:42:09 >> I mean I I'm not aware of any you guys just seem really tight and um you know to have an employment like that with that that kinetic ex the loss that you guys have experienced and the respect you know that your guys have for you and that you have for them is truly [ __ ] unmatched. Yeah, it was a it was an honor and it was the boys, you know. Um >> I've never seen anything like it. >> When uh you asked me if I kind of knew what was happening in my first deployment, like I was in I was in Baghdad, we were doing DAS and I was like, "Yeah, I knew." And on this deployment, I really knew like every day I knew that every day this was um this was going to be this was the highlight of my life. This was the most thing. This was the most This was the highlight 4:43:10 of my life. I knew it every single day. I knew it every every time I went out, every time I saw the boys off, I knew that this was the most important thing I would do in my life was this. And you know, one thing that I leaned on because, you know, you you there's the whole political aspect of this thing of like, oh, why were we there? Um, what was it worth? All that kind of thing. And one of the things that the brigade commander said to me uh as I was leaving and you know he we had a 4-minute uh brigade meeting well of of a of a 30-minute brigade meeting. He spent 3 minutes talking to me and and and you know kind of saying hey this group of SEALs is leaving us the the Task Bruiser guys are gone. And you know, he presented me with this like wooden tank 4:44:10 that they had made, like a little cool little sculpture of a wooden tank, which by the way, the guy that was in charge of getting those tanks made was one of the brigade staff who was killed in combat. But he said uh 4:44:31 he said your guys kept hundreds of my soldiers and Marines alive. And when I got home and I talked to Mark's mom and I talked to Mikey's mom and talked to Ryan's mom, that's the one thing that I felt I could indisputably tell them about their sons. politics, Iraq, al-Qaeda, whatever, your sons made sure that hundreds of American soldiers and Marines were able to go home with their families. And by the way, those soldiers and Marines made sure that my SEALs were able to come home to their families because the Kazaks and the QRFs and the 4:45:35 fire support was all them every single time. And tanks, they lost nine main battle tanks. So you think you're doing okay? Like I'm happy they sent Seth Stone down to see me in a section of tanks, but we lost nine tanks when we were there. >> Yeah. >> And those guys sent those tanks out and those Bradley's out and those soldiers and marines over and over again to support my guys, Kazavac my guys, extract my guys, fire support for my guys over and over and over again. And the fact that we were able to repay that in some way, killing IED in places, killing mortmen, killing RPG and machine gunners enemy. It's it's at least I know that that's meaningful. I know it's meaningful. >> Mhm. 4:46:40 >> Thanks for sticking with me on that, man. You want to take a break? Sure, let's take a break. 4:47:06 [music] 4:47:17 >> [music] >> Heat. [music] 4:47:32 [music] Heat. >> [music] 4:47:47 [music] 4:47:57 >> Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> See you later. Saw this building. What do you think, Sean? We're high. [music] 4:48:33 It's not that impressive. I live here. [laughter] >> All right, Jaco, we're back from the break. Nice shoot, man. >> Oh, right on. >> Nice shooting. But um [clears throat] so we're wrapping up tasking a bruiser's deployment and um you know one thing that I one thing I wanted to ask is and I I think you know throughout the four or five hours I've been interviewing you I think I know but I'm curious what your perspective is. Why do you think that your men have such a deep respect for you as a leader? Yeah, it's what I said earlier. You know, I treated them with respect. I listened to what they had to say. I tr put my trust in them. And when you give those things to people, they give them back. No, it's not a guarantee. They could be a nefarious bad person, 4:49:35 you know, and that that happens. But those guys, they were just uh you know, it it's what the teams for me was always supposed to be and what it was. You know, that was that that was that is the teams to me when I think about the teams. best job ever, best guys ever. And and all [snorts] my platoon I had like just great people and yeah, I think, you know, kind of I everything for me was kind of a bonus. Like, you know, I enlisted in the Navy when I was 18 years old, you know, and now I'm an officer. I hadn't even been to college. Like, that's a pretty cool 4:50:36 bonus. And now I get to lead troops in combat. That's a pretty cool bonus. Now I'm in in Iraq. That's a bonus. And tasking a bruiser in a in an incredible war zone, it's just all a bonus. My point in saying all that was it wasn't like I was going to be admiral. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't I wasn't going to be admiral. Well, I mean I guess I could have been admiral, but I wasn't that wasn't my goal. That was never that was never really something I thought too much about. My career was really [gasps] about just being with the platoon >> about the [ __ ] job. >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> the same reason you joined. >> Yes. And I get it. You know, it's another thing. When I was when I was the admiral's aid, I saw what the admiral did, you know, and it was he had a great attitude about it. You know, on September 11th, I think he started his job in the Pentagon as an acquisitions 4:51:37 officer. And one thing he told me, he said, "When when September 11th happened, I check into my job as the acquisitions officer. last job in the world I wanted to do, you know, because he joined he probably got in the teams in 1976 or something. No Vietnam. I don't think he no Gulf War and now this big war starts and he's in the Pentagon doing acquisitions. And he said, "You know what, Joo?" I said, "This is my foxhole and I'm going to fight." And that's what he did. And I think that attitude, regardless of where you are, you know, sometimes I get people that were in the military and they they didn't deploy to combat and they're like borderline ashamed about it. And I'm like, "Hey man, you signed that dotted line and you did what your country needed you to do. So, you know, thank you for your service." But yeah, for me, I think that I I really just loved the teams and the teams, 4:52:40 man. Every day was was awesome. Why did you decide to separate? I mean, I think you you kind of just said it, but the reason I'm asking Jaco is, you know, to have um and I mean this in the best most respectable way, it is a real [ __ ] shame for the SEAL teams, for the Navy, for the United States to lose a leader like you. And so and you know there's a lot of frustrations I think you know there's a lot of there always has been there always will be right there's a lot of frustrations but especially especially in the last 8 years you know there's a lot of frustration um within you know the military ranks I hear it I'm sure you [ __ ] hear it all the time too and and you know it seems like the best leaders 4:53:42 in my opinion always wind up leaving early. >> It can definitely happen. I mean, we do have some amazing leaders in the SEAL teams. Um, but you know, for me personally, so I get done with that task unit comeback. Uh, the admiral who, you know, I had worked for was still in charge. And you know, he he he met me on the plane when we landed. And he told me later that he's like when he got on the plane, cuz he got on the plane, like the plane lands, he got on the plane, his family are outside. And he said when he saw me on the plane, he was like, "Oh, like uh-oh." Because, bro, we we were, you know, we were in the game. And you know, at a certain point, you you don't care about anything else, you know what I mean? And I was definitely at that point by a long shot. 4:54:42 And you know, of course, respectful to the admiral, said hi and thanks for coming and and I got off and I saw my family and he said, "When I saw your family, I was like, he's going to be fine." Um, and so he he also said, "Where do you what do you want to do?" Like it was awesome. Um, you know, and he when when Mark died, I talked to him. When Ryan was wounded, like he was he was just awesome supporting and again, my whole chain of command, you know, the Commodore, the admiral, my commanding officer, like everyone, the the senior enlisted guys, cuz I knew all the all the senior enlisted master chiefs as well, and everyone was just very very supportive. And so when I got done with that deployment, he um he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I knew where I wanted to go because Romani was not over yet. And it we saw like a glimpse of change, but they did 4:55:42 some of the heaviest fighting after we left. And so I knew cuz I had I was in training cell at SEAL team one. And when I was in training cell at Seal Team One, I learned so much. And it was so important. I realized how important it was to train. And then having my guys, Leif and Seth and the rest of the JL's and the E Dogs, like bringing them up in the teams. I knew that I needed to do that for more guys. And so I knew that the one place that I could do that was going to trade. And so I said to the boss, the admiral, I said, you know, I want to go to the trade at. And he said, cool. And he gave me orders to trade at. And when [snorts] I got there, it was exactly, you know, what I and what I knew it was. You know, I knew that we had guys and you know, we we got home October 21st or when we left Romani October 21st. The 4:56:44 guys from Team Five that are depicted in the movie Warfare that happened November 19th. So, you know, we had just left and those guys got blown up and >> yeah, Elliot and Joe, you know, got severely wounded which was horrible. But I knew that that's what I need to prepare guys for and I knew that there was no better place to do that than tradeet. And so that's what I did. I went to trade at and you know it really turned out to be even better than I thought it was going to be because now now I have so much context in my head about leadership about combat leadership about the big army the Marine Corps the Navy the battle space everything from CQC to reconsideration that we could do I kind of I felt pretty good about and so I went in there and started teaching, you know, started teaching leadership and started running training and it was it was awesome. It 4:57:47 was awesome to be a part of. It was awesome to Yeah. Awesome to be a part of. And it was it was a little weird, too. Um, like we'd be doing mount training, urban training, and I'd be watching and I'd see like some new guy standing in the middle of the street and I would get like a like a sick like knot in my stomach. And I would like go over to him and like, "Bro, get out of the street, man. You're going to get shot out here." And like I really >> [ __ ] man. Yeah, it was it was definitely, you know, it was it was perfect place for me to be because I cared about the guys more than anything and I just had a bunch of experience with this exact thing that everyone was going to do. So, you know, that's what I did. And when you asked me about why I why I ended up retiring. So I showed up there and I was probably at like 17 years or something like that and you know just okay this is 4:58:49 what we're doing next. Do this for a while and then I started there was one thing that I didn't like when I came home from deployment. When I was gone on that deployment to Ramani, when I left on my fir sorry, my first deployment to Iraq, when I left, my son couldn't crawl. When I got home, he could crawl and he could walk. So I was like, hm, that sucks in Ramani, which was And I also, you know, of course, you miss all the holidays, whatever. But then I when I got home from Ramani, he could swim. I remember asking my wife like, "Who taught him how to swim?" And she's like, "Oh, it was, you know, one of the lifeguards down at the base." And I'm like, "Dude, I'm a frog man and someone else taught my son how to swim. 4:59:50 That sucks." So that was like a little deposit in the back of my head and you know I was at trade and just you know you we're gone all the time at trade and as I started to and I got you know I I had the luckiest career ever. got um deep selected 04 like I very you know everything had always gone well for me in my Navy career from you know be being selected for the the seaman admiral program in the first place which was probably because I was sailor of the year at SEAL team one when I was in E5 like I'd been doing I was on a very good trajectory [sighs] but I also looked at it and I was like okay what's my next billet and and he started looking at the bullets and like there there weren't jobs that I was super excited to go do. Um, and then I was thinking, well, okay, what's after that job? And it turned out when I measured it out, I was about 7 5:00:51 years at that time from from being a like a SEAL team co. And now fast forward a little bit because I'd come home from Rambody the war so but now it had started to like draw down and I'm like man I could hold on for seven more years by that time I was like five more years and then what will I be doing? Okay but I love the teams but what about these people that live in your house? you know, who are these people that [laughter] live in your house and why don't they really know you? So, I just did the ran the numbers mentally on what that was and um I just decided I'd done 20 years. I'm going to go focus on my family. I 5:01:52 did not focus on my family when I was in the SEAL teams at all. >> [snorts] >> Um, the teams was I was married to the teams. I was married to the teams and and my wife and family came second. And that's not I think I needed to give something to them. Maybe if I'd been more balanced, you know, maybe I could have sorted it out, but I wasn't very balanced. I was in the teams and I love the teams and I feel felt like yeah if I can't give the teams everything then it's probably not going to be the best thing. >> Do you still battle with that decision? >> Yeah. Yeah, I do. I Yeah. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Oh yeah, man. When did you retire? >> 2010. >> [ __ ] >> 15 years. >> 15 years. You're still 5:02:53 >> battling that decision. >> Yep. >> Why? >> The teams gave me everything. >> You gave the teams everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing better than going to work in the teams. You know, you and I just got all giddy going out to dump some rounds out there. You know what I mean? [laughter] You and me were kind of like in a different like we were like a couple kids out there and you and I used to do that all day every day until we were sick of it. >> Yeah. >> You know, so [clears throat] uh Yeah. And it was hard cuz I, you know, I had to go tell my chain of command and and it was hard for me to go tell the admiral. Uh, go tell the Commodore then and then tell my teammates, you know, that that sucked [cough] because [clears throat] you're a quitter, you know, and I was 5:03:54 not a quitter and now I'm going to quit. When I left team one, you know, they used to say if you got out of the teams, you're a quitter, right? And and I said uh when I left team one I said because I was an enlisted guy and I was going to become an officer and I said hey the only thing worse than a quitter is a traitor and [laughter] I'm now going to the dark side you know but yeah quitting the teams was was uh bad but at the same time I you know I remember cleaned out my cage the last day and I had great you know I had great time at trade and you know it was that's when when Ryan Ryan and Job who had been wounded so bad he he died from uh complications from his medical stuff you know that was while I was at trade and you know again that was one of those things where it was really it almost like hooked me back in you know because just knowing that Ryan you know he's another guy like he was blind bro and I talked to him on the phone he's like can I come back he wants to come back to Ramati he can't see he 5:04:55 wants to come back to Romani like this is the kind of guy that I'm gonna abandon right now to get out of the Navy and do some other whatever like nothing else matters. So that was, you know, another thing that kind of almost hooked me. But again, I'd go home and see my see my kids, see my son. You know, you have a you know, three daughters and or Yeah, I had three daughters and one son at this point. You go home and see them and they're like, "What? What's your name again?" or "Who who are you again?" Like that is an equal thing. That's starting to pull. How old was your oldest? She was born in 1999. So she was 11. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And my youngest doesn't even like know. My son can remember cuz I would like he he was at he was on training trips as a young kid. As like a little kid. He 5:05:55 was hucking grenades [laughter] and shooting machine guns and paintballs and all that stuff. So he he remembers all that stuff. >> Did you have a tough time integrating in with your family? >> Not really. >> Did they have a tough time integrating with you? >> Not really. >> That's good. You don't hear that very often. >> Yeah. I always left my work at work. You know, I always tell like police officers and military people like, "Take your uniform off when you go home. Don't leave it on. take it off and put on a pair of, you know, for me it's flip-flop shirt, surf shorts, and a t-shirt and be in that mode as opposed to keeping your uniform on. So, I felt like it was pretty um Yeah. And another weird thing that always freaked out like Leif and Seth is I never swore in front of my family. Yeah. [snorts] I would and you know meanwhile in the teams you know every third word was an fbomb and I'd come home and just never swear because it's almost like I had a a you know like a mental deviation when I 5:06:55 went home and I was that guy and then at work I was the team guy >> and I wish I could do that. [laughter] Maybe I can try harder. But um I mean what did did you struggle with? Did you struggle with the transition? I mean, we both know a lot of guys struggle with the transition. Did you have any plan when you got out? >> I didn't didn't really have My plan was to surf, train jiu-jitsu, and hang out with my wife and kids. That was my plan. Uh, >> it's a good plan. >> And, you know, and then I I opened a jiu-jitsu gym, so I figured I'd be able to teach jiu-jitsu and hang out, surf with my kids, surf. And that's what my plan was. Probably about 6 months before I retired, I had a friend that owned a big company and he asked me to come and talk to his executive team about leadership. And I knew him from jiu-jitsu. I was like, "Yeah, cool." And I went up and I 5:07:58 gave a like the kind of leadership brief that I gave to the SEAL platoon. And and I think in his mind I was going to get up and be like, "Hey, you need to do push-ups or whatever." And all of a sudden, I'm talking about decentralized command and taking ownership and prioritize and executing all these things. And then they started Q&A and they started asking me about leadership and I'm answering all these questions. And by the time I got done, he's like, "I want you to talk to every division I have in my company." And I was like, "Well, I'm retiring." And you know, and he's like, "I'll pay you." And I was like, "Well," and he's like, "Oh, let's make a deal." I said, [laughter] "Okay." So I started going around talking to all of his divisions and at one of those divisional meetings his the CEO of the parent company was there and the guy came up to me afterwards and said I want you to come talk to all my CEOs and he owned like 45 or 50 companies at the time and I went and did that and then it just started happening and I eventually was getting like business you know and 5:08:59 uh Leif had gotten out of the ar the navy the army le had gotten out of the Navy and he was like kind of considering going to law school I think at the time and his wife was you know gainfully employed at Fox News and uh you know I was like hey man I need some fire support over here and he's like we want to do a leadership company and I I'd kind of talked about it with him before because when I started talking to these civilian companies I realized that everything I had learned about leadership applied to all leadership. It wasn't unique to combat. It was it was leadership was leadership. And once I realized that, I realized that I had something that would be useful for a lot of people. And so then, like I said, it just grew word of mouth. And from there, this kind of how all this stuff eventually happened because as Leif and I would talk to 5:09:59 different companies and they would come up afterwards and be like, "Hey, do you have this stuff written down anywhere? do you have a a pamphlet you can give us? And so we wrote it down and then I want I I think one of Leif's wife's friends or something was a literary agent was like this could be a book type thing. And so we wrote a book proposal and yeah uh the book agent shopped it around and one of the people I think the third fourth fourth or fifth person at St. Martin's Press was like we'll take it. And so we wrote the book and you know um the book came out and it was really did well. So >> yeah, it did. >> Yeah, [laughter] it did really [ __ ] well. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> man. And then I mean you've created I mean I think I counted seven businesses. I'm probably off, but am I off? Um, >> you got the podcast, Extreme Ownership, The Kids Book, which is going to be a movie, Origin, 5:11:01 >> Joo Fuel. >> [ __ ] what am I missing? >> Joo Publishing. >> Joo Publishing. >> Yeah, >> the soccer club. >> Yeah, >> jiu-jitsu gym. There's eight. >> That's true. >> Yeah, that's true. [clears throat] Guess there's something. >> You lost count. >> Yeah. Um, yeah. I I look at it and people ask me about this. So the podcast thing, you know, I went on Ro I went on Tim Ferrris's podcast and when we got done he said, "Hey, dude, you should start a podcast." And then I went on Joe Rogan heard that podcast and was like invited me on his podcast and this was 2015. Like podcasts weren't really a thing yet. >> Yeah. You're you're you are an OG podcast. >> Yeah. >> I mean [laughter] way before anybody even knew what the hell it was. >> Yeah. Uh I think I think the numbers at the time there was about 15% of the population of America was listening to podcast. I don't know if it's 100% now but it's pretty much everybody. But I went on Rogan in the middle of Rogan show. He's like you should start a podcast. Of course Rogan tells that to everybody but uh he told me that and I 5:12:03 said so I got Tim Ferrris and Joe Rogan like two massive podcasts are telling me I should start a podcast. So I talked to my buddy Eko Charles. I said do you know how to do this? And he said I'll figure it out. And then next day he came back and he's like, "All right, I know how to do this." And I said, "Cool." He said, "Can I be on it?" [laughter] And I said, "What are you going to do?" And he said, "You be Jo and I'll be normal." And I was like, "Okay, cool." And so [snorts] that's how the podcast started. And then once the podcast started, it was just, you know, people would ask me about like what kind of supplements I used. And I was like, "Well, here's what I would like to use, you know, and why don't I make what I like?" And then people would ask me about jiu-jitsu geese and my there was a company up in Maine, you know, uh, New England where I'm from, and this guy Pete was up there making jiu-jitsu geese, 100% America. And I was like, get those kind of geese because those are Americanmade. And I ended up linking up with him and Origin kind of took off and Jaco Fuel kind of took off and it was 5:13:05 just u Yeah. And then the kids books were somewhere in there, you know? I there's I went I was trying to get my son My son was not like a a reader, right? Was a little kid. So I I went to try and find him like something that he might be interested in, right? And I picked up this book and it was like a pirate book and I was like, "Cool." You know, pirates. What young boy isn't going to be into pirates? And I read this this book and it was the lamest, weakest, most pathetic pirates ever. [laughter] And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not going to read this to my son." And I just decided I'll write my own books for kids. And so, and the idea of the first Warrior Kid book was just like immediately in my mind. Uh, the whole thing, like start to finish, I had the whole thing in my mind almost immediately. And it's a real It seems obvious, right? Like there's a 5:14:07 kid, like all kids, who can't do any pull-ups, doesn't know his timetables, doesn't know how to swim, and he's getting picked on by the school bully, right? That's you go to anyone, any kid in the world, they've got a one of those problems or a problem like those problems. And so I put those problems in the book. And then I brought in a character, Uncle Jake, who's a seal, who is going to come stay with, you know, the family for the summer. And he's going to teach this kid how to fight, how to eat right, how to exercise, how to study, and how to swim. And that's the first book. And um it you know the feedback of all the you know of all the things that I'm currently doing >> getting feedback from like a 10-year-old kid that says writes me a letter and says I did my first pull-up or I got an A on this math test or I started training jiu-jitsu and I did my first 5:15:08 competition. Those are the most epic things to receive. >> I love that, man. >> Yeah. There's >> That's awesome. Yeah, there's not a lot of uh well there I should shouldn't say that there is a lot of guidance out there in the world right now, not a lot of it is good guidance, >> you know, and so the values that kids should be receiving, in many cases they're not receiving. So I tried to give it to them in a fun way. They're funny books, uh but they're powerful, too. >> When did the first one come out? I think it was two I think it was 2017 because I was almost done writing it as Extreme Ownership was coming out. >> Oh, good. That's pretty cool, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You're touching a lot of people. I know you know that. I would venture to guess that you it's hard to it's hard to 5:16:10 it's hard to grasp that and uh but you're a huge motivation for me and um I hear about you all the time and and it's man I just I just it's [ __ ] cool what you're doing. You're pumping a lot of good into the world. you're pumping a lot of what people need into the world, whether that's adults or children and and um man, there's just there's just um there's just that many great role models for young people to look up to these days and you're one of them and that's [ __ ] cool. Well, like I said, I had some great role models in in the teams. Um, and left me with some, you know, especially the guys that I lost. You know, those guys were just great great role models. And, you know, um, sometimes people ask like if having kids 5:17:10 made you more nervous about going to war, and for me it didn't. like I felt like happy that I had kids and uh Mikey and Mark, you know, they they didn't they didn't they didn't have kids, man. And uh it's, you know, it breaks my heart and and luckily Ryan, you know, Ryan before he died, he his wife got pregnant and that's just awesome to see. But, you know, passing on what example those guys were. And you know, the the character in this book right here, the Warrior Kid book, the main character is named Mark. [clears throat] And there's another book I wrote for kids called Mikey and the Dragons. And clearly the main carrier character in that book is named Mikey. And [snorts] so those guys doing doing my best to make sure that uh you know people remember them and and learn some of those things that represent their values of what they were like as people. So it's an honor to be able to share their memories and and make sure that 5:18:11 their their names are are never forgotten. >> And this is turning into a movie. >> Yes, it is. Yes, the movie has been filmed. Um, and it will be coming out next year. >> That's awesome. Congratulations. >> Yeah, it's was pretty pretty interesting experience to to see and a pretty awesome experience. >> Is it an animation or >> Nope, it's real people? >> No. Are you in it? >> I am in it. Y >> [ __ ] yeah, man. That's awesome. >> I'm in it, but I don't play Uncle Jake. Uh, Uncle Jake is played by Chris Pratt. So, and you know, Uncle Jake and Chris Pratt. Chris Pratt's just just such a such a great guy. Such Oh, he's a unbelievable guy. Just just >> the first time I met him, I was going to UFC with uh Jack Carr and some of the other actors from the Terminal List. It was like the promotion for the Terminal List. And I didn't know I didn't know uh Chris 5:19:13 Pratt at all, but I'm kind of like going and you know I'm like, "Oh, you know, I'm going to meet this Hollywood guy or whatever." And uh just super humble, super nice, super cool, self-deprecating humor, uh and super charismatic. Like there's a reason why that guy is who he is, you know, funny, charismatic, just cool. And so I was really really stoked. And what happened was he had we were we were kind of connected on through Jared who was training him to get him in shape for Terminal List. And while he was training him, he was giving him Jaco Fuel. And so [snorts] he really liked the taste of Jaco Fuel and how it impacted him, got him in shape for that movie. And then he also was like wearing Origin clothes because he's a patriotic guy. He wanted American made cuz now Origin makes jeans and t-shirts and hoodies and boots and we make everything. and he wanted to support America. And then he had a little break in between work movies and he was 5:20:13 talking to his business people and they're like, "Hey, uh, you know, you need to find some more sponsors and this kind of thing." And he goes, "You know, why am I out looking for sponsors when like I like Joo Fuel and I like Origin. Why don't I connect with Joo?" Cuz I he met me one, you know, I met that guy. He seemed nice enough or whatever. So he called me and he said, "Hey, man." and I was like in the mountains and he said, "Hey, do you want to do something with Jaco Fuel and Origin?" I'm like, "Hm, sure." You know, it's pretty awesome. And so we ended up connecting on that. And as our business teams were working through the business deal to kind of figure out what that looked like, I had been starting down the process of making the movie with a a guy from Hollywood who had walked into his kids' bedroom and his kids were doing push-ups. And he's like, "What are you what are you guys doing?" They're like, "We want to be warriors. We want to be warrior kids." He's like, "What are you talking about?" 5:21:13 >> [laughter] >> And he gave the kids gave gave their dad this guy Ben Everard the book and said like we want to be warrior kids like this guy. So he reads the book and he's like oh I got to get this turned into a movie. And so he friend of a friend of a friend searched me out came to my gym and I had been offered like to buy the movie rights to Warrior Kid I don't know like maybe four or five times but that's a real weird thing anyways. >> Mhm. But he came down to my gym and set up a meeting with me and said, "I want to talk to you about this." And he like got the vision, saw the vision. So he and I had been, we'd gotten the screenplay written from a uh screenplay writer named Will Staples. So we kind of started moving. Meanwhile, I'm talking to Chris Pratt about Origin and Joo Fuel, right? And Ben is like, "You [clears throat] got to get Chris this script." And I'm like, "Dude, I am not giving Chris the script." I'm like, I'm not doing that >> because he was like a friend, you know? I'm not like a I mean I at the time I 5:22:13 didn't know him that well, but he was a like a friend and [snorts] I just >> You didn't want to ask him for [ __ ] >> bro. I don't want to ask him. You know how many people these these >> Could you just Could you Yeah. >> Yeah. He kind of So, I just didn't I'm like I'm not giving it to him. Well, my business team had told his business team, "Yeah, well, you know, Jono's he's making this movie." And they're like, "Well, what movie is he making? Why don't we know about that?" Was making a kids movie, blah blah blah blah. And they're like, "Well, where's it at?" Well, he's got the screenplay. So, they give my business team gives his business team the screenplay. And they read it and they're like, "Okay, this is good." And they gave it to Chris's film manager and it's a woman named Julie. And I found this out later. They called Julie Dr. No because she says no to everything. [laughter] And so, but she got this script and she read it. And when I met her for the first time, the first time we the first 5:23:15 big meeting we had about trying to make this happen, she was in the in the room and she she met me. She was super cool. She's like, "My dad listens to your or my husband listens to your podcast. My kid listens to your podcast." Like she was she she knew kind of the background and uh she said, "I got done reading this script. I wiped the tears from my eyes and I sent it to Chris and said, "You better make this movie." >> No [ __ ] >> And then Chris said, he said, "Yeah, I read the script and I was like, okay, we're going to do this." And then I wish it was as easy as I just said it because then you know the cool thing is Chris and I shook hands. we're gonna do this. And that handshake encompassed Origin, encompassed Jaco Fuel, and it encompassed the movie. And two guys, we shook hands. >> And that handshake held the whole thing together because, >> bro, you get into this Hollywood and lawyers and ownership and it was crazy. But [snorts] that handshake and you know him being a good person and a man of his word and me being a my man of my word 5:24:15 and uh despite all the chaos we we got through and and now Chris is like a part owner of Jaco Fuel, a part owner of Origin USA and he plays Uncle Jake in the movie [snorts] Wave the Warrior Kid. >> That is awesome, man. >> Yeah, that's a hell of a story. >> Yeah, it's I can't wait for it to come out. >> When does it come out? >> Sometime next year. Okay. you know, it's it's weird, but the way they make movies um and the time it takes for them to then edit and assemble it and then the the uh advertisement of it, the marketing of it takes months and months. And so, you know, they want it to be released in a big season, you know, cuz they think it's going to be a big movie cuz it's it's I've seen like I've seen it, you know, not a fully edited version, but I've seen it and it's it it's awesome. It it is it is awesome. >> Congratulations. >> It'll make you laugh. It'll make you cry. It'll It's really powerful. 5:25:16 >> Very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> man. That's what I'm talking about, man. I mean, everybody I don't talk to anybody that's happy about what's going on in Hollywood, what's being pumped into the theaters, what's on Netflix, nobody. And so to see like something like that, you know what I mean, come out, that's like I mean that's a feat in itself, you know, and so and then and then, you know, congratulations. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was um you know, Sky Dance eventually came in. It's Sky Dance and Apple. And you're right, it's a movie that we haven't seen this type of movie in a long time. You know, the kind of movie that's going to, you know, leave that impact on on and it's I'm telling you, like everyone in the family, the parents will love it, the kids will love it. Yeah. It's >> old school family good entertainment. Yep. >> That you're probably going to learn something from. >> Yes, indeed. >> So, yeah, kudos [clears throat] to you. >> Let's talk about Origin. I mean, what's >> that's a [ __ ] awesome company. Yeah, it really is, man. It really is. And you 5:26:18 know, growing up in New England in the 70s and 80s, and this is when everything was being sold overseas. All the all the big corporations just took and gutted all the American factories, literally took the machines out of them and sold them overseas and started making stuff overseas so that they could make more money for the corporate headquarters. And it just gutted a lot of a lot of New England. It gutted a lot of the Southeast. you know, the big textile mills just got annihilated. And uh I mentioned this earlier, but when when I had the podcast and I was talking to people about jiu-jitsu a lot and people were asking where should where should I get a jiu-jitsu ghee and I had seen this company Origin, this guy Pete Roberts was up there and he was making these ghees in America, 100% in America. And so I started telling everyone, "Hey, if you got to get a ghee, get an Origin ghee." And I started trying to reach out to him to see if like I could meet him or find out what's going on. And I had never heard back from him and finally I was on a Facebook live one day and somebody asked me, 5:27:21 "Hey, what kind of ghee should I get?" And I said, "Yeah, get an origin ghee. Go to origin, I think it was origin at the time, origin.com." And those that guy makes stuff in America. I said, "By the way, if anyone here can find that guy, I think is I said his name is Pete. Tell him I want to talk to him." And uh a woman that was on that who I since got to know named Sarah like used her contacts and got in touch with him and said, "Hey, there's this guy Jo. He wants to talk to you. He's got a huge p podcast." And Pete says, "What's a podcast?" Cuz he's up in Maine. >> That's awesome. >> So eventually we link up and we have a conversation and I could see, you know, he's just a patriotic guy that's trying to rebuild manufacturing in America. I flew up to Maine. We same thing. As a matter of fact, we had a steak and we had a handshake and we we teamed up. And basically, you had he had this ability to manufacture and I had an ability to talk to people. And so those two things together were like a perfect storm. When we joined forces, I want to say there was like six 5:28:22 employees at Origin making it. It was something like a hundred garments a week. And right now we've got almost 500 employees and we make like 15,000 to 20,000 garments a week. >> Yeah. >> So it's a totally different ballgame. Um and it's awesome because you know we have we had lost the ability to manufacture in America and the corporations just lied because they'd say we can't do this in America. They would literally say we can't make this in America. We can't do that. This is America. Are you telling me we can't make things in America? Mhm. >> This is what this is how this is how we won wars. This is how we won World War II. We made stuff in America. So don't tell me we can't make a pair of jeans in America. Just like they've been saying for the past 10 years that we can't make any of these electronic components in America. Well, look who's coming back now, right? So it's [snorts] an awesome company. Got, you know, we're gonna 5:29:23 continue to grow. It's hard. It's very hard, especially because we're so strict about Americanmade. Mhm. >> So, you know, you got to get the cotton. Where's the cotton coming from? Where's literally everything >> the zipper, the boots, these these rivets, everything that the sole, everything, the thread is 100% made in America. >> And if we can't find a component that's made in America, we either make it ourselves or we'll find someone that we can convince to make it. >> Wow. >> You have to do, you have to hold the standard. And it's good to see other people are coming back to America now. Good. Good. Bring it back. This is what we should be doing. This is how we rebuild our country. This is how we rebuild America. And if we don't have the ability to make things, to be self-sufficient, we will lose. So, it's a huge part of it's a huge part of me of how I feel I can give back to what this country's given me. You definitely lead by example. That's for damn sure. You put your [ __ ] 5:30:24 mouth where your money is, and that's awesome. It's hard to find these days. Yeah. Well, I mean that's literally what you just said. We we put all of our money back into these businesses. All of it, you know, and now we have four factories. Like we we put all of it back in there and and we bet on it, you know? This is this is where we put our our soul is into these companies because [snorts] we believe in them and we're patriotic. We love America. We love the people we work with and this is what we have to do. >> Once again, congratulations. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then out of that spawned Jaco Fuel because, you know, one of the guys at Origin, Brian, he had worked in the supplement industry and he was like, "Hey, you know, we we can make supplements. We do jiu-jitsu." and they had like made some supplements before and do you how would you feel about making supplements? And I said, 5:31:25 uh, if we can make them good and healthy, yes, I look, I've been over I've been overseas drinking Red Bull and Reddit and Ripet and whatever freaking Tiger's blood they were giving us over there and that stuff's just not healthy, you know? And so I didn't and I, you know, we talk about people that we talk about like veterans, you know, you were mentioned veterans that are, you know, I know you had some friends that had some bad experiences with drug addiction, alcohol addiction. Bro, I have friends that were drinking five, six, seven, eight monsters a day. That's to that's that's horrible. >> Mhm. >> And so we started the the Jaco Fuel and, you know, we just kept things as clean as we possibly could. And you know, believe it or not, there's a market for it. Believe it or not, Americans want to be healthy. And we probably timed it very well because as CO came out and people got more concerned about their health, uh, people were paying attention. 5:32:26 >> Is that the latest flavor? >> That's one of the latest flavors. Yeah. >> I give it a Can I try it, dude? Yeah. Yeah. There you go, man. [clears throat] It's a little iced tea lemonade. >> Iced tea lemonade. 5:32:45 It's pretty damn good. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's uh no artificial sweeteners. We had to This is the extent that we go. So when you make a drink like this, you got to put preservatives in it so that it has shelf life. >> Well, those preservatives, as you might imagine, might not be too good for you. And I wanted to figure out a different way. And so Brian figured out a way to pasteurize it. In other words, you like basically cook it. So anything that could be in there that would interfere with it shelf life won't be in there anymore. It'll be dead. >> No [ __ ] >> And so we had to find a line. We had to wait like 9 months to get a company that, you know, bottles these or cans these to put a a line in to pasteurize them so that we could make them as healthy as possible. That's like what we're doing across the board. And [snorts] uh yeah, that's what we're doing, man. >> That's awesome, dude. [laughter] what you know we're kind of wrapping up the interview here Jaco but 5:33:48 you know originally I'd reached out to you several months ago and uh I had saw a a tweet that you put out on X about our mutual friend now Braxton McCoy about the the land grab and um you know like like I had mentioned we had never met but I've always been watching you from afar and that tweet basically all you said I think is pay attention to this guy. So, looked him up, paid attention to him, saw the the sale of public land, and I was like, "Fuck it. Let's bring him in here. Maybe we can have an impact on this." And, you know, collaboratively we did. They It got pulled. >> Yep. >> And um >> it's a huge deal, man. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for doing that. >> It's my pleasure. >> Yeah. And thanks to Braxton. [clears throat] >> What a good guy. Yep. >> What a dude. >> Yep. But [clears throat] um but you know I I just especially ever since co you know I think whatever everybody knows 5:34:48 you know things aren't things aren't going great and uh and you've you you just always a a voice of reason a stoic a voice of reason that makes a lot of sense and and so I just want to ask you you know what are what are what are some of the top things on your mind on what's going on in our country and and what are we doing wrong? What do we need to get back to? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of amplification of emotions and ego that happens through online platforms, so through social media, right? Um, [snorts] and when that happens, when you're not interacting with another human being, but you're interacting with a, you know, a fake human being or a bot or someone that you can't actually see or talk to, and someone that it's very easy for you to say, "Oh, this person's bad." or you 5:35:48 just ignore what their perspective is, which is what I talked about whatever how many hours ago we started this thing is understanding other people's perspectives and knowing that people see the world differently, man. Like, and there's a reason that someone sees it that way. And instead of just saying the way that they see the world is bad and the way I see the world is good or the way they see the world as wrong and the way I see the world is right, saying like, "Oh, it's interesting that they see the world that way. I wonder why." And as I've said this whole podcast, if you listen to what other people have to say, they're going to listen to you more. If you say, "Shut up, you're wrong." that they're never going to listen to a word that you have to say. >> But if you say, "Hey, what what what makes you think like that >> and [snorts] they explain it to you?" And instead of you trying to figure out why where they're wrong, try and figure out where they're right. And in most cases, in most cases, there'll be some kind of 5:36:50 common ground in most cases. Hey, are there some people that are just evil? Yeah, if you're ISIS or you're like a communist, it's probably going to be hard to find some common ground. But if you're in between those and I mean I've I mean I guess like I said, you can say ISIS, but most people if you say, "Oh, you got family? Do you want your kids to um have a nice place to live?" Almost all people will say, "Yeah." Almost all people will say, "Yeah, well, I want him to, you know, be healthy." So, at least we have that common ground now. So, if we if we look for that as opposed to looking for all the reasons why I should hate you and you should hate me, I just that's that's not beneficial. So, and I think social media amplifies a 5:37:50 lot of that. And also, social media is not real. Right. And so people will say our our country is so divided. Yeah. On Twitter it is. But I talk to people. I travel all the country. I have a leadership consulting business. I work with companies of every description. Energy companies with people out on oil rigs, construction companies, with people pouring concrete, finance companies in New York where they're doing deals for billions of dollars. every and everyone in between. And the vast majority of people that I meet are like, what are they focused on? Oh, yeah. They want to take care of their family. They want to do a little bit better at work. They want to make some more money. They want to be healthy. That like that's what people are doing. And it's very strange that we forget about that. And and as I travel around the country and I meet all these different people, I see people that they they have common goals. They have common goals. And if they have the same common 5:38:50 goal as me, how we get there, you know, we'll we'll try and figure out the best solution. And I don't see a lot of that. You know, if you say something that I disagree with, I hate you. >> Mhm. And that's that's [snorts] doesn't that doesn't bode well. But like I said, I think for the most part that's online. Now look, you can go show me we can go look at riots in the streets of people that are, you know, actively trying to hurt other people. Like, okay, yep, you're right. That's there there are people that are out there on the fringes for sure. But that's a small group. There's 350 million people in America. You want to show me a a a riot that has 3,000 people in it? Yeah, that's bad. But it's not America. >> Mhm. And so I would say open your eyes, open your ears, listen more, try and understand other people's perspectives, try and figure out where you can agree with them, 5:39:52 which can be difficult, but usually you can. And if you can listen to what they have to say and ask earnest questions about what they believe, a lot of times you can figure out, oh yeah, there's some common ground. I understand them a little bit better now. And maybe I can maybe I can move a little bit and maybe I can help them see something that I see cuz they actually want to hear my perspective. Now [snorts] barking at people and trying to shove your perspective down their throat might feel good at the time but it doesn't change any minds. So it's great perspective. Do you think this is happening because of the absence of the human connection because of social media? Social media certainly amplifies it, but also it's the way the algorithm is constructed. >> The algorithm is constructed. When I see 5:40:54 something that makes me emotional, I share it. So, your goal is to post something that makes me feel emotional. What's the easiest emotion to trigger in me? >> Anger. It's definitely anger because it's hard to pull at my heartstrings. You don't really know me. You don't know what like maybe if I had a dog that I lost, but you don't know that. Or maybe I had, you know, whatever something happened to me in my past and oh that thank you for sending me that. It's good. Makes me, you know, connect with these emotions. That's hard to do. But how hard is it to make me mad? It's not hard at all. You know, I'm a military guy. You can you can figure out 20 things out of the gate, right? going to figure 20 things out of the gate that can make me mad if I'm a normal person. If I'm a normal, you know, military person or if you if you're a nor what is it? You can tell me 15 things right now that will make a conservative mad and you can tell me 15 things that will make a liberal mad. And so if you want to get reactions, make people mad. And so 5:41:55 that's what the algorithm is set up for. And when you make me mad, I share it. If I have a strong opinion about it, I share it. And so that's the what the algorithm does. It just amplifies strong emotions. And strong emotions aren't a good way to make decisions. And the strong emotions become polarizing. And so when people are polarized, they're not listening anymore. And everything I just talked about goes out the window. There's been a lot of talk about I mean, I see it all over your comments section. And there's I mean there's [ __ ] hashtags about a jo. I mean do you do you see yourself ever getting involved in US politics? >> I certainly hope not. I don't I don't I don't really have any desire to do that. Uh, and I don't I think that I mean I think that I guess it just depends, you know, cuz every time you think that things will settle down, the pendulum will go swinging back in the other direction and 5:42:56 back in the other direction. So, I certainly hope not, man. I don't I don't like politics. I don't think I I don't think I would like to do that. >> I don't think you would like to do that at all, >> you know. But I think that's the problem >> is everybody that's in there that there's nothing else they'd rather be doing that's sitting on their [ __ ] ass in the floor of Congress or the Senate or higher. >> Yeah. Well, hopefully we get some of these term limits and things like that because career politicians are definitely uh problematic and but you know, who knows? That means they have to vote themselves out of a job. What are the chances of that? >> Slim to none. slim to none. But um you know, you got the Warrior Kids series movie coming out. The up andcoming Generation is Generation Z. They get a lot of [ __ ] You know, I'm What are you What are your thoughts on Gen Z? What do they need to be looking out for? What's your advice to them? 5:43:57 >> Yeah, I think when I look at I forget Gen It's actually I think Gen A Gen Alpha is now I want to say those are teenagers right now. Okay. It's like Zen Alpha, Gen Alpha, and then Gen Z is sort of above them, maybe 20s. You think that's right? >> I think Gen Z is they're they're entering the workforce and are already in the workforce. >> Yeah, man. Um, this is America and you can do you can you can you do anything you want? Nope. No, you can't do anything you want, but you you have a lot of opportunity in this country. You I was talking to a kid the other day and I was just like, man, he he's uh in the fire department and you know, like there's a salary cap in the fire department, right? And I [snorts] said, "Hey, man, like save your money. Figure out something else you can do. You in the fire department, you got time to do other things. What do you do in 5:44:57 your spare time?" Uh right there. I already know you're not doing much. So, what can you do? And I kind of said, you know, like we're we're at my gym and I said, look, you see all this? I go, all this was just like an idea at some point. Just a little tiny idea with no true value whatsoever. Nothing. And here you are in a gym. And that's the same for everything that that I have in my life. Everything was just like nothing. But if you you apply it and you execute on it now all of a sudden they start to grow value. And so you know it's it's always surprising to me that the opportunity that we have in this country. So are you going to get it given to you? No. Is it going to take hard work? Yes. Will you have setbacks? Yes you will. Yes you will. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. Like this is what uh here's a gen alpha tour term lore. 5:45:59 >> You heard this lore. >> So like creating lore. >> So you're if you look at when you have problems, >> those problems are how you create lore about what you did with your life. The kind of thing you can tell your grandkids, the kind of things you can tell your kids. Hey, this is what happened. Oh yeah. I remember I remember when I had my wife and my four kids in a 934 square foot house. That's lore, man. My kids are kind of fired up for that. Like there was two girls sharing a bedroom. I took the converted garage and split it in half. One for my son and one for my youngest daughter. That's that's what we're doing. That's cool. At the time, would I have rather had, you know, some mansion? Sure. But that wouldn't have got me no lore. So when you go through challenges, you face things in life, look at as an opportunity to make some lore for your existence. It's going to be a struggle. But with America, if you work hard, you will be rewarded 5:47:04 and you're going to look, it's not like a guarantee, but if you work hard, you you have to make sure you're playing the right game, too. So, I had this conversation with a guy, actually, two guys consecutively a few years ago, and they were both hard workers in two totally separate industries. Two hard workers working very hard and not able to get to where they wanted to go and they're putting in, you know, 50 hour week, 60 hour week, 70 hour weeks, like really getting after it. And I said, "Hey, listen. If that's what's happening, you got to check what game you're playing. Because if you put a lot of effort, the the example I used was soccer and basketball. If you put a lot of effort into basketball, how many points can you score in a game? 30, 40, 50. You get 50 points in one game as an individual player. If you're playing soccer, how many points can you get in a game? Maybe one or two. So if you realize that you're not 5:48:05 getting the points that you want to get, you might have to say, I I need to get into a different game. So you have to be smart. Hard work isn't rewarded solo. You have to also, you know, detach, look around and say like, okay, is this game that I'm playing the right game to get where I want to go? So you have to keep that in mind, too. But this is America. If you play the game and you play the right game and you play it hard, you're going to end up in a good spot, which is all we could ever ask for. Another great point. Another great point. Last question. If you had three guests to recommend for the show, who would they be? >> I would say first, I'll give you the easy shot. Uh JP Dell next. I'll go Debbie Lee. 5:49:06 And then I'll go Johnny Clark. >> Johnny Clark >> who was a Marine in Vietnam and he was a grunt. and you know our our our special operations guys uh get a lot of credit welld deserved but sometimes often times and I tried to give as much credit as I could today to our conventional uh army and marine corps brothers and sisters that fought but it's they don't often get the credit that they deserve and Johnny Clark wrote a book called Guns Up in when he got back from Vietnam. And he got wounded three times. The third time he got wounded, when he finally got pulled out, he had lost like 40 lbs, 35 or 40 lbs patrolling in the 5:50:07 jungle. >> Damn. >> For 14 days, 17 days, 20 days at a time. And he just he's an incredible guy. It's a legendary book in the Marine Corps. You know, I I got to shout out guns up. I did that that event for the Marine Corps birthday up in Camp Pendleton and uh I was able to get a guns up. See, happy birthday. Seerfy, guns up. But Johnny Clark, just an amazing guy and has had a really incredible voyage in his life that I I think would uh [snorts] I think everyone would be blessed to be able to hear his story. And I think that it would give a lot of people credit. You know, we we've uh I had the honor of bringing the so a lot of the SOG guys into the forefront for the things that they did in Vietnam and most certainly, you know, the most epic guys, 5:51:08 [snorts] but uh I always want to remember these these grunts, the infantry men. >> Thank you for saying that. And and by the way, you did a a fantastic job giving those guys credit. I I talk about the exact same thing on here a lot about those guys never get the credit they deserve. You talk a lot about special operations nonprofits and it's like, "Yeah, great. We got another one. We don't [ __ ] need anymore. These guys need them." Y, >> you know, and and um so it's pretty [ __ ] cool you're doing that. and and uh that that actually is a segment that I planned on covering but it slipped my mind is the SOG guys. I mean, I started interviewing this year um couple of Vietnam guys and got inspired from what you and John Striker Meyer are doing over there and and um and you know and and and for me I mean those guys that is that is the generation that motivated me that 5:52:09 made me want to want to serve the country go to war and ultimately you know become a SEAL and uh was man those guys are [ __ ] something, aren't they? >> Yeah. As I've told John Striker Meyer and I've told the rest of them, like as a as a task unit commander, I wouldn't approved it. I wouldn't have approved any of those missions. [laughter] I was like, yo, you're going out where? Wait, across enemy lines, you got three Americans and four Vietnamese, and you're going out there into wherever with no ground support. you sure about that? But uh those guys were in a different a different breed and God bless them all, man. They were just just epic. >> And like I said, the the infantry grunts in in Vietnam, uh they were what they suffered through. And you know, it's a small percentage of them, right? Just like just like any of these wars, 5:53:09 there's a small percentage of people that fight them. There's a lot of people in the military. There's a small percentage of people that that fight those wars. and the grunts in in Vietnam. You know, even Hackworth Hackworth who was in he was at the end of World War II. He didn't really fight in World War II, but he was there for the end of it, Korea, like fullon in Korea and Vietnam. And he was said that the Vietnam soldiers had the worst conditions, which is coming from a guy that was speaking from a place where he could make a statement like that. So, the grunts from Vietnam, Johnny Clark, guns up. Yeah, if you could I'm sure he'd be uh honored to come on here and share his story of of his life, which is like I said, it's an epic story. >> Right on. We'll reach out. Well, Jaco, thank you again for being here, man. And and um like I said, man, it it thank you for for taking that trip with me today. I know that was really [ __ ] tough. Um, but you know, at the beginning of this, we prayed uh that this would reach 5:54:10 the right people and that this interview would would touch a lot of people and it's going to, man, and um you're just a hell of a guy. >> Well, uh, super thankful that we connected. >> It's an honor to get to be able to share these guys stories, you know, again, not just my guys, but the the the whole team that was there. And you know, again, I talked about me talking about these little fractions of guys, small group in in Rammani that was my guys, and there was all kinds of those guys, but man, you talk about there was guys all over Iraq. There was guys all over Afghanistan that were in terrible situations, suffered through so much. And they they sacrificed for what we have and what we're we have the opportunity. And that opportunity is based on the sacrifices that these men and women have made. And you know, you asked me right right before a break or right right as we took a break, you were like, "You okay?" And I said, "Yeah." 5:55:13 And I did a podcast with a guy named Tom Fe. And Tom Fe was in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he got a Purple Heart in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And I was talking to him and we talked about World War II and he got commissioned for Korea and by the [snorts] time he was in Vietnam he was a battalion commander and we were [clears throat] talking through the different types of missions and all good and um we got I I just was curious about you know what what the operations were like and I ended up saying you know well how many casualties did you take as a battalion commander and he got choked up. And I was sitting there watching him get choked up and I was like, "Oh, this is 50 years ago." And he's getting choked up thinking about his guys. 5:56:15 And that was a moment for me that I realized that's okay. And I think we've been told that there's something wrong with us, but there's not. Like, you get sad when you think about your friends. It's okay. You get a tear in your eye when you hear the national anthem. It's all right, man. And you sometimes spend a little too much time thinking about something that you went through. It's okay. And I think it's important for us, our generation of veterans, to recognize you went through some tough stuff. Think about it sometimes. It's hard and that's okay, man. That's okay. >> Thank you. >> Thanks [clears throat] for having me, man. Appreciate it. >> God bless you, man. >> Back at you. >> Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks. Appreciate it. 5:57:17 >> [music] 5:57:26 >> No matter where you're watching Shan Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review on Apple and Spotify podcasts.