0:02 you have to go to an airport in a Burger Shop season in India both harvesting post harvesting marriage starts because that's the resource for them so people are just discovering something and say hey this looks cool I want to buy this what are you saying in summary like if I'm building a product for today what is that inside I have seen children of uh aband and family doing phenomenally well and building new categories and new products the first thing we were talking about before you arrived is are the products from your e-commerce company as late as you arve 0:46 like we're kidding you won't put this part in the podcast that's why he he saying that he's late because he was managing on time so hi guys welcome everyone to episode three uh I think to begin maybe we can all like speak about what we do in one minute and uh since we all know each other already uh we can intersect and we can say different things we know about each other the idea is just to get everybody to know who we are so let's start with vidit hey I'm vidit atre I run misho misho is not like that not what you give in college interviews and stuff like that what do you say then you have uh I'm withit I was born here I was this kind of a child that's exactly what the college interview is know at this age oh so I have to give something 1:48 different right basically you have to say the absolute blatant truth you're saying that anybody will find about your like who you are R something which is not on yeah yeah that's a good point so I hey I'm with I grew up in Delhi in that part of Delhi that people don't know as much which is rohini I was born in mer so my entire family comes from mer and haur so I was the first engineer in my entire family right so it's a what was everyone else doing farming so my both my mom and dad side like everyone like all my cousins most of them still do farming and so it was a very different upbringing when I was growing up my dad used to tell me there only two kinds of professions professions one someone who does a government job or second who sits on theun Duan so if you don't want to sit in aun Duan you better study and K shop so if you don't want to sit there you better study and become an is Officer some days so all my life I was like told this and I used to believe it 2:50 for a very long time and and I grew up went to it Delhi all of that when I went there realized the world is not bipolar only two professions and there a lot more other things you can do and that's when I changed um after college went to um went to ITC know operations heavy role very different and from Delhi to Chennai and I went into a factory where the where everyone in the factory used to speak only one language which was Tamil and I used to I used to go every day in the office there used to be a morning standup meeting which was about an hour in Tamil and I'm standing there like everyone everyone knows English I'm saying why don't we speak English because we are in Chennai so we have to speak in t so I used to stand there and have no idea what's happening but I was forced to kind of pick up some bit I I would still say like the first two years of my career it was very interesting 3:51 because I was put into the most uncomfortable parts right like you sitting in Delhi you can do all the nice stuff like you can do good analysis you understand Excel but like managing a lot of people going to a place where you're uncomfortable or everything language food over time figuring out your way around this I think it was it was pretty cool if I look back at that point time got connected to a friend who was in Bangalore Bangalore was coming up like your flip carts and your in movies of the world so moved here and eventually in 2015 same college now yeah yeah same college but like I think the which year passed out to 2012 yeah is like 9 years yeah it's much much later so yeah so I think then I come to came to Bangalore and like everyone else got bitten by the entrepreneurial bug because there was so much to do and we started Mish show back in 2015 um so now coming to like what we do 4:51 at Mish show and why did we even pick what we are doing so we started in 2015 and doing this because we realized that e-commerce was coming up and everyone was talking about hey why how all of this is moving online but e-commerce at that point in time was mostly smartphones and wi good selling online right like which was not India retail to some extent small businesses are a very core part of India retail was still primarily offline and 85% of India retail happens via a lot of these longtail unbranded small businesses so we said we'll bring them online if someone asked me how I had no idea but we said we will bring them online and that's when we started Mish show so yeah we will complete 8 years been a very very interesting Journey um now we have close to 140 million consumers who buy from us annually across all kinds of categories from about a million small businesses so that's all super so uh I think Mr Kishore bani 5:53 everybody knows uh broadly you're an icon of selling both online and offline and I think each one of us growing up in one way or another has some way or in one way or another experienced one product that you might have made or another uh so maybe uh even though we have seen you we don't know so much about your childhood where you were born uh I've met your family I've come to your house I've met your daughters and stuff like that but uh maybe you can give us a minute or two yeah so I'm Kish bani formed lot of consumer businesses called our group The Future group and I was born in Bombay born and brought up in Bombay studied the commerce was interested in marketing so used to follow most of the advertising that used to happen then and 6:54 then build my own brand of trousers to start with started with Fabric business how did you first think of the trouser brand I think uh that was way back in which year I would say 91 or something it I was supplying garments I was supplying fabric to the Garment industry that time the brands were chagin double bu they were very different brands then what year was this this must be 87 and people were just moving into from tailor made to rade viit was not even born and yeah I feel OD one out here in terms of seniority he's he's halfway there I'm little bit lower he's UPS a different world I was born to a very conservative family we come from Rajasthan family was very religious Pious I was an atheist always what do you call I was known as the blackship of the family and uh contrarian thoughts on 7:56 everything in life and so I thought I'll not join the family business we had a small wholesale fabric trading business that time so when I joined when I when I just graduated I I did some course in marketing I did my I did my CA entrance I never I I think in five years of college I went to attend the class only once one class attended in five years you think there is some kind of a correlation between rebellious kids or kids who have grown up with more insecurity than usual to how well they do later in life do you think more rebellious insecure end up doing better I I believe that uh today my children are born in abundance and to more democratic parents I was not born to democratic parents and we were born in a shortage era so I think shortages or less availability doeses definitely makes you work harder and make you 8:57 expand your mind and thoughts so I think abundance can create something else but what we got was not abundance in any which way he also doesn't come from abundance in a way I don't and by the way I to some extent I agree with what you were just asking I believe like I come from a family or I would say even when I was growing up I was compliant child right so whatever my parents tell me I do it until I come to college and suddenly I have an independent bent of mind and now I question everything so until then I would say like my parents would make me do that Puja every day and I an ath since college right so everything changed because until then right like I only saw a very small part of the world and I thought this is right and wrong and everything is very black and white and as you get exposed to more and more stuff then some people are okay and you can say rebellious I call it independent but I feel it happens and it's definitely one input to doing something crazy right because if you do something 9:58 which is by the book it's very hard for you to challenge what has been happening for years but only one thing I I OB as a common like he passed out in 2012 and you are somewhere in 80s but still the the feeling of like I have grown in such a constraint disciplined family because how I see and that might be that not the truth but uh childr of these day we say that no they have a lot to a lot might be you have the same feeling hey 2012 kid is have lots of access of information infrastructure better College better education but the feeling is similar and that doesn't matter like my grand grandfather was always saying that when I was educ I was studying I was crossing River walking this much kilometer and things like that and when you were studying was saying that you guys have everything and we believe no no this is also tough so I think that feeling is 10:59 very common doesn't but do you think that is true then like say my parents my mom was a music teacher and my dad was a bank employee but do you think people who grew up in middle class upbringing like myself or under feel more insecure about things like money uh things like having the freedom that can be associated with money and hence they overcompensate when they grow older I I think Money Matters a bit lesser here like I it's OB viously when I was growing up coming from a lower middle class family like if it's a very top of Mind thing to solve but I don't think that leads to it like very hard for me to attribute to it right I think you'll go by data it's very hard might be if I we can share our perspective from the rebellious point of view but I think that's not true I think it's was very regimental in nature when you middle class say you have to study there's only one way you have to get a get into like some job nice job otherwise your marriage will not have 12:00 things like that I think those are the main issue might be for us it was never that issue and that's why you can see but by data I'll tell you we all invest in startups right like each one of us uh I didn't realize this for a long time but very organically you at least we formed a filter by V I mean different funds I'm a part of that if somebody was a very entitled guy if somebody was the son or a daughter of a very rich man you would have this uh thing in your subconscious which would make you vary of investing in that startup same I heard the same thing it's not true in that way I believe it's a nature of a but they can excel in something else which nobody else can do some categories they can Excel much much better so I we have dwelt a lot into understanding this but I think uh abundance creat something else and shortages creat something else but rebelliousness definitely creat something without being a rebel uh you 13:00 can't because as a rebellion you like to destroy something and create something no I got into I created uh I went into business created a fabric which became quite popular it was called ston wash at that time then denim as a fabric came in how did you create this fabric like I think uh I think there was a fashion which was going along and uh I was uh I did some course in bing and I was very interested in textile fabric as such so so how old were you when you were doing this course 21 to was it a thing back then to do a course in weaving and try to make a I was trying to do everything I was not a great student or had inclination towards studies my parents never knew whether I passed or failed also so so we were we were a joint family we were 13 of us in our age group my father was six brothers and if we all came and didn't one of them didn't sleep also nobody would notice so we lived very very differently then so I think uh so idea was to create something and it 14:03 started with creating that fabric supplying to the Garment industry building denims then building your own brand and then it kept on going on and on so in terms of creation I it became like building Brands building retail formats then getting into nbfc logistic business insurance so multiple things and then investing into a lot of entrepreneurs right when was that moment when you really scaled like when you guys became really big cuz I remember growing up like your Brands were everywhere and everyone of us knew you you were on the cover of magazines like you were talking about that book now there were like one book it was kind of Bible at that time so to study the retail I think if you look at uh if I look back because I'm in a different state of mind or in terms of business at the moment so I've done it might appear that I've done what people do in three generation I created and I destroyed everything so creation and destruction and maybe if there is a 15:03 chance to create something more but uh but it was a process which was fantastic because first was destroying your old thoughts destroying your parents thoughts creating something out of that and then destroying your thoughts again and again because we went into luxury and we went into masses we went to the lowest end of the population with a store format called Adar which is below 50,000 population and we dealt with the highest by creating something called Food Hall and in terms of departmental store Central to Brand Factory so we catered to lot of audiences and there was a lot of learning from a like Hindustan liver at that point of Time how do you create brands at every segment of the population so I think branding was something which interested us and me so we lettered many brands in the retail formats and so it was a journey I would say 30 years we compounded at 30% so it was Ser for 30 years we did grow 16:03 every year and uh so but now it's a different Journey so another experience you have become more philosophical than right doing anything it's an incredible journey and out of all the things you could have done like why like big big Bazar and future group like why how did you arrive at this is the thing this is my calling was it just weaving thing which led to this i u before creating big Bazar I had a format with in mind that uh we'll create a Marketplace for Brands so Central was originally conceptualized much before big Bazar for me but then big Bazar came around uh I I started visiting uh the bazars and the hearts which used to happen in small towns so people used to take the markets so we thought why can't we create markets with that hustle and Buel in a city I had not seen Walmart then I had not seen any other retail format so we thought let's this and uh so then the idea was to build scale to we opened three stores in 22 days so that we could 17:05 build some volumes and some scale so it was a market hustle bule we thought there should be a butt and brush effect people should meet each other people should there should be crowd because crowd can only get crowd so it was a it was a different experience then but we must say that sir uh in this country somebody who has thought of organizing retail and started at that scale and people started believing because because your your format was started working I think several format and come destroyed will come again futuristic and all but you have given that Genesis or retail can be organized like the kids say today he's like the OG of Commerce I call it father of a father of organizing retail I think 100% I think we have learned so much directly indect have somebody becomes a to do that so I think we got we have we have done that for retail for we got that opportunity to do it and I think once you start looking at from consumer lens you can create something much much more because 18:07 you are looking at the consumer and creat something not looking at yourself and creating something so we created that consumer understanding trying to we as a group we have a organization which is called future Brands wherein we from the last 15 years every 6 months we do a bat Daran and we record every societal change happening in the country that's very important record every lyrics written in the country anything which becomes popular we make it a point so like when we used to get huge crowds in big Bazar stores we went to Tupa Temple to understand how to manage crowds so India is a fascinating country like release this and what did you learn from tirupati tirupati unbelievable management crazy how to manage crowd was something how do you create that uh make people stand in the queue give them water give them everything make them patient and so you you learn from everywhere everywhere India has all the experiences which you can experience and learn from 19:08 Wow learning theti to retail huh have been the title of the book my first retail store experience where we got inspired was s stores in Chennai where they sell idly and everything they used to sell one single place s ban right s stores stores because stores they used to sell utensils the most I was thinking of s that is a food that's a food thing but his store is huge huge appliances everything this yeah everything so big b was in fact conceptualized from inspiration of sa more than anything else yeah like everybody so I have to like preface this for context me and sujit hang out a lot like we were together yesterday we traveled together uh if he was not married people would have the wrong idea but we end up spending I think we travel at least once in two three months 20:08 somewhere together yes I think last one year we okay so I know him very well yeah but let let me say uh where I come from yeah like vidit was saying that I'm from mer so I come from a place called bhabua in Bihar it's a very small uh town I've grown up there studied there till 12 in Hindi medium from Bihar board and I don't know how I have gone to it because I came to know about I only in people get a 12th we call it intermediate yeah so it was a part of college at the time when after 10th you go to college and it's not 10 plus two it's a intermediate then ba BC whatever so I have from Hindi medium converted to English just for exam uh somehow landed in it Delhi I never planned to go to it Delhi I wanted to be in itbu 21:09 because I will be the king of that campus something happened I landed inhi and that was my first big city and I have exposed to like okay school 21:37 [Laughter] or is so landed in the same thing happened to me also I so many things I never saw even like I had a smaller school I would say until 12th when I came I have no idea right you have all kinds of sports you have all kinds of extra colleas to do so you get exposed to this right after college or right after school people go crazy so I can totally connect with this feeling so India people play cricket bmon and you not believe even bards and all I was spending so much of time by second or third year I was in the insute so even I was playing blyard pool so like like I said still got good marks 22:39 in ID no that's but at that time in Y2K we were passing in 2003 or 2001 2002 the whole job scenario was so bad campus computer science otherwise people go out all thees come to campus they take those first like electricals computer all these and then rankwise and even like even you are last from the bottom you you'll get some job and it was a kind of and then I had somewhere I thought and I 23:39 remember it's a calling for is I wanted to be become a upsc then you have to take some optional subject like history public ad geography you have to study all the general uh uh uh knowledge and then you have to core subject subject like physics math as a science boy you can choose one otherwise you can choose any subject then I spend almost six months there and then decided and this is not my interest somehow um I decided to join some small farm where I can learn some of the friends I connected me to uh some person he has agreed to take me as a co-founder at that time kpo in 20 talking about 2004 2005 so we started a kpo taking a project delivering the project we were like 25 26 people and doing that for almost like d 24:40 all and in 2008 recession came no project no money and Sachin Sachin in 2007 U he was my one year Junior in I in same host [Laughter] I was in love with that I was settled there um then he he I think he got married early in 2008 he called me for his marriage and then and we decided to close because we your dentist yes so uh was 20 25:42 then I I came in 2008 I was not able to imagine because he was was very silent [Laughter] was 26:13 years because all the suppliers of books at that time were Delhi and they were not their presence in Delhi was not there and somehow like it has I like the uh I like the business model and then decided to again went back to Delhi because I have to so I was taking care of all the business supply operation then I went back to Delhi solving those 26:48 problem I think at that time we were inspired by your journey and then we were that's where I saying that we are studying your books also [Laughter] and then I I I finished that book and flip cart started 2008 uh so it started in October 2007 um I joined in 2008 but I like look something when I went there it was seven eight books order M so yeah Journey has started by the way when I joined it was not even a company it was a proprietorship because so Sachin father was a Trader in in in in uh Punjab chandigar so he has 27:50 some balance city where [Laughter] so um 2009 it was got registered by the way flipart got registered in 2009 but it started in 200 October 2007 I came on board in 2008 so we started our journey I I I taken care of all the supply chain operation category uh first four year I was managing all these things and then after that mostly focusing on building supply chain capabilities operation so I started uh ecard within Flipkart in 2010 uh yeah we have built that that Journey was amazing so from 0 to 15 so I left in 2016 I started guran with bab and amod again bab and amod I met babau in Flipkart he was CTO of flip and amod amod was CTO and babo I know he was my senior in it so good friend but he 28:53 was also working in flipart entrepreneurs all of all of them are same host 29:18 also I have no IDE maybe I'm connecting the dots now is it because of the network of alumni that it helps I but it had that [Music] thing people my all of my angel was done 29:43 by funding VC fund nobody was knowing at that time so I think that's why I'm saying 201 we got some exit how many companies have you invested in around 150 150 150 May how many have become big like serious scale an academy is that even this grower now it's a blinket off late he keeps talking about coffee and yeah I SC this coffee wave third wave investing in something else coffee I have uh now because I believe there are too much on one sector tech tech tech so I found something in India food will also scale qsr so from last one and a half year I'm experimenting like third wave so when I came there there were nothing uh in last one and a half year we have scale I 30:45 think somewhere now they are valued around 200 million something like that um and it's good because they're they're profitable business that's what I'm saying it's good to see that some business is profitable and they're making money MH uh then I have a view uh in India Beyond tier 2 tier 3 city um like Domino's kind of business can be built uh magd also can be built but I found some great entrepreneur who are already building I'm backing them um and I I believe they will open 2,000 3,000 store in this country um so I I'm experimenting on that same view I have for the South Indian food because of if you'll see rameswaram and I'll give an example I've been there yeah so they cut like 7,500 bills a day crazy and they one store do 5 CR so this is like 10 by 10 kind of 10 x 15 kind of store store in a do do like 4.5 CR a month almost 50 CR one store of 10 by 15 31:48 and with decent margins and all decent margin I'm just saying it's a 70% gross margin they must be doing a beta and monthly level generating around 30% minimum so with its wife is uh again a very successful entrepreneur she has this brand of clothing called my Bliss Club Bliss Club you want to say something yeah so so basically she started this business about 2 and a half three years ago and like it's a very Mission driven business what she's trying to solve is she's fundamentally building the first women focused Fitness brand right because in India most Fitness brands have always been associated with men right like no one Sol women focus problems so she started this two and a half three years ago and she wants to kind of build a culture of movement in her own words right so she wants people to move a lot more Fitness is not just about having like some crazy sixpack ABS But like everyone whatever you do every single 32:49 day even if you walk 100 meters you're moving and how can you make that Journey more fulfilling so she started this 2 and a half 3 years ago and it's been doing pretty well I I see her every day because we live in Zim religiously they they like see comes every day yeah do position as a body positive brand yeah it's a I think it's one of the principles is that like he how do you again go against body shaming which happens again a lot in India so we we had a brand we built a brand called all little larger uh that became very big actually it was the most profitable business we ever created but major were in W not in Nets as much so before I met Mino like one and a half two years ago me and vidit had gone for a conference so I had never met his wife and we had one week to kill and we used to spend a lot of time having breakfast lunch dinner every day and he would describe Meo to me uh the thing about 33:52 vidit right he's very certain about what he want once in life and there is a weird kind of contentment I'm talking not professionally but personally which makes him I think more complete as a emotional human being which is fairly unique CU many people I know including myself we live through a lot more ambiguity when it comes to forming our Notions about these subjects where you are so certain about what you believe in and what you want and so early in life I think that's something and you're the youngest amongst all of us very good good for a podcast like this anything to anyone think we both don't get into trouble it's not that he will get into trouble but I want Masa story like we don't want a safe story we want an interesting story we'll talk about a friend of ours 34:52 okay first like last month do uh February yeah February we went to Riyad we were there for one entire week and one very nice gentleman invited us to his house for dinner and his family his name was h a hanim Muhammad hanim Muhammad h n i uh you say the next part so again so then uh Hy Muhammad everybody Hy he started calling you honey honey that friend of yours it was so funny when he when like um hi honey good night honey his name is honey but RI was such a fun experience 35:54 so investing opportunities you guys should go check it out so we made a group of friends and we went to Riyad for a week and uh we met people in different departments in business in government all of that the scale of the projects they're doing is madness V project called ran you know how many Villas they're building 45,000 45,000 in one project in one project they're spending $3 trillion doll on that NE that I saw like some City very different city it's a it's a line City call it line so the dimension is 200 Me by 150 we all see visit abroad we all have done it and then we want to do something like India so that itself sometimes it's is it a great thing or a I think I think 36:55 the Dynamics and the demographics the two country countries are so different I think Saudi Arabia probably has less than 10% of our population not million 5 like 3% yeah yeah less than 3% 2% plan like they can't plan but I'm saying the imagination goes wild now correct I think for that point to arrive we need to have kind of like reached a certain GDP per capita I think yeah but you know when like when we started going abroad and we would have met every entrepreneur who has created something in the world I think we start thinking about that here then we start making mistakes I was coming to that point I agree with you I think what have you seen a lot of examples like this like where people get inspired too much and 37:55 say but don't you think maybe 15 because human beings are human beings like I'm talking about e-commerce at large I'm talking about but e-commerce also in India since the subject is 38:21 discussed localization has to happen I agree like sometimes people try to like copy paste with the exact te which I believe say we are in broking asset management and stuff like that there have been examples very similar in the US for a long time if you talk about Ola Uber has been there for a long time if you talk about airbn it's a space I'm it's a financial services or the other one is mobility so they are they're Natural Things what what is that new thing you can do in India with the Indian reference point is something which should be more interesting in India do you think it's not about how you tweak what has worked elsewhere but create something is that what you're saying you asking like Instagram of India Google of India something like that India can only Prosper if we we are able to create value addition in the economy of course by just selling commodities without value addition because value I believe that 39:24 add which is manufacturing 39:36 okay consumer consumer facing brands in India which have scaled let's say to about, crores in sales what are the first five brands that come into your mind and why do you think there are so few Brands I think brand we were able to build around 4 5,000 CR Brands so but now you look at boat I am looking 40:12 ATS has certain level but not thousand but they are all getting there so new age brands are happening but old age Brands though I think liers nesle they all they all buil brands yeah look at the brand Magie has buil now yeah yeah it's crazy one single category one single product is will be the ones which have really scaled have been the foreign Brands which have come into India that's why India maybe but India I think Americo has done well ITC I would rate it as a Indian company they are building up lot of Brands so 40:50 Brit so I for this I think the biggest indever I think for this conv ation let's not focus or fix it upon e-commerce alone but Commerce at large because we have the digital Commerce is a very interesting subject and ultimately digital to buy anything it will be a digital use in whether it will influence you whether you have seen the brand digitally so digital is a part of your life now you think that's the future physical is going to die it's not about physical or digital I think digital influen instagr photo they you decide what to buy in that local market is a part of your life now I I don't see them as two separate things so you think in the future for these consumer facing Brands let's say for example the four or five brands that you were talking about what is the split right now of people buying them online and what is the split offline firstly I'm not building my daughters are doing I'm 41:52 maybe a mentor they are because I don't belong to that generation who think digitally the last thing digitally we did was to build a whole thing around data we did Big Brother toour delivery which which became very successful we got a break we started future Bazar when future bazar.com when Flipkart had along the same time yeah I think a little bit delay but yeah around 20 the same time 2008 n yeah yeah so we attempted digital being physical attempting digital was the biggest mistake because you can't think digital people who are born digital think digital so we were born physical and thinking digital was adding one more layer but that doesn't work and what do you think the recipe is now what could work you have to think digital now also have a physical presence physical you sell through every medium but you have to think digital everything when we used to build Brands earlier it was newspaper advertising television ading now you can't build a brand on newspaper advertising or television or 42:52 outdoor marketing targeting digital you have to think digital the consumers are different even before we talk about e-commerce or digital buying something why do you think from a very psychological standpoint why do you think somebody buys a product what in their psyche instigates them to buy a certain product why do some products do better than other products and do you think see I'm not talking about the essentials that we all need but I'm talking about shopping shopping in the sense of the word that we know it today do you think the power dynamic in a way shifts from the seller of the product to the from the uh seller from the buyer to the seller each time somebody buys a product like why does somebody buy a product and why does a product work so I'll tell you like at least what we see now right like 43:54 now because of social there's massive foro in the world all right so there's people call it inspiration but a lot of this is foral right like no one wants to be left out we see lots and lots of shopping gets shopping gets inspired by social media right like by Instagram by this and that one of the very common products that people use on the MHO app is people take photograph and they search that same photograph and buy and most of those photographs come from Instagram so how big is social media as a influencer part of mish Show's overall I would say it's very hard to attribute because many case people come in but it's a lot by the way even the way we design what kind of Trends are coming up what kind of things you see everything is driven a lot by what data we see on social it's a big part something think direct attribution we can see when people are really searching that image and it's an Instagram image so that we know and that's a large part but even otherwise we see everyone deciding what to buy and what not to buy driven a lot from social media so you're saying there 44:54 is this one central body in a way of influential people who decides what is cool and then everybody decides they need that product in their life to some extent yes right like that's happening now people are seeing a lot of celebrities now they are also seeing these influences come up and how how high does that chain go let's say we look at the influencer who does the influencer look at who in turn does that person look at is it a coroporation which is setting trends that are cool or is it organically evolving from people so at least from what we see now it's it may have started with being very concentrated but now even like I see like Bliss Club starting right like they leverage influencers quite a lot that entire brand was by the way built on Instagram like everything was built on Instagram and they found people so now the influencers that people can relate with hey this influencer looks like me where are the kind of things I like and I follow that person and some of the influencer very original kind of products they choose and they recommend and so on so it's not like very 45:54 concentrated that hey this person looks at this and that person looks at this I feel now it's very decentralized to some extent and everyone knows what kind of person feels like a body double to me right like hey this person has the same belief same liking same kind of body and I like this person I want to buy what they would look in so I feel that's happening at the very core of this distinction you're saying people are mandating or people are governing what becomes schol and it's not the brands of Corporation correct people are leading and brands are following to some extent now I see this to be very strong and I feel this is only getting bigger and bigger and I believe there is a reason for it pH see like he was saying the social media especially this uh video platforms let you can say Tik Tok Jo whatever like Instagram uh Facebook there are so many distribution big platform where more than hundreds of millions of users tier two tier three cities or in 46:58 then and they they like those video it's very hard for us to relate to why these guys are watching so much and ultimately some style some product something they picked and they wanted to look like it because they spend so much of time so I think like he was saying that social I think it is becoming a mainstream I I was just telling you when we are solving this predictability hey the goods were going to be delivered within one day two days or one week depend on the location and all I think this generation for them it's given that they are not thinking about ity how I was talking abouty payment Gateway 47:48 integration I think people now are wanted to look good wanted to look different if you asking who are the influencer if in their society they know some guys who have like thousand uh people follower 10,000 follower and they are getting inspired I can become influencer they are endorsing the brand local brand chips some shops something and they are Innovative if because they they wanted to look different in every videos because they are creating reals also so what they do go to mall go to changing room just change and take one video because they cannot spend that much of money see I think now they endorsed in a different way so is that the future instead of marketing on newspaper TV the way uh we look at it because being a part of the old economy the we believe that whenever a dominant Media or communication method Changes Everything Changes around it so when when there was a newspaper then the radio then the television television 48:49 commoditized build Brands now that's a social media and social interaction and I think mobile phone uh makes you very individualistic because now at at any every home everybody has a different breakfast everybody has a different meal earlier the family used to sit together and had one kind of meal things have changed and we have become very individualistic because of everybody has a personal phone so things are changing around it you so every person has a personal preferences of influencer you need you need so many people now to get influenced somebody will get influenced by something somebody will get influenced by something earlier it was mass advertising I remember we we made a movie and there was a particular dress which was made by baa and they still sell that dress after 14 years or 15 years and that virtually that dress met BBA as a brand also to a great extent so earlier there were other influences but it was it was commoditized to a great great extent but today things are different it's getting individualistic more and then you to 49:50 find that kind of users together and make them into a group so for the future of building a product for the new consumer brands that are coming up today is the go-to strategy just that paying influencers to promote your product no no I think it's a for Brands I think now it's a very core part like if you don't align with influence have a message like I could be saying my brand is sustainable my brand is xpy my brand does a certain kind of fashion does the brand try to build their distinction through that brand message or is the lower hanging fruit going to the influencers who have the widest reach and paying them money to adopt the brand in a way it's happening a lot and by the way just not about finding the biggest influencer as I was saying now influencers stand for different things yeah so you have to find someone who is very close to the philosophy that the brand wants to build is an intermediary between a brand in the customer yeah by 50:52 the way people have become very conscious they look at everything hey who have you picked what does this this person believe in you say sustainable I see this person using a plastic water bottle I don't believe this person sustainable my point is like everything every detail somehow matters now because people spend so much time so it's just not you can't go and that's why influencers work and very very small influencer very effective because it just not go to the celebrity with millions of followers you have to find someone who connects with the principes of the brand if you see I think I just earlier like you was said the uni dimensional controll Channel even like a newspaper TV and were controlled because of this social media Revolution multiple AIS uh Innovations are happening multiple AIS it's very hard to pick one Trend some Trends are working l a tier one some tier two some like high high paying capacity some genes some uh Millennials and and it's very hard to pick Trends but if you'll see the the 51:54 platform which are resp responsible for this social media like say Instagram or Facebook or now they are creating a fund so to engage these influencers because if the commercially they will not commercially if they will not be engaged it's very hard for them to come again and innovate so now they're creating a fund for it and somehow they are creating economics currently those are broken uh because the people who are finding those numbers of influencer they are creating those infrastructure but currently it's broken so these are Big Innovations are happening how to create that fund so that all these influencer at multiple AIS keep engaged with the platform so I think and I see retail has becoming a byproduct of that and do you think celebrities like I'm talking about old school celebrities Bollywood cricketers do you think that connection has somewhere gotten lost because people have assumed in their minds that are for 52:56 sale in a way and rarely ever do they believe in the product they're selling and will the trend in the future be that brands do not go to Bollywood or Cricket but they go to more micro influencers in a way who are more authentic I think it is happening slightly but I think that's still not the prominent reason like the reason people go to influencers because earlier by the way it was binary either you have a big celebrity or you don't right and until you become large enough to afford a celebrity you can't do it now people can start on day one you could be a very small one you find a small influencer who connects with your philosophy and people keep graduating there's still very few influencers who have the same following as celebrities so what you're saying still hasn't happened but I believe by the way it will happen soon in the next few years some large celebrities will have the same following as uh some large influencers with same following as celebrities you guys do a lot of marketing we do and we are seeing by the way like marketing budget for you how much do you spend last year it's a it's a large amount I won't mention the number here but it does not matter I 53:58 want you to say but I won't mention still but let's say am misho spend something like 2,000 a year to Market what I'm wondering is how do you decide the allocation of that money what have you learned say for example last year you sponsored IPL and this and that and stuff like that and actors and stuff what have you learned from that experience and what will you change going forward yes so the one thing which we have always been very effective is we are very local we go as local as possible because our audience space is very heterogenous unlike tier one which Al is also like very if you look at Instagram looks very homogeneous right like tier one tends to behave very similarly as soon as you go beyond it does not you've always been very local so we go to Andra Pradesh and Telangana and pick an actor or pick an actress or a celebrity that connects with that person something we have always been very local and we have seen that to be very effective um but I me at the end of 54:58 the day it's Capital allocation right you spend x amount or you spend y amount you see where the ROI happens yeah we've seen over time like it's not that you need to have a celebrity all the time right like so we keep changing celebrity so that like the company's image is not attached to one person right like that that is also risk at the end of the day when you use a celebrity huh how much does your Roi go up while you're using a celebrity versus not using is there a Tang difference very hard to estimate yeah super hard like if someone asks you this question it's all anecdotal it's like people build stories around it can estimate um which was the biggest hit of marketing last year what worked best so Diwali campaign did very well which is where we did localization so we kind of we had different celebrities for different parts of the country right like we had Soro ganguli for West Bengal we had ramcharan for uh certain state in South India so I'm saying it's a it's 55:59 basically we went very local and we saw that to be much more effective than have one person who appeals to all the country because we realize it's close to impossible to find one person who appeals to everyone you can find cricketers but they still appeal to males and not to females so it's it's very very hard so I'm saying we have we found localization to be very effective should we eat off and then continue KH you want to say something I just think that even celebrity they are want they are investing like significant time to become influencer if you'll see the trend like cricketer is showing I'm going to bed singing swing someone you'll see all those and they are like serious amount of time they they spend they also understand those Trends so they wanted even in that space they wanted they're competing they wanted to become one of the largest influencer in our space in fintech there are some people there is sharan there is ratna ranard there is things school I 57:01 think these guys are uh especially people like think School uh I think there is a there is a big divide between the quality of content they're doing and other people are doing I don't know how they've arrived at that point I'm not an investor in things school I'm not promoting them in any way whatsoever but I think the future of information dissemination even about Finance is going to move from traditional channels to people like them like I don't think the day is far five years from now somebody will not be watching news they will be watching things cool for their news and I wonder how this entire equation changes and who becomes celebrities of 10 years from now it be quite interesting to see how the world changes though I think celebrity I think earlier because most of the followers were related to celebrity I think in my mind if let's say if I like Cricket or let's 58:03 say some sports it's a skill game I think it will not going to change still I will going to prefer that but how commercially I can associate I think mightbe it will be different but lots of things I like because that guy is doing I wanted to be seen like him or something like Fitness or or some some of the clothing styles but who will sell those products might be different I think like we were speaking let's get some insights from yes sir you want to know the past the present and the future of Commerce in the country I think whatever 30 35 years we have worked there is a lot of things which you learn during the journey and journey is a lot of people believe India is infinite Market because of the 20% of the world's population and I think that's India is a very very interesting country the most heterogeneous country you can ever believe in I'll give you an interesting 59:03 example of a temple or a religious economy 59:20 small Temple economy her in micro eom and I believe 20% of India 30% of India in some sense lives on government Aid when you look at the entire market and what unfortunately the reports with the Consulting companies make I was just I was reading all the data 59:59 I think and to make that happen it can't happen with commodity play or it can't happen with uh where the value addition is not there so my theory which we I wrote it also a long time back in my book is anybody I called that India is divided into three parts three India consumption India one India 2 India three India one is the consuming class anybody who has a domestic help is for me is a consuming class because consuming not basic consumption but some value added consumption India 2 is the serving class which makes our lives better the dver the helpers the Pune The Watchmen the lifman and for every one India one there is three to three and a half India 2 and unfortunately India one doesn't give enough money to India to to make them consume discretionary products and then there is India 3 which is Farm laborers they one AIDS and Factory workers 1:01:03 India 2 and three I would say like in a city like Bombay it's a very interesting definition until some years ago 25% of people used to live in apartments I would say 10 years ago today it might be 35 5 to 8% people lives in lived in CHS and balance lived in slums so so India I think every city will represent some way or the other but if you had to aggregate the country what do you think I would say 11 to 133% would be the consuming class India one India one which is 20 CR which is around 20 crores and it might be growing and I think it's growing and what pace of growth will depend will will determine everything and unfortunately we live in that Community only that India one be Equity investor 1:02:12 I wanted to 1:02:19 see and oh that's why I always say there was a movie which became very popular during our time there was a mie and there was a song called We want to succeed but I think India is 20% of the world 18 to 20% of the world's population it for the whole world I think it was the European economy the American economy which consumed which made the world grow then the Chinese economy which made the world grow now it's India's time India will have to learn to consume much much more than what they are consuming and that's what will drive some of the numbers if you'll see sir and I'm just I'm I'm not contesting ke a b and there are a bucket and I the places we have come from I totally agree but some of the number if you'll see if it's true I think it's mindboggling let's say India GDP when I was passing out in 2003 was around $500 1:03:19 billion right and now it's I'm just taking the number published is around let's I'm taking 3.5 trillion seven times has increased in 20 years let's say Farm GDP which is 17 18% I think that's the number 16% 18% which comes around 550 600 billion at this level but that farm income only happening in tier two Beyond because one city 80% of it and but those numbers even because no tax and all PP P I think it's around if you'll see 800 900 billion dollar kind of impact it can create number value addition value 1:04:27 But ultimately you need x amount the best consumption happens when the economy is around 7,000 to 11,000 doll per yeah earlier it was 4,000 now people say that 5,000 6,000 I would say per cap capita per capita do you think that's the main metric that matters per capita GDP cap even when you're calculating per capita GDP you're taking total GDP and dividing by population uh no so some bit of it to remove so it's around 2,700 currently how do you how do you arrive at that number though do you take the total divide by population and average people use which is 2,000 is with that that would skew everything right but yeah the distribution which is what you come to there are so many economies within that economy yeah government said that 2500 recently but like GDP problem you take out Amani and adani from the top complet masso it's a 10 let 1:05:29 say very very there another thing another statistic which I want to India has uh two CR weddings a year one CR weddings two CR families we produce two and a half CR children every year so and our wedding economy is 15 lakh crores average spend of 7 lakh rupees in a family multiplied by 2 CR why do you think in the wedding industry agation but there is not one dominant player or three four dominant so but do you think it's opportunity weddings people have created made that to a business look at man as a brand now he's build on wedding man is wedding and there might be many many Brands every city has Brands but still if you look at 15 lakh CR scale and then you look at man it doesn't feel still proportionate 1:06:35 the wedding IND consumption is driv by lot of societal events look at the harvesting Festival consumption consumtion used to happen during harvesting which talks about next Trend I think like it it business the technology business created around how many people nearly CR plus families would have got uh into their business and that created a lot of consumption we need next round of what do you thinkon next round will be I think we'll have to participate in something I think a creative economy is a big economy which is Creator economy creative economy India can Excel there also we are fascinated by the generative AI very very fascinated imagine in retail business in a grocery business somebody will tell I want to make this item for for the next 5 days the retailer will give exact quantity of uh what you want so the packaging will change everything will 1:07:35 change so the any new technology will bring in so many changes and the whole ecosystem around it changes also another question like I'm going to come to both of you and ask what are the trends for the future and what do you see changing but since you three have worked so much in this space at the cor ofit product like why does something sell and why does something not sell if you had to provide insights from that what would you say like maybe you can start first I think a product uh product sells because it fulfills the needs of the customer so what we used to say is there is a daily want and there is a daily need of a customer and there is occasional want and occasional needs so your product has to fit in somewhere and there are occasional consumption and there are daily consumptions so your product has to solve the needs of that customer the wants of that customers secondly product sales because uh you 1:08:37 are fulfilling some vanity or some ego of that person if you are selling a high value product yeah so how do you recognize these needs if I'm somebody who wants to sell a product today how will I get data on what cures somebody's ego or vanity what is his need how do I go about figuring out what product to design I think the the society is changing the world is changing you can look at uh what is getting popular so so like we always thought the when otd came in and covid made it happen that people watched the longer form of Storytelling nobody believed that storytelling can be told in 10 10 hours or 2020 hours storytelling was supposed to be within Less Than 3 hours it changed the whole Market I think the whole content Market the cinema the multiplexes it will undergo significant change so what what now what to produce with the customer or the audience likes today the entire Hindi Bollywood film industry is struggling 1:09:39 there was a movie I'm told it didn't run even for a day they have to take it out and it's happening this kind of Mups are happening like crazy yeah and so what do you create for Multiplex as a Content I think the everybody's getting into the drawing board uh by the this is true for retail very very strongly I've seen when the channel changes what sales also change absolutely always AB right so because as soon as the challenge changes like what you discover first like for example earlier when you used to go offline you will touch the product that was a big part of what you buy now you can't do it right so suddenly pricing takes a big like I have seen online pricing suddenly is a lot more important because touch and quality is somehow it's very hard to pick now merchandising inspiration photographs social matters a lot which was not there earlier so as soon as Channel changes like your what sales change changes like completely now internet was a big thing mobile was a big thing now ai I don't 1:10:41 know what that is right like AI will also kind of change some of these channels abut right matter was supposed to be now it doesn't feel like going to happen anytime soon but if that happen has a good has big potential in shopping like it should be like if if medium becomes large by the way then the channel especially for shopping will change and then what you buy will be very different like if these guys like meta with all the access to so much information is spending $1 155 billion or $6 billion a year on creating that ecosystem would you say it's likely that that will be the future it's it's very hard because historically if you see whenever big technology shifts come they generally don't come from large company they come from startups right it's very hard that they will know what people need meta will know right like that's a like every single time all of these technologies have come they've never come from existing large incumbents right so I find it unlikely it'll happen it may happen like who knows but historically it's never been right right 1:11:45 and what do you think like I was asking him like what do you think is working today and what do you think will work tomorrow when it comes to selling a product so I think I again my assessment is this whole thing of serving need has become a lot more of serving aspirations now as I was saying most people come Society is changing so both people now have a lot more discretionary income as people say so it's not that when they want to buy they buy now people open the app and they want to look like the celebrity or look like this influencers because they feel it's much better and you fulfill their aspiration they feel much more happier right so now I think some bit of the consumption started to happen and we're still talking about that 15 20 CR population of India like so for example just in the last 12 months 14 CR people have boughten Mish show so I'm saying it's a large they go to a much larger audience right so now it's it's a lot of people who are like the India 2 is there we have a lot of India 2 users on our platform you're saying is mish show 1:12:46 predominantly India 1 with some India 2 or is it like India one plus I would say both both balanced we don't have India one is a very Broad seg right so we don't have the top 10 15 million I would say but everyone after you see India 2's discretionary income Rising so it's still small and that's why our job is to like within that small wallet still help them fulfill those aspirations they still go on Instagram they still follow someone and they say hey no I don't have the same amount of money can you help me fulfill this aspiration in the very small budget which is what we solve but they also have aspirations very very strong ones no we had a a very interesting another the like India one consumes in their lifetime I would have consumed at least 10,000 skus or but India 2 or India 3 India 3 will be 200 skus India 2 would be I don't know how much but not more than 400 500 in the Life Time That's Rising correct I would say India to would have consumed only 100 skus at one point of time now it's 1:13:48 rising going up now they want from a that to a toothpaste to this to to a cream to everything so that's that's happening so you're saying it makes sense to build products which appear to be aspirational today and what do you think will be tomorrow it's very hard I just feel like a lot of this as per capita goes up this 2,000 goes to 4,000 most of the increas is happening in discretionary not like people fulfill their non-discretionary needs anyways right so it's going to come here so I feel this aspiration thing is going to compound and grow nonlinearly going forward like everyone is doing it and everyone's doing individually now so ear it used to be a family affair now everyone's fulfilling their own aspiration separately everyone follow someone else on Instagram everyone else has different things that they Aspire for and they're fulfilling it again and again and our job is to basically make it affordable right like how do we make them achieve their aspirations affordably is what we focus 1:14:48 on as a company right right you want to go next yeah like you like it's a a very complex thing if you'll see what trend is working today so if I'm building a product for today what do you think I should keep in mind and what trend do you think will be there tomorrow I think today if you'll see it's a how you are if you're are talking about Commerce it drives from your unit economics right currently it's making lots of sense to optimize let's say on supply chain sourcing inventory call and everywhere the technology goes He there's a festival these skus go so currently we are picking of which SKU how what and all those things we are building a technology infrastructure consumption predicting hey next time uh next year 40% it will grow in this channel but how channels are changing 1:15:48 it's it's very different like I was describing Jes are thinking in a very different way about their consumption um Millennials are definitely a bit thinking and the other PE like traditional consum consumer who like price sensitive quality touch and Fa I I'll give an example Jen was saying that size Matters too much to me I will not going to buy online this clothing size sorry uh so I not going to buy online because for me I'm buying and then returning again I want to look exactly fit like the celebrity so for me the price sensitivity is not that much for me these s and offline gives me that flexibility so I'll see here but I wanted to buy the what I like offline because that's where instant I if I am 1:16:48 able to buy offline so it's a different kind of key I never imagine because there are so many policies you are saying saying that hey I will return within 5 days 10 days again uh fulfill well no no it will not matter for me it takes lots of time either I should um order five six sizes then my money get stuck the Insight is uh like we have to be watch out where the consumers are build uh spending most of their time and we have to build some of the products for according to that channel so if you most of the evolution and S will agree has happened technology on back end rationalizing the technology for applications like what to give to Consumers like pricing search things like the SKU search cataloging things like that all those investment has happened in last 15 years I can at least say that but nobody knows which channel 1:17:50 is picking up so I think that's where I'm seeing now the time is to find a consumer their money where they are liking what's they are liking every like might for fashion logically it say let's say social media is one of the most leading channels but for Consumer uh for consumer goods like white goods is it the performance is it the support is it the pricing I don't know let's say buying AC on the social media is very hard to imagine mobile phone I'm very clear because it's a feature lead camera lead camera is dominating let's say mobile as a category because that that's the consideration set for for New Generation as well as for everyone say your son grows up in 5 years and he's shopping on I don't know he will buy like in Within game he's playing so much there uh he he can click I wanted to order this I wanted to look like this I don't 1:18:51 know might be that's not the main stream right another question I wanted to ask is when aggregation happens even in between platforms like soon maybe we will get to a point where misho is selling everything that is available Amazon is selling everything that is available Udan flip cart everybody will it come down to curation and legitimacy in a way as to how I pick which platform to shop on by the way it ends up being what your value prop is right so for example Amazon is very very focused on tell about everybody cuz you're in this finish with Mish show what is Amazon's value proposition Amazon is like convenience so I want to stand for convenience right so they will make sure that everything that you order you always feel like it comes faster here as compared to anyone else but the flip side is that often the product is fake and the quality checks are not at part it could be right and that's by the way it's a it's a thing that they will 1:19:52 continue to improve but one thing they want to stand for for which is this convenience all right and everything else if you ask me is secondary they'll continue to make some improvement which not you have to achieve Excellence here but they want to do this so they want to stand for it they will not sell anything where this somehow gets diluted because the brand right the value ad that people remember you for is that when they come to Mish show people believe that this selection I will not get for uh a more affordable price anywhere else like they have to believe this and I will get the largest possible selection in the price points that I can afford that I also have to believe now everything that we do in our business basically I I don't know I think it's a category wise difference and maybe what is Flipkart and Amazon's distinction I think mostly can for a long time if I have to tell you the truth I bought stuff on flip cart out of some stupid notion that they're an Indian company in nationalism but now after Walmart deal I don't see any distinction between Flipkart and Walmart I would just as well Buy in Amazon as I might in Flipkart how does Flipkart 1:20:55 I think the DNA of the company I can definitely talk about I think we were building the company then it was like how to give a best value proposition let a price service let's say cood building a logistic around that something like that right so would you put that in the category of convenience and say Flipkart thought there is forers pricing price like it's a good price at that uh definitely price has a lots of aspects I'm not going into that but offering what Indian consumer wants I think Amazon has a like he saying that convenience but that audience in bucket even in bucket a is very narrow what do you think of multiplexes is a good segue into a very interesting question I remember you own a bit of multiplexes know I still have I've reduced my shareholding but I have about 2% and I keep asking a lot PV I was on the board of ino for a long time 1:21:56 now they've merged P so you would know you should tell us this yeah like you are interrogating us I think you should also answer you tell what's going to happen Multiplex I'll tell you truly what were your belief and why you think my trist with Multiplex company started many years ago okay like maybe six or seven years ago I had a very very beish Outlook of them six seven years ago pre pandemic much much before pandemic I shed them to begin with when say PVR was at 1300 bucks, 1400 bucks there were a couple of policy changes which were happening the foremost of them being uh it was in court that people will be allowed to bring outside food and water and drink it inside the multiplex and eat it and food as a income source for multiplexes is really high as high as 40 45% then it changed pre pandemic mic when I went long these 1:22:57 companies uh because my reasoning changed to India too like sir mentioned is growing in terms of entertainment for a family of four for three hours at sub th000 rupees in a safe air conditioned environment the Alternatives were not many one could argue Cricket is an alternative but I thought as India to grows the the relevance of Multiplex will go up and they also become like these distribution hubs which I don't think they have up until now but if people are going there so often it gives them the opportunity to do other kind of marketing branding advertising all kinds of stuff where I sit today I'm con confused like everything else in my life I'm in uh I'm shrouded in ambiguity on both sides because when I talk to people who uh safe say when I talk to somebody who's the CEO of hot star like he's now 1:23:59 the Bangalore guy right like sajit has become the CEO the ex uh uh Google sjit is also our neighbor yeah so he would give me an Outlook of why OT will kill traditional Cinema but then I talk to somebody like a UFO movies which is also another company I've invested in they manage the technology around project a movie on the screen there I start to think the number of screens available uh the density of screens in India is still like much much lower like I would say in the US there is one Multiplex screen for 30 40,000 people uh in China maybe uh for a few hundred thousand people in India there is one screen for many many hundreds of thousands of people and to a large part of India watching a movie still going you know that truck screen in The Villages and then everybody gets 1:25:00 together with no kind of choice as to what content they get to watch uh so for me but on this last Point as Kish G was saying like anywhere where you use the population number is somewhat right like per per X number of people has a lot of India 3 which skew this metric how do you get to the right number secondly people believe that India to wants to come into India one I don't think so societally they don't look down they look down upon us I also think that's the right I feel like we follow or we try to follow on the path of the West in China so much by thinking that everybody moving into cities all of this is good for the economy and growth and all of that I personally believe for many reasons fragmentation is actually a model that could work better for today than it did for China 20 30 years ago so N I want to say something on this Multiplex thing you know when mobile 1:26:01 phone came into the picture and everybody wanted to buy a mobile phone where did the budget come from they had to reduce some spend somewhere and the biggest impact came on fashion and we were a part of the fashion business then and people were changing phone in the first six months everybody was changing phone much much faster now it's slowed down so what has happened if you look at the multiplex industry that money of spend which was supposed to go to multiplexes happening to restaurants now people are spending two and a half hours Family sitting together friends sitting together and spending that 1 and half th000 2,000 Rupees per head and that money is clearly seen people don't want to watch can I ask you another question here like the listed restaurant chains you take jubilent you take West Life take the franchises of big Western counterparts right like McDonald's Burger King KFC all of that they all command a significant premium to the market right they trade at let's say they're earning 1:27:02 100 rupees their valuation is 7,000 8,000 in some cases 20,000 all of that but the unlisted space in restaurants what happens if somebody comes in and Aggregates like we spoke about Sana bavan there are so many of these in India right if somebody comes and aggregates a bunch of these chains where the total sales comes up on par with say the Western counterparts which have this do you think there is an Arbitrage between the valuation of this to that but they don't need money now ra why will he need money they refuse to talk impossible because if a good bus you don't need you you don't need money at all but the question is does a business often need money in order to scale if that is the case with more money you don't want scale you all assume that everybody wants scale I also thought so similarly okay I can scale we expect everybody 1:28:04 from last one and a half year I have like spent lots of time on this making money businesses especially in this restaurant May most of them make money especially the good one whom we know 80% they don't want money yeah they don't want they don't want to expand and why don't they want to expand they simply saying that uh our quality will detate I don't want these headaches I don't want to dilute they don't want I think there are two categories there are few people who are defensive but I'm sure that people aggressive also by the way people whom like say V bone go and talk to that honor and yeah but like you see the experience such a big brand and you go there and you have 100 people are standing outside that guy does not know how to monetize the asset The Experience there are the people going but I'll tell you why why are temples create why are temples created where there is no pain and because without pain there is no gain there are Resturant also temp 1:29:04 you I have like I go to weekly and every time get amazed sometimes it's 200 M line on the on the building you go to indagar H I go to the one in Whitefield which is a much larger place you'll get to eat I understand but Indra nagar is the like icon he but see at the right like I get the point you guys are making but I like to believe that we live in a aspirational capitalistic correct ecosystem not as much as what we think but to a certain extent we are capitalist there not there's no debate on that but it's not as much as we think if somebody has the opportunity to expand and be a bigger winner in the cycle of capitalism I think human tend tendency will persuade him in that direction eventually at whatever Pace to whatever level of magnitude new food like new thing is showing but like I don't know the reason really I I like I have my own experience in restaurant business we were we came into early like 1:30:05 a Silla movie it was a little ahead of time we I like your movie yeah so done most of the CH in Bombay ah Bombay Blues Noodle Bar copper chimney I I got sports bar ahead of time both ahead of time and how much money we lost we only know but now I think now but restaurant problem the per capita expenditure of building a restaurant is very high and and the life the life of a restaurant I'm talking about qsr now I'm not isn't bullish qsr then you be very successful yeah is that why the franchise model with so much standardization all the industrialization of that's a qsr yeah not all qsrs in a way most of it yeah most of it let's say if I add ramesar for me will be the qsr if I going to scale it but that that's how I will see yeah but it's you see ramesham also gets an extra 1:31:05 space outside for which he is not paying where people are standing and eitting so I think there is a novelty attached to that whenever you so true like if I had to open a restaurant yeah that would probably give me more business than having 40 shares in there okay in a weird way that works never know but food food is a very interesting Indians are loving to discover new food I'm telling you this coffee coffee chain 3 years back or two three years back no investor is willing to invest because they believe now you should see what happened I don't even I don't know why it is but wherever stores are opening doesn't matter it's Bangalore or Delhi or Mumbai only it's four five City they are going crazy still finding that P it's not it's not about that it's about people 1:32:06 spending time it's a social interaction but earlier also it but nobody was believing it it's about at the verge of Cl and coffee something is one of the byproduct of whatever other activities you are doing and maybe sometimes the main activity but you then get into the other activity I agree with you 100% I'm also like a small investor with him in the third wave and hotti copy and a couple of coffee places when I was reviewing coffee chains and I was trying to do it as objectively as I could the difference between the west and India is in the west people are going into a coffee shop to actually drink coffee culture of buying a coffee and walking especially in New York is such a big thing that the financials work out for them here if you sell a coffee at 200 300 rupees and people have to sit there for hours to consume it and you have to pay for the real estate uh the numbers you look at it from a different light altogether so I don't think in that particular instance especially in coffee 1:33:06 we can equate what happens here to what happens in the west to your earlier example because I don't think we will copy what they're doing so you're saying it's harder to make money here in coffee IND hard have just started making money in India yeah but they are started making money H but they are started making money but qsr are making good money good money early early to say that but let's see how much money did you spend on your wedding on my wedding I spent very less yeah this was like long ago before when you get raised I had ra any money so imagine when you get married I got married in 2018 beginning 2018 Su got in 2012 but I was at that time year old Delhi wife is from harana would you like to say something about your personal life like just 1:34:06 you've seen so much in life if you had to advise vidit who's new into this whole family marriage doesn't have kids yet situation he also has decided never to have kids also no no I haven't at least yet I don't know also need some projecting projecting lost 1:34:33 cause I I personally believe philosophically life is a series of events and uh you have to enjoy relish cherish every event which comes in some events will be very heart pleasing and some events will be not so great but I think the fun is uh having all kind of events so if you look at my life like we grew at 30% life was unbelievably you it was up up up only so the the lower the lower side was much much lower this is like a tough question I don't know if I should even ask it or not but in that 30% growth cycle let's assume two or three things went wrong right like what do you think I believe that in life there are two buckets of things one you can control another you can't control for what you can't control there's no point like breaking your head over it uh just as 1:35:34 advis to us who are like entrepreneurs or budding ones and people around what do you think went wrong what caused it and if you had to do it over again what might you change so I think I'm a as a personality I'm a a little impulsive person so what went wrong is basically growing on debt and uh not building a strong balance sheet so that is one thing which was apparent third I I then my daughter just started studying Shakespeare so other day some 10 days back she came out of the class and she called me up I had one of my best day of my life I studied a concept of Storytelling called the tragic flaw so every character which Shakespeare buil had a flaw in that and he used to highlight that flaw and that character then I started looking at Ramana mahabarata and everybody had a flaw but 1:36:35 flaw in India was never highlighted as much we were thought that everybody's perfect so everybody has a fatal fla I converted this tragic fla into a fatal flow and I started analyzing my fatal flow and I was able to discover a lot so and everybody has that flaw and every I believe every entrepreneur has a some flaw uh which I think which should be taught and and if somebody can work on it they'll make less number of mistakes and we'll be more successful so I have gone through flaws and flaws and flaws so how do we discover that fatal flaw for us pychology says this like if you go through Yung Freud Adler like much after Shakespeare's time obviously but we are all flawed right right we all insecure We Are all uh not altruistic like we might like to believe at some level or we might like to portray there is one true us there is one Persona of us which we have created 1:37:36 in our own mind which we believe is not flawed that Persona and we spend so much time and effort defending that Persona and denying our flaw that it makes life more complicated even for us and for people around us so different people call it different thing I think people like Yung and Adler call it our sh Shadow uh it is driven by many things like your childhood had has such a big impact on it like what you did between ages 3 4 to 8 n will have so much to do with what your Shadow is today the financial condition of your parents the relationship between your mother and father your relationship with your siblings and also innately how you're born as a person so every psychology uh book kind of tells you that recognize your flaws they in fact help you out by doing some categorization they say this could be a certain kind of person that could be a certain kind of 1:38:37 person but n this should be taught to entrepreneurs and you can find like I like I have a very simple philosophy of life that music has seven there are five primary colors and there are nine recorded emotions of human being life is not so complex so if you look at the flaws of entrepreneurs I think it can be defined very well and there are people like me or many people like us who have made a lot of mistakes and how can it be recorded and thought especially for entrepreneurs problem we all have gotten lucky in the cycle of Life see we're all sitting here outside of because we've gotten very lucky right I mean vidit is brilliant suit is brilliant you're brilliant but at some level luck has played played a dispropor part of how we arrive to be where we are today but the problem especially in startup crowds is because somebody goes from a to zed in two years in 3 years in five years in six 1:39:37 years you don't start to take yourself so seriously but the scale of everything you're saying and doing is so much bigger that what you were saying and doing five years ago today we'll be looked at through a completely different lens so even for that reason I think what he said is so true that we need to like I know introspecting is the hardest thing in life maybe but and that's what I was going to ask like how do you find these fatal flaws I'm sure like you now have some ways after destruction you can easily find it you're open to it I think we always created organization which allowed descent so that was not the challenge secondly we never kept along ourselves our Echo Chambers never in our life so everybody knows your weakness anybody who's around you will know your weakness you should ask them know how to no they will never tell you your weakness ever yeah but so how do we get it out then introspection first thing to do is normalize having flaws the problem is social media and anonymity what it has 1:40:38 done is people go out there and say about everybody like one should not care but in many cases you find yourself caring but until we come to terms with the fact that you are flawed sujit is flawed he's flawed I am flawed until we realize that we each are and then we realize that we all are I think people will be scared and shy of coming out with their first by the way I have one disagreement which is I believe most entrepreneur are very paranoid also so they believe something going to go wrong at all point in time and and that's why I feel like if you tell them there's something wrong H I can do this and basically fixing this would mean something will grow and then all of that happens but I genely feel people are paranoia he's talking I'll give you an example he was saying I'm saying you people want to acknowledge they could have flaws I I believe that is not true I believe most people are paranoid they just have Blind Side that no one exposes them to I'll give you an example of a flaw I think just I wanted to add to 1:41:38 that point when he was saying that there are people and as an entrepreneur what you do I focus so much on on work your circle get shrinked and then you are get surrounded by those people you can say that might be they know but they never wanted to say there having those circles where people can tell you it's very hard it's very you can tell you talk you frankly or can give kind of feedback some suggestion and you should be open for that because you you get give a reaction the channel will going to close I think those feedback channels are very important but it's a investment it's investment it automatically doesn't happen but every entrepreneur I personally believe can easily learn it they are open to ideas and thoughts so why not to this no but sir it's very hard when it's comes to talk about hey somebody every magazine every corner family member mother father everybody saying you are 1:42:39 perfect and your reaction control that feedback will come again or not if you give a different kind of reaction I think it's our educ you done talk but our education also look at uh Rama raama is the perfect human being yeah that's true but he was also flawed it was all about righteousness or but I think the question was how to control that people like we have to go to he understood the subject in one second he added up five things more there there will be people like him who will uh psychology is the best feature like I'll tell you personally for me right in the last three years I've stopped reading all books on finance economy which I used to spend time reading on growing up history and psychology I just do history and psychology I keep telling him like it's incredible how you will start looking at yourself from a different lens because we all spend mythology totally yeah I'm adding we took mythology as a subject yeah okay to digress again uh onc who is 1:43:43 going to explain it is it life changing for anybody trying to build a product in e-commerce what do you think will happen to onc going forward I think you especially more than all people cuz you have these tiny moment and pop kind of stores who come specifically sell on meish show can you explain yeah so for people who don't know onc onc basically we got a lesson today a little bit yeah this meeting when you were late we were watching that oh I'm saying it's a it's a government initiative trying to on board all kinds of small businesses on a platform and make all kinds of small businesses beat Kiran Etc basically come online and really unbundle the entire value chain right I really believe the vision and the mission there is quite powerful because you still don't find any panwari Etc selling products online 1:44:44 around you right very very India has about 60 million small businesses about million million and a half only sell anything online so now you can say eventually how many will do or don't do I don't know you look at southeast Asia e-commerce there started four years after India about 15 million people who sell on online just in Indonesia India is still Mill million and a half so I think there's a problem to be solved I I hope that onc is the answer we've integrated with them hopefully that will solve but still very early in very simple words like if you were to dumb it down for me if I am a seller who makes soaps M me now after onc how does my life change so I think it's more interop so basically they say it's like the UPI of e-commerce it's supposed to be that which is anyone you can upload your catalog on any app and it'll start to appear on all other apps which are integrated with onc so that's how it's supposed to be it's an interoperable e-commerce 1:45:45 platform tomorrow when I put my soap on nisho will it automatically show up on Flipkart it should if everything is on that's the goal I I have a very I want to ask you a question so you all you all believe 1:46:07 that I I don't know Supply follows demand the problem is this right Supply follows demand follow 1:46:27 I'll give you an example because this happen so gradually but this happens so gradually people don't understand but if you look at pandemic where things happen like very quickly right so suddenly for a year nothing was selling offline and you meet any small business in India like people are like oh people used to come to me and say sell online and I did not do and now I can't just put food on the table in my household right so I'm saying at that point every small business in IND realiz they want to be online and to some extent by the way informally a lot of them are online because they sell on WhatsApp so you can say that panari also send you whatever you want on a WhatsApp right they can are they selling online maybe yes but still like quite hidden in some unstructured platforms they haven't come online and they can't get access to a lot of demand that people who are selling online are getting to like he was saying that it's a digiti but someone has to enable and somehow there have been lots of blocks that haven't enabled it let's assume 1:47:29 in I only had a relationship with youat today suddenly the product shows up in Amazon flip card everywhere how does the use case for a e-commerce platform change then because then Amazon has less control over what all products are listed under them yeah and and that's the that's the unique thing about it a lot of the design principles haven't been thought of yet because everyone has a different supply chain right like if everything is available everywhere everything who stands for what what does a brand stands for like because everyone use the same supply chain so the product will come in the same amount of time if everything come the same amount of time then how will Amazon build a different identity than anyone else so the problem is like no one has thought about it even people have designed it still very so I I I don't know what will happen there so it's that's a fair explanation 1:48:30 so huh because if everyone is the same then how do people stand for different things and why will you have multiple apps and then who will really do it who going to Ben and which is the big problem payments are same on every app it's not that my if I do payment uh with one app to the other they stand for different things payments is a commodi one simple thing products are not like it's two different stor you go to cannot be exactly the same they stand for different things what they merchandise what they talk about what their marketing line is they're very different things so if you try to commoditize storefronts or marketplaces it's never been done before so how does it really come to life no one knows so I don't have a good answer to this question even government is not very clear they're trying they're bringing the people together but let's see every everybody have their own hidden agenda so India May investing into e-commerce there aren many opportunities Flipkart is owned by Walmart they're not listed here one can argue you can buy Walmart 1:49:31 shares in America but that would diversify you too much the only option I would say arguably is Nika J you can get a piece of the e-commerce p in India in the listed space uh what do you guys think of Nika the business model of Nika and what do you think will happen to Nika going forward I know they your competition but no we not by the way I I believe it's a very different business like we are a platform they're a brand so I think it's are they a brand CU they're not they're Distributing third party products yeah but still they are a brand they brand because look at Amazon as a brand it's a brand Flipkart is a brand Nika is a brand Mishu is also a brand they worked on building the brand yeah but my my still my thing was like they a lot of what do offline online the kind of products they sell a lot of products are exclusive so basically but vast majority of what they sell huh let's say they do 4,000 crores of 1:50:33 business a year let's say 5% margin kind of business uh operating margin or net margin 5% but most of what they sell is third party products that they are Distributing that's why I think my understanding of the business could also be limited but from what I've seen how they've approached it a lot of that business has been built by getting Supply that you won't get everywhere right so they've been much more focused on going very deep into that particular category in making it happen if if by the way you can get the same Supply that you have Nika you have an you can get an Amazon and they'll ship like the next day why won't you buy from there I it should not happen right but it does not if somebody's buying are they betting into the story of India 2 growing significantly and India one growing as well but uh but the a woman child is getting uh getting into Beauty even in India too very significant way so there is some budget of the family going into 1:51:33 beauty Beauty as a category is also growing significant that's actually a very interesting question but India too by the way in terms of beauty ends up being lipstick nail polish or Foundation but that's also three Cate three SK is not small huh very four five how does one evaluate something like Nika how does one Benchmark I'm asking cuz you both are in e-commerce you've had flip cart Udan you have Mish show if I'm an investor trying to figure out I should invest in the company like I think faloni is an exceptional entrepreneur I know her and I think if anybody can pull it off it's possibly or likely her uh she's had an exceptional past and great management and all of those things but the broader question is how big is the the e-commerce spy in India and are we betting based on the valuations of whatever I mentioned are we betting that India one and two will grow to X percentage in the next five years or 10 1:52:34 years is that the bet we are making yeah I I don't know the answer to that question and I won't even attempt but what I know is I don't think that company is a good representation of India e-commerce because very narrow in a category and very narrow in terms of the customer base they serve their average order value if I remember some 50 00 1800 2,000 something like that it's not less yeah huh but it's not it's quite high it's very high so my point is it's super high so the segment exposure and category exposure cannot be a representation of the Eon Market that's what I believe okay let's talk about Mish huh let's make it more interesting what is your valuation today valuation today our valuation this is the last one was about 5 billion okay and uh give us some metrics like some numbers and whatever is publicly yeah something we have about 14 CR people who buy from US every year about a million small businesses um in the last one year we did about 1 billion orders which is what 100 CR that's so about 100 CR orders in the last 12 months um are insane numbers 1:53:35 by the way right 14 CR people buying huh yeah and and by we sell across so horizontal platform people come and sell anything they want so about half is apparel and half is non apparel and that includes kids beauty Personal Care your electronics home and kitchen like the gross sales that happened on yeah so about like last 2020 calendar year was about 4 and a half quter to 5 billion um so which is last year and what is the margin on the top level out of this five billion you sell on average how much margin do you have why do you want to open my FR of me here right now right right I think with that kind of customers right but ticket size come 320 and that's the I'm thinking that's the problem you have to solve so that's the biggest problem correct what would that be for flip cart would be much higher again 1200 1300 maybe higher because Electronics mobile 1:54:38 phone takes the average order value quite High integrated that we didn't answer the Nika thing what are the final thoughts on a company like Nika cuz I don't have another listed player in mind what's your interest no I said like I said I don't know about the company but I I don't believe it represents India e-commerce but that's okay I I believe it's uh it's picked up the right category at the right time andly they build their own strength of the content to Commerce I think it was a very interesting way they build it uh there are negatives that uh they have attracted attention and too many players are coming in uh they need to build their own uh brand and the ecosystem which they might be doing they went into too many things now they went into B2B but I was surprised that even there I never thought beauty and fashion as a 1:55:39 adjacency will work as much but naika is not doing bad on fashion yeah they just launched that Alo yoga they they distribute of killing it that brand abroad it's it's it's it's doing reasonably quite okay in in if they able to build adjacencies it becomes an interesting story I think one thing you have to give it to them uh like as a NAA they have built the business with the discipline Unity economy so that they gone to Market and definitely the market believes in the their IPO like everybody they still holding a very high given the comparison to their revenue I think only problem is how to expand that their time uh is it the similar because the category they are in it's already n and build as a Commerce so it's very hard to say that it's a full-fledged e-commerce I will not call it as a 1:56:40 platform IED e-commerce it's a vertical definitely they are building other verticals also adjacency but it's a difficult Journey let's see if I had to like figure out Ecom let's say I'm I I have 100 rupes to invest and I want to invest in e-commerce feel like because even now more and more of what's going to come in the public markets what people say is nah now first cry someone was saying we'll go public will'll be very similar like one sector certain think that'll be the key curation with onc with many platforms no no I think that's why what's happening is these value value adding brands are going on online platforms will come and I don't know both the other platform Walmart and Amazon they will list in India unlikely so hopefully we will do it at some point in time right but I feel like that the e-commerce exposure that you keep referring to unless you take parts of all of them at least we'll have some exposure 1:57:42 otherwise all of them are they have a big aspiration so the should I be in e-commerce or is the market too saturated a career for to start a platform as a career start a platform or to be a there's no other option but to be a part of yeah I think being part of e-commerce the only way is not to be a platform right like now all the d2c brands are part of e-commerce yeah they all e-commerce and everyone so the beautiful thing that has happened because of e-commerce platforms is now personalization and localization that can happen like it was not possible ago so now people people are like finding very Niche and basically serving them so you only get discovered with a particular search term and people buy you again and again I'm saying lots of these micro d2c brands are possible so I'm saying being part of e-commerce everything that you do around selling digital products is being part of e-commerce and I believe it will only accelerate because there's no other way 1:58:42 anymore right like especially us three living in Bangalore we all from this we all products of a startup bubble which started bub last and I think to be fair like we were talking about knowing your flaws I think we're cognizant to the fact that we are byproducts of a startup bubble what happens to e-commerce once the deep discounting in a way or the marketing money which was funded by Cheap cost of capital abroad goes away like how do things change let's say the there's no funding available for growth for Indian e-commerce companies in the next three years and they have to survive with the money they have left How does each one change my mind is a very hypothetical question but I think look when you are building a business 1:59:44 you know that this much of money you need let's say plus minus you can say that I think only you can say that hey growth is the right Matrix if you are growing then investing money even though let's say profitability comes after let's say four or five I don't agree I don't agree hear me out hear me out I understand uh but if you are with those unit in your boundaries you are capturing the market share and growing I think I am that kind of a student where I'll support that but burning money and hurting the company like you burn money you get the gmbb see but see and but your unit economic is not holding you should not do that it will kill your company but you're also making an assumption that this tap is open where you continue to get money to burn money but by the way Unity economics I also feel like why unit economics why not ABA I I'll tell you why and and it's it's a great thing it's 2:00:46 a of course AA everybody is aiming for AA I'm not contesting that so I'm saying that has to be positive you should make money some C let's say growth is is an important Matrix also that's the problem I been a growth story in a way and I don't think that holds true because I'll tell you why I I explain you why after a point the growth comes at an extraordinary cost and that's what I'm saying that we should not do that if it's you will be lost in that journey of growth you want it at any cost you want to be the leader in the category and the space which you belong to I think that is so true by the way I believe so my opinion is they're multiple things there one stage of the business especially in e-commerce you need to cross a critical mass yeah that and unless you get there if you try to become profitable too soon you get into a negative spal it's okay so 2:01:46 because people take the same lesson apply across stages I don't believe it works you have to get to critical but after that I believe you need to be profitable of course I'm right so our goal is I think by the end of this year we'll become profitable because like you have 5 billion of sales now you to make sure that business becomes profitable but if I tried to do it four years ago I would have made a like a big blunder N I have a very interesting take on technology so I I always believe that technology does three or four things which different from the traditional or the old economy when it reduces space reduces time and create social interactions and like in fashion business on on digital Commerce you can do 10 Stock TS where in physical you can't do more than three three and a half you can work with less number of people you can institutionalize lot of processes and then social interaction is something digitally you can build a lot and acquire customer at much much lower cost than what physical was in physical the old economy used to advertise for 2:02:46 everybody here you can Target you can do a lot so it has lot of advantages any body will take advantages of all this thing will going to be the winner and constraint can create companies yeah yeah yeah of course I I from and lastly I also believe that unless you are getting into unless you don't have X amount of value addition done you are not in a business only yes yes but in e-commerce also if you'll see scaled business these are scaled business and that's why I was not able to answer on the naika because I was not imagining how where the scale will come from you know supply chain the same thing goes goes on because those are the principles where more and more scale you can reduce the reduce the cost I think building those capabilities where sourcing is a big thing uh in e-commerce let's say um and but retailing is sourcing but sourcing if I'll crack sourcing and definitely I'm not talking 2:03:47 about the going and having doing that math on sourcing rather than buying keeping that inventory and then Distributing and saving the money I think that's a lose maths and it will only come on certain scales when the you you involv on the production side of it interesting any final words for anybody looking to get involved in e-commerce final thoughts so thoughts so when I look at uh d2c Brands it was d2c brands are something like you are living in a neighborhood and you open the shop and you start from there and from there you grow and open to much it allows you to open to a much much larger audience so that's the way forward you can't now go and open a shop below your building it's great to get into digital Commerce and if you're lucky and if you do well if you're passionate I think 2:04:49 it's a great business to be I believe there's no other way right so I believe as I think we started in the beginning the definitions between e-commerce Commerce offline Commerce are getting blurred more and more so if you want to do anything in Commerce you have to basically figure out how to make e-commerce work this holds true for anyone who's starting a business today so I think if you want to create value I think you will become a part of this so I think instead of asking should I become part of this question is what do I need to do to really really become successful at this and I will that will happen like social figuring out influencers figuring out everything else figuring out marketplaces I I think contrary it has integrated them because you get the same product same thing earlier when people Define that when offline hey you'll get something in Delhi or in Mumbai or in big cities you'll not get in tier two or in now e-commerce made it every product is available everywhere we all agreed 2:05:49 that's become a very relevant part right figing out to sell anything so I think if you are doing Commerce online will happen for sure some people will do hybrid as well but I'm also seeing so for example 40% of sellers on misho are online only sellers they don't sell anywhere else so they have basic they became entrepreneurs for the first time because they figured out hey I can go on this platform I fig I know how to merchandise well how to price well how to figure out what trends work on this Market Marketplace and so on so people are creating businesses basically so I think that will happen more and more lots of online native sellers will come and they would have never known what does it mean to sell offline I I believe like say I can only uh finding the similarity when we have started let's say 2007 2008 the internet at that time was not even the main Channel only 8 million people have the broadband and the internet access 2:06:53 201 uh but I think taking that punt is internet is a most powerful thing and people have evolved like social I believe the 20e guy who understand much better than me and because when we have to learn talk to him and finding Commerce definitely doesn't matter which channel but it will going to happen and adopted in a most evolving way I believe the social influencers and all are a great Channel how to get use of that in look I'm not talking about supply chain I'm not talking about inventory those are given if you wanted to transport one physical Goods those will come into play and somewhere it's it's solving or solve it's evolving in own pace but getting into the consumer side of it where the consumer minds are be part of that and see how how one can be uh do those Commerce transaction uh how to influence I think that's the advice and and new channels already are merging super thank you everyone for 2:07:54 watching thank you Kish vidit and sujit thanks cheers every thanks for hosting us hi I'm nikel uh thank you for watching the podcast let us know who your favorite guest has been and who do you'd like to watch next thank you
