Transcript [EN]: Joe Rogan Experience #2324 - Amanda Knox

you again You have a book I do Yeah I hope you like it Free That's a great name Yeah Well it's it's on point Yeah It's on the nose Yes Well that that whole question of what does it mean to be free and what you know yes there's the physical like oh you're out of prison but then also is your life the thing that you expected it to be and how do you make your own freedom when you feel hemmed in by all of the things that happened to you so yeah you're connected to that forever That's always going to be a part of your life It's not like anything else that didn't really happen Like you didn't do anything and you're connected to something that you didn't really do forever For people that don't know the story Yeah Yeah We should do a little recap Recap Okay Recap friends Real quick Recap friends Um and you can go back to the episode that of Joe Rogan What number was that do you not off the top of your head if you just Google Amanda Knox you'll go "Holy shit." She'll go down a crazy rabbit hole Yes So in a nutshell what happened I was studying abroad when I was 20 years old in Peruia Italy My one of my roommates was raped and murdered by a burglar who broke into our home But I was accused of having orchestrated a murder orgy And I was sent to prison for 4 years I was sentenced to 26 years I was put on trial for eight years And it became this international scandal uh where it sort of pinged all of the buttons in all the right places This happened in 2007 So you know early 2000s when the internet was well or the internet the social media was really becoming a thing The iPhone was becoming a thing I think that that played a huge role of people sort of going into their little echo chambers and fighting online And so I think that there was yeah it it was a case that for whatever reason rose above the the level of other cases like ultimately this case was actually very simple and it wouldn't have risen to the level of international infamy were it not for the series of mistakes that the prosecution and the def and the detectives made at the very beginning by trying to pin a man's crime on me a woman Yeah Um and if anybody wants there's a documentary Yes there's a Netflix documentary Um I wrote a book called Waiting to be Heard And then more recently I wrote this book Free My Search for Meaning which covers like you know you can read it and learn about the case but it's mostly about how do you come out of an experience like that and make sense of it And then part one of the big stories in it is how I then developed a relationship with my prosecutor which I think you'll probably be in the camp of people of thinking that I'm utterly insane for having done that Maybe maybe maybe you won't I just remember that when we talked about this back in the day you were like "This motherfucker." Yeah So you've become friends with him Friend is an interesting word Um what is a friend someone else asked me that like I was like depends on how what you mean by friend Um because and they said well do you trust him and I said well I I think that at the point that we are now in our relationship um I do trust him I trust that he's telling me the truth about what he really thinks and and feels about the situation And so I feel like I have very privileged special access to the mind of the person who put me in prison And that is a very interesting uh awkward but also empowering place for me to be because one of the things that really bothered me about this experience was not understanding why it happened to me Why did this man look at a 20-year-old girl with no criminal history no motivation to commit this crime why did he look at me and think "There's my rapist and murderer." And I didn't understand it And I didn't feel like demonizing him in my mind or vilifying him in my mind was going to actually give me a satisfying answer as to the why of it all A lot of people said "Well it's just cuz he's a bad dude He doesn't care what the truth is He's just covering his ass." like these were all really simplistic ways of framing his motivations and I didn't really buy them Um so instead what I was interested in was going to the source and confronting him asking why But to ask someone why did you hurt me which I think is a really common thing that people who have been hurt want to know is they want an acknowledgement that they've been hurt and they want to understand why and they they want to know if that person's not going to hurt them anymore or not going to hurt other people Like that's really common for people who have been hurt Um the challenge is that people who hurt other people don't like to be confronted with that fact And so how do you start a conversation that's not going to immediately become adversarial and that was one of my biggest challenges But I came up with this methodology that I actually became so important to me that I tattooed it on my arm So this is it Um there are four steps And uh the first one is find common ground So it's this ven diagram Find common ground I promise you that every single person on this earth you have something in common with them Find it So I asked myself what could I and my prosecutor have in common i didn't know this man I didn't know what his history was what his background was but I did know that he like me was part of this really big scandalous in the media case And he very likely felt misconstrued or misrepresented also in the process maybe dehumanized in the process And so I reached out to him and I acknowledged that fact I said "Hey I don't know who you are I only ever encountered you in the police office and in the courtroom where you were someone who was trying to ruin my life." So you were a big scary boogeyman And I saw you in the media and I you know I've seen how the media represented you But I knowing from experience I know how that can be very misrepresentative So I said to him I want to know who you really are and I hope that you might be interested to know who I really am cuz I don't think you know who I really am I don't think that you would have prosecuted me if you knew who I really am And that was the beginning of the dialogue this like I went out of my way to acknowledge that he might have had noble motivations even if he was wrong And I think this is like a really important thing is I I wanted to give him radical benefit of the doubt Maybe just maybe this like horrible thing that happened to me could have been the result of understandable mistakes And if anything I think coming into contact with the innocence movement and criminal justice system stuff and reform all the stuff that I've learned after having gone through this experience has made me realize that like some of the most horrible things can happen and can be enacted by people who have the best of intentions And so I assumed that of him and I gave him that benefit of the doubt And as soon as I like opened that door like "Hey you hurt me but maybe that wasn't your intention Maybe your intention was something else." He filled that void with his story and his message and and what he wanted me to understand about himself And I mean one of the wildest things about this book is that I talk about like I do not sugarcoat what I went through like and especially what he did to me Like I very like clearly set out like here's the [ __ ] up [ __ ] he said about me in court Completely without evidence like totally made up [ __ ] like and it ruined my life right here's what it is Acknowledge these facts And also and also here is a person who might have had like in doing so might have been coming from a place of trying to rationalize things in his own mind which is a thing that we all do We all do on a on a regular basis We're all just sort of interpreting our reality in the way that suits us And so I and I wrote this book from my perspective I translated the entire thing into into Italian before it ever got published so that I could share it with him so that he would know what I was saying about him in public what was imminently going to come out And his response was "I have never felt more seen." That's what he told me That sounds like something a teenage girl would say Well that's an interesting observation um because it's become quite emotional um especially on his part Um I don't I I shouldn't go there too much Um you're protecting his privacy That's hilarious Yeah AG1 has been a longtime partner of the show and I'm excited to Yeah you're a very nice person You're so much nicer than me Well I don't know I've just had really bad stuff happen to me and like I don't wish bad stuff upon other people And that's a beautiful way to live your life It really is I mean that's uh what all Christians aspire to is what you're doing Yeah Uh I I guess I'm not a Christian Radical forgiveness Yeah You know and it's funny I didn't really set out for people like point to that They're like "Forgiveness forgiveness You're doing forgiveness." And I was like "Is this forgiveness or is this just communicating with him is forgiveness in some way and not having extreme anger?" Well that's the thing I do have extreme anger Like that's all part of it Um and this is where like the Buddhist in me comes out where you you can have extreme anger towards a person and at the same time hold them in your hand as this like tender fallible creature that is capable of violence against you but is also capable of being hurt Just because someone hurt you doesn't mean that they're not capable of being hurt And I certainly don't want to be in the position of hurting someone Like that's just who I am And if anything like one thing that I've communicated to him is like look I don't know if you're ever going to really wrap your head around what you did to me Um but if you do one day um I know that you're going to feel really really bad And I just want you to know that I I I don't wish suffering on you I don't Did you ask him if he had gone over any of his previous cases and wondered whether he did the same thing to other people because I don't think that's something you do once I don't think you are an ethical prosecutor who just really objectively analyzes the evidence and puts forth a case based on what you think is the facts Mhm I don't I don't think you do that your whole career And then this 20-year-old [ __ ] I think she's too cute I don't like how she's smiling Yeah there Yeah there was that element to it wasn't there well yeah I think that and I do feel like there was some kind of pornographic nature to it like I don't know like I think that men Well there's a lot of men that have like a deep resentment for beautiful women just from feelings of rejection or Yeah Okay Yeah Yeah Yeah because they are attracted to them or they find them to be beautiful or desirable and they know that that woman wants to have nothing to do with them Like they are completely repulsive And so that you you see it a lot with unfortunately unattractive men They develop a hate for women I've seen it I' I've seen it evolve over years with people that I used to be friends with you know like just constant rejection and then it becomes like [ __ ] these women and [ __ ] them They just want this like okay put yourself in their position You're gross Like what are they supposed to do try harder What are they supposed to do like be with someone that they're not attracted to to make that person feel better Like that's not what people do Like you have a short window of life Yeah Yeah you're supposed to pursue what you like and you're you know your [ __ ] hand of card sucks Sorry You know this is how it goes But that thing where you know they look at you like you have it too easy You have too many gifts There's life has given you too good a hand of cards you know and you should be punished You should be knocked down a peg You see that in particular in the media with celebrity It's a big one with celebrity women If something goes wrong like they just can't wait Oh yeah to dunk on them mock them for weight gain whatever it is For getting out of a car in the wrong way and they they were the ones who were like showing up to get up their skirt Yeah Any any sort of That stuff was on purpose Oh is it yeah I think the Paris Hilton stuff like back in the day where a lot of women were like it was like an epidemic of girls getting out and photographers just happened to be on the ground like you're a woman you've worn skirts It's not easy to look up someone's skirt if you're standing up and someone gets out there How the [ __ ] do you get down there you you'd have to be on your knees I think they were doing it on purpose I think it was a way of going viral before viral was a thing cuz it went away Like when was the last time that we had an up the skirt shot why don't you have any underwear on that seems weird Well panty lines you know that's a real thing Uh yeah sure But that's what g-strings are invented for right those still create lines my friend Depends on the dress Yes But I mean are you that concerned with lines that you want to go bearback i've not gone bear back uh at a at a premiere I have a little skirt on hopping out of a car And the way they did it it's just I think it was like uh you know the same people that had sex tapes that leaked air quotes that were engineered I mean the whole thing was it was on purpose like Sure Sure Sure Yeah But in but in terms of your of like trying to take beautiful women down a peg I think you're right I also think that something that was going on um in my case that I think you also tend to see in those situations where you're trying to take beautiful women down a peg is this idea of like pitting women against each other Um like that was a huge thing in my case where they were suggesting that you know here I was this like free-spirited but also hory you know American girl versus the uptight judgmental British girl and and therefore they hated each other and with you know with a vengeance with a lethal vengeance and then then this idea of like a murder orgy appeared where this pornographic fantasy of women ex like expressing their own violent fantasies towards each other in real life and using men as pawns in that in that game of of violent hatred towards each other I think you see that a lot um you know even in like a person that I I write about in this book who's become a a dear friend of mine is Monica Lewinsky and how I feel like people really wanted to bring her down a peg in part because they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg and the whole like p the person who actually committed the affair was sort of I mean he definitely got his part but it was all like a political game of they're trying to take down the man but they're also taking down on the women and they're especially railroading this young woman who made a mistake and it became known as the Monica Lewinsky scandal and not you know the the Bill Clinton affair or whatever like it matters what you name a thing and it seemed like the legacy of that and the person who became defined entirely by that scandal happened to be Monica the one who was the person with the least amount of power and agency in that equation and also 20 years old Yeah 23 years old Yeah Who did a very normal thing which was fall in love with a charismatic powerful man And he was handsome as [ __ ] back then Oh yeah I mean he was the president of the United States He was the president of the United States He was charismatic He was handsome He showered her with attention And it makes sense that a young inexperienced person would fall in love with him And yet she was the one who got railroaded She was the home wrecker She was the the one who became the subject of all the rap lyrics and her entire life and her entire identity became identified with this mistake she had made And that was not the same thing with the president of the United States And I think that that impulse to define women by their worst moments and to tear them down for their worst moments is um is prevalent as from what I have seen I think because they know it's so devastating to the person you know what I mean it's like there's that the bully instinct when they know that you're weak and vulnerable you know to attack you know but why to what end people are cruel cuz they've been hurt you know It's the hurt people hurt people thing you know I think it's like shot and freed just as an audience like we want we want a story They want a real life story where we get to you know passively enjoy the destruction of another human being right and also you don't know her so you're disassociated Yeah Right Like if she was your friend and you did that you'd have to be special kind of monster Like that woman Linda Trip like who did it all that's a special kind of monster right special kind of monster who trots that out to the whole world to try to take down Bill Clinton Yeah You know which didn't even work No And that's what's fascinating It it worked to destroy Monica right but also like you when you look at Bill uh Bill Clinton this uh handsome president and then you look at Linda Trip who is very unattractive that's also plays in like I want to take him down too and probably I want to take her down as well Like there's a lot of like [ __ ] [ __ ] everybody else There's a lot of that you know when you're you know you're unseen to use the same vernacular you know and then you see like other people getting attention and it's just like the fact that she did it and she knew her and she but also this is like this is the game of cards that they're playing This is House of Cards This is you know that this is literally what they do anytime they have a chance in the political realm to use any window any vulnerability anything It's the dirtiest game in the world It's a disgusting game you know and if you get sucked into it you'll find that out you know It's I don't want anything to do with it It's the most evil It's really is like when I see people that are running for president I'm like what are you doing i know Why would you do that to yourself yeah And then you have to spend the rest of your life like with you know Secret Service following you around so you can't exist in the world as a normal human being like that I do feel like there is uh you have to be a special kind of person in order to be attracted to something like that Yeah And and ironically that's the kind of person that's attracted to that in general is not the kind of person you want in a leadership position right you know which is like wow what do we do now yeah Yeah So is democracy uh completely and utterly flawed because it relies upon the ambition of uh the wrong people or heroes or legitimate heroes like someone who's like you know I'm going to tolerate this I'm going to carry the burden of this on my back because I think I can help people But does anyone ever like actually arrive at the pre like at the seat of the president as that person like I here's the question Do they stay that person because I used to think Obama was that person I really did you know I was like "Wow we got a good one you know." And then I was sad I missed out on that Yeah it was pretty cool But in retrospect you know when looking back like probably not really like probably got corrupted by the system or was corrupt originally you know and is now willing to openly lie God Yeah It's uh it's dark It's dark you know and I think um it's just a it's it's a strange social position that I don't think is manageable for anyone I don't think the human mind is prepared to be in that kind of a position of power and not have it completely distort what you are And then there's the relationships that you have to have with all these various politicians and then special interest groups and lobbyists and then foreign leaders and then yeah how do you manage all of that heads of defense contract companies like what Can I tell you a story yes please Okay So this story didn't actually make it in my book but it is one that I wanted to tell you because it it talks about how my weird relationship with other people who are in positions of power like police officers right like you know I'm a I'm an advocate of criminal justice reform Um I talk a lot about like I go and testify in front of my you know state Congress trying to get certain laws passed to protect you know innocent people And one thing that I like to point out is that I'm not anti- law enforcement Um if anything I was a victim of crime before I became a victim of the criminal justice system Like someone broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate And then I called the cops and then the cops went on to betray me And but that doesn't mean that there isn't like I'm not one of those you know [ __ ] all the police we don't need them you know abolish the whole system That's not what I believe Um but as as someone who has had this complicated experience with police um I don't really know what to do when something bad goes down And I want to tell you a story about something bad that went down Um it was in LA I was staying at a friend's house with my husband and our two kids We were doing work down there and our friends were not there But um in the middle of the night we hear someone yelling out in the you know out in the street We think there's some drunk guy out there but it gets closer and closer and closer until finally there is a huge bang Um and my husband gets up in his tidy whiteies and says one thing to me call the police before he marches downstairs We were upstairs in the second story and we hear a bang We hear yelling He goes down there in his underwear and I don't know if the last thing I'm ever going to hear from my husband at that point is call the police which is an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me And my my you know infant son is crying My you know 2-year-old daughter at the time is going "What's going on?" And I'm trying to calm him while reassure her while looking around the room thinking "How do I barricade a door and can I jump out of a window with two small children?" All of that before I think dial 911 because the last time that I dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for help I got thrown into prison I realize that there's nothing I can do to protect my kids So I call 911 and eventually you know my husband is able to get this intruder to leave the house Um the police arrive and I have a very strange encounter with them because they are very nice to me and I was not expecting that and they are very nice to my daughter and they give her a nice little you know police badge and I'm sitting here thinking great now I'm going to have to throw a police themed birthday party for her cuz now she's going to be super into police and I'm just like what is happening to my life and I'm scared that they're going to recognize me and I'm scared they're going to think maybe she faked a break in like all of that is going on in my head and I don't know how to resolve that of you know somebody broke into I have you know broke into my home once murdered my roommate broke into the place I was staying again thankfully didn't murder anybody but like how do I make sense of my relationship with people who are empowered to protect me but also are empowered to hurt me What do I do about that you tell me Joe What do I do there's no way I could know what's going through your mind You know that the experience that you had is no one can even pretend to have those thoughts in their head because this is not just paranoid fantasy This is this is your actual lived experience for years Yeah that's a good question What what had happened like the bang was it someone kicking down the door yeah he had kicked in the door through the deadbolt What was the yelling the yelling was he was just uh schizophrenic Yeah He he thought that he someone had stole that house from him and he was yelling for some name of a person who didn't live there Clearly was just like either confused or mentally ill in some capacity Um but and thankfully not armed but like my husband didn't know when he walked down the stairs in his underwear without any any like he grabbed a broom on his way down and that was he was between putting himself and a broom between whoever this person was who had just kicked in the front door through the deadbolt and his family Um and that might have been the last time I ever saw him you know and I did not know what to do I try to like joke about it now where I actually did a standup bit about it a while back about how I was like testing my butt to see if it was bouncy enough to like jump out of the window and bounce But like I when I think back on it it's just it's still scary you know um and and I don't I don't like how I feel right now that when I'm scared I'm supposed to call the police but I'm also scared to call the police Jesus And so you know when I go and do advocacy work for you know I'm I'm now on the board of an organization called the Innocence Center um innocencecenter.org which by the way just got a bunch of federal funding uh taken away Thanks Elon Um you'd think that they would be interested in supporting organizations that clean up the messes of the criminal justice system but apparently not Um so if you want to support us innocencecenter.org How did what what happened that they got their funding taken away what what was the circumstances like uh I mean there there's a federal funding that is designed for innocence organizations and I think what I heard is that there are certain words that sort of became taboo within the um administration that if you were using these words or these terminologies that they associate with like DEI that then they're that sort of puts you on the list of being cut for federal funding And one of those words was like the word fair And in a organization that is interested in justice and for in getting innocent people out of prison the word fair is going to come up quite a bit So is it just an algorithm they're just scanning the mission statement of whatever these organizations are Yeah I mean I think that that's a first a first step is they'll just use this They're going to use algorithms and AI to help them identify potential things to cut And I think as a as a new innocence organization we were considered not worthy of the federal funding that we have relied on and to help innocent people And now are you one of the founders of this organization me no I'm on the board Um but yes this is um formerly the California Innocence Project that has since sort of turned into the Innocence Center But you'll see you're seeing this all across the board of innocence projects of getting their federal funding taken away And there's no accusations of impropriy or misuse of funds or high salaries for certain individuals or nothing Nope Just it's deprioritized because I think we're considered leftist organizations potentially I don't know Um but I know that like I have always thought that innocence and getting and justice were bipartisan issues and I thought that we had been making great you know strides in in sort of welcoming in both liberal and conservative partners in this ongoing fight But because these sort of these things disproportionately impact people of color you're going to see language around that that acknowledges that fact And I think that that has been sort of put in we are innocence organizations are now being put into DEI camps and we're being stripped of funding And I think that that's I hope that that's an oversight issue um and that they're going to recognize the mistake that they're making But as it stands right now innocence organizations not just the one that I'm associated with are scrambling to get the funding that they were promised to continue doing you know doing the things that cost money like filing you know filing all of their work and and going through all of the case work and doing the DNA tests and doing investigations to see if you can reach the witnesses that maybe have changed their stories in all these years takes a lot of money and resources to prove a person's innocence You have to reinvestigate a case and we're we don't we don't have the funding that we we used to This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter Speed Dubin Mhm And you know Josh I mean I've never met him personally but he's with the he was with the Innocence Project and now he's with the Ike Prutter Center for Legal Justice and it's same kind of work Ironically Ike Prutter is very close friends with Trump Huh And so I mean I would have thought that that would have been of interest to Trump considering I think it's a baby with the bathwater type deal where there's a lot of what you would call almost like slush fund NOS where they're inappropriately moving funds around and doing stuff And I don't know if you ever seen any of Mike Benz's work but he essentially says that US A is really there to do things that are too dirty for the CIA So the extraordinary amount of money that was being moved around there's a certain percentage of it that was inappropriately being used I imagine so Yeah Yes An enormous percentage There's it's a lot of m But unfortunately there's a lot of good that also is coming out of that money And that's what's difficult That's like you know when you round up uh all the quote unquote gang members right and you fly them to El Salvador are you sure yeah They're all gang members or do you care right Exactly I think do you care or is it just like we're just here to clean things up and if And if we throw it in make an omelette right our are innocent people the price of us getting to be efficient Don't become a monster when you're fighting monsters Yeah And that's what I think we're we're brushing up against right now And um and as someone who really is like just interested in keeping especially this issue like this is a human like we all we all should be on the same side about this Um yeah Why like why is it being turned into this a left or right issue and well maybe I can get this in front of Josh and he can present it to some people and you know have them reconsider their position That would be great I I would you know and if you need put me in contact like I would be happy to you know one of the things through working with Josh and you know just through this podcast we've gotten a lot of people released um that were wrongfully convicted and you know when you go over the amount of corruption that's involved and I I think there's an issue with uh human beings whenever there's a binary position a one or a zero You win or you lose Yes The adversarial system where it's like I have to be I have to win this side and I cannot at all like acknowledge some truth that might be to the other side Like and then you have this game where you hire like if you are a guilty person you hire the best defense attorneys that probably even know you're guilty but their job is to get you off by any means necessary to Well their job is to make the government prove your guilt right that's what a technically a defense attorney who's really good right but that's not really what they're doing They're trying to get you out of jail Yeah Yeah Of course Yeah Yeah The goal being if you can't actually prove it then well their goal is to win as often as possible so that they're the person like this this is the guy you want you know although I have talked to some really interesting defense attorneys um the defense attorneys who represented Larry Nasser for example um famously for those who don't remember was uh molesting young gymnasts Do you remember him the Olympics guy Yeah Yeah Yeah And I I interviewed them because it was two women who represented him And so a lot of people were like "How dare you represent this man as a woman how could you?" And their position was "Well we didn't represent him to prove him innocent We we had him plead guilty to these crimes We just feel that everyone deserves to have a you know a defender We're we're we're defenders We we represent people in in the law." and they were getting like demonized for even taking him on as a client And I thought that was interesting because they weren't trying to get him off They were just trying to have to to represent due process And I I felt like that was a really interesting case of people confusing the the what what is the role of a defense attorney and I think you're right like some defense attorneys really don't care if their clients are are guilty or innocent because they are also in this adversarial system and so they are also in this position of just wanting to win and and wanting to make the lives of you know law enforcement difficult and they're willing to throw victims under the bus in the process Like I've had really frank conversations with um with friends of mine in the in the innocence world where they talk about how they were trained to just destroy a victim in order to to diminish their credibility in court and and to really put them in a a really bad position so they didn't want to pursue justice for themselves And I think that and they look back and go "Oh my god I can't believe that that's how I was trained to be a defense attorney." But like that was just part of the game And I think that's where this whole course of justice gets completely distorted because it's like well what is the what is the point of all of this like it should be about like arriving at the truth and then doing and then having there be like some recognized consequences for acknowledging what really happened we need to address the issue which is somebody got hurt by someone else What do we do now what and instead it's become well I'm going to win like I'm on this team you're on this team fight Let's see who wins And as a result the the whole issue of truth gets distorted and and becomes about making the best story that that captures the people's attention And I think I mean that was a huge lesson for me was realizing that like the truth didn't matter Like nobody cared about the truth They cared about the story and was it a story that spoke to them and was it a story that lingered for them and that's you know an ongoing thing that I I I write about is like okay here's this crazy story that is not true that took over my life and that still has this huge role like I'm still in conversation with that crazy story that was written about me and and the fact that like my entire identity is now wrapped up in the death of my friend that I had nothing to do with and I'll forever be defined by because it's such a cap captivating story and because the prosecutor was dead set on winning and wasn't necessarily interested in the truth what he says and it's very it's again it goes back to like what are we telling ourselves and what is what is the cognitive bias and I think this is where it gets super interesting because winning is interpreted in some people's minds as doing their duty right like the way that my prosecutor has always talked about it with me is that he maintains that he was doing his duty He this was his job His job was to make a case that made logical sense to him based upon certain premises and then to win that case in court That was his job That was his duty And he believes that he was doing the right thing because that was that's what he was trained and incentivized to do In the same way that like you know journalists if you ask journalists back who covered the case back in the day they'll be like well we were doing our job our job was to sell the best story that we could to our audience and right and but and so that's when it gets like [ __ ] up cuz like how how have our institutions that we've relied on to be truth seeeking institutions been corrupted from the inside by ultimately what is a question of like money or or power Um when politics gets brought into the the equation with criminal justice suddenly you know your prosecutor is now wanting to win cases not because they're the right cases to win but because they want to be elected Like all of that gets distorted and and the the motivations behind all our institutions become warped Well the but the with the media it's even more disgusting because it's not about politics It's literally just about getting people to pay attention to their story right and buy newspapers or click on links right that's it Right And then they hold then they hold their the audience accountable for the kinds of stories that they are then incentivized to write They say "Well you know I wouldn't been writing the story if you weren't clicking on it." And and it's like this vicious cycle That's crazy It's like I wouldn't have robbed your house if you didn't have nice stuff Exactly Exactly That's [ __ ] crazy But like that's how if you're in that little echo chamber of a system and that's what your reward structure is Of course that's what you're going to end up delivering if you're somebody who's not who doesn't have the introspection to question like okay wait what am I doing and what is the point of all of this and do you have certain principles but again the people who rise to the top are maybe the ones who are willing to question those principles in order to achieve certain ends Yes Yeah And then there's also the problem with you're working for a corporation if you're in the news If you're not an independent journalist who has like rock solid personal ethics you're working for a corporation and your job is to make money for your shareholders ultimately And the way you do that is to get as many people to click on those links as possible And maybe the person who's on the ground has a certain vision for what they want their like on the ground reporting to do But then once it gets in the hands of editors and other editors like it becomes completely warped from the thing that they were originally reporting on because the person who's over here is so divorced from the actual on the ground story and they know instead the story that's going to sell Yeah So yeah it's dark I mean it's the same sort of distortion Excuse me Salute Sorry It's the same sort of distortion um with when you were talking about prosecutors um just trying to win It's this it's this thing where and ultimately it's it's it's a a severe distortion of what the best case scenario is The best case scenario is prosecutors don't care about winning They care about finding truly guilty people And in cases where someone whether they uh withhold evidence that could have exonerated an innocent person or whether they distort things or twist things around in order to win they should be forever removed from that system You should never be allowed to do that But this is Kla Harris did that and rose to be vice president and almost became president and she is absolutely guilty of doing that Yeah I know it's she tried to withheld withhold DNA evidence that would have exonerated someone I know she was not a popular choice among the innocence community I'll tell you that Oh yeah No Josh Dubin broke her down on my show but when she was here president No Okay No No No No broke down what she was guilty of when she was a prosecutor in California Yeah No it it wasn't And that's why I was so mad that our party never actually gave us a choice Right Right There was no primary No there was no primary They were just like "Here's the person now." And and if you don't vote for her you're a bad person Exactly You're a fascist Yes Yeah Okay Yeah No it was that that this whole But then again that's also just trying to win Yeah It's the same kind of thing It's just the the focus is on winning Yeah At what cost i mean and then that's a very slippery slope because if you're willing to accept that guess what guess what that that slope keeps slipping Mhm And then next thing you know you know yeah you don't have breaks right you have to put a [ __ ] blinder on because you're you're part of the problem You're part of what's destroying society So then you have to like reshape your own personal narrative and lie to yourself about what you're doing and why you're doing it right a little bit of like self brainwashing Yeah Um and that fascinates me like in conversations with my prosecutor how how has he convinced himself that he's the good guy and and how has that changed when I have approached him not as an adversary but as someone who is uh I wouldn't say like tolerant because I've never put myself in a position of sort of saying "Oh what you did was not a big deal." Like when I approached him I was like "What you did was a big deal and you were wrong and you hurt people." But like acknowledging his humanity and the complexity of him and acknowledging that like he's not an evil person Um well what is evil intentional malice Maybe that seems like he was doing it intentionally if he was paying attention to the facts of the case I mean there was DNA evidence There was all sorts of stuff that pointed to you not being the guilty party and they ignored that If that's not evil I mean what he did it's interesting um he wrote a whole book about the case and he talked about how when he first arrived at at the scene he immediately knew that it was a conspiracy because he looked at the the broken window how the person had actually broken into our home and said "There's no way zero chance that a burglar would have broken in to a house this way." He just was like 100% convinced that immediately that the break-in was staged And if you take that if if you and your brain truly believe that then what logically follows is a lot of what he then came up with Well someone in the house is trying to cover up for a crime that they were involved in Who lives in that house well there are three other girls one of whom was in Rome one of whom is another Italian girl who was with her boyfriend and friends and one of whom is the American girl who was with her boyfriend that night but who also happened to be the one who called the police and brought attention to the house So maybe because we found her at the scene of the crime may like all of it sort of starts to like make logical sense if you begin with a false premise How did he reconcile that in the book in his book yeah I mean he he makes logical leaps So he goes "Okay well then we discovered that you know all of this DNA of the person who actually committed the crime right like you know they they finally get the DNA back and it's all pointing to this guy who has a history of breaking and entering and and aggression towards women." And he doesn't go "Oh no we made a mistake." He goes "Oh how can now he be involved in this thing that I know Amanda's involved in because I know the break-in was staged." And you know like so these the this is how a person with good with genuinely good intentions can can have false beliefs that then logic from which one can logically derive an insane story that requires like him to now believe like one of the things that I pointed out to him that just like drives me nuts that he continues to like somehow hang on to is this idea that I was in a threesome with like I was in a three-way way relationship with my actual boyfriend Raphael and this burglar Rudy GDay And I was like "Where are you coming up with that?" And he was like "Well whenever I interviewed Rudy like he talks about interviewing you know interrogating Rudy Rudy always seemed to have affectionate things to say about he always seemed to like be interested in you." And from that I can logically deduce that you guys had a relationship And I was like we we like I didn't even know his name There's no record of us ever communicating with each other No one ever like saw us hanging out with each other Like what are you talking about and he's like well if he was involved in the crime and you're involved in the crime and he's sort of talking about you know you in an affectionate way then logically it makes sense that you were in this you know three-way relationship with Raphael and Rudy And I'm like that's not true And he was like "Well that's what it's that's what made logical sense to me at the time." I think the issue is an egotistic idiot that has power That's really what I think it is Certainly someone who has a belief and a confidence in their own abilities as a logical thinker And I think anyone who is in that kind of position has to believe in themsel in that kind of way But not just that like you have too much power Like there's not enough oversight You have too much power And then you say something and if your initial assertion is incorrect you then have to defend it So then you do mental gymnastics to try to defend it at the expense of your [ __ ] life Yes He was willing to put you away forever Like he had to know at some point in time in the back of his stupid brain He had to know that you were innocent and he was willing to push forward and concoct some sort of a three-way relationship narrative that he still sticks to [ __ ] that guy Well and and sometimes that's what my brain says You know sometimes I Your brain should say that you know i mean forgiveness is really important but some people you just can't forgive Like some people it's like no you need to come to grips with the fact that you're a piece of [ __ ] That's what's wrong here It's not me forgiving you and you having this hall pass to just to be a piece of [ __ ] because you had this theory that you're still accusing me of No that's that's not you're bad at what you do And sometimes people are bad at what they do Sometimes you get bad teachers you get bad cops Sometimes you get a bad electrician your house catches fire Some some people suck at what they do and to like have this like eternal forgiveness like sometimes it's not smart to do that Well certainly And I and I think that's He's still working as a prosecutor No no he's retired He he has retired He should be in jail Like literally I do not wish jail upon him I don't Okay that's sweet But that's crime Like what he did it was not just a crime but it was a conspiracy Yeah I I um I would have to say that I agree that there I always wanted to I always wondered where the adults were in the room like you know the whole first two years of my imprisonment I was like this is all a huge mistake and it's really obviously a huge mistake and when are when are like the mommies and daddies going to show up and say okay kids stop your squabbbling like let's straighten things out there's no mommies and daddies there are no mommies and daddies That's the thing that freaked me out is like we're all adults now and this is all we are We're just a bunch of screaming toddlers just screaming at each other constantly And here I am now I feel in a way trying to mother my prosecutor through his you know psychological tantrums Um which is a weird position to be in Um because now that I've you know developed the relationship that I've developed with him I I I like I care about him Like I don't think that you can I I set out to understand him I wanted to understand him but in the process of like really understanding a human being and having them like be really open to you I don't know I feel like you inevitably begin to care about this person even in their you know flawed fragility as a human being And so on the one hand I'm very angry at him to this day and on the other hand I I care about him and I have to give him some props He didn't have to respond to me He didn't have to meet with me He didn't have to sit there and hear me talk about how he had [ __ ] up my life and he shouldn't have I did not like it's not that like me being kind to him does not mean me tolerating injustice and it does not mean me not setting boundaries and it does not mean me sugarcoating what really happened like he knows what I think really happened and he says "Well you know we can disagree about our perspectives in some in some ways but ultimately what matters is that you reached out to me and saw me as a human being and in response I like I also inevitably came to see you as a human being and I care about you and and so in a Hey like we're still in this awkward dance of like one part of us is stuck in that adversarial system and one part of us is in a non you know adversarial very like accepting of all the things space and we're paradoxically existing in both of them at the same time And I think that that's just kind of how life is M like you know one of the paradoxes of life is that like if you really just sit down and and sit with yourself and your life just the way it is right now If you really do just like notice like right now you and me here we are talking We are okay You and me we are good And also there's still [ __ ] up [ __ ] in my life and there's still [ __ ] up [ __ ] in your life and and things could be better and all of those things can be true at the same time like you know I'm still fighting to clear my name in Italy I don't know if you have you kept up with like the latest with my case Oh yeah So still so I've been cleared of like all the crazy you know horrible murder orgy all of that stuff cleared The thing that remains and this is just the bane of my [ __ ] existence is when they cleared me of having anything to do with the crime They left open the possibility that I was present when the crime occurred And I believe the reason that they did this was because they wanted to find me guilty of something And the thing that they found me guilty of was the way lesser crime on the list of all the crimes that were there which was slander They accused me of knowingly and willingly falsely accusing an innocent person of having committed this crime because during my interrogation I was coerced into implicating myself and my boss Patrick Leumba of of committing this crime and I immediately retracted it all of that But that was one of the things that they were holding me accountable for And they to this day I am still convicted in Italy of knowingly and willingly accusing an innocent man And for me to knowingly and willingly accuse this innocent man I would have to have been at the house and known who really was the murderer at the moment that I falsely accused this innocent person like I would have had to know that he was definitively innocent for this to be the case And for that to be true I would have to be physically present at the crime even if I was not participating in it So the legal standing right now to this day is that I was there and that when I was interrogated I knowingly and falsely accused an innocent person I appealed this by the way to the European Court of Human Rights and they ruled in my favor They said that because I had been denied the right of to have an attorney and an an interpreter when I was being interrogated that none of that should ever have been I should never have been convicted of that And I took that back to Italy I took that ruling back to Italy And they overturned it I was actually acquitted of that for a second but then sent back for retrial recently And recently yeah this is 18 years later recently was put back on trial for that This was last year and I was found guilty again Oh my god On the basis not even of the statements that the police like coerced me into signing but on my retraction So I hand wrote a retraction of those statements that the police coerced me into signing And I was like I'm so confused I can't testify Like I I I don't know if Patrick did it or not Like I just don't know And they said "Well even a confused statement where you're not sure what the truth is if you were physically present of the crime is is slander and you falsely accused an an innocent man that you knew to be innocent." And so but they have no proof that you were there Exactly So we're in this like cyclical thing where they're like they just don't want to admit that they [ __ ] up That's what I think And I'm at this point where I'm like okay now what because I'm definitively convicted of this thing And like the legal truth in this case does not represent the actual truth in this case Are they trying to protect themselves from some sort of a civil suit maybe Um I think even more than that I think they're trying to protect themselves from admitting that they tortured an innocent girl Oh my god Oh my god So so they can say well she is guilty She did do this She's guilty And so it's not crazy for us to think that she might have been involved in the in the murder because here she is at least she probably lied about being there and Jesus Christ And all they were ever able to do is prove that I lived in the house that this happened in Like sure my DNA is in my house It's not anywhere near Meredith's body or where the crime occurred But they're saying that like I was there and it's sort of this like cyclical sort of reasoning like Amanda said she was therefore she was therefore she said she was you know like it's this like insane cyclical reasoning and I'm at the point where I have to ask myself like how do I fight this and if so do I and that's where this whole question of freedom comes in like do I do I have to definitively like prove my innocence in a court of law to feel that I have definitively proven my innocence or do I need to definitively prove my innocence in the court of public opinion in order to feel free or to feel like I like I'm not regardless of whether I definitively prove my innocence or not like am I ever going to be free of this is this ever going to be not touching me and impacting my life and the answer that I've come to is well no in the way that like any of our experiences have come to define us as human beings and in a way it's like another way of reframing this is okay these are my credentials now like I went to the I didn't go to four years of P master's degree in poetry I got a master's degree in whatever this is being [ __ ] you know like you know and and so like and I've learned things from this I've learned I've learned things about the criminal justice system I like I can see things that need to be fixed that have are really common sense fixes to like it There is no reason why we shouldn't be just recording any kind of communication Like anytime that anyone is being questioned by anyone in law enforcement there's no reason why we shouldn't be recording it And I'm not talking about even just suspects because like there's been a whole you know world of advocacy around like recording interrogations right like custodial interrogations and especially um making it so that police officers can't lie to you when you're being interrogated because that was a huge thing that impacted me as like a young confused like overwhelmed human being is police lying to me and telling me that they have proof that I was there when the crime occurred and it made me like feel like I was insane And so like the problem of of police lying to you is not just that it's like a bullying technique but it it warps your sense of reality and you start to question yourself And so there's psychological research to show that there are very negative consequences for police lying to you during interrogation But at the very least if you record it you can sort of track how that is impacting uh a person who is being who is a suspect The wild west of all of this is eyewitnesses or anyone else who is being questioned by police because there's no Miranda rights The like as a person who is being questioned by police you don't really have rights like you don't you don't have like one of the things that they say in my case is that I never had the right to an attorney because I wasn't a suspect I was a witness And so like to this day in Italy there's like this resistance to the idea that I was like coerced into I was that I was even interrogated at all because there's this like little loophole where they say oh you weren't interrogated you were interviewed Oh you weren't interviewed you were questioned They just changed the language but what's ultimately happening is the same thing you are stuck in a room with a law enforcement officer who may or may not be lying to your face and bullying you and you don't know if you're free or not to go because the door is closed and it doesn't feel like it And so for me I think that if you consider how many wrongful convictions happened because of misidentification by witnesses or the number of times that like witnesses say "Well I wasn't really sure that it was him but the police sort of coaxed me or pressured me into saying it was him and let sort of made it known to me that it was him." Like there are lots of things that are happening behind closed doors that we really don't have an excuse for not fixing when every single one of us has a recording device in our pocket at all times And the amount of resistance to like getting just really common sense changes like that to happen from like law enforcement lobbies is just so frustrating as someone who like shows up again and again and again to like try to make because it seems like this adversarial thing like we're we're all on the same side It's not like victim's rights versus defendants rights It's not law enforcement versus you know innocence It's like we're all on the same page Why can't we just acknowledge a true thing um that's been one of my biggest frustrations in this world is like feeling like we should all be on the same side and we should be making common sense changes and that don't you know but it's the way the system is structured you know there's two sides trying to win and when you lose you don't like to lose and so people would cheat to win But like lose what are you losing you know but they're playing a game I mean it's your life and it's other people's lives It's innocent people's lives but it's also guilty people's lives Like but why doesn't like a law enforcement officer look at something that happened to me actually you know what i take that back Plenty of law enforcement people have talked to me and said like "We are so sorry for what happened to you." The ones who weren't involved That's the problem The the problem is do you look away when you are involved you know how many law enforcement officers will stick their neck out if they think their partner overstepped their boundaries and got someone to admit to something that maybe they did or didn't do withheld evidence that may or may not have exonerated someone Like there's steps along the way on the road to evil right and and no one gets rewarded for sticking their neck out or for holding their friends accountable Yeah you get exa I mean you you get excommunicated from your tribe it's very dangerous you know the so how do we motivate any other like how do you it's a real problem it's a it's a giant conundrum it's a real problem in in the way this the system is structured and the feeling that you have to like in order to do the right thing you just have to switch sides like that really bothers me also because like one thing that I have I would love to see more of is more of like a collaboration between victim's rights advocates and innocence rights advocates Um but like oftent times you see us sort of pitted against each other as if like you know I've always felt that the the criminal justice system never did enough for victims um that like the only compensation that victims are really given is the idea that you're going to punish the perpetrator And I've always wanted to know how is the system how is the system going to help the victim rebuild their life and take back and like reclaim what can be reclaimed of their experience and and and be uplifted And well that's supposedly where the civil supposedly but like you're you're you're suing the person who committed the crime and are you ever actually going to get any money from them are you like Well sometimes money is awarded to families by the state you know there's those but I mean is that enough like is money's is that enough you know I don't think so I think that people need more support than that What is the support though like what would make it right well I think overhaul the system Yeah Really the only way to to truly make it right is to find I mean if you're if you're a person like I think your approach to this all this radical acceptance and forgiveness is very very very beautiful It's it's amazing that you can do it It's amazing that you think the way you think And you know I used you as an example the other We're having this conversation about um uh horrible things that have happened to people that have made that person a beautiful person because you you went through this insane thing but on the other end of it you came out this like really interesting person Oh very much You really are You I used you as an example of things that don't break you but that you would never want to wish on anyone else But then the result of that is this person comes out extraordinary Yeah I mean that's a lot of the obstacles the way kind of stuff I mean it's a lot of stuff that I write about in the book actually is one of the things that my goal with this book was to try to like yes what happened to me is like oh crazy story happened to a girl one time but also there are like universal lessons and truths that I've derived from my from my experience that make me and when I communicate them they make me feel less ostracized or less like singled out as a human being And one of those is like there is opportunity in every tragedy Um and I think that what my tragedy challenged me to do was to not be broken by it And my definition of being broken by it was coming out of it A person who was angry and and embittered and and diminished by this experience And I just the the rebellious side of me was like "Fuck that What matters to me what matters to me is the truth and is compassion curiosity compassion Those are things that I genuinely care about and having the courage to approach human beings and situations that are painful and that are wrong with the open heart that it requires to have compassion and genuine curiosity That is what I wanted to define me I did not want this horrible experience to define me on its terms I wanted to define me on my own terms And I think the challenge that any one of us has is remembering what even our terms are when we're feeling sort of overwhelmed with the the existential crisis of it all And and the and the and the I think the one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they are stuck They are fixated They dwell on the life that they should have lived instead of acknowledging and accepting that this is the life that they are living And when you are acting in the world as if you are living the life that you should have lived you are inevitably becoming ineffective Like if I were to approach the world and be like "My prosecutor never should have done this to me and and my I I I never should have gone to prison and people never should have villainized me in the press." I would just find myself debilitated utterly debilitated by the fact that reality is other than that And I would just find myself angry and and and and bitter about it all And instead I go "Well all of that happened Now what and by accepting reality and life as it is I can now become in a more effective agent in my life I don't want to live my life acting and feeling and thinking in ways that are not going to be effective And so instead what happens and the radical acceptance of it all is truly coming from a place of not I'm not trying to be Christian about it I'm just trying to like not be the completely and utterly overwhelmed and dis-empowered person that I was when I was in prison Like I I lost so much I I had so little control of my life And I think in the end all of us do I feel like I weirdly had a midlife crisis when I was 20 because my entire life fell apart or I was on I was I was put on this this track this train that just like left the station and was going on its own and there was really nothing I could do to stop it And so okay now what that's a great way to put it Like you're on a train that you can't stop Yeah I mean what you've done is admirable I mean the the the approach that you take is really I mean if is it admirable is it self- serving like is it just like it's not self- serving I mean obviously it's self- serving but that's a good thing I mean you're serving yourself in the best possible way and to to not be completely defined by you're being victimized You you've risen above it I mean just the fact that you contacted the prosecutor and and tried to reach out and talk to him as a human being and try to find out and accept him where he's at Yeah Like this is where you're at Well he's a kind of a victim in in a way because he shouldn't have had the kind of power that he had uh he there's no way to tell like there there's no no checks and balances that are put in place to make sure the person's ego is not overwhelming them to the point where their initial idea of a conspiracy this and he's also not in a vacuum like there were other people around him who were like building building him up and supporting that story and and you know like well it's also like he's in a position of power they're underneath him you know there's this weird structure that's in place yeah All of that can be true Yeah All that and I can accept that as also true And I think there's this like weird resistance that people have to accepting the context around a person Maybe because you you realize that if you accept the context around the person that feeling of self-righteousness that you're ultimately grasping onto dissipates because it does inevitably dissipate But I think that's again a per that's a symptom of someone dwelling on the life that they should have lived right instead of accepting the life that they have right um and I just find that to be a waste of time It is not just a waste of time it's the opposite of self- serving It kind of destroys you from within because you know it's not true right Yeah And so you're bullshitting yourself as you're bullshitting the world and that's who you are now Yeah that I think that is a scary trap that victims can fall into is like how you then become selfdestructive in your own mind as a result of someone having been destructive towards you That is I think that is the deepest tragedy of of hurt is how it can then become implosive And I did not want to implode I was scared to implode I saw a lot of people around me in prison imploding and I did not want that to be me It's insane mental resolve to not and that's it's the trap that most people are going to fall into and in a to a lesser extent he's a victim as well He's a victim of his own actions and he'll it will haunt I mean he's defined by that as well Now particularly that everybody knows that you're innocent and that you you've been proven innocent And then in the retrial you got proven again And so that's him That's over his head Everywhere he goes he wrongly prosecuted and jailed you for a murder you did not commit And he has to live with that every day when he wakes up and he looks in the mirror That's who you are [ __ ] forever And you could dance around you know I was doing my job and this you can you can have you know that's that's where you kind of try to find some sort of No no you did this thing You were wrong you your ego whatever the [ __ ] it was that led you to come up with the initial theory and then try to use confirmation bias to reinforce it at every step of the way That's you And if if he doesn't admit that he will go to his grave haunted And I I think what's a really interesting thing for me is discovering what can come from approaching someone recognizing that So when I approached him I approached him in a really unconventional way right like I'm trying to find common ground with this person I'm trying to I very I'm deeply genuinely curious about this person I am primed to feel compassion for this person because that is just the mental and intentional space that I put myself in approaching him and the surprising dividends that arise from that because I think everyone is evolving No one is static Even he is on his own journey He's on his own path and I'm not in control of his path But that doesn't mean that I can't be a very compelling influence of all the people in the world who could be nice to him and have that have an impact on him Me and like recognizing like I didn't really fully comprehend that until I sat down with him and like I had sort of in my mind I I realized what it looked like from my position like here's this person who had this overwhelming impact on my life and and to this day like continually like this story that he made up like took over my life and continues to take over my life Like this is what I'm going to live with for the rest of my life is because of him This person who has had this outsized influence on my well-being and my my personhood and my existence this guy I sit down across from him and I'm nice to him and I walk away from that encounter realizing that his well-being depends on me much more so than my well-being depends on him And I think because deep down he understands that there is this dynamic that you know whatever stories he can tell himself about what happened he was the one who was in power and I was the one who went to prison And for me to be kind to him I didn't have to do that He had never had it happen before It was unheard of And as a spiritual person he experienced it in a spiritual way Me I came out of that experience feeling like a [ __ ] superhero I have never felt more powerful in my life than when I sat across from him and was kind to him And it didn't matter what he said or what he did because I showed up And that was I was not expecting that to happen That was not how I expected to feel It surprised me But like it had such an impact on me that I felt like I had discovered something about about trauma and and about healing and and about people and dynamics and in a world that is so conflicted and where the people are you know not building bridges they're blowing them up I was like I wanted to remind people of what happens when you when you take a chance and you take a stand Yeah Well that kind of kindness is rewarded by the universe and that was the feeling that you got like that you were on the right path to like the best possible person that you could be What would the best possible version of you do and you did that and then you had that feeling because of that That was the universe telling you right this is the best thing you can do You could yell at that guy and call him a piece of [ __ ] and slap him in the face and feel justified in doing so And you would be and that might even feel a little good in a way but it wouldn't feel like that good Yeah Negativity always no matter what leaves you with this residue this like icky even if you're correct This just like slime that's on the psychic slime right that's on you no matter what Yeah And that's your power that you could sit across this person and treat them with compassion and that's why you felt that way You know it's like have you ever felt that way i've never had anything remotely like your situation But you've had you've had encounters with people like I don't think you have to have as devastating of a situation to like be in a position to know that you're doing the right thing in a moment Like for instance when my husband got up in his whitey tidies and walked down the stairs to put himself between me and my fam and his family and this crazy guy I feel like maybe he felt that in that moment like total clarity of purpose and it didn't really matter what happened because he was doing the thing that had to be done in that moment And there was no confusion I think that like when I talk about it with him today like to this day he's just like I was just not confused I just knew exactly what I needed I didn't even think it it was that flow state even that they talk about like how when like you you and the universe are moving in the exact in in sync Yeah And that that was my version of it That was his version of it And I think that all of us have the opportunity to glimpse that in our lives And I'm just curious if you've ever felt like you were moving in sync with the universe I try to be Yeah But again I haven't You still feel kind of slimy Well I've had moments where I haven't I've had moments where I was very negative and attacked back and I never feel good about it You know it's one of the reasons why I don't engage with people online that are negative I just I don't you know especially particularly like the lowest level of it is social media you know uh I'm not interested in conflict I'm not interested in it I don't want to do it You know even if someone has negative things to say about me I'm not really interested in engaging I don't think it's valuable You know I think it's a trap Yeah But it's not the same situation as what you were in I don't know how I would be I would cuz the other danger is like you know I I don't want to consider myself above criticism say like that's I think the the other flip side of that of like of having confidence is potentially having the confidence that my prosecutor had when was he feeling in sync with the universe when he was prosecuting me did he clearly not There's no way No That but that's not confidence That's ego Confidence is an objective analysis of all the facts Doing the right thing having a rock solid ethical and moral foundation and knowing you're doing the right thing and knowing you can do it That's confidence What he had was ego You know this desire to you know when people are in a position like that where people's freedom hangs on your decisions and what you do and what you don't do and then you do it for so many years and you see so many people prosecuted you just get calloused about it You see it with doctors where doctors don't you know they they have this some not all some doctors develop this very callous feeling whether someone lives or dies they don't care anymore they're so used to people dying you know I mean there's doctors that do surgeries that are completely unnecessary just because they want the money you know we were talking the other day about this guy who is a oncologist who um treated people with chemotherapy who did not have cancer because he wanted the money Wow And it was he was convicted It was like I think it was some insane number of people took this horrible poison to try to kill the cancer inside of them and ruin their lives and ruin and and there was nothing wrong with them Wow Yeah Because there's and I think his justification was even more sick His justification was that he was always taught that you eat what you kill And in that business in the business of being a surgeon and a be business of being a doctor like you have to perform this medicine in order to get money and this is the incentive structure that's put in front of you I don't know if you know that but uh chemotherapy is one of the most profitable things that a doctor can prescribe They actually get an enormous amount of money from each individual person that they Yeah There's there's all sorts of very twisted and bizarre financial incentives Again these institutions that get warped by these various Exactly I mean this is the case with vaccinations This is the case with prescriptions of of various medicines There's kickbacks and these kickbacks become incentives and you know and then you have the overwhelming burden of the financial responsibility that you have with your medical school debt and then you have uh malpractice insurance which is overwhelming You have overhead you have staff you have a bunch of people and then people start justifying things in a very twisted way and it's because of the system and you have to be an incredibly powerful person to rise above that and to say this is not what I'm going to do even if it means I can't do this anymore I'm not doing this And then the the weakest amongst us just in instead they go the other way and say I'll justify what no one is going to know I'll say yeah you got cancer Yeah I'm sorry you know we're just gonna I'm gonna give her a low dose of chemotherapy for like six weeks Just like you know whatever No big deal Yeah Just destroy your body from this And then just like this godlike power that you know that you are imposing this medication on this person that absolutely does not need it and that person doesn't know any better Yeah that's [ __ ] dark Um well you could go darker You go darker with medical transition of children you know this uh this whole gender affirming care thing where you're taking young kids and convincing them they need to be chemically castrated or physically castrated right there's that's there there's a a lot of weirdness in in the world Yeah Yeah there's a lot of there's evil is a real thing and that the motivation to do these things can be very very hidden and masked with all sorts of incentives and the structure in which this institution was sort of created and that's that's the world we're living in and it's not a good world It's not it's not a perfect world you know it's not like this is ideal This is how it should be No it's not like that There's money is a weird [ __ ] thing Money and power are two very very weird things And without some sort of a higher power that you call upon or some sort of a higher power that you are beholden to and that you have to answer to it's very difficult for people to make decisions if they know they're not going to get caught If they know they're not going to get in trouble If you're a prosecutor and you're beyond reproach and all you have to do and the system protects you and everyone's protecting you and not only that once the wheels are in motion the train's on the track we can't turn the train around What do you want to do well the [ __ ] train has to be on the track So uh she's got to go to jail I guess Yeah And there you go Can I tell you something I'm conflicted about sure So um you know my book's been out uh for a month or so now and I'm also you know working on I don't know if you knew this I have a Hulu show that I'm working on that's based on my life Um yeah uh Monica is executive producing it Monica Lewinsky is executive producing it Um and I'm really proud of it It's it's um it goes it's coming out at the end of uh at the end of the summer late summer And um but one of the things that like one of the responses that I've had to my book and to the you know the news that I'm telling my story in this way or in another way and I write about this in the book is this question of um do I have the right to tell my story and um what who's saying that well um people who believe that I'm not the real victim of the story The real victim is my roommate who was murdered And that unless I have the blessing of Meredith's family to tell my story that I should shut up and disappear out of respect That's crazy You're a victim Period Full stop No if ends or buts You were 20 years old I was 20 years old You're a victim Period You didn't commit a murder You went to jail for a murder You're a victim Period [ __ ] those people Are they even real people have you talked to those people are they humans i mean have you been in front of them or are you just reading things i mean I reading things online journalists certainly who have interviewed me I I get this I get this a lot I get this a lot Um from who from people who I feel like are suffering from something I call the single victim fallacy This like idea that like you have to decide who's the real victim Oh there's a victim hierarchy You're not the greatest victim because you're still alive right you weren't raped and murdered so you're still alive so you're fine Like that is ridiculous If that's a journalist that's saying that to you I would just leave the room I would be like well well I'm trying to have a conversation with these people about it about that That's a preposterous position to tell a 20-year-old that went to jail for years for a crime they didn't commit and had their whole life publicly publicly ruined worldwide in a country you don't even live in or you're not even from [ __ ] that person That's a crazy position And if they're just trying to do that to you know just get a rise out of you to get a reaction to try to like they're bad They're bad at what they do It's it's a bad person The idea that you're not a victim is preposterous That's a crazy position An actual human being sat in front of you and was saying that So it's it comes in different forms So some people are very explicit and say like "Don't you think you shouldn't be doing this when the Kercher family's lawyer says that you shouldn't be doing this?" And then it's So they're saying this to your face Yeah Yeah And then I have to sit there and again do like experience the rage that washes over me and then go how do I have an effective conversation with this human being how do I convey that my life matters too and that there's room in this world to acknowledge all of the truth of what happened which included my own victimization and my own story and the things that I've learned from it that I've had the privilege to learn from it because I'm still alive That that's such a crazy position That's like saying if you were in the Twin Towers and you got out right before it collapsed you should shut the [ __ ] up right because you didn't because you didn't die like all those other people that were inside of it That's ridiculous He's still your life It's still your real lived reality And the lawyer for the family that's telling you that you shouldn't be talking about it [ __ ] that guy too That's crazy That's a crazy position You You can't listen to that You're going to get the most preposterous takes because you're dealing with something that millions of people are commenting on So the idea that you're every one of them is going to be a rational position that's not real People are silly Like people are weird They have crazy takes on everything There's all sorts of personal justifications and mental illness and there's people who hate women There's people that you know whatever They law enforcement's always right You're always gonna have ridiculous takes if you get a billion takes on things That's your world No you shouldn't be struggling with that at all That's crazy Anybody who says you shouldn't be talking about it but [ __ ] of course you should be because there's a lot to be learned There's a lot to be learned from first of all the admirable positions that you've taken The way you've formed your life and who you are as a human being because of your struggle because of this insane experience that you had to go through at [ __ ] 20 years old Your brain's not even fully formed It's insane Your frontal cortex is not fully formed And for someone to say that you you you're not the real victim Well that's crazy That's crazy That's a this is a stupid position Well we shouldn't be conflicted in any way shape or form about that And I think there's a great deal that we can learn from your experiences First of all again learn from the way that you've handled it where you can sit across from that prosecutor and this feeling of like being kind to this person who did this thing to you how it made you empowered I really do think that's the universe telling you you're on the right track You just can't listen to the peanut gallery You can't listen to all the noise There's just too much noise And you you have to learn how to do that on a much lesser scale I I see that with friends who are famous who read comments about them or read articles and get infuriated It ruins vacations because they have to type up a response or you know the impulse to respond is like You don't have to Not only do you not should you not respond you shouldn't read what they're saying in the first place You shouldn't pay attention Is there ever like I I wonder if the fear is and maybe this is my fear cuz I'm always questioning myself is like is there I always want to like at least hear it and like cycle the thought through my mind so that I can test the validity of it in my mind Yes there's definitely that Sure But to a point you should probably do that yourself without those people That's the best way The best way is to have an internal auditing system where you look at your own life and say did what did I do that I could have done better right and what what what about is there anything about what I'm doing that feels icky right is there anything about the way I'm capitalizing on this that feels icky or feels conflicted is there anything about it that I don't like right but just do that yourself You don't you're a smart person You don't need all those other opinions to where you have to like you know let's take email today from all Amanda Knox haters Like you don't have to do that Fair Yeah And thankfully my husband is the one who takes the brunt of that and he shouldn't do it either Yeah Let me help As a person who's been famous for a long time don't do it Okay Fair There's no value in it There's zero value in it I mean there's times where I was forced into responding like during the whole COVID situation when CNN was saying I was taking veterinary medicine and and you were like I need to clarify reality or not Also I need to say hey [ __ ] you Because the world should say [ __ ] you You're not supposed to be able to do that You're not supposed to be able to be the news and lie and then hold yourself to this moral high ground and say we have to stop misinformation What about you [ __ ] like what about you you know and so there's that Like I've had to respond in that way But I mean if I responded to everything that everybody ever says about me I'd have no time for my children for my family for my life for my job I I would have no time for anything Like you can't do it You just you have to have an internal auditing system where you look at yourself and you have to be your own worst judge You know anything anybody says about me that tries to make me feel bad well guess what i'm way harsher to me than you are And I know me you know and that's you know all the dark thoughts and the slimy feelings But that's why I work really hard to be a good person I work really hard to be a good person because I don't like those feelings I don't like the when I judge myself and I find myself to be lacking I don't like it So I institute a lot of self-discipline and I institute a lot of introspective thinking Yeah What is your what's your auditing like what's your self- auditing process well first of all it's like why are you doing what you're doing with your life like what are why why do you why do you do a podcast why do you do comedy why do you do anything why do you do what you do i So the best way I approach it is I do it because I love what I do I'm intrigued I'm curious and I do my best Always do my best Now if I halfass something it will haunt me Like if I have a bad podcast interview if I don't if I think I interrupted too much or if I didn't ask the right questions like that'll [ __ ] with me for the rest of the day Like I don't need other people to [ __ ] with me I [ __ ] with myself I really do I So I So the best response to that is do better every time Every time Like sit when you sit down be as open as possible Try to like don't let all these little weird mind [ __ ] things enter into your head Just try to be pure Try to be genuinely curious like what's your genuine feelings about these things and then did you did you handle it well if you didn't what could you have done better right Well then work on that Yeah And that's all you can do I think one of the things that I am I worry about is that people only feel safe when they're either being self-righteous or when they are being cynical Yeah And like genuine compassion or curiosity is looked down upon as naive and a w and a weakness Mhm And but I feel like the only way to be truly ethical is to be exposed in that way Cyn cynicism and self-righteousness are shields They are ways of approaching the world with with with a barrier Yes And absolutely And so I I and I can't promise anyone that doing things my way which is like really trying to like push back against those impulses which I recognize as being dangerous impulses is going to necessarily lead to good things Like it's led it's not your job to promise people that It's not your job It's your job is for you for your your soul whoever you are It's to speak to what what is the right path for you You don't you're not you don't have to promise these people This is the burden of being a public figure Like you're not you're not a role model for all these people If you are a role model for these people because they find you admirable that's great But your responsibility is to your yourself Your responsibility is to your own mind and the people that you come in contact with So your your responsibility is not to like say like don't be cynical be kind and oh it didn't work out for you Oh [ __ ] I [ __ ] up It's me It's on me No it's on them It's on them It's on you Everyone has their own soul their own mind their own path and you have to find out what's right for you in doing what you're doing You are most certainly a role model and you most certainly will be a role model for including me I I find myself admiring like when we had the first podcast I thought about it for a long time I would think about it all throughout the day sometimes like randomly I would just think about imagining myself in your position and how would I be and I I you know I don't know I I can't answer it but I I admire the position that you've taken I think it's incredible I think it's a great I it's a great example to the world of what's possible if someone is thrust into a horrible position that's totally beyond their control But what is in your control what's in your control is how you respond to it Mhm And how you responded to it was incredibly admirable That's that's your responsibilities to yourself and you did a great job with it A fantastic job Exemplary I don't think there's anybody else that I could point to that's ever been through anything even remotely close to what you've been through and come out the way you have The only examples that maybe I could point to are some of the people that have dealt with through Josh where we brought people in that were wrongly accused that went through these horrible incarcerations and came out on the other side these incredibly well- readad brilliant articulate people that are so thoughtful and so introspect and so and can and then made that time in prison empower them It can be done and those are those are examples but the responsibility is to yourself It's not to these other people I guess like I I think that's so I mean thank you Um and I agree like I've met very incredible people who have made the most of a bad situation which ultimately that's what it comes down to I guess my one push back might be that I have come to realize that we are so interconnected like we are all influencing each other constantly Yes And so on the one hand yes I'm only answerable ultimately to myself but when I really sit down and like sit with it like part of the reason why I was able to approach my prosecutor with the perspective that I had was realizing that like there is a fluidity between us and all of us where we're all influencing each other and people in his life have now like the influences in his life People I will never have met have have had direct influences in my life because it's been like this fluid path like this connectedness between me and him me and you Any any person we talk to any person we encounter is going to then have this ripple effect And so on the one hand yes like I'm a drop but I'm also a drop in an ocean that has a ripple effect And that ripple is going to interact with your ripple and and all these other ripples And and so yes I am answerable to myself but I also feel like I can't ignore the potential impact that my ripple might have on another person And I've been really rewarded in the way that I have I've been comm those ripples have been communicated to me Like I've had someone tell me that they didn't kill themselves because one day they heard me you know in an interview and and like that they were going to kill themselves and then they didn't And like I've had someone tell me that And like I never in my wildest dreams thought that me just deciding to like have a conversation with someone one day on a podcast would save a human being's life But like those are those like the interconnected fluidness of all of us that like I also can't discount You should and that I think about a lot Well you should I mean you are an example I mean we are all an example And if you're a public example or we right now both of us are public examples We're we're two human beings that are communicating right now to millions of people It's kind of [ __ ] up if you really think about it What are we doing i know but we're what we are We're we're being real people publicly So you you we're thinking publicly you know and um that is very beneficial to other people that are thinking privately because you get to hear people think publicly and especially a person like you that's very exemplary and that I would love if more people could follow that line of thinking and your example It's it's a beautiful example of someone who did nothing wrong but had wrong done to them and came out a better person because of it And that's that's it's not just inspirational it's aspirational It's it's a it it it it provides the universe with positive energy in a weird way the human universe I mean and and this this thing that you said I think is very important this um people protect themselves with cynicism and with people that like constantly want to criticize things They're constantly criticizing things finding fault You're you're you're also you're ignoring your own life That's a part of what's really going on The the real things are in inside their own life There must be things they're ignoring if they're spending that much time focusing on external factors like that and other people and other people's flaws and other people's things other people's especially like trivial nonsensical things like celebrity beefs Oh I know You know you know what I mean it's like what are you doing with your [ __ ] lives like you don't It's like I just don't know how anyone has the time honestly Like as a It's because they're losers And this is the reality of like some people don't want to hear this cuz you're a loser you know and it sucks being a loser I've been a loser I've been a loser many times in my life You're a loser If you're doing that because you are on with your own decisions becoming a loser you're deciding to be a loser by focusing this precious energy that you have in life on [ __ ] that should mean nothing to you Is there like a a is there are they thinking that they're being effective agents in the world by participating in it that's the con That's the con right that's the con Like yeah by taking them down a notch I'm Yeah I'm a part of something and I'm and I'm accomplishing something Yeah you're not you're not you're not It's cynicism It's it's uh it's you know the flag of moral virtue that you're you're waving to show that you're better than other people but in doing so you're attacking that person which is inherently evil Like you you're you're using this justification that you're correct to try to ruin someone's lives or ruin someone's reputation or ruin someone's feelings to hurt them that day to reach out to them and attack And it's almost always based on a feeling of personal inadequacy almost always based on your life is not what you want it to be You know the pe people leaving horrible comments on someone's Instagram page or Twitter page there's no way you're living the life that you want to live There's no way that you're in an ideal situation of love and harmony and success and you know you have great friends and life is amazing but yeah this [ __ ] fat [ __ ] you know like there's no way There's no way if you're typing those things there's no way like that It's a it's a a human flaw and it's accentuated by this disconnect that comes with social media This disconnect of being able to send a message to someone and have no consequence no consequences and no social cues not to see the person read it and get hurt by it you know You're like sending little bombs over the fence like Yeah we are primed to be psychopaths in uh our our algorithms have primed us to be psychopaths Um and that worries me But if you're but that's like a disempowering position you know like you don't have to be you don't have to do that Like it's no one's compelling you to do that I don't do that Why are you doing that like why do it you don't have to do it then This is the example that you can lead for for other people If you are talking and speaking publicly just don't do that It's not good for you It's not good for it doesn't help anybody Hurting someone that you don't even know that doesn't help you You should be you have I always try to this is what I tell my friends when I talk about uh reading comments and reading things and engaging with social media because I have friends where it it'll like ruin their week ruin their day Like one comment will [ __ ] them up and they and they'll come to me and talk to me about it I'm like listen I want you to think about your mind and your attention like it's a number like it's you have energy and like like a battery right you have or bandwidth that's on a a broadband cable right you have a hundred units If you're spending 30 units of your precious time concentrating on someone who's saying something that's not even true that's mean and horrible and it's the worst possible least charitable position on you right you're robbing yourself of these precious units of attention You have a hundred units You should your 100 units should be all on loved ones and friends and things that you love to do and life That's what your units should be used for And if some of that sneaks in and it resonates and you go "Oh my god they're right." Well [ __ ] correct it Figure out what you did Don't do that anymore It's like it sounds so simple but that's it If you if you are do something you are doing something that people are rightly criticizing recognize it recognize it course correct like this is this is where friends are supposed to come and play your friends are supposed to be able to tell you Amanda you didn't have to do that like I know the the reason why you did it but like don't do that like this is why this is what I felt I felt like you overreacted you didn't have to do that now this person's all [ __ ] up because of it right but your friends are not going to define you by what they consider that are the worst thing you've ever done And they're going to recognize that you're an evolving human And I feel like and they love you The whole picture of you and it's coming like their criticism is coming from a loving place instead of an attacking place And so how do we get back to communicating with each other not from an adversarial place which automatically instigates defensiveness and sort of refusal to acknowledge anything right to a place of like genuine openness Well this is gonna sound so cliche You have to act out of love Like I I reached out to a friend of mine recently They're doing a podcast and it went completely sideways and I I reached out to him and I I sent him a text message I said "Hey man You can't do this Like this is why you're doing that You have to recognize that people are listening to this You're actually ruining your own product by doing this you you and and he responded back I know I realized that I felt terrible while it was happening I got caught up in this thing I got bunched up He's like I got all bunched up and I just responded I felt terrible I was like it's okay Just don't do it again you know cuz he gets to have another chance Yeah But and the reason why I said it to him is cuz he's done it before and I'm like stop doing this Stop doing this Like you don't have to do this This is [ __ ] you up And ultimately like if you I hate to use like is conversation an art form i kind of think it is Right If if if people are consuming it a skill Yeah If people are consuming it is an art form So if you're being overbearing and gross and like whatever it is it's like that you're ruining this art that you're creating And this real art like that painting is art This is real art This is a weird art It's like I don't even want to call it art It's like a dance but with words It's a dance It's a dance It is a dance It is a dance Conversation is a dance And this is why I have such a hard time Like I would go on a double date with my wife or something like that where with people and they start talking over everybody else and sometimes I have to say "Well stop." Like she's talking like he's talking Haven't you ever listened to a podcast what the [ __ ] are you guys doing it's like playing It's like if you were Roger Federer and you're playing tennis with people like "No you can't [ __ ] hit the ball like that." Like what are you guys doing you can't just do multiple balls at the same time Do you not listen i know you want to say something but this other person is talking right now And you can't just talk when you want to talk You have to also listen Like listening is a part of the dance Don't step on people's feet Like you see that foot there oh I want to put my foot there But the foot's already there Don't step on their foot This is crazy But but you have to step on a couple of feet to realize oh I stepped on her feet I can't do that You have to accidentally [ __ ] up to realize like okay don't do that again Like back up and figure out what you did wrong Course correct Can I ask you about comedy sure Because I want to do comedy I'm doing the way you said that I just wanna guys I wanna I'm actually doing standup on Saturday Um but on my on Vashan Island I'm doing What's Vashon Island it's where I live It's a little island right outside of Seattle That is Oh awesome Okay I know where that Okay Have you been to Bash no I've been to uh Bainbridge Oh yeah Okay Bainbridge Island Um our island is a little more rural than Bainbridge Um it's Oh so you're doing comedy for your community That's a terrible idea Is it yes Is it don't do it No You want strangers Really i feel like you don't want to interact with those weirdos that you live with They I I feel like we have a very supportive community I I've done it before and it's been great Do you have an opening act or you just go out by yourself no I'm part of like it's like um this Saturday I'm going to be a part I'm in a lineup of people who have like seven minute set Oh okay Yeah Oh that's safe Seven minutes is safe Yeah Yeah You know I'm walking up there and I'm like how many times have you done it uh this will be like the fourth or fifth time Um Whitney actually was the one who first introduced me to standup She like I love Whitney by the way Can we just can we just gush about Whitney for a second and I love the fact that we both have small kids at the same time And I just I just love her And so she was the one who first recognized like this girl's been through some [ __ ] I bet she's [ __ ] funny and and you know befriended me after I got on her podcast and then when she did the roast of Whitney Cummings for Only Fans I was her like special surprise guest and I got to do a little bit of a roast of her and a little bit of myself right like of course the one place that I can finally get my comedic you know true self out there is on Only Fans of All Things And you know I get to be you know when I go this Saturday I get to be the ex-con mom on the on the menu And that's a Pornhub search for you you know like you know like I get to like lean in to the tragedy of it all but it then goes back to that question of do people stick you into boxes or are you allowed to be more than what people expect you to be and I've you know in the past not from my my own community but from strangers received criticism for making jokes about my experience And again coming from that place of how dare you joke about you know going to prison for a crime you didn't commit when you're not the real victim and whatever Or you're or you're a true crime figure You're a you're a you're a person who has been I associate you with a tragedy Therefore you have to stay in tragedy space and moving into comedic space is not allowed And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that That's the same thing You're dealing with commenters Like you can't listen I just just want to do my thing and mind business Okay Yeah Yeah If I listened I would have never done anything I've done If I listen to people I've would have never done anything that I've done ever Not one thing But we should Yeah Okay I would have never fought I would never got into martial arts I never would have fought I never would have done standup comedy I never would have done a podcast Even my own wife jokes around about it because when my kids were really little there was one time where my wife wanted to go to Disneyland and I said "I can't I have to do a podcast." She goes "No you want to do a podcast." I go "No I I I have to I told the people that I was going to do it so I have to do it." I committed But back then it was it made no money It was just like nonsense thing that I was doing on the internet like what are you doing and to this day we laugh about it like thank god you didn't listen to me But I don't listen to anybody I listen to me I listen to my own mind if I want to do like I would have never moved to Austin Like I moved to Austin in the middle of this giant Spotify deal and they were like what are you doing like you like what like so they gave me all this money and I'm like I'm going to leave LA They're like what like how are you going to get guests i'm like I'm flying them in anyway Like who cares i got I want to do what I want to do I'm going to just do it I have a I have a little [ __ ] compass It's like right as if also as if everyone only lives in LA and you weren't like the only people worth talking to are going to be in LA Also I was like I would rather be broke and not live under the the thumb of [ __ ] government than than stay in LA and have a successful career Like [ __ ] you I'll just do standup and travel the country and just live in the middle of it I'm not doing this anymore I mean you can't tell me I can't work You can't tell me I can't go out You can't tell me I have to put a mask on when I'm walking the dog [ __ ] you Like the whole thing was just like I'm out I'm getting out of here And you know moving to Austin was a crazy risk you know like to opening up a comedy club Everybody's always told me I've always told people be nice to comedy club owners because you don't want to be one of them Like you want to deal with us want to deal with a bunch of [ __ ] crazy people that travel the country Half of them are on drugs They're all narcissists and [ __ ] insane people and they're all just like just their whole day You're really selling being a comedian right now Yeah Well just being honest They just half their mind most of the day is trying to figure out things that are [ __ ] up enough to talk about on stage Like and how do how do I phrase this how do I structure it what's a way to get into people's heads with this idea how do I how do I make it really funny like what what's the best way to do it and like that's a crazy way to live Like you don't want those people to be your primary source of income because like with a comedy club owner all you have is what the artists create That's all you're selling Otherwise you just have a box You have a box of the microphone and you're selling drinks All you have is other people's creation And those people half of them are [ __ ] insane Like you don't want to be one of those But then I came out here and I was like "God damn it I have to be one of those now." No regrets No No It worked out great I mean I went to your show last night It was super fun Thank you Yeah Thank you Great Glad you had a good time Yeah Yeah Yeah You have to just do what you think you want to do and then just do the best version of it you can But to listen to people say you shouldn't be making jokes because you're a tragic figure [ __ ] you Who says who says you let me look at your life [ __ ] Let me let me go through your [ __ ] pathetic mind and find out what weird justifications you're making for the way you think and behave Like you're not in any position to be giving out advice And most of those people are not in any position to give out to be giving out advice Yeah And I do worry about people's lack of imagination It's like I don't know I've I've had enough taken away from me that I am not going to be limited by a lack of imagination Absolutely So and it's also people don't want you to succeed You know that sucks Yeah Why yeah Because because they're not succeeding It's all it is People that are succeeding for the most part want you to succeed up until you get to their level and you're like "Hey hey you're you're buttoning up on my success." Is there a limited amount of success in the world no Why then well because they're fools And it's famine thinking It's a famine mentality And you could either think in terms of abundance or famine you know But it's a real problem with uh comedians Comedians that criticize other comedians Kind of crazy that they're only criticizing the ones that are way more successful than them Seems odd Convenient Seems weird But they don't think about it that way They just look at this other person that's getting a lot of attention and they feel bad So they think that should be them and instead of like using it as inspiration like "Wow look at her She's [ __ ] selling out arenas This is crazy What is she doing that I'm not doing what can I learn from her what can I learn from that?" Instead they're like "Fuck her and [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that." And what you're doing is stealing bandwidth from yourself that 100 units you're now spending 30 units criticizing other people who aren't even thinking about you Haha Haha Doing it to yourself And it ruins And not only that but when you're doing it publicly everybody knows what you're doing Anybody who's really worth considering who's an intelligent objective person knows exactly what your motivation is They know why you're doing it the least charitable takes on things and the worst possible light that you're shining on things and the the the worst descriptions of people like you know what you're doing You're just trying to make up for the fact that you've fallen short You don't like how your path has gone and you're you know you see someone all of a sudden she's telling she's doing comedy now [ __ ] that you know you shouldn't be doing cuz she shouldn't be doing comedy These hot takes that people have you know while they're on anti-depressants and their whole [ __ ] world's in a tizzy Like shut up You don't have to listen But it's okay that they talk It's okay It's like part of the learning experience of human culture Like civilization has to have a bunch of [ __ ] people talking about stuff and a bunch of it noise And it's up to you to figure out what's noise And like well then you see someone who's not noise and who's someone who's living an exemplary life and go okay that's not noise okay what's in that what's in that like oh she met with a prosecutor wow and she like she felt empowered you know people are going to listen to what you just said about that and just like just like when they're alone like throughout the day when they're driving their car when they're sitting on the train they got to think about that I mean I'm still thinking about that I'm I'm still like trying to figure it out And I think that's good I think Yeah We're all like you said we're all interconnected We're all learning together you know and the only thing you could do is do your best Do your best Do your best Is that the advice do your best Yes Is that is that advice Daddy with everything With everything With everything Do your best Be a nice person and do your best Yeah It's all you can do Done and done Yeah we have solved It seems so simple but you know those demons will they never sleep They'll wake up in the morning tapping you on the head The thing that again the thing that haunts me is when people think they're doing their best and they're not That's what haunts me like and that happens that that is happening constantly is people convincing themselves that they're doing their best and they're not But then how do you get out of that cycle of convincing yourself because that's where the the issue of cognitive bias comes in and like reaffirming your your sense of self to yourself and your identity like I'm a good guy I can't you know I can't do wrong or like uh you know I'm I'm a good friend I can't be a bad like there there are ways that we define ourselves that makes it impossible for ourselves to to see ourselves clearly And that freaks me out Like I'm always afraid of that Five grams in silent darkness Prescribe And you might have to do it more than once You might have to do a lot of cleaning Yeah Clean your closet clean your closet okay throw out all the stupid [ __ ] But it's hard for people because you know you're on this path of momentum Often times people are ahead of their skis You know they're on this path of and they don't know how to stop the train that's out of the station Yeah But in a much lesser extent because it's more in their control you know in your situation it's beyond your control And a lot of people they're the [ __ ] they're at they're the engineer you know they're the ones who's in the skis They're the ones who are deciding to go straight downhill you know It's it's uh it's hard It's hard And then you have all these things once you've sort of created a life and you have all these pieces in motion and then you realize like oh my god this is like kind of beyond my control and I don't like where it's going but everything's still moving It takes a lot to pull that back and you kind of have to slow it down in stages you know you have to like throw things off the side of the car like what's go got to get rid of this got to get rid of that some you're going to have to cut people out of your life sometimes sometimes it's people sometimes certain people they're not going to learn and I think you know the universe provides them as an example of how not to live but also as a puzzle that you need to solve like you need to sol if this person is continually bringing negative things into your life and continually tripping you up and sabotaging you You have to at a certain point in time separate yourself You have to you know you got to ghost people As horrible as that seems like you can't because you don't have enough time Yeah There's not enough time in the world Your time is very precious And if people don't want to help themselves you can't help them True That's very true I've definitely found myself in the position of not being helpable Um there's a story I tell in in the book about trusting the wrong person and wanting to believe that they were someone like me someone who could understand me and then I realized they were not That's horrible when you let someone in and you realize you [ __ ] up I've had that happen multiple times Yeah there's a lot of conart artists out there There's a lot of sociopaths There's a lot of slippery people that they're chameleons They're like little cuttlefish they kind of adapt to their environment and slip into your world It's dangerous You know there's a lot of people that that they look at it like like it's a like a game like how do I get close to this person how do I benefit from this relationship how do I make these connections and in the business world you're actually taught to do that right which is you're really crazy which is what like no wonder right it's a good word in that way You have to [ __ ] you know and you and the wife have to go out and like pretend that like I know he's an [ __ ] We're going to sit with him because it's really important for my promotion And then you know that's no wonder why CEOs become sociopaths Like of course like that's part of has a good book about that Have you read the psychopath test no I haven't I read the publicly shamed book though Yeah that's a good one too It's great Yeah He's so funny Yeah Yeah It's um I mean it's a Being a human is weird There's no guide book you know There's You have the most complex interactive machine that is constantly adapting and changing and it's completely variable It's completely variable based on your environment Like not just your environment in terms of the human beings but even the like weather Like if you live in Seattle right you're on a very different wavelength than when you're in Austin It's true I come here and I feel like I'm in a bath all the time Just in a bath What do you mean it's so hot and like But and and that like impacts me in a way where I just feel sort of dreamy like I'm in a bath all the time instead of That's interesting I've never heard it put that way In a bath That's funny That's funny I I Yeah I don't think about that way I wanted to ask how you slow down though right you're talking about slowing down and like taking stock Uhhuh And the way I do it is by meditating but I have found that a lot of people are resistant to the idea of meditating because they have certain ideas about what meditating is and like it's shutting off your thoughts and it's like well you know eventually you might be able to do that but ultimately it's just sitting down and noticing your thoughts that arise Um but I like to say that anyone who can masturbate can meditate and ultimately like actually people that can meditate maybe not be able to masturbate because they don't have any arms You can still meditate Exactly and you get ultimately to a similar place of like just single-minded focus and bliss So go for it Don't hold back Yeah Um and the funny things that occur to your brain when you are meditating like I have Okay Can I can I tell you something that's kind of like off color sure Well maybe you know this like since becoming a mom like my libido really Oh yeah Just because I'm constantly being like touched that like the last thing I need is for my husband to climb on me like a jungle gem Like it's just it's just not what's on the menu for me Also you're probably tired all the time I'm so tired and like I'm just like my body is different The chemistry is still working itself out Uhhuh The one thing that reliably makes me horny is meditating Interesting Isn't that wild huh and you know we have this like term in meditation like monkey mind right like the idea being that like when you sit down you really notice that your mind is going all over the place and is just like reacting like a monkey But also another thing that monkeys are famous for is just masturbating voraciously And I feel like that's also what's happening in my mind Like I sit down and notice like how perverted my mind is when I'm actually just sitting there meditating in a nice group of people on a Sunday morning That's funny So Oh group meditation Oh yeah Yeah It's not just like when I'm home alone like in my intimate space Like I'm like I feel Yeah This is I hope no one at my zeno this conversation Maybe they're going to come up to you the next time you do like me too Yes But then you don't want to know cuz then you're going to be meditating like this freak is thinking about sex too Well I mean and you're sitting there and you're thinking like what else are the uses of these floor cushions like you're just like going like all of the things in your brain and then you're thinking am I the only one am interesting Yeah So I don't know There's something again one of those like weird un um unintended consequences of just trying to like sit back and take stock is like rediscovering parts of yourself that are have been sort of diminished or made dormant because of the the stress of existence So another reason why they should advertise that I don't know why they don't advertise that on meditation apps Like is this just It would attract the wrong people Like I'm trying to get perverted I'm trying to find my inner pervert Exactly Yeah I don't know Um I don't necessarily meditate that way but I do incorporate a lot of voluntary adversity Um a lot of it is working out Um you got a lot of Buddhas around you for someone who doesn't meditate I know Weird right let's go with that My friend Duncan has some very bizarre theories about that I don't know I'm very uh drawn to that Um uh I do though it's just I do it while I'm doing other things I've always said that martial arts is a form of moving meditation because it's so singular in its focus that it requires all of your thoughts and it cleanses your mind There's a bunch of things that I do a bunch of things that I do that do that Archery archery does that oddly enough Archer in the art of archery There's a reason why there's that book Yes There's something about because Have you ever done archery i have done it because my um my brother-in-law is a Renfair guy He's a Renfair performer Yeah So cool I'm going to Can I call out Seattle Nights by the way he is the director of the Seattle Knights And yes he jousts He like talks in I know It's so cool It's so cool I love it And I always I'm gonna go to their show on Woodby Island this month anyway That's funny Yeah they're awesome But yes so yeah Uh what were we saying archery Archery Yes So I've done it like in his backyard because he has all of the medieval weaponry and Yeah I don't use the medieval ones I use modern ones But the the the thing about it is that it it's very difficult to do accurately especially at distance Right So when I practice I practice it Most of the time I practice in at about 85 yards and the amount of movement like so if you're at full draw so you draw the bow back right if you're at full draw if if you look at my arm if my arm does this I miss by six inches Wait what did you just do this this this ah I'm missing by six inches at 85 yards a slight I mean a millimeter of movement is 4 in off target So you're saying that Legolos is a badass is what I'm hearing Who legalis from Lord of the Rings Oh yeah I'm not I'm not That's not a real person I'm applying it to human beings Oh okay Fine That there's this repeatable technique that you have to do It involves breathing and focus and concentration and uh there's actually a whole process that I go through There's this guy named Joel Turner who was a uh he was a SWAT instructor and a lead guy in hostage situations where you know someone would like have a a child hostage you had to shoot the guy who was like holding a knife to a child And he's he's had situations like that where you have to be completely focused on the task And so he developed this process of talking yourself through the shot with this you have these words that you say and you repeat in your mind while you're going through all of these various techniques So when you're drawing a bow back you draw back You have to anchor So you put this string in a very particular part of your mouth Every time my knuckle this finger goes underneath my jaw in the exact same spot Every time my elbow goes up in the exact same spot and then it's staying still and concentrating on the target and pulling through and you can't think about anything else It's so overwhelming that you have to focus if you want to be accurate you have to focus only on that And in doing so the world just goes away The world goes away because it requires so much of you Martial arts is the same thing Like if you're doing jiu-jitsu and you and this person are trying to solve each other's puzzle and you're trying you're you're essentially trying to kill each other but in a friendly way like you're friends but because you can tap out you don't hurt each other but you're it you can't be thinking about your bills You can't be thinking about an argument you got in this Why did my dog [ __ ] on the rug you can't be thinking about those things You have to be completely focused on what you're doing And in that way like jiu-jitsu people are some of the calmst most chilled out people you will ever meet in your life First of all because they get all of their aggression out Like all the unnecessary aggression that people carry around with them all this angst and 100% which is part of being a human being because we're designed to run away from predators We're designed to hunt and gather and look out for invading tribes is like this is the genetic sequence that evolved for hundreds of thousands of years that we still have It's still a part of us These human reward systems that are all in place you have to honor those And one of the ways you have to honor those is rigorous exercise Whatever you like to do You can play squash You could play tennis You can run You could do yoga You could lift weights You could do jiu-jitsu But you have to do something if you don't do something you're going to always be the most anxietyridden people I know are also sedentary I don't think that's a coincidence And I also always feel like whenever I'm feeling really shitty psychologically I need to go for a run Yes Um do you find So here's my question Given that that is your like meditative practice do you find that in the moment that the you release the bow and that like that becoming one and that flow state that you have entered into in order to perfectly align yourself with the bow and the arrow Does that moment of release ever result in some kind of unconscious processing coming into your consciousness so like some kind of a new awareness of something that you've been trying to figure out and it like is a catalyst for you figuring out what you need like that feeling of like being in sync with the universe and knowing what you need to do Do you ever find yourself like in the moment that you are like immediately exiting that flow state do you real do you feel more clarity about your life or what you need to do or or that thing that you weren't thinking about like your to-do list or your bills or that argument that you've had with somebody that you care about like does anything come into focus or do you find you you walk away from an encounter in jiu-jitsu like knowing not just feeling better emotionally but like knowing what you need to do next i think more so with jiu-jitsu Um with archery it's just you know because it's so hard to do at the and it's such a singular thing You're just doing this one thing over and over and over again Like I'll do it like a hundred times in a day The the the thing is like okay what did I do right what did I do wrong like what why why did that shot go bad like what minute adjustments Yeah just minute adjustments And again it's just a clarity I'm sorry about my throat people Yeah no worries It's um it's just a clarity of uh analysis of technique and of execution So it's it's so overwhelming It's so singular in in it in in the focus that you don't really think about anything else So there's no room for like oh now I know what I did wrong in my life Like yeah I guess I one of the benefits that I get from meditation is feeling like when I come out of meditation I feel like I I have a clarity of purpose that I might not have had because I was I had monkey mind and I was busy I was distracted and I was using my bandwidth was so much and so you just tune down what your bandwidth is like paying attention to and then you re-enter the world with a renewed sense of clarity and you're not as distracted You're not on that treadmill of thought Yeah I think that comes to me at least that comes much more through rigorous exercise That makes sense Yeah That's the at the end of a really hard workout and sauna and stretching Stretching is always great too That's a good time for reflection after it's over and it's like this wind down cool down And then I'm just I always feel so much nicer That's the one thing I really like about it Like after I work out I feel so much nicer Like I want to be I'm a good person now I want I know I just want to be nice to people I want to I want to smile and say hi to everybody Like all the weirdness of being a man it just goes away You know the weirdness of being a man I do think that I am I do not envy you being a man Oh my god it's the best I don't envy you being a woman Yeah Really Oh no I much prefer being a woman Of course you're a woman I mean testosterone is a hell of a drug my friend Like what the hell is that testosterone i don't want to deal with that It's interesting But you have some You have more testosterone than you have estrogen What yeah Yeah Women have more testosterone than they have estrogen But I've never felt the impulse to punch a wall you know me neither That's stupid Okay Well punch walls Well you have an outlet for your punching energy but like the I don't I mean what I mean is like that innate elevate like an elevated level of aggression that just is not like accessible to me as as a as a woman I is that wrong am I like inaccurate in this i just feel like I don't know what I would do if I wanted to just like jerk off all the time Like I just don't understand what that is like And that seems over like that doesn't seem fun to deal with Uh yeah Well you don't really want to jerk off all the time unless you're a sex addict you know then you probably got other deal issues you're dealing with Um but the aggression thing it's not just like aggression for no reason Like you only have aggression for a reason Like I I never have aggression for like I'm never like walking around like [ __ ] mad at everything There's never never it's never the case And um but I also I work out a lot so I get it out I get it out of my system It's just a thing like you just have to maintain You have you just have to maintain your life You have to maintain your body You have to recognize you have biological needs And as a man I think one of those needs is you have to exercise to to just calm yourself to relieve anxiety And again that's that term that is used often but I think it's the right term voluntary adversity You show up at class you work out really hard You show up at the gym you work out really hard and then when it's over you're like you feel better You feel good Like you're nicer Like strong powerful people can be the nicest people because they don't have to be nice They're being nice cuz they want to be nice M there's a lot of weak feeble men that pretend that they're nice but really what they are is just vulnerable They're they have to be nice cuz they don't have any choice Like if you you and if they were in a position of not having to then they would they would drop the nice act And that's what happens They're some of the creepiest [ __ ] people when they have power is like really weak men They're some of the scariest people and they're the scariest people as politicians They're just really weak men that all of a sudden have power I'm going to [ __ ] show you Like having real power is to be kind when you don't have to be kind You know what I love about being a woman though what that I do think is a genuine thing and a genuine difference is it's easier for me to be nurturing um in the sense that like no one would bat an eye if I saw a kid who was like I couldn't figure out where their mom was and I were to approach them and say come here honey let me help you as a man like do you second like I know that like my husband has told me this that like he secondguesses like hanging out at you know with the kids at the at the park because someone might think that he's a pedophile Oh that's crazy Hanging out with his kids Yeah cuz like if you're just like a a guy sitting on a bench and your kids are playing like how does anyone know that you aren't just a guy i think he's really overthinking things Like of course you're a [ __ ] dad at the park That's crazy You see other dads at the park You say hi Like it's like you're not a pedophile Those are my kids Which How old's your kid like it's normal I've taken my kids to parks a thousand times You've never felt in some way that your masculinity inhibited your ability like your your instinct to be like nurturing and affectionate no No I think that's a weakness Like if you can't be nurturing and affectionate because you think you're masculine that's crazy That's just weak That's that's nuts That's like a distortion of what strength means Like that's not that's not strong That's weak Like why can't you be nice like why can't you be like the idea that if you're nice and you're affectionate you're kind that you're weak That's crazy That's crazy Especially if you have options Like if you if you don't have to be nice and you're nice like that's real niceness Like it's pure Like you don't have to be you don't have to be a nice person but you're nice because it's a good thing to do Like that it's the right way to do it Okay Okay So what's so great about being a guy everything It's awesome We [ __ ] build everything We run the world It's great I don't know I I I am a guy I mean I would And yet like all comes down to trying to like get the attention of some lady That is all No I already have the attention of a lady I'm good I'm still love being a guy It's only you know it's not like that's the primary motivation No What is the primary motivation fun Fun Fun Yeah life is fun Life should be fun Sounds pretty great It should be fun if you pursue it correctly There's a lot of stuff to do A lot of stuff to do That's interesting That's why when I hear people say "I'm bored." Like I don't even understand you I don't even get it How the [ __ ] are you be bored i wish I had 50 lives to live simultaneously I would do a bunch of different things I would have a bunch of different jobs I was always there like so many different things that I'd love to do Aren't people sometimes beholden to doing things that they don't want to do just because they have to make bills or they have to But that's all choices that you make too And unfortunately these choices sort of they cascade you know you could find yourself motivated by the wrong things and doing things for the wrong reasons like doing things just for money and just for this or just for that And I've done that before I I know it But then you have to realize like what you're doing and not and and stay focused on the prize Yeah Take the steps to not want to do that anymore you know But you know it's like you people there's people listening to this right now like "Oh that's easy for you to say because I have to do this and I have to do that." That's true But you can do things to better your life with your free time Go open your phone right now and look at your screen time Okay Now I understand the screen time is 10 minutes here 20 minutes there 5 minutes here 5 minutes there But that screen time it's probably about five hours which is crazy That's five hours you could have been improving your life That's five hours you could have been doing something different That's five hours you could have went to the gym That's five hours you could have eaten better You could have taken steps to have better food in your house That you could have taken steps to pursue a career or move in the direction of pursuing something that's different than what you're doing that you would actually find satisfying and and fulfilling You just have to decide what are you doing with your time and you know and this goes back to people commenting and and bitching at people online Well that's what you're doing If if if you're distracting yourself by doing a bunch of [ __ ] that's just worthless and it is worthless and easy maybe and easy and very easy Yeah It's cuz you need discipline You need to figure out what do what do you really want to do with your life and what makes you feel better Do you feel like you are innately disciplined no H no I've learned that Okay I've developed that Yeah That's not No one's innately disciplined No I don't think that's real I think we look at people that are disciplined like "Oh it must be easy for them You're just born with that gene." No that's not real No you recognize the value of discipline and the rewards You reap the rewards and then you like it and so you keep doing it You keep pursuing it H I'm just curious about like brain chemistry because when I think about you know you've been very complimentary uh towards me in this conversation but a part of me is wondering am I just lucky that I have the kind of internal chemistry that I have that makes me value the things that I value and you know I'm just doing what I feel compelled to do and I'm curious when people feel compelled to do otherwise and I don't know where to place um responsibility for that Do you know what I mean well you you wouldn't know unless you are them You could look to your own life to times where you haven't lived in an exemplary way or or done things where you're helping yourself and done things in fact that are actually sabotaging your life Mhm And you can correct them yourself but it's very hard I mean you would have to be a [ __ ] counselor that would have ultimate truth access to a person's thought processes to really find out why they're doing things differently why why they're not living in a way The only thing you could do is live by example You know there's a um a term for a taekwondo instructor It's called a sabom nim and it's one who lives by example And that's what you have to do You have to you have to live by example like live like someone's watching Yes Li this is what I tell people and I've I've said this for years You want to have a successful life If you want to live your life like there's a documentary crew around you filming your everyday life and that you want people to be impressed with you Do it when no one's watching Do it when no one's watching I think about that when I work out I think I think about that Yeah If people were judging me and they were watching me right now and they would what what what would you think yeah I and I now I'm wondering if like that's one of those weird silver linings to this whole experience is that my life became very very public very early and so I literally do have to walk around living my life as if there is potentially a documentary crew following me around Yeah I think that is I think that's real I think that's the gift that I have gotten by being famous That I have to live publicly And if I didn't like if I was just some [ __ ] tyrant that no one knew you know and I just had all this wealth and power and no one knew me and I could just get away with being an [ __ ] right yeah I think the the most wealthy and the most powerful do not want fame because with fame comes accountability Yeah But that's good That's good Even the haters are good you know And then the people that defend the the defend you against the haters that's good too It's all good So everyone's just working this out together publicly you know and they're doing it through different vessels and sometimes they do it through other people They're doing it through me and they're doing it through you Would you wish fame on anyone no No No No No No No No You can't handle it Yeah No But you can handle it I mean but most people can't handle it It breaks people That's why people can't have it when they're young The worst thing you do to a child is make them famous The worst thing I mean look at there's countless examples I've I've talked to so many of them on the podcast They're all broken Yeah Like who who have you talked to i'm curious Kulkin Miley Cyrus He's doing much better now isn't he he's great Yeah he's great I mean he's as great as you can be to be super famous when you're six Oh god I'm friends with Ricky Schroeder Um you know uh I've had a bunch of them on a bunch of people on that were famous when they're young and they all are missing something It's like when you're making cement and you don't add enough water There's like something that happens when you have fame and agilation during your de developmental stages as a child when you're supposed to be like figuring out how do I get people to like me like what what is it about you know and there is that is that is that developmental stage when like your your brain chemistry is being configured for the rest of your life like that that is scary You want to you want to put that brain chemistry uh coagulation into the in the right configuration in the right set of circumstances or else you're going to be having a complex for the rest of your life that you're going to be grappling with because I don't know if you can undo the stuff that you that gets ingrained in your brain chemistry when you're a kid Like I don't know [ __ ] I don't know anything I don't know [ __ ] all about brains but like it seems to me that like especially developmentally when your brain hasn't configured yet that's when you get hardwired to have complexes the rest of your life that you're going to be dealing with 100% And if your brain is formulated with extreme agilation and love for no [ __ ] reason just because you're a cute kid but you're a cute kid in front of the whole world in Home Alone That's nuts That's nuts Yeah I mean he's a very thoughtful person and he's come through it I mean I really enjoyed talking to him He's a really nice guy Does he regret being in the Home Alone movies boy that's a good question I'd have to ask him I don't know I mean I don't know you know cuz I mean you know you can look back I don't even know how much of a choice that was for him How many how much can you choose anything when you're six how could you choose but like so in a way it was a thing that happened to him that he didn't really have control over right and does he look back on that and go would I would I give up that like if I could get that life back would I have a different life i'm curious what he would say Well he most certainly would have a different life Yeah Yeah Um would it be better i don't know You know but I don't know anybody that's again gone through that that's air quotes whole at the end of it you know I just think that there's also this weird thing where you become the provider for the family which is very strange child Yeah And then you have this parasitic relationship that your parents have to you which is I have friends that were famous as as young people and they have these very [ __ ] up complicated relationships with their parents One of my friends where they found out their parents stole from them millions of dollars Yeah And then you have to grapple with that as you're an adult These monsters you know they they used you as an ATM machine and they stopped working and they became your quote unquote manager Really just pushing you out there to try to siphon money off of you [ __ ] a [ __ ] a Yeah Yeah But I got fame in a a slow drip I got slow doses like like snake venom You get a little bit of snake venom If you get one big bite from a cobra you're [ __ ] You know that's what I got Yeah So well you're strong So here I am But you're strong You came through it on the other side A very durable person you know and I think there's you know it's a trial by fire and you went through it I mean you know that's what you know that's what they do in boot camp you know you you go through something very difficult to be strong at the end And you don't become strong just wake up one day I'm strong No you have to go through some [ __ ] you know and that going through some [ __ ] when you're a kid as becoming famous is different than going through like hardship as a child I know a lot of children that went through hardship Like all my friends that are interesting all had horrible childhoods All of them All my most fascinating friends I'm so grateful that I did not have a [ __ ] up childhood Well that's probably what prepared you or helped you Indeed I feel like if I had gone through this experience after having a [ __ ] up childhood I would be a psychopath today right so thank God I had a good childhood Yes Yeah I didn't have a bad childhood I had a complex childhood but it wasn't bad You know my mother and my stepfather are very nice people there It wasn't bad but it was [ __ ] up It was moved around a lot Didn't have a lot of friends got bullied a lot of different things Okay But wasn't the worst you know nothing horrible happened to me you know So it's like the the trials can't be too hard They can't break you They have to be just enough so that you gain some strength and you rebuild And if they do break you then it's a very difficult task of rebuilding And people that have gone through horrible childhood trauma particularly abuse and sexual abuse that they have the most difficult hurdles to overcome I agree I think in in large part because how do you trust like I think rebuilding your life relies upon like upon rebuilding yourself in the context of other human beings and how do you do that when you can't trust anyone it's true But I do know some people that have gone through childhood sexual trauma that are also incredibly fascinating people because they they they've figured out a way to acquire strength through it all But what about trust and that's the other thing I was going to say And then they've also figured out a way to well they're also very skeptical of people and rightly so But that's a good thing because a lot of people don't have your intentions in mind Especially if you're a woman right if you're a woman everybody's bullshitting you to try to get in your pants Like it's like it's constant bullshitting you know so you have to figure out well who's actually bullshitting me and who's just being nice and who's being nice but kind of bullshitting just slowly playing this game You ever heard of the the definition of a gentleman no It's a patient wolf Okay Yeah All right Yeah And then ultimately the prey sort of acknowledges yeah here you are You're getting into my pants in the end but because you've been the most patient the most impressively patient of all Yeah You've done the dance correctly You put your feathers out like a good peacock Yeah I like that I like that dance Yes Yeah Well that's the thing is like women are designed to like that dance right because this person has shown you the respect of not just trying to use their physical force and take take it from you and not care about you as a person They've chosen to acknowledge you as a person like this is what this person wants They want to feel comfortable with me But then you can't be a sociopath too It has to be genuine You have to genuinely like this person So you know for a woman to feel safe right like how do you you and then that's you got to go through a lot of trial and error with that too You have to figure out like why' that relationship fall apart oh that was a piece of [ __ ] Like why' that one fall apart oh she was a psycho like recognize like what what do you actually like is it just that they're hot this is the thing Like I've had a bunch of friends that just married hot people and then you know you going through divorce and it's all chaos You can't just [ __ ] marry hot people Like just cuz they're hot and they're sexy and they turn you on Like that's just genes Like you got to you got to understand like there's a personality involved And then there's also like when you're hot you have ultimate power You have the Willy Wonka golden ticket Like everybody's stumbling at their feet to try to like open doors for you and be nice to you put you in prison Yeah Open a certain kind of door I mean we all forever Yeah It's um It's [ __ ] It's flirting It was flirting in the end That's all it was Yeah Being a person's [ __ ] weird you know it's really weird It's really weird and it's temporary It's like you're always looking at that [ __ ] hourglass just sands running out you know and like what am I doing why am I doing it what's this about what do I like what do what don't and then you can get overwhelmed with the like existential angst Just what's the point of it all yeah Well you have to find a point You have to like what is man's search for meaning like what is it what are we doing i don't know Well that's a subtitle of my book My Search My Search for Meaning Oh my god It is right there in cursive If you can still read cursive some people can't anymore Is that your actual handwriting no I wanted it to be my actual handwriting but is it [ __ ] they were like "This looks so much more pretty." I You could have made it that pretty I do have great handwriting man What the [ __ ] it's close Might as well It is odd Yeah the the search for meaning Search for meaning is very odd And you know and you could especially when there's no inherent meaning You just have to make it up I think I mean it means something to you If it means something to you it's inherent It's real If it means something to you if you actually care it means something Like what's the point of it all if you're going to die someday and who knows what happens when you die And then then there's the the real fatalistic thing When you die it's over It's just black and emptiness and then just shut off like "Okay so you're still alive bitch." Okay you got to figure out what you're doing with your day-to-day Do you enjoy your dayto-day if not why do some people How come some people enjoy their life why don't you like what is man's search for meaning enjoy your [ __ ] life Enjoy this life You can it's possible Can be done And I think living by example shows other people that it can be done And then being like really honest about it like what is what are what are the steps what's the struggles like how do you do it yeah that's actually been a really sort of fun takeaway that I've had from having just an Instagram is like I'll post a silly video of me dancing for my kids and a lot of the comments are just people being like I'm so glad that someone like you can be happy Yeah You know it's like thank God someone like you can be happy And I'm like yeah someone like me can be happy That means you can be happy too It's possible to be happy Yeah But you know when you're a 500B person and you want to be thin that's a long road It's not going to come quickly And if you're a severely depressed very unhappy person with a disaster of a life It's not going to turn around overnight That's a battleship It takes a long time to turn that [ __ ] around and get it facing the other direction And and the motivation has to be that you have to see some kernel of opportunity embedded within that darkness because otherwise like where what how do you even know what direction to go towards and you have to be enjoying the process You have to figure out a way to enjoy the process of improvement and and to even though it's hard Yes And because it's hard hard can be fun Yeah Yeah You have to enjoy the hard and that's why voluntary adversity is so important You have to force yourself to do hard things so that you can do hard things no matter what If I do what's pump up remixes someone you got to get motivated somehow Yeah that's true That's true Although David Gogggins doesn't listen to music because he thinks it's cheating Really yeah He gets all his motivation internal He's like external motivation is cheating He's a [ __ ] complete psycho you know But he's like I need a good soundtrack when I'm running But that's the spectrum you know the spectrum of discipline you know Yeah That's what he's doing That's what he's doing That's what he's doing all day long for no goal other than like I talked to him about it He's like I'm in the lab every day downloaded information Like whoa cool dude You're in the matrix There's a there's a crazy video of him um working out with my friend Israel Adosana Israel Assagna is the former UFC middleweight champion of the world one of the greatest fighters that ever lived And he is working out with David Gogggins and he can't keep up with him And David Gog is just breaking him and he's throwing up in garbage cans and David is putting him through his workout and it's one of three workouts that David does in a day and he's like this incredibly fit world champion fighter Is he distracting himself i don't know You have to talk to him You have to dig into that brain You have to dig into that That's a very unusual brain But he was 300 lb and fat at one point in his time And in and become his purpose That's his meaning right that makes sense That's his meaning That's why he says he's like I'm he goes I'm downloading knowledge Like every time he's like pushing himself past the limits that he thinks he's capable of further and further he's downloading more understanding of himself That's We should work out some time by the way I think that would be fun I I only studied I only studied fighting when I first got back out of prison because I was getting a bunch of death threats So I did Krav Magaw and it was a lot a lot of it was just learning how to scream Um yeah well the first like my Krav Maga instructors because they were instructing me on a specific for a specific reason It wasn't just to work out Their first thing that they taught me was how to scream Just to like without without holding back the the the amount like I was surprised and and they were telling me people don't want to take up space and take and make noise Like we're we're taught from a very young age especially women to not do that And so you have to in the first the first lesson was make noise take up space M And and so we just practiced like screaming as loud and as hard and as long as we could And then once we got through that then we started doing the fighting moves And the first thing I had to do before I did anything was scream first then move Scream move And so that the screaming became part of the uh the movement So it would it would trigger so I wouldn't have to think about it If it ever came down to it and someone actually attacked me I wouldn't have to think scream I would just scream Croft McGaw is legit It gets uh criticized a lot Does it whatever Yeah By martial artists Why well because it's a combinatory martial art So it combines a bunch of different things together So it's essentially like a jack of all trades What's wrong with that there's nothing wrong with that Oh okay No no there's nothing wrong with that It's like only being into purebred dogs Like what what's up with that well no It's like is it effective right like there's no Krav Magaw artists that have gone on to dominate in the UFC Oh interesting Yeah I didn't know that But it kind of you could kind of say that mixed martial arts in a sense is essentially the roots of Krab magga because it's taking the best aspects of various martial arts and training them Yeah How is it different well the thing is is that if you are training for self-defense okay you're training to defend yourself in against an attacker the the true in my personal opinion the true best way to learn how to fight is to learn how to prepare yourself for trained killers Not the average person Really yes Like how often are you going to encounter trained killers it doesn't matter You should be prepared for train killers because you could run into a trained killer and if you try to do some crab mag nonsense on me I'm going to [ __ ] strangle you You can't defend yourself against someone who actually knows how to fight Okay here's a question Can I ever actually defend myself against someone like you no Not against someone like me What's the [ __ ] point because you could defend yourself against someone who doesn't know how to fight as good as me But the odds of someone like me attacking you are very very very very small I should train to be able to you know to fight against trained killers But yes defend yourself But jiu-jitsu you can jiu-jitsu you could defend yourself You're you're not going to the way you would be able to beat me as if I was untrained The I have too many advantages But also I don't have advantages if someone's bigger than me and just as well trained as me right or more well trained than I am better than me That I don't I'm I'm not going to beat you know the UFC heavyweight champion Like I'm I'm not going to win It's not not possible I don't care how long I do martial art You can avoid dying by them No No Okay They'll just murder you No I can't No No I'm I'm completely vulnerable Okay great As an expert martial artist with three black belts I'm completely vulnerable Yeah That's reality That's physics That's I mean it's like you against an elephant Who's going to win exactly Exactly That's the 100 men versus a gorilla Yeah Obviously the gorilla would win Who ever thought the gorilla would lose retards Men who have never seen a gorilla Men who think they could fight better than they can which is most men Why who who ever brought up that as even a thought experiment i don't know But it's funny that it's like viral in 2025 I thought we would have worked that out in the 50s The fact that I feel like people just don't remember what animals are like We're so out of touch with animals They don't even know what an animal is They have no idea People know what their dog is They have no idea what an animal is An actual real animal And also your own dog could [ __ ] you up if you want if it wanted to It just doesn't want to Exactly Yeah Well unless you have a little dog I'll [ __ ] up a Chihuahua Yeah but my dog Marshall he's a golden retriever He's the sweetest dog on the planet But if he he could probably kill me if he want He just doesn't know you know right and he would never think to But like but if like a rat was trying to attack you he'd be [ __ ] terrified Or if he got infected by rabies right you know like and lost his mind like right ciao It'd be a real problem Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean there's there's the reality But if you're training to defeat a trained killer you're going to be way better off than if you're training to defeat someone who's going to lunge at you this way and you're going to block that and hit him here and hit him there and like but don't you fight differently against a trained killer versus like some dude who's like drunk the right way to fight is the right way to fight Period Whether it's some drunk dude if if some drunk dude tries to take a swing at me I'm not going to think "Oh he's a drunk dude I shouldn't avoid this punch I should do something different." No it's like it's it's all the language So martial arts is essentially like a language And some people only know a couple of words and some people can eloquently recite Shakespeare at the drop of a hat Sure And that's the difference between an expert and someone who doesn't really know what they're doing and most people don't know what they're doing when it comes to martial arts If you're preparing for someone who doesn't know what they're doing that's not the right way to do it The right way to do it is to prepare for someone who knows what they're doing Now this is very different when we're talking about like women's self-defense versus just you know uh like a a a grown man who is of normal size defending himself against another grown man of normal size A fair fight Yeah a fair fight But in a fair fight you should be preparing to fight against a trained killer If you are a person who just only trains in self-defense tactics like someone comes at me I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that Good luck doing that to someone who knows how to fight Good luck Cuz they're going to recognize all of your movements in advance You're going to go like this and they're going to go "Oh well his right arm is coming this way so I'm just going to step this way and I'm going to avoid that." And I see his left foot step backwards Well now his right leg is vulnerable so I'm going to kick it Like it's it's like it's language It's understanding the flow of body dynamics and movement And it's happening so quickly that the only way that you can actually be effective is if you're fluent and you don't have to think about it You don't think about it It's when you're training it's like you very rarely think "Oh now I'm going to do this." It's like opportunities open themselves up especially in striking striking is something that you you do where you're you're doing these techniques so often that as things happen you're just responding in a trained way Your mind and your neurosystem is is like completely trained for these actions and these movements Do you think that fighting and you know fighting your friends like not like actual like fighting for your life but fighting for your friends is a crucial part of brain development because I know that I've heard or at least I've read that roughousing with small kids is a really important part of their brain development and and the the people who become more um well adapted well adjusted emotionally just they seem to be more fit emotionally were kids who had some roughousing when they were when they were young especially with their parents Is that is that like an elevated form of roughousing part of a human being's cognitive development well I think physical altercations are a normal part of human existence that have exist It's been going on since the beginning of time and to no understanding or no knowledge of it and no experience with it at all cuz I'm not like I'm not a fighter I don't like I've never got into a physical fight with anyone Good Is that good is that good i haven't either other than ones on purpose Right Okay Like I'm not I don't get in street fights I don't I've never got I haven't been in a fist fight since I was a kid I just They were all martial arts fights Okay I I you know and I just think for for men being vulnerable is not good It's just not good to not know how to defend yourself It just it leaves you with this deep insecurity And that's why you see men that don't know how to fight they use bravado and they puff their chest out and they yell They try to intimidate people and scare people It's just posturing It's just like maybe this is why I feel bad for men because I don't feel any sort of impulse to to do that to to puff up my chest and and like I don't know Maybe is it Well you shouldn't Men shouldn't either And the men that do it are generally vulnerable They're it's bullies right why Why are bullies bullies they're bullies because they're [ __ ] That's really what it is It's why they're trying to intimidate people and hurt people It's because they're they're weak It's like you like trained fighters are some of the nicest people Like people that fight in the UFC they're some of the nicest people you'll ever meet It sounds crazy Like my my friends that are all jiu-jitsu people they're nicest people They're so friendly They're so because they're not scared They're not they're not insecure They're not vulnerable all the time Most men who don't know how to defend themselves who like are really mouthy and get get loud like they're just vulnerable and that you know I have a friend and uh he has real rage problems and he doesn't know how to fight at all And he was yelling at someone in the parking lot of the comedy store once and I and I pulled him aside I go "What are you doing man?" He goes "I don't want to [ __ ] see red." And I get I go "You don't know how to defend yourself." I go "One of one of these days you're going to do that to someone who's like me but they're mean and they're going to just say "Oh here's a nice opportunity to just [ __ ] this guy up and you're going to wind up in the hospital or worse." Like don't do this Like you can't do that But like some men grow up puffing their chest out and they get away with it and they get away with it if they're loud enough or they're mean enough or they yell enough and they they you know that becomes their defense mechanism They're they get shitty with people all the time but it's that's all it is And if they don't get shitty with people publicly they get shitty with people online They get shitty they do get out there They get it out that way But it's all just weakness That's all it is It's just like you're vulnerable and just don't be vulnerable Figure out figure out a way to not be vulnerable I got into martial arts because I was getting bullied and I didn't I just didn't I was always scared of altercations Like I hate this feeling So I was like "Okay I'm going to become what I'm terrified of." Okay I guess my one sort of poke back at that though is I find it interesting that you you you frame vulnerability in in such a negative way Physical vulnerability is negative Yeah But I I think the thing that I'm sort of thinking about is how it doesn't matter really how strong you are or capable you are We all are still utterly vulnerable and well sure And so I guess like but what can you control fair You can control some aspect of that Like you can't control guns right if you if someone has a gun you're vulnerable I don't care who you are You could be Superman Well not Superman He's bulletproof But you could be you know UFC heavyweight champion You're still vulnerable to a gun One little kid can kill you Bang You're dead Yeah But how much can you control you can control some of it So is the idea like oh you can't control any of it so why control at all why do anything why why be strong well I guess no I guess my my thing is um for me it's it's less about like prepare like positioning myself to not get hurt And it's more for me my big sort of like training that I attempt to do is how do I how do I get up when I am inevitably hurt So I I I understand that life is going to hurt me and I don't know how life is going to hurt me So there's like a million different ways that I can be hurt It might be that I'm physically assaulted It might be some other thing and knowing that I can't prepare for all of the ways that I am vulnerable to existence Instead I try to think okay I am vulnerable to existence and I am going to get hurt How do I not be broken by the hurt and how do I I don't know maybe I'm I'm I'm treating the inevitable pain of life as that as that training to get strong It's just kind of like I I almost don't seek out pain because I've had enough pain come at me Is that does that make sense i don't know What What do you mean by seek out pain though well you you were talking about like uh voluntary adversity Yes Right And like to an extent I agree with you because that's a very stoic thing to do to seek out challenges so that you can you can test yourself and test your metal and push yourself to become better for the inevitable things that might happen Your but not even just for the inevitable things that happen just for your own for the sake just for you as a human to achieve balance You're we're all vulnerable There's no invulnerable people We're all going to die We all are made of flesh and bone and we're all weak right there's no invulnerable humans but you can be less vulnerable and you should probably optimize that especially as a man I think cuz it with without it comes a lot of weird insecurities that are not comfortable and they can trip you up in all sorts of aspects of your life I think maybe this is another like woman man thing maybe where like women have to accept vulnerability as like an inescapable aspect of our lives even just in our interpersonal relationships Like I know that when I walk into the room I'm not the one who's going to win a fight That's for sure Right Um and so knowing that I I feel like I sure I I I prepare myself in the ways that I can right and I and I'm strong in the ways that I can but like I don't think about vulnerability in negative terms cuz I've also found that once you've been once you've been once you've been forced to reckon with your own vulnerability that is when you find your strength So I don't know I I see them as talking about different things Yeah Yeah I think physical vulner look I think there's certain there's certain roles that males and females ultimately play that are unavoidable and one of them is when your husband went downstairs to protect you right there's a reason why I wasn't the one who did that yeah ultimately right in that situation if you are less vulnerable as a man it's a good thing If someone breaks into my house and they're a normalsized person without a weapon I'm not scared of them You know I'm I'm scared this crazy person is in my house I'm scared that they might have a weapon But if I realize that they don't have a weapon and they they're physically threatening I have a massive advantage It's up to me whether or not they die It's my choice And that's better That is better That's better than you getting beat to death by some schizophrenic who breaks into your house because you don't know how to defend yourself Fair And you panic and you start flailing and you hyperventilate You don't know what to do Yeah That's not good No it's not That's all I'm saying I mean we're all vulnerable It's it's part of what you're doing when you're working out really hard is to try to increase the strength and decrease the vulnerability You're trying to increase your resolve to push through difficult things increase your your your character and your will You're trying to fortify yourself And they're also trying and that's not bad to fortify It's all positive It's all positive you know but it gets labeled as negative because there's a lot of things that get attached to it like jocks and bullies and [ __ ] and and aggressive men and shitty men who then who think themselves superior to people who are more vulnerable Exactly Instead of just being nice because you know you can kill everybody in the room Just be nice Like that's the real nice person is the person who can kill everybody and he doesn't want to you know the the really shitty people are the ones that would act on that And sometimes you'll run into those And it's better to be prepared That's that's all it is with like physical vulnerability But what you're talking about like psychic vulnerability and not wanting to go through pain because you've been through so much Of course Yeah Look ideally we should go through zero pain Ideally we should go through zero aggression zero shitty deceptive conniving psycho people that are trying to ruin everything in your life Ideally yeah ideally you shouldn't have to prepare for that You shouldn't interact with those people Ideally and again I'm also like speaking at counterpurposes with myself because I did the exact opposite thing with my prosecutor I didn't have to talk to him I didn't have to have an a conversation with him that was difficult and awkward and and hard and forced me to confront all of this pain And I did because I knew that there was value in that Like so yeah we we seek comfort always and we avoid pain Yeah But I don't know maybe I'm a masochist because I always feel like there's something to gain from pain because you've gained so much from your pain and you kind of must know that you are who you are You know you're kind of an extraordinary person and you've gone through a lot to become that person You don't just wake up and have this perspective that you have You have to go through a lot of [ __ ] You know what's [ __ ] up though what i trust pain more than I trust joy Because when I'm going through something painful I know what that is and I know how to confront it When I'm going through joy I'm afraid that something bad is going to happen to me That happens to people where they self- sabotage you know i mean I don't know I was having a great time in Peruia and then everything just went really bad out of nowhere And so like I don't know Like a part of me is like always is trying to see like the the yin-yang of it all Like the the the good that's embedded in the bad but then afraid of the bad that's embedded in the good Like that's I'm that's what and you know and that's a reality like you know the more that you now that I have the privilege of being a mom I know that one day you know like if something were to happen my to my kids I would be all the more [ __ ] de like all the more pain in my life Like if I never had kids I wouldn't have I wouldn't have the opportunity to experience a potential pain that would be utterly devastating And so like that's that's where that play goes in my head And I just wonder if it's a trauma response where like I'm afraid of good things happening I'm sure part of it has got to be a trauma response I mean I think a lot of people that self-sabotage when things start going well in their life it's because they're used to things going badly And this idea of things going well this it just scares the [ __ ] out of them It's the unknown And it's the pain that might come with it falling apart The pain that might come with you hang all your hopes and dreams on wow things really actually are better and then they're not Like [ __ ] So you want it to fall apart so that you could achieve some level of comfort in the understanding of this state that you've been in many times before the state of failure I need to get rid of that I need to I need to lose this Yeah But you're aware of it which is the first step you know i don't think you're embracing it You know clearly you're not You're writing books You're here You got the Hulu series You got a lot going on It's like it's not going Yeah It's not like you still just a little bit like looking over my shoulder like coming at me Imagine if you didn't That would be crazy after all that you've been through Imagine if you didn't think like that you know it's understandable More than understandable you know Yeah That whole like lightning doesn't strike the same place twice and it's like it can It can It can tell that to someone who's been struck by [ __ ] lightning Yeah I Yeah You know it's possible You can't think It's the fear of the unknown and the fear of the possibilities can really [ __ ] you It really can I'm trying not to let it do that to me You're doing a great job Thanks You really are Yeah Working on it But again it's it's a struggle And this is important for people to hear It's not like it's just like every day like it's it's hard Life is hard Even a guy like Gogggins you know he told me and he goes "Sometimes I stare at my [ __ ] shoes for like 30 minutes before I put those [ __ ] on." He goes because he's like "I don't want to do this I don't want to do this." But he knows he's going to do this He goes "But I put them on." Well good on him It's not easy Life is not easy but it's worth living It's worth doing It really is Does he put those shoes on because he knows that ultimately he's going to be glad that he did it if you ask him he's like "Because I'm not a bitch." Okay Well because but that is what it is Yeah He's ultimately going to be glad that he's he's still got the strength and that strength needs to be watered every day like a garden It's not like you just have it now You have it for life No you have to you have to keep at it You can Everybody could slide Everybody could slide back It's true Yeah As much as we can improve ourselves we can Yeah Not It's not easy It's not easy being a person but it's worth doing Yeah Yeah And you could do it And everybody could do it You could do it better than you're doing it I could do it better than I'm doing it I'm trying And you could do it better than all of us I'm so grumpy sometimes It's like so unnecessary Unnecessary Avoidable But it's good It's good to you know struggle's good It's good All of it's good It's all We're on the path you know But this is like this all this this all this this idea that you should know better by now That's also silly cuz I know 80-year-old fools No everyone If there's anything I've learned from being a mom it's that everyone every human being is a toddler Every single person is a toddler who either hasn't gotten enough attention or hasn't had their nap whatever the [ __ ] and they're just having a tantrum Like that is and if you treat everyone like a toddler it is actually a very successful way of interacting with people Yeah Yeah Like it's true That is the lesson of parenthood right yeah I I I talk about that all the time that uh I started looking at people as like babies that grew up instead of looking at them like "Oh this is Mike He's 35." Like no Mike was a baby Like how'd Mike become so [ __ ] up well Mike got a lot of bad information a lot of bad experiences and he still is a baby He still has the same needs that he did as a kid They're just more sophisticated now But ultimately they all derive down to these same things Do you need a change of situation do you need some attention do you need to sleep on it like what you know whatever's going on Like just if you can identify those like basic human needs and address and just tweak their circumstances you can change a person's life And also recognize that if you ignore those basic human needs over and over they're going to compound and you're going to have more problems And they're going to lose their [ __ ] in the middle of the grocery store Amanda I really enjoy talking to you again Thank you very much Really appreciate you And your book is out now Amanda Knox free my search for meaning Yeah If anyone wants to reach out I'm at amandox.com It's pretty easy Okay Thank you for being here Appreciate you Thank you It's a lot of fun Bye everybody Bye